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Galway - Light Rail

2

Comments

  • #2


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Belfast is an extremely poor example of public transport provision.

    I agree, but it doesn't make it any more ridiculous suggestion that Galway with a population of just 75k needs a Luas. In most of Europe it wouldn't even be a city, just a large town.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    What is this based on? Cork is one of the largest cities in the EU without a light rail of some sort.

    What? There are loads of much larger EU cities without trams.

    Munster in Germany jumps to mind, city population 300k, metro 1 million (Cork is 124k city, 300k Metro), basically 3 times larger then Cork and it has no trams or U-Bahn or S-Bahn.

    I note you specified EU cities, thus now leaving out the UK which has many much larger cities with no trams.

    Of course, many small European cities do have trams for historical reasons, going back more then 100 years. Most pre-dated buses of course and it was the only option at the time. Cork once did, as did Munster in Germany.

    That doesn't mean it makes sense to build new modern light rail lines in every city today. Not when we already haves buses and we have new options like EV buses and BRT's.

    As a Corkonian I'm not fundamentally against the idea of a Luas line in Cork, but I do think that line is pretty borderline and a high quality BRT would likely do fine instead too, but sure if Dublin wants to drop a billion on Cork for CLUAS, then I won't complain.

    What I would complain about is if we don't get Cork BusConnects too. Buses in Cork are dreadful, bringing them up to the same level of quality and frequency as Dublin has today (never mind after Dublin's Busconnect) would be a revolution in public transport for Cork.

    I suppose that is where my fear is. That we would just get the money for a single Luas line that becomes a white elephant and then there is no money left over for the 90% of the rest of the city served by very poor bus services.

    Grand if we get both Bus Connects Cork and CLuas, but a single Luas line isn't going to fix the fundamental issues in public transport in Cork. Even talking about Luas in Cork feels like putting the cart before the horse, a single glitzy project before fixing the serious problems with most of the buses in the city.
    DaCor wrote:
    How conducive to light rail would Corks geography be? I'm not very familiar with the city but I do recall there be some steep streets/roads as you move out of the city center

    Very poor. Lots of hells and tiny, narrow streets everywhere, even much smaller and tighter then Dublins. Then you have the city center which is an island and all very prone to flooding.

    There is room for one good Luas line and the route does make sense given where population growth in the city is likely to be. But there isn't really many options for routes beyond that and serving the rest of the city and that is where my concern mostly stems from.


  • #2


    bk wrote: »
    Munster in Germany jumps to mind, city population 300k, metro 1 million (Cork is 124k city, 300k Metro), basically 3 times larger then Cork and it has no trams or U-Bahn or S-Bahn.

    Munster is exceptional, the largest German City without some S-bahn U-bahn or strassen bahn. It's also quite a hot topic locally about how poor PT is.
    bk wrote: »
    I note you specified EU cities, thus now leaving out the UK which has many much larger cities with no trams.

    Yup, UK is a $h!t show, shouldn't be used for comparisons.
    bk wrote: »
    As a Corkonian I'm not fundamentally against the idea of a Luas line in Cork, but I do think that line is pretty borderline and a high quality BRT would likely do fine instead too, but sure if Dublin wants to drop a billion on Cork for CLUAS, then I won't complain.

    What I would complain about is if we don't get Cork BusConnects too. Buses in Cork are dreadful, bringing them up to the same level of quality and frequency as Dublin has today (never mind after Dublin's Busconnect) would be a revolution in public transport for Cork.

    I suppose that is where my fear is. That we would just get the money for a single Luas line that becomes a white elephant and then there is no money left over for the 90% of the rest of the city served by very poor bus services.

    Grand if we get both Bus Connects Cork and CLuas, but a single Luas line isn't going to fix the fundamental issues in public transport in Cork. Even talking about Luas in Cork feels like putting the cart before the horse, a single glitzy project before fixing the serious problems with most of the buses in the city.

    There's plans for BusConnects also.


  • #2


    Galway has to be one of the worst planned cities in Europe even compared to other cities in Ireland like Cork, Dublin and Limerick it is awful. The density is extremely poor and it feels likr most of the suburbs are rural. This results in it's infamous traffic problems. People should not be commuting to a small city like Galway.


  • #2


    I know that light rail vehicles typically last longer than buses. I do not know if the proposed Very Light Rail vehicles would last significantly longer than buses, but if they would last longer, they would need to be replaced less frequently than a bus would, and that would be one advantage they would have over buses. I do not know if they would last longer or not though.


