Stabilising heavily spalted timber

chillyspoon

Hi all,

This is a direct follow up from my sealing thread. We milled the ash logs yesterday. Some of it's too far gone to use, some of it is stunning and I think that some of it can be stabilised but it's something I've never done before.

Can anyone recommend any products for stabilising heavily spalted timber and when in the drying process you're meant to do it (perhaps you wait until it's ready to use?)?

Gratuitous milling shot:



Cheers

magicbastarder

Devore (not seen him on the forum recently) uses resin and a vacuum chamber, but that's for doing much smaller pieces intended for turning.

MickeyShtyles

chillyspoon wrote: »

Hi all,

This is a direct follow up from my sealing thread. We milled the ash logs yesterday. Some of it's too far gone to use, some of it is stunning and I think that some of it can be stabilised but it's something I've never done before.

Can anyone recommend any products for stabilising heavily spalted timber and when in the drying process you're meant to do it (perhaps you wait until it's ready to use?)?

Gratuitous milling shot:



Cheers

Filling cracks and the like is it?

magicbastarder

i'm assuming it's more than just cracks - it's about 'punky' wood which has become soft due to fungus.

i've a couple of nice birch pieces in the shed, which if you put on the lathe, tear much more easily than they cut - i assume that's what the OP is referring to.

timfromtang

chillyspoon wrote: »

Hi all,

This is a direct follow up from my sealing thread. We milled the ash logs yesterday. Some of it's too far gone to use, some of it is stunning and I think that some of it can be stabilised but it's something I've never done before.

Can anyone recommend any products for stabilising heavily spalted timber and when in the drying process you're meant to do it (perhaps you wait until it's ready to use?)?

Gratuitous milling shot:



Cheers

My Father used to use cyanoacrylate glue for this, he used 3 different grades (thin, medium, and thick) according to the condition of the wood he was treating. the wood was first dried, often roughed down to near finished size with VERY SHARP tools, then treated with superglue to harden the surface before finishing.


Lovely sawmill by the way, was it expensive? I use a Logosol B751 which I am very happy with.


tim

chillyspoon

Thanks all for the info - yes it's for treating soft areas in otherwise good boards. From some scouting about I think that there's a quick and steep slide in terms of the scale of the workpiece compared to the cost required to stabilise, and whether or not it's even worth doing so as a result. So I think that unfortunately a hefty portion of this lot will just be fancy looking firewood

The mill wasn't mine Tim - it's very rare for us to have a tree to cut down, so I couldn't justify one although the man maths keeps trying. I've no idea how much it cost!

dathi

has anyone used PEG. (polyethylene glycol) to stabilize wood i remember a guy using it to stabilize wood for turning years ago

kadman

dathi wrote: »

has anyone used PEG. (polyethylene glycol) to stabilize wood i remember a guy using it to stabilize wood for turning years ago

I,ve used it many years ago. But its not going to

do a lot in this situation for dozey wood.

kadman

Crystal clear resin perhaps?

recipio

Have a look at Matt Cremona over on the tube. He has a video on it .

tabby aspreme

Ronseal wood hardener would be worth a try on spalted timber

Odelay

I don't understand, what is stabilising? What are you looking to achieve? I can offer advice if I know the goal.

MickeyShtyles

Odelay wrote: »

I don't understand, what is stabilising? What are you looking to achieve? I can offer advice if I know the goal.

Spalted timber goes a bit foamy....
The lads are trying to make the timber usable.
West Systems is what I use, expensive but does the job nicely!

magicbastarder

i'm kinda curious what advice can be offered from someone who doesn't know what stabilising spalted timber means.

MickeyShtyles

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm kinda curious what advice can be offered from someone who doesn't know what stabilising spalted timber means.

Odelay is a farmer the same as myself so I wouldn’t knock him for six just yet.

chillyspoon

All advice and opinions welcome .. I didn't know what spalted meant myself until a couple of years ago, despite growing up in a house where my Dad had made most of the furniture, including several spalted pieces.

Thanks for all the replies; when it dries enough to use (it's still about 20% so it'll be a while) I'm going try a couple of the suggested approaches on some of the gnarlier bits to see what works. I reckon I'll try a two part free-flowing resin like the West Systems ones first.

I expect that some of the timber will just be too far gone versus the cost (including time) of making it workable.

