Do the job before you get the job

UnthoughtKnown

Has any experience with having to prove you can do the job before you get the job?

I'm getting promoted. I asked what the package was, like do I get a more senior level, raise, manager title etc. I've been told I must prove I can do the role and then that'll be discussed. This doesn't sit well with me.

They know I can do it, that's why I got the promotion.
I n my head - if you want my best, pay me like you want my best. The package would be motivation to do a good job. Trying to prove myself seems a bit like exploitation for lack of a better word.

I was thinking - if they hired externally, the new hire would get the package and then prove them self over there probation period. Should it not be similar for an internal hire?

Am I being greedy in wanting the package now?
Or is it the done thing, do the job then get the job?

Avatar MIA

UnthoughtKnown wrote: »

Has any experience with having to prove you can do the job before you get the job?

I'm getting promoted. I asked what the package was, like do I get a more senior level, raise, manager title etc. I've been told I must prove I can do the role and then that'll be discussed. This doesn't sit well with me.

They know I can do it, that's why I got the promotion.
I n my head - if you want my best, pay me like you want my best. The package would be motivation to do a good job. Trying to prove myself seems a bit like exploitation for lack of a better word.

I was thinking - if they hired externally, the new hire would get the package and then prove them self over there probation period. Should it not be similar for an internal hire?

Am I being greedy in wanting the package now?
Or is it the done thing, do the job then get the job?

The job is not guaranteed. So, they don't want you to know the salary/benefits of that role and not be at that level.

But, you play them at their own game, let them give it to someone else. That'll show 'em. :P

homosapien91

When I started my job I had to do a 6 month probation and once I passed that I was given the salary the job had advertised ( I was on slightly less for the 6 month probation ) is that not common practice for most companies

OMM 0000

There are many reasons why they might be doing this.

They may have no money.

They may not be sure about you.

There may be some HR nonsense which makes it hard to change your level etc.

But I would advise you take the promotion anyway. The alternative is to not have the opportunity.

Do a good job and I am certain it will work out for you.

Good luck!

thejaguar

It's poor form if you ask me - but not unusual. It's up to you how you play it.

1. Call their bluff - say thanks but no thanks, I'll stay where I am if you're not willing to improve the offer

2. Take the opportunity - if you know you can do the job, then go and do it. Build your CV and skillset. That's worth something to you in the long term anyway.

3. Find a middle ground - maybe you could negotiate the details now based on performance over a period of time. e.g. after 3 months you get 50% of a proposed increment, then 100% of it at 6 months.

I personally wouldn't be taking it without something concrete in terms of future benefit. If they won't even discuss it now, how will you know what you're working towards or when they'll decide you're "able".

Benildus

I'd get it in writing what 'Proving you can do the job' entails otherwise you could be paid your current package for an indeterminate amount of time whilst doing the new role

OMM 0000

Benildus wrote: »

I'd get it in writing what 'Proving you can do the job' entails otherwise you could be paid your current package for an indeterminate amount of time whilst doing the new role

Yes I agree with this.

It shouldn't be a casual arrangement. You should have written confirmation of the roles and responsibilities, timeline, etc.

TopOfTheHill

If taking the probation period I would lock it down

Have a written agreement on how long the probation lasts, what the expectations and performance indicators are and what your package will be once these are reached.

That way you get a fair chance to deliberate on whether you can do (or want) the promotion

Avatar MIA

homosapien91 wrote: »

When I started my job I had to do a 6 month probation and once I passed that I was given the salary the job had advertised ( I was on slightly less for the 6 month probation ) is that not common practice for most companies

No, I would say that's strange, unless an apprenticeship type arrangement.

UnthoughtKnown

OMM 0000 wrote: »

There are many reasons why they might be doing this.

They may have no money.

They may not be sure about you.

There may be some HR nonsense which makes it hard to change your level etc.

But I would advise you take the promotion anyway. The alternative is to not have the opportunity.

Do a good job and I am certain it will work out for you.

Good luck!

Thanks.
They have plenty of money, I can assure you
I think it may be down to the HR nonsense.

thejaguar wrote: »

1. Call their bluff - say thanks but no thanks, I'll stay where I am if you're not willing to improve the offer

I'd love to do that. Probably not the wisest move career wise, but it is definitely how I feel

thejaguar wrote: »

I personally wouldn't be taking it without something concrete in terms of future benefit. If they won't even discuss it now, how will you know what you're working towards or when they'll decide you're "able".

Benildus wrote: »

I'd get it in writing what 'Proving you can do the job' entails otherwise you could be paid your current package for an indeterminate amount of time whilst doing the new role

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Yes I agree with this.

It shouldn't be a casual arrangement. You should have written confirmation of the roles and responsibilities, timeline, etc.

TopOfTheHill wrote: »

If taking the probation period I would lock it down

Have a written agreement on how long the probation lasts, what the expectations and performance indicators are and what your package will be once these are reached.

