The Irish language

Hector Savage

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

No problem with the language myself. Anybody who wants to learn it is welcome to it & more power to them.

On the other hand I'm utterly disgusted by the way the language is thought in schools, the funding it sucks up, & the dogmatic nature of some of it's supporters.

^^ Sums it up perfectly.

Another thing they need to do is make it optional for the leaving cert at least, it would actually make the language stronger cos those that want to learn it, will be in a much better environment to do so.

Agricola

My abiding memory of learning languages in school was that French seemed fun and interesting and Irish was the exact opposite. Even though we probably spent as much time in French learning verbs and all the nuts and bolts of the language, it feels like we mostly learned how to do conversational stuff and how to be able to get by as an exchange student or tourist. A lot of it was about asking directions to the train station, reading menus, etc etc. In 1990's Ireland, it was all very exotic.

Whereas with Irish, probably like many others, we had a dried up old prune who had been waaaaay too long teaching teenagers, despised her job, never smiled and made learning as confrontational and horrible as possible. To compound this the curriculum seemed to be about the most tiresome aspects of Irish culture. We were passed the Peig days by that stage, but it was still very tedious stuff for the most part.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah look, that oul' lazy chestnut gets wheeled out fairly regularly.




Most people who go through secondary school learn a European language.


Fuck all practical use it ever is to them




Doesn't make learning it a waste of time though




And coding me hole. Waste of time unless you're going to work at something that needs it. Handy to have a rudimentary knowledge for some roles but otherwise it doesn't add a whole lot practically. It's still good to learn it though even if you don't use it. Same as the Irish language

Up to the student to choose. If they know they want to move to France, let them do French instead of Irish. If they want to go into IT and computer programming, let them code instead of learning Irish. If they want to feel more connected to their nationality and have an interest in the langauge, let them do Irish instead of French or coding.

I really don't see what the problem is.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jimbobaloobob wrote: »

How is it taught in schools?

That a serious question or did you not grow up here...?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the later: it's taught as a school subject, by rote and with too much emphasis on stories and poems, and not as a language with emphasis on communication and conversation. Consequently, people learn it for the sole reason of enhancing their chances of a particular third level course (which will, more often than not, have anything to do with the language) and many drop all interest or care for it upon achieving said goal.

ancapailldorcha

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I really don't see what the problem is.

Public sector unions and special interests. Look at the protests of 2011 when Fine Gael tried to making it optional for the Leaving Cert.

Making it optional means that it has to entice students into learning it by upping their game or they can go somewhere else. Unfortunately, many teachers are so incompetent that they are incapable of this so entrenching themselves is their best response at the expense of students, taxpayers and the language itself.

Hotblack Desiato

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Public sector unions and special interests. Look at the protests of 2011 when Fine Gael tried to making it optional for the Leaving Cert.

Same thing is happening right now with religion. They're terrified that large numbers of students will opt out if they can do another subject instead.

whisky_galore

Cato the Elder wrote: »

How? If you want to learn Spanish, you can go study it taught with modern methods. Same with any other language.
Even if I wanted to, in what class could I have other learners to practice conversations with, the way it should be done?


Furthermore, I consider that Carthage must be destroyed.

If they are anyway serious they can get off their arses and do a bit of research.

People want to retain this language and all they can do is lapse into learned helplessness at the mere idea of breaking a sweat learning or relearning it themselves.

It really is pathetic.

Franz Von Peppercorn

TheDavester wrote: »

rather the time would be spent on useful languages (or classes e.g. Coding) in the real world, ie Spanish/French/german/even Chinese

Education isn’t the same as training though.

mcmoustache

jimbobaloobob wrote: »

How is it taught in schools?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That a serious question or did you not grow up here...?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the later: it's taught as a school subject, by rote and with too much emphasis on stories and poems, and not as a language with emphasis on communication and conversation. Consequently, people learn it for the sole reason of enhancing their chances of a particular third level course (which will, more often than not, have anything to do with the language) and many drop all interest or care for it upon achieving said goal.

