Cows Loose On Country Road At Night - Car Wrote Off

Mightydrumming

Hi all,

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I was driving on a dark country road tonight at around nine o clock and without even having time to brake, 2 cows (bullock and a calf) brought the car to an abrupt halt. 80KM to 0KM in a split second. Guards and passersby don't know how I survived, me neither - Car is practically a right off. I'm just back from the hospital, just bruising from the airbags which will more than likely hit me like a tonne of bricks tomorrow morning

Bought the car only 2 weeks ago, 2014. Fully comprehensive. I really dont want to go through my insurance though given the fact that it wasn't my fault? Guards and locals are trying to track down farmer who owns the livestock so should hear more about that in the coming days. People are saying the farmer should have insurance for things like this?

Car is also on finance so what would the procedure be there?

Again, any feedback would be appreciated. TIA!

SuperS54

Mightydrumming wrote: »

Guards and locals are trying to track down farmer who owns the livestock so should hear more about that in the coming days. People are saying the farmer should have insurance for things like this?

Any locals should know exactly who's cow it is, did the cow survive? It'll have a tag where you can trace the owner if no one is coming forward. The farmer "should" have insurance, whether they have or not is another thing. You should inform your insurance company, even if you don't intend to claim on your own insurance.

Del2005

You'll be held partially responsible for the crash because you were driving too fast to be able to stop safely on your side of the road in the distance that you can see.

Then it depends on how secure the field that the animals escaped from was, you will need to proof negligence on the farmers behal to be able to sue them. Because animals, mostly 2 legged
and not wearing reflective clothing or carrying a torch, are to be expected on county roads at night you should be driving slower.

Mightydrumming

SuperS54 wrote: »

Any locals should know exactly who's cow it is, did the cow survive? It'll have a tag where you can trace the owner if no one is coming forward. The farmer "should" have insurance, whether they have or not is another thing. You should inform your insurance company, even if you don't intend to claim on your own insurance.

Cheers for the reply!

Both had broken legs so I took it as they didn't, as the Gardai arrived - there was a tractor coming down for both of them. Gardai took all info from me and said they'd be in contact or the farmer in the next few days. I will ring my insurance first thing in the morning and let them know. The car was pushed up into a track for the night, not too sure if I'm suppose to organise recovery of vehicle of my insurance or farmers insurance?

Sorry for all the questions!

Mightydrumming

Del2005 wrote: »

You'll be held partially responsible for the crash because you were driving too fast to be able to stop safely on your side of the road in the distance that you can see.

Then it depends on how secure the field that the animals escaped from was, you will need to proof negligence on the farmers behal to be able to sue them. Because animals, mostly 2 legged
and not wearing reflective clothing or carrying a torch, are to be expected on county roads at night you should be driving slower.

Thanks for the reply!

I was doing the speed limit, the road is pitch black and no signs on the road for animals. I was of the understanding that it would be up to the owner of the livestock to make sure they are secure at all times?

padohaodha

That's the farmer's fault.No question...

PaulKK

Del2005 wrote: »

You'll be held partially responsible for the crash because you were driving too fast to be able to stop safely on your side of the road in the distance that you can see.

Then it depends on how secure the field that the animals escaped from was, you will need to proof negligence on the farmers behal to be able to sue them. Because animals, mostly 2 legged
and not wearing reflective clothing or carrying a torch, are to be expected on county roads at night you should be driving slower.

No need to be so condescending.

There is a duty of responsibility on all parties here. However the OP is not in the wrong.

Something like this happened to me many years ago. The gards said there was a control of animals law which applied. In my case it was on an 80km/h unlit R road with a heard of black cows running straight at me and I literally only saw them when they were almost on top of me after rounding a bend. I managed to almost stop but one of them nearly came through the windscreen.

The farmers insurance paid for all of my repairs.

To the point about traveling by foot on an unlit road, I was watching one of those UK police programs a few years ago and someone knocked down and killed a cyclist on a busy road at night. The cyclist was unlight and wearing dark clothing. The driver was not prosecuted due to not reasonably being expected to see the cyclist and poor position of the cyclist on the road.

It's all well and good criticising people for 'driving too fast' but put yourself in the position and you'd soon see how easily it can happen while driving well within the speed limit and at a suitable pace for the conditions.

marklazarcovic

100% farmers liability ,no question in this scenario.

Bullocks

marklazarcovic wrote: »

100% farmers liability ,no question in this scenario.

