Intimidation by a minor: is the parent legally responsible?

corkdave

Situation briefly is that children way under 10 years are making life miserable for a woman living alone in a city housing estate. Throwing stones at her windows. Shouting at her. Taking stuff from her garden. Scratching her car. She lives alone since her husband died. The City Council has offered to move her, but she loves her house and the memories of her life with her husband are tied up there. Also she has done nothing wrong and cannot see why she should be the one to move when all she wants is to live in peace. Gardai say they cannot intervene because the children are minors.
Yesterday a five year old threw stones at the windows and used a stick to break her letter box. She shouted at him to stop.
Hours later the child’s mum arrived at her door and screamed obscenities at her for shouting at her child. The scene lasted for a number of minutes.
The experience has shattered her. She is in her fifties and not in good health. Aside from leaving her home, does she have options in law?
Any comments appreciated.

thomasm

corkdave wrote: »

Situation briefly is that children way under 10 years are making life miserable for a woman living alone in a city housing estate. Throwing stones at her windows. Shouting at her. Taking stuff from her garden. Scratching her car. She lives alone since her husband died. The City Council has offered to move her, but she loves her house and the memories of her life with her husband are tied up there. Also she has done nothing wrong and cannot see why she should be the one to move when all she wants is to live in peace. Gardai say they cannot intervene because the children are minors.
Yesterday a five year old threw stones at the windows and used a stick to break her letter box. She shouted at him to stop.
Hours later the child’s mum arrived at her door and screamed obscenities at her for shouting at her child. The scene lasted for a number of minutes.
The experience has shattered her. She is in her fifties and not in good health. Aside from leaving her home, does she have options in law?
Any comments appreciated.

It’s not answering your question but how can that child be anything but a blight on society for the next 20-30 years with a parent like that. I feel sorry for the lady in question

backspin.

What sort of vermin would torment a widow like that. Is it in a council estate?

It's not good enough that the guards wash their hands of it.

Assetbacked

Coat some stones in poison.


I’m joking of course.

corkdave

backspin. wrote: »

Is it in a council estate? .

Yes.

Peregrinus

Vital information missing from the OP.

How did this situation come about?

Is it lots of children from the neighbourhood who are behaving like thisor just children of a particular family?

tuisginideach

Surely that's anti-social behaviour - council needs to step in and deal with the problem, not the victim.

delboythedub

INSTALL CCTV ???

Homer

You can get cheap cctv cameras that will record this little sh1ts activities and then bring him and/or his family to court and have them evicted as it’s fairly obvious they are living at the generosity of the local council :mad:

Mrs OBumble

tuisginideach wrote: »

Surely that's anti-social behaviour - council needs to step in and deal with the problem, not the victim.

Realistically, what can the council do? No judge will order an eviction in those circumstances.

The issue with legal recourse is that ferals have usually already got long criminal histories anyway: they don't fear legal action.


Personally I would consult with a local councillor from a political party which has a reputation for para legal solutions.

massy086

Call sf they will knee-cap them for yaðŸ˜ðŸ˜

Mod
Massyo86
Pls do not post again on this thread

bushcraft90

They are below the age of criminal responsibility (12) so the gardai can't charge them. Although it might be worth while talking to the local Garda juvenile liasion officer (specialist gardai who deal with children) who may have a talk with the families about it and see if anything can be done.

Alternatively when a child is below the age of criminal responsibility they fall under the jurisdiction of Tusla who I'm sure with proof might be interested in why the young children are allowed out without proper supervision again they probably won't do much but it will put pressure on the families

corkdave

Peregrinus wrote: »

Vital information missing from the OP.

How did this situation come about?

Is it lots of children from the neighbourhood who are behaving like thisor just children of a particular family?