I was actually wondering the same thing. Growing up in Connemara, it was taught in more or less the same way that English was - grammar, comprehension, poems and literature etc.

I presume it doesn't work that way in English-language schools?

Edgarfrndly

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

So Sean Gallagher should be practically fluent at this stage seeing as how he's been leaning it for the last seven years ?

https://www.rte.ie/news/presidential-election/2018/1005/1001202-election-bites/

I don't know. It's not the time you spend, but what you do with that time. I'm not sure what he was doing to learn it or practice it.

You could sit in classes for a year and learn nothing. I've seen people come and go over the years who have improved leaps and bounds within even a few months.

The first few weeks they are timid and just listen rather than engage in discussion, but after a few months they engage a lot more.

Immersion is key. You really need to just build up confidence using it. That's all.

Donald Trump

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Up to the student to choose. If they know they want to move to France, let them do French instead of Irish. If they want to go into IT and computer programming, let them code instead of learning Irish. If they want to feel more connected to their nationality and have an interest in the langauge, let them do Irish instead of French or coding.

I really don't see what the problem is.

It's quite simple really
The state has an obligation and responsibility to provide a decent and broad education for children.



That doesn't mean that it has to provide a bespoke set of choices that can change on a daily basis on the whims of a 12 year old.


The state sets a curriculum. Then it implements it. Should there be mandatory subjects on it? I would strongly say "yes". Most rational people would say "of course".



Your idealistic model of allowing each and every child to set their own choices of what they want to study is scutter.

Donald Trump

Agricola wrote: »

My abiding memory of learning languages in school was that French seemed fun and interesting and Irish was the exact opposite. Even though we probably spent as much time in French learning verbs and all the nuts and bolts of the language, it feels like we mostly learned how to do conversational stuff and how to be able to get by as an exchange student or tourist. A lot of it was about asking directions to the train station, reading menus, etc etc. In 1990's Ireland, it was all very exotic.

Whereas with Irish, probably like many others, we had a dried up old prune who had been waaaaay too long teaching teenagers, despised her job, never smiled and made learning as confrontational and horrible as possible. To compound this the curriculum seemed to be about the most tiresome aspects of Irish culture. We were passed the Peig days by that stage, but it was still very tedious stuff for the most part.

Don't worry about it. Plenty of people like to blame others for their own limitations and failings.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

mcmoustache wrote: »

I was actually wondering the same thing. Growing up in Connemara, it was taught in more or less the same way that English was - grammar, comprehension, poems and literature etc.

I presume it doesn't work that way in English-language schools?

I presume that doesn't work anywhere.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's quite simple really
The state has an obligation and responsibility to provide a decent and broad education for children.

That doesn't mean that it has to provide a bespoke set of choices that can change on a daily basis on the whims of a 12 year old.

The state sets a curriculum. Then it implements it. Should there be mandatory subjects on it? I would strongly say "yes". Most rational people would say "of course".

Your idealistic model of allowing each and every child to set their own choices of what they want to study is scutter.

First point - yes. My point entirely.
I'm thinking more 15 rather than 12. At which point students know a bit more. And the certainly know what they don't want to learn and wht will be a waste of their time. And they state does provide choices at 12. I choose four subjects at 12. And another four at 15.
Three - generally speaking, what are the benefits to a 15 ear old student of mandatory subjects? Generally - as per your point - not with specific subjects.
Four - ad homeinum, dismissed.

Niles Crane

When we gained independence we missed out on a great opportunity to be a fully bilingual country.

From the day we got independence it should have been decreed that Irish was the Official State language and all schooling must be done through it all dealings with government departments would be thorough Irish and within a generation we'd have the entire country fluent and we'd all be able to speak Irish and English fluently today.

It was a real missed opportunity.

Donald Trump

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Four - ad homeinum, dismissed.

You might want to look up the definition of "ad homeinum" (sic)


You said that the students should be allowed to choose



I said that that model is scutter. I stand over that and you have not attempted to refute it on any practical level.