I wouldn't bet on it. Depends where the cows came from and had the farmer taken due care to contain them.

OldMrBrennan83

Bullocks wrote: »

I wouldn't bet on it. Depends where the cows came from and had the farmer taken due care to contain them.

They were on the road, so they obviously hadn't.

Fann Linn

I'd go back there this morning to the scene of the accident to look for similar looking cattle in the adjoining fields. You'll find they didn't travel too far from the herd.

Henryhill2

I hope you got the tag number,if you did it's a slam dunk

I know a couple of cases that went nowhere ,farmer got rid of the cows involved before the number was got

Bullocks

Patww79 wrote: »

They were on the road, so they obviously hadn't.

Fallen tree's have knocked a good few fences that farmers might not have seen yet after the storm last week, power gone from electric fencing or people leaving gates open are just some of the reasons the cattle may have escaped. I wouldn't say anything is too obvious yet

corks finest

padohaodha wrote: »

That's the farmer's fault.No question...

Correct,animals front and back have to be minded,end of

Bullocks

corks finest wrote: »

Correct,animals front and back have to be minded,end of

It's not if they are wandering stock that have escaped

jooksavage

Farmes liability. Up to last month my farm was completely landlocked but i inherited a few fields with road frontage and FBD advised me that I'd need to up my policy to cover accidents like this.

troyzer

I nearly hit a massive red kangaroo buck in Western Australia last year. It was about 80kg and they actually hop towards the light when they see it. He was probably moving around 40kmh.

Luckily there was enough space for a run off but I was doing well under the speed limit. I remember because my girlfriend was in the car and she was constantly telling me to slow down because she's such a nervous passenger. I was going around 80km in a 110km zone and I didn't see him until he was about 30m away.

Pretty scary stuff, he would have gone straight through the windscreen and killed us.

If it was a black cow on a winding road with no run off, I can easily see how the OP could hit them even if they were the safest driver in the world.

Eggs For Dinner

Liability rests fully with the farmer (it's different if you hit a person in the same circumstances). Your difficulty lies with finding the owner and if he has insurance. Even if he doesn't have insurance, you can always sue him, but that is a slow process

Henryhill2

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Liability rests fully with the farmer (it's different if you hit a person in the same circumstances). Your difficulty lies with finding the owner and if he has insurance. Even if he doesn't have insurance, you can always sue him, but that is a slow process

They all have insurance

freedominacup

Henryhill2 wrote: »

I hope you got the tag number,if you did it's a slam dunk

I know a couple of cases that went nowhere ,farmer got rid of the cows involved before the number was got

I doubt you know of many in the past 20 years tbh. Once one of the gardai who attended the accident took a note if the tag numbers then there will be no question about ownership of the cattle op. There can be some question about level of liability if the farmer has complied with regs relating to stockproof fencing. He should have public liability insurance as a normal business practice but there is no legal requirement to have it.

Edit. The law may have changed recently but there was a question in the past if the land the cattle came from was properly fenced. There would always be a liability on the farmer but there was sometimes a liability on the driver in relation to speed and driving conditions.

Henryhill2

freedominacup wrote: »

I doubt you know of many in the past 20 years tbh. Once one of the gardai who attended the accident took a note if the tag numbers then there will be no question about ownership of the cattle op. There can be some question anout level of liability if the farmer has complied with regs relating to stockproof fencing. He should have public liability insurance as a normal business practice nut there is no legal requirement to have it.

Last one bout 8 years ago the gard went after the cow but he was gone back into the field ,Gard didn't get the number,no proof and no claim.

Another case the driver left the scene with dead cow on road, when he got back cow was gone.

cdeb

Mightydrumming wrote: »

Thanks for the reply!

I was doing the speed limit, the road is pitch black

I would have thought this would stand against you tbh.

The speed limit is a max speed, not the recommended speed. You need to take other factors - eg it being pitch dark - into account when working out what speed to drive at. Doing the speed limit on a pitch black country road sounds like driving too fast.

That's not to take away from the farmer's liability - but it may mean the insurance company would look to split the blame to an extent

jooksavage

Henryhill2 wrote: »

They all have insurance

No we don't. I specifically had to update my policy to cover livestock in road accidents.

Eggs For Dinner

Henryhill2 wrote: »

They all have insurance

I can assure you they don't

whelan2

Henryhill2 wrote: »

Last one bout 8 years ago the gard went after the cow but he was gone back into the field ,Gard didn't get the number,no proof and no claim.