That way you get a fair chance to deliberate on whether you can do (or want) the promotion

Yeah, I think this is the best solution. I'll get something in writing which states exactly the terms I'm willing to do the job for and also says how long a "probation period" will last. I think that's a fair compromise.

Now the issue of getting this in writing, managers are great at deciding but terrible at executing!!

Thanks for all the replies

UnthoughtKnown

homosapien91 wrote: »

When I started my job I had to do a 6 month probation and once I passed that I was given the salary the job had advertised ( I was on slightly less for the 6 month probation ) is that not common practice for most companies

I have had a good few jobs in my time and have never had this happen.

I would always have gotten full salary for the probation time, the only thing that was restricted was pension. The company won't contribute to your pension until the probation period has passed.

seamus

homosapien91 wrote: »

When I started my job I had to do a 6 month probation and once I passed that I was given the salary the job had advertised ( I was on slightly less for the 6 month probation ) is that not common practice for most companies

No, this is very much not typical, except maybe for very junior or trainee roles.

_Brian

I know in multinationals where grades exist you often need to be demonstrating that you are performing the majority of the tasks of the next grade before being considered for a promotion to that grade.

henryforde80

This happened me before and got stung, they are changing their arm with every quarter saying the will review next quarter.

I would definitely get something in writing.

Minderbinder

I’d be worried that they actually have someone else for the job long term but that person is not available just yet. I’d be worried about being a caretaker.

I just don’t think this is a normal way of doing things.

thejaguar

UnthoughtKnown wrote: »

I'd love to do that. Probably not the wisest move career wise, but it is definitely how I feel

Think about it this way - as a career move - is it wise to accept a promotion, extra responsibility, extra workload without any benefit?
You're basically saying you're willing to accept a valuation for yourself which you know is lower than it should be.
That's not a wise career move either.

UnthoughtKnown

Minderbinder wrote: »

I’d be worried that they actually have someone else for the job long term but that person is not available just yet. I’d be worried about being a caretaker.

I just don’t think this is a normal way of doing things.

It's a new role and was designed specifically for me. I have a unique and rare skill set in this company so will own a process/initiative globally.

It was never advertised externally.

thejaguar wrote: »

Think about it this way - as a career move - is it wise to accept a promotion, extra responsibility, extra workload without any benefit?
You're basically saying you're willing to accept a valuation for yourself which you know is lower than it should be.
That's not a wise career move either.

I understand what you're saying. Thanks. Maybe I need to be more assertive and not worry about keeping everyone happy. Look after number one. I suppose it's tough to balance it all to get the desired outcome.

I've emailed the directors who I have been reporting to, and will be reporting to. I've asked for clarification on certain aspects of the role, this way at least when they reply, I'll have my responsibilities in writing. After that, I will approach the package.

Maybe I should go with my gut and not what I perceive as being the best move. Tell them I'm not will to take all this on without being paid to do so. As I mentioned above, it was a new role designed for me, so I think I do have a bit of a leg to stand on.

Avatar MIA

UnthoughtKnown wrote: »

Tell them I'm not will to take all this on without being paid to do so. As I mentioned above, it was a new role designed for me, so I think I do have a bit of a leg to stand on.

Find out how long it will be before it's known if it's permanent. If it's a short period, just go with it.

Word your rejection in the wrong way and it wouldn't be unknow for senior management to cut their nose off to spite their face... i.e. the outcome may not be as logical as you think.

The more you say the more their action makes sense. This is a new role, which may or may not have the desired impact. They are giving you a chance to show what you've got.

the_syco

UnthoughtKnown wrote: »

I've been told I must prove I can do the role and then that'll be discussed. This doesn't sit well with me.

Sounds like they need someone to do the role temporarily.

Avatar MIA

the_syco wrote: »

Sounds like they need someone to do the role temporarily.

A new global initiative... that's temporary? :pac:

Eric Cartman

a limit of 6 months and fixed performance indicators / outcomes in writing is the only way I'd agree to that.
I'd also ask them to put it in writing that they will not actively hunt / interview etc.. others for the roll, you don't want to be a stopgap for 5 months while somebody else comes in the door at the end.

Avatar MIA

Eric Cartman wrote: »

a limit of 6 months and fixed performance indicators / outcomes in writing is the only way I'd agree to that.

2 months max should give them all the indication they need. I'd also ask for the time to be back paid if it is made permanent.

bobbysands81

Avatar MIA wrote: »

A new global initiative... that's temporary? :pac:

Equally... a new global initiative that they don’t want to pay someone appropriately for?

dr.fuzzenstein

UnthoughtKnown wrote: »

It's a new role and was designed specifically for me. I have a unique and rare skill set in this company so will own a process/initiative globally.

bobbysands81

Minderbinder wrote: »

I’d be worried that they actually have someone else for the job long term but that person is not available just yet. I’d be worried about being a caretaker.

I just don’t think this is a normal way of doing things.