You always hear people moaning on about having to learn Irish. It's usually people whose, lets just say, choices in life might not have led them to where they thought they were entitled to be. They way they go on you'd think that if they had had an hour a week of Chinese, Spanish and Java instead of three hours of Irish that they'd have turned that D in pass level Biology to an A and gone on to cure cancer.

Noveight

Should 100% be optional for the Leaving Certificate.

Tigerandahalf

We should look at how the Welsh revived their own language. They must be doing something right.

If you ever watch the Welsh language channel s4c when a soccer or rugby match is on, they interview the players in Welsh and they are all fluent speakers. We'd struggle to find 1 or 2 to do the same.

A Scottish rugby player John Barclay played down in Wales for a club for just 3 or 4 years. On leaving to go back to Scotland he mentioned how his own kids were fluent in Welsh, having attended a Welsh speaking school.

Our only hope for the language is for Gaelscoileanna to expand further and have more and more people coming out fluent.

I do feel too much emphasis is put on the school system.

Why do we not have more clubs, social meetups and other events run through the language.

Every gaa club could look to train one grade of their kids through Irish, e.g. all u12 kids to be coached through the Irish language on a non obligatory basis with the club being funded for its efforts.

Why do we not fund art classes and other evening classes to be run through the Irish language for kids and adults. Maybe a 50/50 buy in where the system funds half and the community/individuals pay the other half.

I'd love to have the opportunity to speak the language more, but outside of formal lesson type set ups. It would be lovely to have the opportunity to do outdoor activities but through Irish, a walk in the countryside, kayaking, cycling etc.

removed2

Tá sé an teanga is go háillinn sa domhain

Donald Trump

removed2 wrote: »

Tá sé an teanga is go háillinn sa domhain

Is é

An tUasal C

removed2 wrote: »

Tá sé an teanga is go háillinn sa domhain

Donald Trump wrote: »

Is é

Gaeilge is feminine, use í.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Donald Trump wrote: »

You might want to look up the definition of "ad homeinum" (sic)


You said that the students should be allowed to choose



I said that that model is scutter. I stand over that and you have not attempted to refute it on any practical level.

And ad homeinem is an attack on the person or idea that has no intention of addrrssing the point. And as there is no attempt to address the point, there's nothing really for me to refute. Now, if you'd said why you think it was "scutter", I'd have something to refute and would gladly do so.

You always hear people moaning on about having to learn Irish. It's usually people whose, lets just say, choices in life might not have led them to where they thought they were entitled to be. They way they go on you'd think that if they had had an hour a week of Chinese, Spanish and Java instead of three hours of Irish that they'd have turned that D in pass level Biology to an A and gone on to cure cancer.

Indeed you do. But none of this addresses my post. You also missed out on even responding to points one, two and thee, below.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

First point - yes. My point entirely.
I'm thinking more 15 rather than 12. At which point students know a bit more. And the certainly know what they don't want to learn and wht will be a waste of their time. And they state does provide choices at 12. I choose four subjects at 12. And another four at 15.
Three - generally speaking, what are the benefits to a 15 ear old student of mandatory subjects? Generally - as per your point - not with specific subjects.

madbeanman

Jack Moore wrote: »

Would you like to see a refferendum on the first language of this country

I feel like I influenced the creation of this thread. Yay for debate.

Cato the Elder

whisky_galore wrote: »

If they are anyway serious they can get off their arses and do a bit of research.

People want to retain this language and all they can do is lapse into learned helplessness at the mere idea of breaking a sweat learning or relearning it themselves.

It really is pathetic.

My girlfriend is about to start Chinese lessons because it's readily available. How exactly would she go about learning Irish, since you seem more aware of this stuff? Relearning it themselves literally requires one to learn it the same awful way it was taught to all of us.


Furthermore, I consider that Carthage must be destroyed.

Donald Trump

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And ad homeinem is an attack on the person or idea that has no intention of addrrssing the point. And as there is no attempt to address the point, there's nothing really for me to refute. Now, if you'd said why you think it was "scutter", I'd have something to refute and would gladly do so.