Thanks all

MickeyShtyles

chillyspoon wrote: »

All advice and opinions welcome .. I didn't know what spalted meant myself until a couple of years ago, despite growing up in a house where my Dad had made most of the furniture, including several spalted pieces.

Thanks for all the replies; when it dries enough to use (it's still about 20% so it'll be a while) I'm going try a couple of the suggested approaches on some of the gnarlier bits to see what works. I reckon I'll try a two part free-flowing resin like the West Systems ones first.

I expect that some of the timber will just be too far gone versus the cost (including time) of making it workable.

Thanks all

What sorta size are the pieces?

chillyspoon

MickeyShtyles wrote: »

What sorta size are the pieces?

Everything from scraps up to 9ft x 20" boards - some of it solid and some of it is sponge (the log on the mill up top is the actual one)

OAOB

Hey Chillyspoon, have the same problems with some tree rings i'm hoping to make into coffee tables. Have you used the West Systems yet and how did it work out?
Also at what stage do you think it should be applied? I have the tree rings taken down to nearly their final thickness so need to harden the soft spots now but the timber has a lot of drying still to do

chillyspoon

I haven't tried it yet OAOB - the timber's still in the high teens for moisture content. I'm not sure when it'll be ready; the shed isn't exactly what I'd called "weather proof" and I've nowhere else to dry it

OAOB

chillyspoon wrote: »

I haven't tried it yet OAOB - the timber's still in the high teens for moisture content. I'm not sure when it'll be ready; the shed isn't exactly what I'd called "weather proof" and I've nowhere else to dry it

Thanks for that, I didn't know you had to wait for it to dry out before stabilising it.
Is there any reason you're going for west systems over more common products like Ronseal wood hardener?

chillyspoon

OAOB wrote: »

Is there any reason you're going for west systems over more common products like Ronseal wood hardener?

To be honest; because I overlooked Tabby's suggestion above and didn't know it existed!

The first project I have planned with this timber is a tiny river side table, so I think the two part epoxy is the appropriate thing for that.

The Ronseal appears to be a liquid soak rather than something that can be used to fill as well - is that correct?

OAOB

chillyspoon wrote: »

To be honest; because I overlooked Tabby's suggestion above and didn't know it existed!

The first project I have planned with this timber is a tiny river side table, so I think the two part epoxy is the appropriate thing for that.

The Ronseal appears to be a liquid soak rather than something that can be used to fill as well - is that correct?

I think i'll need to eventually use the epoxy to fill a few cracks that are starting to appear but was hoping to try fix the punky wood now with the hardener. The Ronseal just soaks in and hardens it. I'm hoping it will soak in far enough that the wood will be hard all the way through as i've to take at least another inch off

I'm not really sure what i'm doing here but seemed a shame to just split and burn the timber so will try save a few pieces and make coffee tables. It could become an expensive hobby here quickly

MickeyShtyles

OAOB wrote: »

I think i'll need to eventually use the epoxy to fill a few cracks that are starting to appear but was hoping to try fix the punky wood now with the hardener. The Ronseal just soaks in and hardens it. I'm hoping it will soak in far enough that the wood will be hard all the way through as i've to take at least another inch off

I'm not really sure what i'm doing here but seemed a shame to just split and burn the timber so will try save a few pieces and make coffee tables. It could become an expensive hobby here quickly

Speaking from experience, I wouldn’t bother with the Ronseal.
I’ve made a few coffee tables with live edge slabs over the last year. I first used Gorilla Glue’s two part epoxy and it was good, but it wasn’t great.
Did a nice bitta reading online and came across West System’s Epoxy.
It might be expensive, but it’s only expensive the first day.
You can build it up in layers, it’ll fill cracks and checks. Ya can then sand it down after.
On another note, the Ronseal may cause discoloration to the work, the epoxy won’t. It does make pure shyte of sandpaper so just make sure you’ve a good bit!

OAOB

MickeyShtyles wrote: »

Speaking from experience, I wouldn’t bother with the Ronseal.
I’ve made a few coffee tables with live edge slabs over the last year. I first used Gorilla Glue’s two part epoxy and it was good, but it wasn’t great.
Did a nice bitta reading online and came across West System’s Epoxy.
It might be expensive, but it’s only expensive the first day.
You can build it up in layers, it’ll fill cracks and checks. Ya can then sand it down after.
On another note, the Ronseal may cause discoloration to the work, the epoxy won’t. It does make pure shyte of sandpaper so just make sure you’ve a good bit!

