PAYE underpayment

pengaffe

Hi sorry for the long post.
Recently my husband requested p21’s as part of our application for help to buy scheme. Through doing this revenue informed us that we owed nearly €6000 jointly. So as I looked into it I discovered my previous employer had not paid PAYE for me. When I asked the accountant why he said I was below the threshold for paying PAYE. I told him this wasn’t the case as I share my tax credits with my husband. He told me he wasn’t aware of this and when I asked him if he had received tax credit cert he said no, that employers don’t receive them any more. My issue is that I never came out with more money as I made an agreement on the wages I would receive into my hand and taxes were paid by employer. Revenue are now recouping the underpayment from me on top of what I’m already paying, in short they have taken away all my tax credits. Does anyone think I have any hope in fighting it?

EverythingGood

pengaffe wrote: »

Hi sorry for the long post.
Recently my husband requested p21’s as part of our application for help to buy scheme. Through doing this revenue informed us that we owed nearly €6000 jointly. So as I looked into it I discovered my previous employer had not paid PAYE for me. When I asked the accountant why he said I was below the threshold for paying PAYE. I told him this wasn’t the case as I share my tax credits with my husband. He told me he wasn’t aware of this and when I asked him if he had received tax credit cert he said no, that employers don’t receive them any more. My issue is that I never came out with more money as I made an agreement on the wages I would receive into my hand and taxes were paid by employer. Revenue are now recouping the underpayment from me on top of what I’m already paying, in short they have taken away all my tax credits. Does anyone think I have any hope in fighting it?

Employers don't pay your taxes / PAYE, you pay via payroll, as in, you are responsible for ensuring your tax credits are up to date and that your payslip is correct.

Ninthlife

pengaffe wrote: »

Hi sorry for the long post.
Recently my husband requested p21’s as part of our application for help to buy scheme. Through doing this revenue informed us that we owed nearly €6000 jointly. So as I looked into it I discovered my previous employer had not paid PAYE for me. When I asked the accountant why he said I was below the threshold for paying PAYE. I told him this wasn’t the case as I share my tax credits with my husband. He told me he wasn’t aware of this and when I asked him if he had received tax credit cert he said no, that employers don’t receive them any more. My issue is that I never came out with more money as I made an agreement on the wages I would receive into my hand and taxes were paid by employer. Revenue are now recouping the underpayment from me on top of what I’m already paying, in short they have taken away all my tax credits. Does anyone think I have any hope in fighting it?

Employers deduct tax and USC as per instruction from Revenue as per the P2C (tax credit cert) issued to them when you commenced employment with them. Each December they receive a new one for the coming year. If the employer never received a rax cresit cert you should've been on emergency tax.

As stated though the onus is on you to ensure you are paying the correct tax so you will have no chance of arguing it

Calahonda52

pengaffe wrote: »

Hi sorry for the long post.
Recently my husband requested p21’s as part of our application for help to buy scheme. Through doing this revenue informed us that we owed nearly €6000 jointly. So as I looked into it I discovered my previous employer had not paid PAYE for me. When I asked the accountant why he said I was below the threshold for paying PAYE. I told him this wasn’t the case as I share my tax credits with my husband. He told me he wasn’t aware of this and when I asked him if he had received tax credit cert he said no, that employers don’t receive them any more. My issue is that I never came out with more money as I made an agreement on the wages I would receive into my hand and taxes were paid by employer. Revenue are now recouping the underpayment from me on top of what I’m already paying, in short they have taken away all my tax credits. Does anyone think I have any hope in fighting it?

How exactly did that come about?

As for fighting the Revenue: about what? the mess is of your making

pengaffe

Calahonda52 wrote: »

How exactly did that come about?

As for fighting the Revenue: about what? the mess is of your making

Thank you for your reply however the mess isn’t exactly my making as you put it. I was working part time after previously working for an employer who dodged the revenue and who I had to in turn report for not paying my PAYE and did not receive a p45 after employment ceased. In the industry I was in you agreed a wage that you go home with. Yes it is my fault for not checking a long the way as I wasn’t issued payslips. However I never came out with more money. Say for instance I agreed €300 weekly take home that would mean my gross pay would be €348, I only ever came out with €300 so my point is that the employer did not pay the PAYE.

pengaffe

Ninthlife wrote: »

Employers deduct tax and USC as per instruction from Revenue as per the P2C (tax credit cert) issued to them when you commenced employment with them. Each December they receive a new one for the coming year. If the employer never received a rax cresit cert you should've been on emergency tax.