No, - ad hominem is attacking the person rather than the idea. Playing the man rather than the ball if you will. Which I did not do. You just don't understand the meaning of the phrase.



I replied to a post which was complaining about Irish. You responded to me saying "up to the students to choose". That is not a practical or workable idea - that you base education on what the individual student wants to pick and choose.


When I was in secondary school, there were lots of subjects that I could not choose to do. Because the school did not teach them. Even where there was a choice it was constrained by the fact that different subjects were taught at the same time.





On top of that, there has to be a fundamental core curriculum that everyone studies. That is currently maths, English and Irish at LC level and a few more added in for JC. They are, and should be, mandatory.



It is very important to learn a second, or even third language. People in Ireland don't appreciate that. But almost every school has the option to allow you to take a European language if they choose to do so. Having a core mandatory language in Irish does not negate that.



In the same way that students can't just pick and choose whatever they want without constraints to suit their own particular wants, we can't just change a system to suit your own particular viewpoint. If you don't like Irish, then tough - just deal with it. That's life.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Donald Trump wrote: »

No, - ad hominem is attacking the person rather than the idea. Playing the man rather than the ball if you will. Which I did not do. You just don't understand the meaning of the phrase.

You didn't attack my idea. In fact it wasn't even 'my' idea in the first place. (For clarifiction: my idea was not to allow them to choose, it was to allow them to drop. If they want to take an extra subject so be it. If not, up to them. This is, in fact already the case, because a student can simply ignore the course content and then not show up for the exam, or show up, sign a blank paper and leave.)

Anyway: you called it a name and made no effort to state why. You didn't even play the ball. You then even asked for a rebuttal - to what?! To "scutter"?!

I replied to a post which was complaining about Irish.

Nor responsible, wasn't my post.

You responded to me saying "up to the students to choose". That is not a practical or workable idea - that you base education on what the individual student wants to pick and choose.

And yet nearly every student chooses four from seven subjects for their leaving cert...?

When I was in secondary school, there were lots of subjects that I could not choose to do. Because the school did not teach them. Even where there was a choice it was constrained by the fact that different subjects were taught at the same time.

On top of that, there has to be a fundamental core curriculum that everyone studies. That is currently maths, English and Irish at LC level and a few more added in for JC. They are, and should be, mandatory.

It is very important to learn a second, or even third language. People in Ireland don't appreciate that. But almost every school has the option to allow you to take a European language if they choose to do so. Having a core mandatory language in Irish does not negate that.

In the same way that students can't just pick and choose whatever they want without constraints to suit their own particular wants, we can't just change a system to suit your own particular viewpoint. If you don't like Irish, then tough - just deal with it. That's life.

Are you suggesting the State should choose all seven subjects for every student for the Leaving Cert? Yes or no?

If not - or even if you say "only some" - you are accepting the role of student choice as an idea. If so, how do they know better than the individual student, at the age of 15, what the student wants to do?

andekwarhola

I've hopeless Irish language skills and it should be approached in a different way in schools (and decoupled somewhat from the grasp of certain/political/sporting lobbies) but I'd hate to see the national language of the country being discarded just because it doesn't look good on a CV for job in a multinational company.

If I had some genuine time between work, family and voluntary commitments, I'd love to brush up on it and hopefully will do at some stage in my life.

jimbobaloobob

Well the way i was taught in school was fun, it was my second language and now my first

The choice is there to learn french/German and other European languages through second level and while some have a love of languages others don't.

Maybe im lucky i came through it all with an understand of all 4 languages including English and further studied them in the car as i drive.



Most people couldn't book a hotel or ask for directions in french or German so the fact they are optional hasn't made them any more popular.

Irish needs to look and more than just the language, look at it in terms of the culture, the stories, the music maybe take a more holistic approach to it.

removed2

my favourit irish word is tráthnona (afternoon/evening)
especially how they prononce it in the west, thra noona

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

removed2 wrote: »

my favourit irish word is tráthnona (afternoon/evening)
especially how they prononce it in the west, thra noona

Think I kissed a girl called trathnona once...