Another case the driver left the scene with dead cow on road, when he got back cow was gone.

In fairness the driver shouldnt have left without taking note of the tag, it is like taking a reg plate of a car

Squatman

Del2005 wrote: »

You'll be held partially responsible for the crash because you were driving too fast to be able to stop safely on your side of the road in the distance that you can see.

Then it depends on how secure the field that the animals escaped from was, you will need to proof negligence on the farmers behal to be able to sue them. Because animals, mostly 2 legged
and not wearing reflective clothing or carrying a torch, are to be expected on county roads at night you should be driving slower.

OP dont read this drivel

Squatman

cdeb wrote: »

I would have thought this would stand against you tbh.

The speed limit is a max speed, not the recommended speed. You need to take other factors - eg it being pitch dark - into account when working out what speed to drive at. Doing the speed limit on a pitch black country road sounds like driving too fast.

That's not to take away from the farmer's liability - but it may mean the insurance company would look to split the blame to an extent

Drivel aswell. pitch black is why head lights were invented. the above post is absurd.

Squatman

Fann Linn wrote: »

I'd go back there this morning to the scene of the accident to look for similar looking cattle in the adjoining fields. You'll find they didn't travel too far from the herd.

similar looking cattle? this thread is nuts

deathtocaptcha

PaulKK wrote: »

It's all well and good criticising people for 'driving too fast' but put yourself in the position and you'd soon see how easily it can happen while driving well within the speed limit and at a suitable pace for the conditions.

I wouldn't call driving *at* the speed limit on a dark country road at night a suitable pace...

Headlights provide reasonable stopping distance - certainly enough to see a stationary object and hit the brakes in advance of colliding with it to help minimise impact... if you don't even have a chance to process what's in front of you and react by hitting the brakes, I'd say speed is absolutely a factor.

Fann Linn

Squatman wrote: »

similar looking cattle? this thread is nuts

Why? Do Fresians and Jerseys look the same?

TheChizler

PaulKK wrote: »

To the point about traveling by foot on an unlit road, I was watching one of those UK police programs a few years ago and someone knocked down and killed a cyclist on a busy road at night. The cyclist was unlight and wearing dark clothing. The driver was not prosecuted due to not reasonably being expected to see the cyclist and poor position of the cyclist on the road.

Off topic but I was absolutely seething watching that. The driver left the scene leaving the cyclist to die on the side of the road. The police only found her because her father called them after finding a person-shaped hole in the windscreen and blood. It's madness that the attitude now is that the person using the road legally is at fault because they didn't make themselves more visible. There is no legal obligation to wear high vis. or position yourself out of the way (of course it's sensible), but there is a legal obligation on the driver to have lights in working order, use them, and drive with due care and attention. If you can't see around a corner then don't drive fast around that corner.

Back on topic, I imagine the farmer's insurance will admit full responsibility, regardless of my opinion on driving at safe speeds on country roads, this situation is common enough.

Edit: forgot the cyclist was unlit so I guess there would have been shared legal responsibility, but I was just pissed off there was zero legal repercussion for the person going too fast for the conditions who left the scene of a fatal accident.

jooksavage

Speculation about speed of the driver here is irrelevant. We don't know for sure if the OP's speed was reasonable for the type of road they were traveling and we don't know the condition of the road surface. The one party who was DEFINITELY at fault here was the individual whose cattle were on the road (and I say this as a farmer).

nuac

Mod
Squatman, pls be civil here

amcalester

Isn't there strict liability in terms of damage by livestock in Ireland?

nuac

Mightydrumming
Congrats on surviving this collision. Suggest you consult your solicitor for legal advice

Hitman3000

Farmer is fully liable.

Henryhill2

Fann Linn wrote: »

Why? Do Fresians and Jerseys look the same?

Will count for nothing

I seen a case where 2 gards followed a cow into the field of cows

They didn't get the tag number so that was the end of the matter

TheChizler

Henryhill2 wrote: »

Will count for nothing

I seen a case where 2 gards followed a cow into the field of cows

They didn't get the tag number so that was the end of the matter

I imagine in this case the broken legs might be a dead giveaway.

Turnipman

TheChizler wrote: »

I imagine in this case the broken legs might be a dead giveaway.

Presumably the injured livestock will need to be be put down.

If so, would the assistance of a vet be required, in which case surely he would have to record the tag numbers of the cattle involved?

Henryhill2

Turnipman wrote: »

Presumably the injured livestock will need to be be put down.