As stated though the onus is on you to ensure you are paying the correct tax so you will have no chance of arguing it

Thank you for your reply. I was working part time after previously working for an employer who dodged the revenue and who I had to in turn report for not paying my PAYE and did not receive a p45 after employment ceased. In the industry I was in you agreed a wage that you go home with. Yes it is my fault for not checking a long the way as I wasn’t issued payslips. However I never came out with more money. Say for instance I agreed €300 weekly take home that would mean my gross pay would be €348, I only ever came out with €300 so my point is that the employer did not pay the PAYE.

pengaffe

EverythingGood wrote: »

Employers don't pay your taxes / PAYE, you pay via payroll, as in, you are responsible for ensuring your tax credits are up to date and that your payslip is correct.

Thank you for your reply. I was working part time after previously working for an employer who dodged the revenue and who I had to in turn report for not paying my PAYE and did not receive a p45 after employment ceased. In the industry I was in you agreed a wage that you go home with. Yes it is my fault for not checking a long the way as I wasn’t issued payslips. However I never came out with more money. Say for instance I agreed €300 weekly take home that would mean my gross pay would be €348, I only ever came out with €300 so my point is that the employer did not pay the PAYE.

SCOOP 64

Got it the third time.

TitianGerm

pengaffe wrote: »

Thank you for your reply. I was working part time after previously working for an employer who dodged the revenue and who I had to in turn report for not paying my PAYE and did not receive a p45 after employment ceased. In the industry I was in you agreed a wage that you go home with. Yes it is my fault for not checking a long the way as I wasn’t issued payslips. However I never came out with more money. Say for instance I agreed €300 weekly take home that would mean my gross pay would be €348, I only ever came out with €300 so my point is that the employer did not pay the PAYE.

Did your employer issue you with a P60 each year? If not you need to report him. Were you paid into the bank or cash?

pengaffe

TitianGerm wrote: »

Did your employer issue you with a P60 each year? If not you need to report him. Were you paid into the bank or cash?

I only received the p60 this week that’s how I realised the issue. And yes I was paid in the bank every week

TitianGerm

pengaffe wrote: »

I only received the p60 this week that’s how I realised the issue. And yes I was paid in the bank every week

Make a complaint. P60 should be sent out no later than 15th of February. It's also illegal to not provide your employees with a valid payslip.

Did you have a contract to say you were to recieve €300 net per week (or whatever the figure was)?

ahnowbrowncow

pengaffe wrote: »

Thank you for your reply however the mess isn’t exactly my making as you put it. I was working part time after previously working for an employer who dodged the revenue and who I had to in turn report for not paying my PAYE and did not receive a p45 after employment ceased. In the industry I was in you agreed a wage that you go home with. Yes it is my fault for not checking a long the way as I wasn’t issued payslips. However I never came out with more money. Say for instance I agreed €300 weekly take home that would mean my gross pay would be €348, I only ever came out with €300 so my point is that the employer did not pay the PAYE.

Was it your accountant or the employer's accountant that told you the employer doesn't receive your tax credit certificate/P2C? That's incorrect and I would be wary of getting advice from them in the future.



If you were being paid cash and your employer didn't notify Revenue of your employment it would seem that your employer purposefully failed to deduct tax correctly and has willfully landed you in this situation in order to avoid paying employer's PRSI.


You obviously have some responsibility in this and ultimately will have to foot the bill. But I would be reporting my employer for creating this mess and because if they have haven't paid their share of PRSI on your behalf, your contribution to the social insurance fund is massively reduced and have reduced entitlements to DEASP benefits.

TitianGerm

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Was it your accountant or the employer's accountant that told you the employer doesn't receive your tax credit certificate/P2C? That's incorrect and I would be wary of getting advice from them in the future.



If you were being paid cash and your employer didn't notify Revenue of your employment it would seem that your employer purposefully failed to deduct tax correctly and has willfully landed you in this situation in order to avoid paying employer's PRSI.


You obviously have some responsibility in this and ultimately will have to foot the bill. But I would be reporting my employer for creating this mess and because if they have haven't paid their share of PRSI on your behalf, your contribution to the social insurance fund is massively reduced and have reduced entitlements to DEASP benefits.

If a net pay has been agreed then in essence the employer has deducted PAYE, PRSI and USC as they must gross up the salary, but have filed an incorrect P35 and not paid the relevant taxes to Revenue.

Revenue would be very happy to hear about this and will definitely investigate the employer as it's unlikely they gave just done it once.

pengaffe

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Was it your accountant or the employer's accountant that told you the employer doesn't receive your tax credit certificate/P2C? That's incorrect and I would be wary of getting advice from them in the future.



