Drugs in Racing

tryfix

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I’m not denying they are fair and legitimate questions. But for example Russia went from a low ranking winter Olympic nation to top of the pile in 2014. They dominated events like race walking and a lot of athletic events where the Africans didn’t have a monopoly which was less the case for the East Germans. The link in both cases is the state, everybody else may be doing it too, just not with the tacit approval and even blessing of the state. In the UK and USA they are actually desperate to catch the dopers, that’s the big difference.

How effective they are at that is the question and the big concern for racing I would suggest.

Your points about the Russians in the winter Olympics is exactly the kind of suspicious activity that screams drug enhancement. It's just naive to swallow the outrage from the UK and USA about other countries drug taking.

To perform magic you have to distract the audience by getting them to look at one hand while the other unwatched hand is doing the dirty work.


International Sports is unfortunately War by another name, while the individuals who are doing the testing are earnest in their pursuits there's a layer of officials up the ranks who don't want to see their National Athletes lose out on National glory. Once a coaching organisation knows the rules they can then work around them with designer drugs and TUEs etc to circumvent the testers.

Joe_ Public

tryfix wrote: »

Your points about the Russians in the winter Olympics is exactly the kind of suspicious activity that screams drug enhancement. It's just naive to swallow the outrage from the UK and USA about other countries drug taking.

To perform magic you have to distract the audience by getting them to look at one hand while the other unwatched hand is doing the dirty work.


International Sports is unfortunately War by another name, while the individuals who are doing the testing are earnest in their pursuits there's a layer of officials up the ranks who don't want to see their National Athletes lose out on National glory. Once a coaching organisation knows the rules they can then work around them with designer drugs and TUEs etc to circumvent the testers.

That’s certainly true to some extent. While it’s easy to hammer the likes of athletics and cycling over the level of doping, those sports have at least made sincere efforts to tackle the issue, albeit under a certain amount of duress it has to be said. Other sports, meanwhile, do next to nothing and actively, in some cases, try to hide the problem - cf all those “silent” bans in golf for one example.

In the end it comes down to appetite to apply the rules. Does racing really want to tackle doping or will it be merely content to nab the odd low hanging fruit every now and again and use it as evidence of a zero tolerance policy? Every sport has been in that position one time or another.

Kauto

Joe_ Public wrote: »

That’s certainly true to some extent. While it’s easy to hammer the likes of athletics and cycling over the level of doping, those sports have at least made sincere efforts to tackle the issue, albeit under a certain amount of duress it has to be said. Other sports, meanwhile, do next to nothing and actively, in some cases, try to hide the problem - cf all those “silent” bans in golf for one example.

In the end it comes down to appetite to apply the rules. Does racing really want to tackle doping or will it be merely content to nab the odd low hanging fruit every now and again and use it as evidence of a zero tolerance policy? Every sport has been in that position one time or another.

The sport you hear next to nothing about drugs is the sport that involves the most money. There simply has to be lots of doping in soccer with the sums of money involved. You hear stories about Barcelona back in the day and the cloud that hung over them but very little over last number of years.

Anyways back to racing, I think we can all agree that's is rotten to the core.

BumperD

Russians aside (!), the biggest welching in recent years was not to pursue further the list of names kept by the vet in Ireland who was caught with a huge haul of steroids, not pursued due to initials rather than names being on the list. He should have been made to cough up the full names to confirm those who were habitually using illegal drugs on their horses. The decision not to run that down was two fingers to those playing by the rules.

Kauto

BumperD wrote: »

Russians aside (!), the biggest welching in recent years was not to pursue further the list of names kept by the vet in Ireland who was caught with a huge haul of steroids, not pursued due to initials rather than names being on the list. He should have been made to cough up the full names to confirm those who were habitually using illegal drugs on their horses. The decision not to run that down was two fingers to those playing by the rules.

Bumper anyone that is having any success is not playing by the rules. You simply can't compete unless your on the stuff. The advantage the big lads have is that they can actually afford it.

ANDREWMUFC

Does anyone think Gosden’s or O’Briens horses are drugged up

tryfix

ANDREWMUFC wrote: »

Does anyone think Gosden’s or O’Briens horses are drugged up

They are two very different operations, O'Brien's operation takes in industrial quantities of the best bloodlines and wants to get as many black type wins into them as possible. Gosden is more into training to win prestige races for the glory it brings to the owners who support him. I'd assume that they have the best medicine available that wouldn't necessarily be breaking the letter of the law but it might be breaking the spirit of the law.

In O'Brien's case he has more than enough beautifully bred bloodstock as raw material to justify the results he's getting from them. In fact it's amazing how few really highly rated horses O'Brien has trained, IIRC only Galileo OR 130 and Hawk Wing OR 137? and that was 15 years ago. He's had nothing hitting OR 130 in the last 15 years. You rarely see O'Brien horses being pushed out to win as far as possible in big races, maybe they don't need the attention that high ratings would bring their way or maybe they're always training for the next race and minding the horses.