I’d also be looking for a written guarantee of old job back if the “promotion” didn’t work out for this or any other reason.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

_Brian wrote: »

I know in multinationals where grades exist you often need to be demonstrating that you are performing the majority of the tasks of the next grade before being considered for a promotion to that grade.

This, plenty of companies do this. I don't like getting paid less for working more, but if it helps secure a promotion, then so be it. That being said, these companies tend to pay top dollar already.

Avatar MIA

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Equally... a new global initiative that they don’t want to pay someone appropriately for?

Appropriate is subjective

the_syco

Avatar MIA wrote: »

A new global initiative... that's temporary? :pac:

Sounds like the job needs someone right now, but they're still only on stage 3 of 5 for selecting the right external applicant.

So for the time being, they'll use the OP. That's the temporary part.

dennyk

OP should definitely ask for the defined probation period contract and goals in writing (with a fixed end date for the probation), and the specifics of the salary and promotion once the period has passed. If they refuse, odds are high that it's either an "oh **** we need this role filled right away because proper planning is too much work, but the hiring process takes ages, quick let's get OP to do it on the cheap while we find the right candidate" situation, or they're aiming to get OP to permanently take on more work for the same pay with vague promises of arranging a proper promotion and pay rise "someday, maybe, we'll see how it goes..." that they have no intention of delivering on.

Avatar MIA

the_syco wrote: »

Sounds like the job needs someone right now, but they're still only on stage 3 of 5 for selecting the right external applicant.

So for the time being, they'll use the OP. That's the temporary part.

Can you have a chat with May to see if you can sort out Brexit - you've a great imagination.

Avatar MIA

dennyk wrote: »

OP should definitely ask for the defined probation period contract and goals in writing (with a fixed end date for the probation), and the specifics of the salary and promotion once the period has passed. If they refuse, odds are high that it's either an "oh **** we need this role filled right away because proper planning is too much work, but the hiring process takes ages, quick let's get OP to do it on the cheap while we find the right candidate" situation, or they're aiming to get OP to permanently take on more work for the same pay with vague promises of arranging a proper promotion and pay rise "someday, maybe, we'll see how it goes..." that they have no intention of delivering on.

Where your hypothesis falls down is that for a global initiative they could very well usurp the OP if a better candidate came along, but a global company wouldn't do that AND take the piss with the salary. They wouldn't do both, IMHO.

wench

If the job is designed for you, around your very particular set of skills, why is there then a question over whether you can actually do it?

UnthoughtKnown

There's going to be no other candidates. I am the preferred "Liam Neeson" candidate. There's no head count for it, its a very lean part of the organisation.

I have a feeling it might be what dennyk alluded to. They just don't to spend the money just to see can they get away with it. Save their budget etc.

Give me a week or two and I'll get to the bottom of it and report back!

UnthoughtKnown

And just to clarify, my skillset isn't anything cool or rare in the average workplace. I just happen to be in a organisation where they don't hire many of "me" , which works in my favour.

AndrewJRenko

UnthoughtKnown wrote: »

I've emailed the directors who I have been reporting to, and will be reporting to. I've asked for clarification on certain aspects of the role, this way at least when they reply, I'll have my responsibilities in writing. After that, I will approach the package.

Just a suggestion - these things generally aren't sorted out effectively by email. Find the key person that you'll be reporting and sit down face to face, eye to eye to discuss the package and future options.


You'll want something in writing/email before things proceed, but do the deal in person.

ELM327

To play devils advocate for a second, OP.
I'm working now in a large multinational with "grades" as someone mentioned earlier.
I was working here before, took a few years off to work as a contractor/consultant, then came back.


In my org structure it is well known that the new director (approx 1 year in situ) is very much geared towards "do the job then get the job".

At any one time, at least 10% of his org is on an internship/contingency/temporary "promotion etc.


I am on my second, having done one last year for 6 months then got the grade for it, and did the job for 6 months.


It's very difficult when it's not written down and yes anything can happen etc but if you force their hand as some describe above you run the risk of both a) not getting the position and b) completely ruling yourself out of future promotions.

jackboy

homosapien91 wrote: »

When I started my job I had to do a 6 month probation and once I passed that I was given the salary the job had advertised ( I was on slightly less for the 6 month probation ) is that not common practice for most companies

It's getting common and sometimes can be much longer than six months. A lot of multinationals now call these 'development opportunities', but it's just basically cheap labour.

NightStone

Yes for sure on the long probation wrapped up in shiny "development opportunities".
I was speaking with a person who took a job with an 11 month probation period .....,!

beauf

UnthoughtKnown wrote: »

There's going to be no other candidates. I am the preferred "Liam Neeson" candidate. There's no head count for it, its a very lean part of the organisation.

I have a feeling it might be what dennyk alluded to. They just don't to spend the money just to see can they get away with it. Save their budget etc.

Give me a week or two and I'll get to the bottom of it and report back!

Take the opportunity put it on your CV straight away. Then leverage it by seeing what other jobs are out there. If you get a better offer move.