If you were being paid cash and your employer didn't notify Revenue of your employment it would seem that your employer purposefully failed to deduct tax correctly and has willfully landed you in this situation in order to avoid paying employer's PRSI.



You obviously have some responsibility in this and ultimately will have to foot the bill. But I would be reporting my employer for creating this mess and because if they have haven't paid their share of PRSI on your behalf, your contribution to the social insurance fund is massively reduced and have reduced entitlements to DEASP benefits.

It is my ex employers accountant. He is trying to dodge responsibility by telling me that employers don’t recieve tax credit certs. I understand I will have to pay the price for it now just very frustrating when I didn’t come out with more money at the time. I was registered and my USC and PRSI was paid but because they had my incorrect tax credits it appeared I wasn’t liable to pay PAYE so it’s not underhanded just sloppy accounting and pay roll

pengaffe

Thank you for your advice it’s a very tough situation as it’s a friend of mine only starting out in their own business so reporting them for anything is going to be tough as it is the accountant which has caused the mess I just should have kept a closer eye.

TitianGerm

pengaffe wrote: »

It is my ex employers accountant. He is trying to dodge responsibility by telling me that employers don’t recieve tax credit certs. I understand I will have to pay the price for it now just very frustrating when I didn’t come out with more money at the time. I was registered and my USC and PRSI was paid but because they had my incorrect tax credits it appeared I wasn’t liable to pay PAYE so it’s not underhanded just sloppy accounting and pay roll

If the employer does not do the payroll it will be the accountant who does it or another payroll provider.

Each year Revenue issues all employees registered under your employers number a P2C. This document is the Tax Credit Cert.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/becoming-an-employer-and-ongoing-obligations/maintaining-your-records/tax-credit-certificates-p2cs.aspx

Whoever processes the payroll must make the correct deductions based off this document.

CeilingFly

This type of pay agreement is still about - usually its in more rural areas where it's small local businesses.

I can see where the error is - the employer/accountant forgot or didn't hear when you told him/her you were jointly assessed and at €300 a week if you were taxed individually there'd be no personal tax or prsi or usc, just a low rate of employer prsi.

If possible I'd approach the previous employer and try and get agreement from them to at least contribute to the amount owed.


But it seems you were just put on standard weekly credits and any tax credit form was ignored out of probable laziness on the accountants side.

I'd suggest a 50/50 agreement.

pengaffe

TitianGerm wrote: »

If the employer does not do the payroll it will be the accountant who does it or another payroll provider.

Each year Revenue issues all employees registered under your employers number a P2C. This document is the Tax Credit Cert.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/becoming-an-employer-and-ongoing-obligations/maintaining-your-records/tax-credit-certificates-p2cs.aspx

Whoever processes the payroll must make the correct deductions based off this document.

Do you think there’s any chance at all of revenue putting the onus on them instead of me? I’m on maternity at the moment but once I go back to work I’d like to have it sorted.

TitianGerm

CeilingFly wrote: »

This type of pay agreement is still about - usually its in more rural areas where it's small local businesses.

I can see where the error is - the employer forgot or didn't hear when you told him/her you were jointly assessed and at €300 a week if you were taxed individually there'd be no personal tax or prsi or usc, just a low rate of employer prsi.

If possible I'd approach the previous employer and try and get agreement from them to at least contribute to the amount owed.


But it seems you were just put on standard weekly credits and any tax credit form was ignored out of probable laziness.

If someone agreed to pay me net the first thing I'd do is give my spouse all my credits. Let the employer pay everything for me.

pengaffe

CeilingFly wrote: »

This type of pay agreement is still about - usually its in more rural areas where it's small local businesses.

I can see where the error is - the employer forgot or didn't hear when you told him/her you were jointly assessed and at €300 a week if you were taxed individually there'd be no personal tax or prsi or usc, just a low rate of employer prsi.

If possible I'd approach the previous employer and try and get agreement from them to at least contribute to the amount owed.



But it seems you were just put on standard weekly credits and any tax credit form was ignored out of probable laziness.

I'd suggest a 50/50 agreement.

You’ve hit the nail on the head thank you for your advice!

TitianGerm

pengaffe wrote: »

Do you think there’s any chance at all of revenue putting the onus on them instead of me? I’m on maternity at the moment but once I go back to work I’d like to have it sorted.

If you have proof of an agreement to be paid net then none of this is your fault. Especially if you never received payslips and only got your P60 this week.