In the last few years Gosden has had Golden Horn OR 130, Cracksman OR 130 and the filly Enable OR 128 = equivalent OR 131 colt performance with the 3lbs fillies sex allowance.

Of the two at the moment Gosden's are more suspect.

EDIT: oops the moment changed pretty quickly as Gosden comes crashing back down and O'Brien goes flying by him.

Kauto

ANDREWMUFC wrote: »

Does anyone think Gosden’s or O’Briens horses are drugged up

LOL to that Andrew. The innocence. Two of the most powerful trainers in the world.

tryfix

Kauto wrote: »

LOL to that Andrew. The innocence. Two of the most powerful trainers in the world.

True and then there's the good old USA where listed to group class European imports suddenly find 10-12lbs of form they didn't know they had.

Gosden started his training career in California where he quickly made his way to the top table.

sdoc13

lemush wrote:

The “punishment†handed out to Hanlon sums up why the sport is such a laughing stock at times. Absolute joke.

tryfix wrote:

True and then there's the good old USA where listed to group class European imports suddenly find 10-12lbs of form they didn't know they had.

Would that fact not lead to the conclusion that they raced relatively clean in Europe then. We all know the improvement in the US is drug related.

tryfix

sdoc13 wrote: »

Would that fact not lead to the conclusion that they raced relatively clean in Europe then. We all know the improvement in the US is drug related.

Relatively clean being the words, on the whole European trainers seem to not produce the extraordinary improvement types which are usually older geldings which seems to be type of horse necessary to get the best out of the Lasix type drugs they use in the US.

Kauto

tryfix wrote: »

Relatively clean being the words, on the whole European trainers seem to not produce the extraordinary improvement types which are usually older geldings which seems to be type of horse necessary to get the best out of the Lasix type drugs they use in the US.

There are a number of trainers in Ireland and England that seem to be able to improve horses they get from other stables by 2 stone and more. Now the trainers they are coming from are probably useless but still......

antietam

Kauto wrote: »

Ah now, Al Zarrooni went rouge and chartered a plan full of drugs for himself

Some people are so gullible.

Could name 20 trainers that there is no doubt are using the best of stuff between here and UK. The problem the small trainer has is getting a vet to play ball and the cost of the stuff is obscene.

I would go so far as to say there is no trainer in Ireland making money from training racehorses. Making money from selling horses yes bit not training.

Fist time ever to be called gullible."the cost of the stuff is obscene" how do you know.Can you give examples based on fact.

Motivator

antietam wrote: »

Fist time ever to be called gullible."the cost of the stuff is obscene" how do you know.Can you give examples based on fact.

He can’t give examples because he’s making it up. Some absolute bollocks being written on this thread by fellas that haven’t a clue.

Odelay

What I don't get is if so many are at it and everyone has a recording device in their pocket, how come there isn't evidence of it? If it is so widespread how come someone with a grudge hasn't gone to the press? Lord knows there is plenty of people with grudges in racing yards.

STB.

Odelay wrote: »

What I don't get is if so many are at it and everyone has a recording device in their pocket, how come there isn't evidence of it? If it is so widespread how come someone with a grudge hasn't gone to the press? Lord knows there is plenty of people with grudges in racing yards.

You are assuming that everything gets to the newspapers. At national level, the industry generates close on 2 billion to the economy and provides close on 29000 jobs. I won't even go into the hundreds of millions in exported bloodstock. Must be knife edge stuff to balance public interest and manage economic ramifications!

At local level, and like any competitive sport there are going to be people taking short cuts. Horse racing is no different. Then money becomes involved. Be it betting or survival.

In Ireland even with the newly published anti doping regime, prior day notice is still given for random testing.

So far this year there have been 21 positive tests for prohibited substances. Of this 21, 13 involved horses that won, that were subsequently disqualified for these positive results. Other cases are pending.

To put that 21 in perspective, there weren't that many collective positives in the previous 3-4 years.

Coincidentally, this dramatic increase coincides with the moves from the previous testing done in Limerick to a new lab testing in England since February. Conspiracy theorists will jump on this from both sides!

Racing regulator has ground to make up in credibility stakes - Today's Irish Times

Kauto

Motivator wrote: »

He can’t give examples because he’s making it up. Some absolute bollocks being written on this thread by fellas that haven’t a clue.

What evidence do you want me to give you?

Im not going to name trainers or people i have talked to about it. I know its a huge problem at the moment. You think Philip Fenton was a isolated case?

Vet caught in leading yard with banned medicines a one off? Nothing to see here

Auroras_encore

amazing that there's so many posters in the know but never put up a winner

zpehtsfd

Kauto wrote: »

There are a number of trainers in Ireland and England that seem to be able to improve horses they get from other stables by 2 stone and more. Now the trainers they are coming from are probably useless but still......