Great information so thanks for that. I think i'll avoid Ronseal and go for the West Systems so.

Should i hold off on using the epoxy until i have the pieces down to the final thickness?

I'm really eager to start this but the moisture content is way too high still. Have moved two pieces into the house to dry quicker (and not crack too much):D

OAOB

MickeyShtyles wrote: »

Speaking from experience, I wouldn’t bother with the Ronseal.
I’ve made a few coffee tables with live edge slabs over the last year. I first used Gorilla Glue’s two part epoxy and it was good, but it wasn’t great.
Did a nice bitta reading online and came across West System’s Epoxy.
It might be expensive, but it’s only expensive the first day.
You can build it up in layers, it’ll fill cracks and checks. Ya can then sand it down after.
On another note, the Ronseal may cause discoloration to the work, the epoxy won’t. It does make pure shyte of sandpaper so just make sure you’ve a good bit!

Great information so thanks for that. I think i'll avoid Ronseal and go for the West Systems so.

Should i hold off on using the epoxy until i have the pieces down to the final thickness?

I'm really eager to start this but the moisture content is way too high still. Have moved two pieces into the house to dry quicker (and not crack too much):D

MickeyShtyles

OAOB wrote: »

Great information so thanks for that. I think i'll avoid Ronseal and go for the West Systems so.

Should i hold off on using the epoxy until i have the pieces down to the final thickness?

I'm really eager to start this but the moisture content is way too high still. Have moved two pieces into the house to dry quicker (and not crack too much):D

Have a few pics of it?
I made the first one last summer. I just wanted to give it a go.
Had a lump of ash and just started.
Took about four weeks from start to finish. An evening here and there. I’ll try and dig out some pics.

Odelay

If you can do it, try getting it in an oven or kiln to reach a core temperature over 56 degrees for an hour. That will kill any bugs or mould.
I’m sure our moderator can check the post I deleted post to vouch for my credentials.

MickeyShtyles

Started this last night.
Could take a while!
Spalted beech, soft in places. One big hole, one smaller one.
I’ll see what I can do once it’s down to final thickness.

OAOB

I put up a detailed post on the coffee table construction over in the "what am i making thread" but the image below is one of the pieces with the punky wood that needs stabilising.

[IMG][/img]

It's hard to tell from the picture but a lot of the centre is very soft. The nice grain pattern is gone so not sure if it will ever look right.

Once the moisture level is down around 12% i'm going to coat it in the west systems and give it a day or two to fully harden. Then i'll take about 5mm off and see how it looks and feels then

chillyspoon

OAOB wrote: »

I put up a detailed post on the coffee table construction over in the "what am i making thread" but the image below is one of the pieces with the punky wood that needs stabilising.

[IMG][/img]

It's hard to tell from the picture but a lot of the centre is very soft. The nice grain pattern is gone so not sure if it will ever look right.

Once the moisture level is down around 12% i'm going to coat it in the west systems and give it a day or two to fully harden. Then i'll take about 5mm off and see how it looks and feels then

I'm very interested to see how you get on with that - the texture in the centre is identical to what I've got in the ash slabs I'll be working with.

MickeyShtyles

Had to get more epoxy yesterday.
Viking Marine in Dun Laoghaire have 1kg 105/205 West Systems Epoxy for €49.50.
Order it online though, tis a hoor of a place to get to.

magicbastarder

waller and wickham have it too, in baldoyle industrial estate.

chillyspoon

So here we are 2 years on and I'm finally using the first few pieces of the punky ash!

I'm making a coffee table as the first test. I've remove a massive rotten knot that goes the whole way and a rake of the white rotten area, you can see the pencil marks where I have some more of that stuff to remove this weekend.

I've secured two major cracks with a couple of bow ties in my spare time over the last few days.

My plan is to finish the shaping, the coffee resin the massive knot hole, then do the joinery for the legs and lastly stabilise and finish the surface before fitting the legs.

I'd welcome advice from any of you guys with greater experience about that sequence or just any of it really!

If nothing else, it's just good craic doing my first piece of furniture of this type.