Your only means to confirm payment was correct was to see the agreed €300 was lodged to your bank each week.

pengaffe

TitianGerm wrote: »

If you have proof of an agreement to be paid net then none of this is your fault. Especially if you never received payslips and only got your P60 this week.

Your only means to confirm payment was correct was to see the agreed €300 was lodged to your bank each week.

Well I absolutely have that. Thank you for your advice I’ll get on to revenue and try to sort it

TitianGerm

pengaffe wrote: »

Well I absolutely have that. Thank you for your advice I’ll get on to revenue and try to sort it

Might be worth giving WRC a call as well. They take a very hard line with employers not issuing correct documents and the likes of holiday pay etc.

splinter65

pengaffe wrote: »

Do you think there’s any chance at all of revenue putting the onus on them instead of me? I’m on maternity at the moment but once I go back to work I’d like to have it sorted.

No. As far as revenue are concerned you earned the wages so you owe the tax. You need to talk to Revenue about spreading what you owe over as long a period as they will allow.
Then you need to talk to your ex employer about the bind you are in. They should at least offer to go halves with you.
They broke the law by not giving you payslips. That’s at the very least.
Tomorrow ring employment rights on 1890808090 and ask their advice about any further action you could take against them.
Talk to Revenue. Revenue have to get the money because it’s belonging to all of us. But they will spread it out for you.

relax carry on

You agreed to a net pay arrangement which no one ever should. The employer most definitely shouldn't have operated it as they can go spectacularly wrong.

In your case as you are jointly assessed you probably benefited from full tax credits and rate band as a single person while your spouse probably received your transferrable rate band and credits as a jointly assessed spouse. In effect your employer made an error and deducted far less tax than they should have. If they had operated the PAYE system as they should have this wouldn't have occurred. In any case the tax is owed and must be paid.

November Golf

pengaffe wrote: »

I only received the p60 this week that’s how I realised the issue. And yes I was paid in the bank every week

My friend had a similar agreement with his employer, they agreed on a Net Wage & the employer would input the payroll details on a net to gross basis (effectively paying the taxes for him) so its not that uncommon. However he still received a payslip each week stating the "gross wage", tax deductions & his agreed net amount.

Unfortunately as previously stated unless you have a contract that stated "net wage of €300" you have no prove that this was the case & in the eyes of the law and revenue you earned €300 before tax and you are liable to pay tax on that amount.

It may be worth writing a letter to revenue to inform them of the situation but It is completely up to them to decide if they investigate the employer as from a legal point of view your the one that failed to pay tax on your earnings.

On the other hand, your accountancy is misleading you regarding the tax credit certification (aka P2C). Employers continue to receive the P2C (although via ROS instead of by post). This is due to change on the 1st January 2019 with the implementation of PAYE Modernisation but at present it continue to be sent to all employers that request it for a employee.

As also stated, your employer is legally obliged to provide you with a P60 no later than the 15th February for the previous year. if he failed to do so, you should report it to revenue.

Sorry but no good news here

CeilingFly

TitianGerm wrote: »

Might be worth giving WRC a call as well. They take a very hard line with employers not issuing correct documents and the likes of holiday pay etc.

Its a tiny business run by someone the OP knows so running to cause trouble is not in any way the answer or the right way to deal with this.

There was a simple error caused by laziness of not entering correct tax status.

In an ideal world the OP should have checked, but many people just trust things are done properly especially when accountants are there.

TitianGerm

CeilingFly wrote: »

Its a tiny business run by someone the OP knows so running to cause trouble is not in any way the answer or the right way to deal with this.

There was a simple error caused by laziness of not entering correct tax status.

In an ideal world the OP should have checked, but many people just trust things are done properly especially when accountants are there.

The OP wasn't provided with payslips or a P60 so she had no way to check.

Just because it's a small business and the owner is lazy does not give them a free pass to cost the OP thousands in unpaid taxes.

The employer was wrong and the employer should pick up the liability as was initially agreed to pay a net wage, if not then he should be reported and then at least he won't make the same mistake again.

Hitman3000

You made an agreement as to what your net pay would be after tax. Did you get a pay slip?
Revenue will enter an agreement with you to repay the money by if you wish reducing your tax credits for a period of time to cover the shortfall. ie cut your tax credit by a 1000 pa for 6 years.

splinter65

TitianGerm wrote: »

The OP wasn't provided with payslips or a P60 so she had no way to check.

Just because it's a small business and the owner is lazy does not give them a free pass to cost the OP thousands in unpaid taxes.

The employer was wrong and the employer should pick up the liability as was initially agreed to pay a net wage, if not then he should be reported and then at least he won't make the same mistake again.