  • #2


    When I saw that Coventry proposal my first instinct was 'how very British'. Galway does not need a tram system and if if did a Tomorrows World item like that would not be it.


  • #2


    When I saw that Coventry proposal my first instinct was 'how very British'. Galway does not need a tram system and if if did a Tomorrows World item like that would not be it.

    If it could be done for €7 million per Km, 20 km would be €140 million which would do Knocknacarra to Douiska and out to Claregalway. With P&R at Claregalway, and Knocknacarra, or nearby, then there would be a good level of modal shift.


  • #2


    If it could be done for €7 million per Km, 20 km would be €140 million which would do Knocknacarra to Douiska and out to Claregalway. With P&R at Claregalway, and Knocknacarra, or nearby, then there would be a good level of modal shift.


    I am sure it world, but there something 'on the cheap' about this system.



    Personally I think the orientation of Galway's entire transport network is wrong. There is an over emphasis on An Lar when the commuting patterns are kind of sideways away from the city centre between the suburbs and the industrial estates.

    I think the absolute number one transport issue in Galway now is the commuter rail project. All focus should be on that as the main game in town for now. As that would be the beginning of an actual public transport focal point from which to develop everything around.


  • #2


    https://connachttribune.ie/transport-minister-commits-to-light-rail-study-for-galway/

    Looks like that study is happening anyway, as part of the Galway Transport Strategy review next year... Tribune uses the VLR image for it, might not mean anything but you never know. Hopefully study just tells them to improve commuter rail and get busconnects done....


  • #2


    I am sure it world, but there something 'on the cheap' about this system.



    Personally I think the orientation of Galway's entire transport network is wrong. There is an over emphasis on An Lar when the commuting patterns are kind of sideways away from the city centre between the suburbs and the industrial estates.

    I think the absolute number one transport issue in Galway now is the commuter rail project. All focus should be on that as the main game in town for now. As that would be the beginning of an actual public transport focal point from which to develop everything around.

    Probably is cheap, but then, that is the point. Assuming lightweight buses is part of the design brief, and that light track formation is also part of the brief, then that should be OK.

    However, would a rubber based BRT system not be much the same idea, with better flexibility?

    On the Galway layout, I would see a route going along the N6, from the Coolagh or Martin Roundabout to the Headford Road, and accross the QCBridge into Newcastle and onto Knocknacarra. A spur out to the Tuam Road as far as Claregalway, or at least as far as a P&R out the road, and also into Eyre Sq.

    [This is just a sharp crayon version]


  • #2


    Is this for real? There is zero need for light rail anywhere in Ireland outside of the M50.


  • #2


    Is this for real? There is zero need for light rail anywhere in Ireland outside of the M50.

    If the light rail is cheap enough, and will convert car users to use it, and reduces congestion, then that is need enough.

    It is a lot cheaper than the proposed bypass which will not reduce congestion, and will increase car use. Also the bypass will not be completed in a decade.


  • #2


    Probably is cheap, but then, that is the point. Assuming lightweight buses is part of the design brief, and that light track formation is also part of the brief, then that should be OK.

    However, would a rubber based BRT system not be much the same idea, with better flexibility?

    On the Galway layout, I would see a route going along the N6, from the Coolagh or Martin Roundabout to the Headford Road, and accross the QCBridge into Newcastle and onto Knocknacarra. A spur out to the Tuam Road as far as Claregalway, or at least as far as a P&R out the road, and also into Eyre Sq.

    [This is just a sharp crayon version]

    Unfortunately it seems those in charge dont share the same ideas.
    He said the planned Cross-City Link bus route – which runs from University Road, over Salmon Weir Bridge, Francis Street and Eglinton Street to Eyre Square, Forster Street, College Road to the Dublin Road – would be the “obvious” one to be upgraded to light rail.

    In 30 years time they will still be scratching their heads wondering why the traffic to parkmore is so bad - driving from knocknacarra to parkmore will always be quicker than a zig-zagging light rail route through eyre sq.


  • #2


    timmyntc wrote: »
    Unfortunately it seems those in charge dont share the same ideas.


    In 30 years time they will still be scratching their heads wondering why the traffic to parkmore is so bad - driving from knocknacarra to parkmore will always be quicker than a zig-zagging light rail route through eyre sq.

