History no longer a core subject In Secondary Level

listermint

listermint wrote: »

But surely as we can see demonstrated from the likes of the recent Brexit referendum, These decisions have a wider socio economic implications.

I have watched various programs recently from Sky to the bbc to Ch4 and the Guardian travelling around numerous areas in the UK to reveal that the average person on the street doesnt have a clue. About various topics. History or the wider non doorstep area being top of the list.

It doesnt make sense if we want to keep ourselves a centrist country.

That's without doubt a reflection on how effective the British have been at teaching their version of history? It's quite awesome by any standard how the vast majority of an entire population can be hoodwinked into believing a great, bulging myth about their past - in this case, all the variants of the British Empire being a greater good, a civilising influence, a selfless peacekeeping endeavour throughout the centuries. Nothing displays the power, at elite/media and populist levels, of their version of history than the whole poppy war glorification cult for two months every year. Use violence for the fanatical aims of British imperialism and you're a hero; use violence to achieve freedom for your country from that supremacist project and you are reviled.

Similarly, you'll struggle in Irish history departments to find "historians" who are not pushing a profoundly anglocentric version of Irish history. This is the outstanding feature of what passes as 'professional' historians in Ireland today. Listen to the accents and their affectations, and see (on the respective history department webpages of staff) how they fled to England as soon as they finished their degree in Ireland just to get the words Cantab and Oxon on their cvs. The Irish focus on the British 'constitutional' (political) history emphasis rather than, say, on the French focus on social and economic history is the most egregious example of this anglocentricity, this intellectual servitude to the English version and emphasis of Irish history.

It's far from a coincidence, for instance, that when Irish historians (or, rather, Anglo-Irish historians like Robert Dudley Edwards) established their own historical journal, which they creatively named Irish Historical Studies, they essentially plagiarised the English historical tradition as embodied in, yes, English Historical Studies. They could have chosen the French Annales journal with its massive social history emphasis. But no. The exceptions to this anglocentric worldview can be counted on a single hand, with JJ Lee & Gearóid Ó Tuathaigh for social history and Seán de Fréine and Declan Kiberd for cultural/intellectual history springing to mind.

And as for the politics of most of the books that pass as secondary school history books, the description of the Fenians as "extremists" while not using a similar description for the people who ran and ideologically supported the existence of the largest empire in human history in Ireland at the same time (or indeed mentioning that most of the HR candidates under Redmond had barely democratic mandates at best, or that Redmond wrote blood-curdling speeches glorifying blood sacrifice when Irish-born British soldiers used violence for the British Empire in WWI, or that the British only introduced PR-STV after the 1918 election because SF was the largest party and PR-STV helps smaller parties, and so very much else) sums up very nicely the sort of anglocentric, distorted world view that is peddled in Irish history books today.

In this context, removing what passes as "history" in Irish schools today helps to reduce the propagation of this blinkered, myopic hangover from the 19th century that is anglocentric Ireland. The very, very, very last thing history is as an academic discipline in Ireland is Eurocentric; the palaver that the recent "Cambridge" history of Ireland received in the Oirish media being yet more evidence of who is still controlling representations of Ireland's past.

recedite

Deleted User wrote: »

It's quite awesome by any standard how the vast majority of an entire population can be hoodwinked into believing a great, bulging myth about their past

In fairness there is probably no country that teaches a totally objective and unbiased view of their past. Most countries have their own foundation myth, and their great leaders and heroes of the past. And don't forget, history is generally written by the victors. Its dangerous to think that the study of history creates critical thinking in students; that is putting the cart before the horse.
IMO history and religion in state schools should only be taught on the basis of what is agreed on a very wide consensus, even if that means a lot of the detail is left out.
There are other subjects more suited to developing critical thinking. The scientific method, philosophy, ethics. These should be promoted in state education. Once these necessary skills have been developed, the student would be in a better position to objectively evaluate the different versions of history and religion that might be out there.

blanch152

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ira-victims-son-slams-sf-claim-britain-was-chief-aggressor-of-the-troubles-37382458.html


Speaking about myths about the past, has anyone else seen this attempt to rewrite history by Sinn Fein.

How anyone can claim that the IRA were anything other than the main protagonist in the Troubles is just staggering.

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ira-victims-son-slams-sf-claim-britain-was-chief-aggressor-of-the-troubles-37382458.html


Speaking about myths about the past, has anyone else seen this attempt to rewrite history by Sinn Fein.

How anyone can claim that the IRA were anything other than the main protagonist in the Troubles is just staggering.

The 6 county statelet was the main protagonist, and was complicit in violence against the nationalist community which led to the formation of the PIRA.

expectationlost

listermint wrote: »

So now that history is no longer a core subject at second level. What could be the impact. Certainly from a political / social point of view I believe that having history as a core subject as allowed Irish society to maintain a more worldly outlook. It part i think it actually has assisted our view of the European project and our place within it.

So the question is, Who made this decision. Why was it made and who backed it. Certainly from a novices stand point it appears that everyone and their aunty (so to speak) was against its removal.


So why then, its Ireland joining England and Albania as european countries that doesnt have history as core to education.

education correspondent of the Irish Exmainer

Niall Murray‏ @niallmurray1 May 6 [/URL]

Would all those bemoaning “removal of history as a core subject” for junior cycle please do some service to study of history, and research & present all the facts. It wasn’t compulsory at 48% of schools anyway (yet 90+% of students did Junior Certificate history exams) #edchatie

thread based on false premise

blanch152

Odhinn wrote: »

The 6 county statelet was the main protagonist, and was complicit in violence against the nationalist community which led to the formation of the PIRA.

Ah yes, the old "he made me do it" excuse. Don't wash with me, but the statistics on who killed who do.

Franz Von Peppercorn

recedite wrote: »

The assumption that Brexiteers lack these is faulty reasoning.
As is the assumption that Irish students are better in these areas as a result of the way history has been taught in this country. Or that they have a more objective view of history than people in other countries.

I’ve lived in Britain and they don’t really know their history, and nothing about Ireland of course.

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

Odhinn wrote: »

The 6 county statelet was the main protagonist, and was complicit in violence against the nationalist community which led to the formation of the PIRA.

Ah yes, the old "he made me do it" excuse. Don't wash with me, but the statistics on who killed who do.

You're beyond parody at this point. Half expecting to find you on the soccer forums shoehorning SF and the PIRA into discussions and blaming them for the results at the weekend.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Stay on topic please and cut out the petty sniping.