Definitely needs to be pulled over this if just to prevent it happening to the next person.

splinter65

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You made an agreement as to what your net pay would be after tax. Did you get a pay slip?
Revenue will enter an agreement with you to repay the money by if you wish reducing your tax credits for a period of time to cover the shortfall. ie cut your tax credit by a 1000 pa for 6 years.

Best possible outcome

CeilingFly

TitianGerm wrote: »

The OP wasn't provided with payslips or a P60 so she had no way to check.

Just because it's a small business and the owner is lazy does not give them a free pass to cost the OP thousands in unpaid taxes.

The employer was wrong and the employer should pick up the liability as was initially agreed to pay a net wage, if not then he should be reported and then at least he won't make the same mistake again.

Still no excuse. OP should have requested payslips. But even then it may not have been obvious. Several part time staff that work for me pay nothing in tax and they have no interest in their payslips unless its needed for a susi grant or similar and then they've lost them and need them reprinted

Those with knowledge will know what they are meant to pay, but many will just assume an accountant with payroll software will be correct.

There's no question of it not being recorded as otherwise revenue would not have known about it. The OP was simply entered as being taxed as a single person and the level of pay did not result in tax, usc or prsi requiring to be deducted and just employer prsi being the extra.

I still say a formal sit down with the employer is the best way as the op's agreement was that the amount paid was the after tax amount.

So whilst technically the OP owes revenue, the employer via the employment agreement owes the OP.

I still say it was a simple input error of providing standard weekly tax credits, but it is for the employer to at least contribute to what is owed, if not pay in full.

TitianGerm

CeilingFly wrote: »

Still no excuse. OP should have requested payslips. But even then it may not have been obvious. Several part time staff that work for me pay nothing in tax and they have no interest in their payslips unless its needed for a susi grant or similar and then they've lost them and need them reprinted

Those with knowledge will know what they are meant to pay, but many will just assume an accountant with payroll software will be correct.

There's no question of it not being recorded as otherwise revenue would not have known about it. The OP was simply entered as being taxed as a single person and the level of pay did not result in tax, usc or prsi requiring to be deducted and just employer prsi being the extra.

I still say a formal sit down with the employer is the best way as the op's agreement was that the amount paid was the after tax amount.

So whilst technically the OP owes revenue, the employer via the employment agreement owes the OP.

I still say it was a simple input error of providing standard weekly tax credits, but it is for the employer to at least contribute to what is owed, if not pay in full.

The employer has filed an incorrect P35 because they did not follow the OPs P2C. He gave her to many credits so the total cost to him was less than if he applied the right credits.

El Grifo

CeilingFly wrote: »

The OP was simply entered as being taxed as a single person and the level of pay did not result in tax, usc or prsi requiring to be deducted and just employer prsi being the extra.

I still say a formal sit down with the employer is the best way as the op's agreement was that the amount paid was the after tax amount.

So whilst technically the OP owes revenue, the employer via the employment agreement owes the OP.

I still say it was a simple input error of providing standard weekly tax credits, but it is for the employer to at least contribute to what is owed, if not pay in full.

This is the nub of the matter. Employers obligations are to operate the Tax credit instruction(P2C) Revenue issue. The employee's responsibilities are to ensure that their Tax Credits are correct.

In the absence of a P2C ( which the employee needs to apply for if they don't have a previous P45) the employer's obligation is to operate Emergency Tax. This extends to the payroll agent (accountant) who contracted with the employer to do that work for them. It is not up to the payroll agent or employer to simply decide to operate a single persons credits/cut-off because that gives the "best" gross i.e. the lowest cost to the employer. If a P2C had issued the accountant would probably have said to the employer, "look this is costing you big time" and the issue may have come up for renegotiation. So the employers non-operation of the PAYE/PRSI regulations has in no small part contributed to this problem.

Also the accountant may have been economic in their saying that P2C's no longer issue to the employer. They do issue, just on ROS, not on paper and ROS should be checked before any payroll run to see if there are any new P2C's. If the accountant is acting as payroll agent it is not acceptable that they would fail in their duty to their client (the employer) by failing to see that an instruction wasn't there and also by using credits which were not from a Revenue issued document. So maybe the employer has issues there between him/her and the accountant. As has been said, this is unlikely to be an isolated incident.

Certainly net to gross arrangements do exist a lot but are so dangerous and this case shows why. I would agree that some discussion with the employer may help. No one wants the possibility of Revenue or WRC on their back. If they were to agree a part-contribution that might be the best outcome.