    Bothar na dTreabh has enough space for the tracks either side except for the junctions. It would allow full speed over those sections, while city centre running would not.


  • #2


    Bothar na dTreabh has enough space for the tracks either side except for the junctions. It would allow full speed over those sections, while city centre running would not.

    I fully agree with you on that - bus lanes (or light rail) along BnaT would fix most of the city traffic. Point is that the govt dont see it that way - they'll end up with all this city center transport but all the jobs outside the city (unless the city density issue is fixed in the next 30 years)


  • #2


    Bothar na dTreabh has enough space for the tracks either side except for the junctions. It would allow full speed over those sections, while city centre running would not.

    There's a reason there isnt even a bus route along your proposed route, nobody lives there. Here's something I put on the M6 thread that answers this proposal
    DaCor wrote: »
    To route buses over the QCB would mean avoiding the city center. Why would you run a bus route that avoids the place where 30% of the population works? Here's the current network of routes

    543525.jpg

    The proposed bus routes as part of the GTS are laid out below. You'll note the QCB is not used, neither is the rest of the N6 as nobody lives or works there.

    543526.jpg


  • #2


    DaCor wrote: »
    There's a reason there isnt even a bus route along your proposed route, nobody lives there. Here's something I put on the M6 thread that answers this proposal

    This is the kind of narrow-minded thinking that has Galway city buses as poor as they are.

    People want to go from West of the corrib to Ballybrit/Parkmore
    People want to go from East of the corrib to NUIG

    Yet there are no direct buses that do this. The result is that the bus service is so slow as to be worthless, and instead people drive.
    If you could stay in your own car, listen to your own music, and still get to work quicker than the bus - why wouldnt you?

    That is the issue that needs addresses by Galway pt


  • #2


    Is this for real? There is zero need for light rail anywhere in Ireland outside of the M50.

    Detailed design of the Cork Luas is underway though. Dublin's Luas and the proposed metrolink have significant sections outside the M50. So clearly that's not an accurate rule of thumb.


  • #2


    What progress has been made on the city centre bus corridor? seems a simple project, a few signs and new road markings.


  • #2


    timmyntc wrote: »
    This is the kind of narrow-minded thinking that has Galway city buses as poor as they are.

    People want to go from West of the corrib to Ballybrit/Parkmore
    People want to go from East of the corrib to NUIG

    Yet there are no direct buses that do this. The result is that the bus service is so slow as to be worthless, and instead people drive.
    If you could stay in your own car, listen to your own music, and still get to work quicker than the bus - why wouldnt you?

    That is the issue that needs addresses by Galway pt

    Have a read of the GTS

    In the meantime, all your points are already addressed on this page of the M6 ring road thread
    cgcsb wrote: »
    What progress has been made on the city centre bus corridor? seems a simple project, a few signs and new road markings.

    This won't go ahead until the pedestrian bridge is built at the Cathedral. Construction due to start next year last I heard. Once that bridge is done, the rest will be implemented as they need to remove one of the footpaths on the Salmon Weir bridge to widen the lanes. They are leaving the path facing the weir as that is a protected view


  • #2


    DaCor wrote: »
    Have a read of the GTS

    In the meantime, all your points are already addressed on this page of the M6 ring road thread



    This won't go ahead until the pedestrian bridge is built at the Cathedral. Construction due to start next year last I heard. Once that bridge is done, the rest will be implemented as they need to remove one of the footpaths on the Salmon Weir bridge to widen the lanes. They are leaving the path facing the weir as that is a protected view

    You seem well informed. Is there a website or document with at least a scrap of information about the overall busconnects galway project similar to what there is for the Dublin project and what's being developed for the Cork project?

    I see that there's consultation on the Dublin Road and City Centre corridors but there's no overall document/website to tell us things like:
    How many corridors are there, where will they go, what priority measures are proposed etc.

    I note this project is being spearheaded by the local City Council rather than the NTA so I'm not sure I have any faith in delivery at this point. Say what you will about the NTA but they'll get things done eventually. Councils, especially provincial councils, only seem to go backwards when it comes to progress.


  • #2


    cgcsb wrote: »
    You seem well informed. Is there a website or document with at least a scrap of information about the overall busconnects galway project similar to what there is for the Dublin project and what's being developed for the Cork project?

    I see that there's consultation on the Dublin Road and City Centre corridors but there's no overall document/website to tell us things like:
    How many corridors are there, where will they go, what priority measures are proposed etc.