If so, would the assistance of a vet be required, in which case surely he would have to record the tag numbers of the cattle involved?

You're thinking of pets

Cow will be hauled off to a meat plant

Bullocks

Henryhill2 wrote: »

You're thinking of pets

Cow will be hauled off to a meat plant

Not with broken legs, not a hope a meat plant will take them if they can't walk out of a truck/trailer

rovertom

Bullocks wrote: »

Not with broken legs, not a hope a meat plant will take them if they can't walk out of a truck/trailer

If you didn't get tag numbers, it will be a lost cause.
There is an old law also about commonage- if animals stray from open commonage onto road, farmer is not negligent but this is unlikely to be the case.
Just be careful. Your own insurer will offer to handle claim, and seek to recover costs from other party. From experience, my insurer didn't bother their ass chasing other party for small claim and left it against my policy.

whelan2

Henryhill2 wrote: »

You're thinking of pets

Cow will be hauled off to a meat plant

They will go to a knackery. Knackery lorry driver will fill out the paperwork for them. You seem to think you know a lot about farming. Get your facts straight please

BarryD2

Mightydrumming wrote: »

Thanks for the reply!

I was doing the speed limit, the road is pitch black and no signs on the road for animals. I was of the understanding that it would be up to the owner of the livestock to make sure they are secure at all times?

I sympathise with your accident, quite a shock when it happens and will take time to recover both physically but also driving confidence etc.

However more details are probably needed. What sort of rural road are you talking about, big difference between a 'regional road' where two cars will pass in comfort without slowing and narrower country roads where caution is often needed. The speed limit may be 80kph on both but whilst you could do this usually safely on the former, you'd be mad to be driving at 80kph on many minor country roads. In other words, the speed limit is just that.. a limit. You're under an obligation to drive at a speed that suits the situation.

jooksavage

Again with the speed. The only party categorically at fault here is the owner of the livestock (and I'm not condemning the farmer - these things happen and that's why we pay insurance). It will be nigh on impossible to determine to what extent the OP's speed contributed to the collision.

As per the MOD NOTE, OP should contact solicitor straight away.

Hitman3000

BarryD2 wrote:

However more details are probably needed. What sort of rural road are you talking about, big difference between a 'regional road' where two cars will pass in comfort without slowing and narrower country roads where caution is often needed. The speed limit may be 80kph on both but whilst you could do this usually safely on the former, you'd be mad to be driving at 80kph on many minor country roads. In other words, the speed limit is just that.. a limit. You're under an obligation to drive at a speed that suits the situation.

The question of speed, road conditions or time are all irrelevant. As an animal owner you are required to have control over them and secure to secure your property.

cdeb

But as a road user, you are required to drive with due care with regards the conditions. I think we can agree that if the OP was doing 100mph, there'd be an issue. Therefore the speed is relevant. Maybe it's 5% of what caused the crash, but it can't be outright dismissed as irrelevant.

The OP has said they were doing the speed limit and I've no reason at all to doubt that, but it doesn't follow that doing the speed limit = not driving too fast. Especially at night when visibility - even with headlamps - is reduced.

GreeBo

Squatman wrote: »

Drivel aswell. pitch black is why head lights were invented. the above post is absurd.

So what if instead of a cow the OP had driven into the back of a stopped car?

Would that be the fault of the driver of the stopped car or would the OP, who has now driven into a stationary vehicle at 80kph, absolved of all blame?

Hitman3000

GreeBo wrote:

Would that be the fault of the driver of the stopped car or would the OP, who has now driven into a stationary vehicle at 80kph, absolved of all blame?

So now we bring in a whataboutery strawman.Time to go .

GreeBo

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So now we bring in a whataboutery strawman.Time to go .

No, we are back to driving with due care and consideration of the conditions.
I don't drive around a blind corner in Dublin at the speed limit because it would be irresponsible since I cant see around that corner.

This fact doesnt just magically disappear because it was "down the country"

Hitman3000

GreeBo wrote:

No, we are back to driving with due care and consideration of the conditions. I don't drive around a blind corner in Dublin at the speed limit because it would be irresponsible since I cant see around that corner.

So you wouldn't drive around a corner at a posted speed limit of 30km. The speed limit on most rural roads is 80km. As a rural dweller I frequently drive at this speed and have never had a problem avoiding hazards. Came close with a horse before as they are easily spooked and unpredictable. Wouldn't have happened though if his owner had him secured in its paddock.