It's ridiculous to assume these trainers are cheating if a horse improves a stone or two for them. I personally know of one horse that left a bad trainer when rated 80 (aged 6) and within 2 years he had a rating of 133. The owners knew the horse had potential but when it was clear the trainer was not getting the best out of him they moved stables. They felt bad taking him out of that yard, cause he was a small trainer, and the horse actually ran 15 times before they said enough was enough. The owners of the horse also breed and are avid horse racing fans. There is no way they would have used the new trainer if they thought anything illegal was going on.

The trainers that are improving horses are doing so because they don't take on horses from other yards unless they think they can improve them to win and these trainers normally have access to the best facilities and personal in the industry.

I'm not naive enough to think there aren't more cases like Fenton but still .....

Kauto

zpehtsfd wrote: »

It's ridiculous to assume these trainers are cheating if a horse improves a stone or two for them. I personally know of one horse that left a bad trainer when rated 80 (aged 6) and within 2 years he had a rating of 133. The owners knew the horse had potential but when it was clear the trainer was not getting the best out of him they moved stables. They felt bad taking him out of that yard, cause he was a small trainer, and the horse actually ran 15 times before they said enough was enough. The owners of the horse also breed and are avid horse racing fans. There is no way they would have used the new trainer if they thought anything illegal was going on.

The trainers that are improving horses are doing so because they don't take on horses from other yards unless they think they can improve them to win and these trainers normally have access to the best facilities and personal in the industry.

I'm not naive enough to think there aren't more cases like Fenton but still .....

Sure anyone clown could improve one from the likes of Rothwell by a stone or two.

Kauto

Auroras_encore wrote: »

amazing that there's so many posters in the know but never put up a winner

Why would you bother putting up a 'winner' on a forum if in the know?

antietam

Motivator wrote: »

He can’t give examples because he’s making it up. Some absolute bollocks being written on this thread by fellas that haven’t a clue.

You are correct to a certain degree. Drugs is a serious problem my Daughter has moved to America as an equine vet to get away from Ireland.She refused certain stables as a west of Ireland lass she said no.

Motivator

antietam wrote: »

You are correct to a certain degree. Drugs is a serious problem my Daughter has moved to America as an equine vet to get away from Ireland.She refused certain stables as a west of Ireland lass she said no.

Your post makes absolutely no sense

Joe_ Public

Good move going to America in fairness, definitely no use of drugs in horse racing over there!

antietam

Motivator wrote: »

Your post makes absolutely no sense

I have a lot to say but I cant.I think everyone knows me and I need people to talk about drugs in racing its staggering beyond belief.I personally don't care what you think of me but drugs is everything.Drugs is the staple diet of certain trainers but the HRI turn a complete blind eye because like Chicago of the 20's everyone has a price.

antietam

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Good move going to America in fairness, definitely no use of drugs in horse racing over there!

She is a gestation farm.

tryfix

Horse racing has a culture of cheating.

Its problem is drugs. It's what the public calls doping. The methods differ, as do the drugs.

At one end of the spectrum, horsemen and veterinarians inject horses on race day with a wide variety of drugs or other foreign substances.

This practice is one of racing's dirty little secrets, although it's no secret to those who work in the stable area of a racetrack.

There exists a thick, bright line in racing regulation known as the 24-hour rule. This rule prohibits the administration of any drug or foreign substance, other than the anti-bleeder medication Salix (furosemide), within 24 hours of a horse's race. A few states have specific exceptions. This bright line is crossed with such regularity that its practitioners have become blind to its existence.

Horsemen rationalize this cheating by convincing themselves that they are just “helping” the horse. Many of the race day injections are to manage pain, mitigate bleeding, or calm a fractious horse. Several of these drugs are endogenous to the horse and go undetected in post-race testing. The “helping” of the horse is code for “it's not cheating if you don't get caught.”

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/combating-culture-cheating/


That's the lay of the land in the US. It's pretty brutal over there where even the best of horses are often just bits of meat to be exploited.

It's not that bad here but monkey see, monkey do. Shur only a fool wouldn't want their horses to be in the best physical condition possible?

It's easy to see why the prestige races would be so cutthroat that every trick would be used to win them, but what kind of access to doping could a small barely successful trainer afford for bread and butter races?

BumperD

Auroras_encore wrote: »

amazing that there's so many posters in the know but never put up a winner

This is a discussion on drugs in the sport, not a tipping/ fancies thread.

As an aside, I see you putting up just names of horses and times they run on a daily basis with ZERO rationale, hardly worth blowing your vuvuzela about as only a fool would follow them selections blindly.

Auroras_encore

BumperD wrote: »

This is a discussion on drugs in the sport, not a tipping/ fancies thread.

As an aside, I see you putting up just names of horses and times they run on a daily basis with ZERO rationale, hardly worth blowing your vuvuzela about as only a fool would follow them selections blindly.

And yet I keep firing winners in without posting a load of waffle

BumperD

Auroras_encore wrote: »

And yet I keep firing winners in without posting a load of waffle

Good , now back on topic cheers