    The list of current projects is here https://www.galwaycity.ie/maintenance-strategy-projects

    From that page you can get links to the project pages which contain the websites, drawings etc for each project


  • #2


    DaCor wrote: »
    The list of current projects is here https://www.galwaycity.ie/maintenance-strategy-projects

    From that page you can get links to the project pages which contain the websites, drawings etc for each project

    I see, so there is no information regarding the other corridors at present, or even how many there are. Fair enough.


  • #2


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I see, so there is no information regarding the other corridors at present, or even how many there are. Fair enough.

    That's the GTS https://www.galwaycity.ie/galway-transport-strategy


  • #2


    If the light rail is cheap enough, and will convert car users to use it, and reduces congestion, then that is need enough.

    It is a lot cheaper than the proposed bypass which will not reduce congestion, and will increase car use. Also the bypass will not be completed in a decade.


    I've lived in Cork, Limerick, Wexford and Letterkenny. Locals will always drive rather than wait for a bus.


  • #2


    I've lived in Cork, Limerick, Wexford and Letterkenny. Locals will always drive rather than wait for a bus.

    Exactly, carrots are required nationwide, but they need to be coupled with sticks for car drivers, make it harder to access the city by car, reduce non disabled parking, decent pedestrianised zones, town congestion charges scaled on engine capacity/car value etc.

    EDIT: Incentives for delivery companies to switch to cargo carrier bikes for last mile would be fantastic for reducing space required for delivery and need for big trucks to come into town and city centres in all but the most exceptional of circumstances


  • #2


    I've lived in Cork, Limerick, Wexford and Letterkenny. Locals will always drive rather than wait for a bus.

    Well, waiting for Luas and hopping off near the desired destination might be a better option than sitting in a traffic jam, then searching for a parking spot that requires paying for, and then walking to the desired destination.

    Park and Ride makes a lot of sense for Galway because of all the one-off houses in remote locations. The benefit of Luas type service is that the next one will be along in a few minutes - and the display counts down. Unlike buses, the arrival of a Luas is not a surprise.

    If it is reliable, quicker, and frequent, it will be used.


  • #2


    Well, waiting for Luas and hopping off near the desired destination might be a better option than sitting in a traffic jam, then searching for a parking spot that requires paying for, and then walking to the desired destination.

    Park and Ride makes a lot of sense for Galway because of all the one-off houses in remote locations. The benefit of Luas type service is that the next one will be along in a few minutes - and the display counts down. Unlike buses, the arrival of a Luas is not a surprise.

    If it is reliable, quicker, and frequent, it will be used.

    There wont be a light rail in Galway this side of 2050 so there's little point talking about it

    What I will say, is some of the benefits you listed above are already there for the existing bus services


  • #2


    The benefit of Luas type service is that the next one will be along in a few minutes - and the display counts down. Unlike buses, the arrival of a Luas is not a surprise.

    If it is reliable, quicker, and frequent, it will be used.

    Buses can also achieve this. The main benefit of upgrading to light rail would be capacity enhancement. Current bus proposals are for a bus less than 'every 15 mins'. You need to have buses going every 5 mins before considering the upgrade to light rail in my opinion.


  • #2


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Buses can also achieve this. The main benefit of upgrading to light rail would be capacity enhancement. Current bus proposals are for a bus less than 'every 15 mins'. You need to have buses going every 5 mins before considering the upgrade to light rail in my opinion.

    I would agree with a frequency of 5 minutes for a bus, but bunching is always a problem with buses. Bus lanes and junction priority does help to reduce this.

    The benefit of Luas is that they are on dedicated spaces (tracks). However, I have sat on a Luas waiting 5 minutes at the Benburb St to cross over to Heuston Station because they had to wait for a light to proceed,. Luas loses some of its shine when it is not given adequate priority.


  • #2


    I would agree with a frequency of 5 minutes for a bus, but bunching is always a problem with buses. Bus lanes and junction priority does help to reduce this.

    The benefit of Luas is that they are on dedicated spaces (tracks). However, I have sat on a Luas waiting 5 minutes at the Benburb St to cross over to Heuston Station because they had to wait for a light to proceed,. Luas loses some of its shine when it is not given adequate priority.

    Any priority that you can give to a tram, you can also give to a bus, it's just that those in power often chose not to.


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