Problem started some years after her husband died. Local children saw her as a soft target. The original group are now teenagers and no longer bother her. This is a new generation of younger children.

corks finest

Chav mammy/ chav kids,no responsibility,when seeing mammy boozing, shouting roaring, causing havoc with neighbours ,it's normal for these scrotes,have it here in carrigaline for years on/ off,price of living in a sinkhole,won't change,one gang opposite me have been brought to court for eviction,Cluid housing made a balls up of some paperwork, result chav and kid and partying continues

corkdave

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Personally I would consult with a local councillor from a political party which has a reputation for para legal solutions.

:eek:
Part of the problem is that she has no network of local friends. She is a quiet dignified woman who has no experience of having to fend for herself when faced with any threat.
Thanks for the suggestions though. I am contacting her this morning.

SexBobomb

If only we had some more Corkdaves about the place, fair play to you. It must be awful feeling under siege like that in your own home.

Doniekp

corkdave wrote: »

:eek:
Part of the problem is that she has no network of local friends. She is a quiet dignified woman who has no experience of having to fend for herself when faced with any threat.
Thanks for the suggestions though. I am contacting her this morning.

Fair play Dave, lots of people would just ignore the situation as its not effecting them.

the purple tin

Honestly I would tell her to cut her losses and move. Those children and their families are not going anywhere, and like you said these are a new wave of troublemakers; when they grow up another younger wave will take their place.
It's sad and it isn't right but these kids always look for the easy target and it looks like she has become their choice.

Dial Hard

corks finest wrote: »

Chav mammy/ chav kids,no responsibility,when seeing mammy boozing, shouting roaring, causing havoc with neighbours ,it's normal for these scrotes,have it here in carrigaline for years on/ off,price of living in a sinkhole,won't change,one gang opposite me have been brought to court for eviction,Cluid housing made a balls up of some paperwork, result chav and kid and partying continues

And Chav Daddy has absolutely no responsibility for the situation, no? :rolleyes:

the purple tin

Dial Hard wrote: »

And Chav Daddy has absolutely no responsibility for the situation, no? :rolleyes:

The Chav Daddy is quite often absent.

dhaughton99

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Realistically, what can the council do? No judge will order an eviction in those circumstances.

The issue with legal recourse is that ferals have usually already got long criminal histories anyway: they don't fear legal action.


Personally I would consult with a local councillor from a political party which has a reputation for para legal solutions.

When we went to a Labour councilor to get help dealing with a family bringing in a large gang of yobs to do their dirty work. She ended up trying to get some votes by going to the local paper saying that she was going to deal with anti social behavior in the area. Ended up on the front page, which made it 10 times worse as the yobs wanted to show that they didn’t care.

Tell me how

delboythedub wrote: »

INSTALL CCTV ???

Homer wrote: »

You can get cheap cctv cameras that will record this little sh1ts activities and then bring him and/or his family to court and have them evicted as it’s fairly obvious they are living at the generosity of the local council :mad:

CCTV is a completely different consideration now due to GDPR.

Even so, you'd have to have cameras covering all areas so that someone interfering with one camera would be seen on another. And even if you can set this up, expect one or more with their faces covered so they can't be identified to target the cameras.

My heart goes out to the lady mentioned in the OP. Wish she stood a better chance of getting support.

Kivaro

Unfortunately, this is a regular occurrence in a lot of estates around the country, and it goes across the social divide. From my experience, well-run estates with little anti-social activity is usually the result of parents participation.
Many kids are allowed to get away with harassing type of behaviour because of the parents' inaction. And when you go to the parent(s), many become immediately defensive and look at you as if you are the problem.

The correct societal response should be the legal route.
If your kids are misbehaving to the point of criminal damage and harassment, then their parents should be fined. The legal authorities of the State should be involved.

Claw Hammer

The council can warn the wrongdoers they will be moved. I threatened this on a brat from a council estate. I asked him if he wanted to move house. All messing stopped.

Widdensushi

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The council can warn the wrongdoers they will be moved. I threatened this on a brat from a council estate. I asked him if he wanted to move house. All messing stopped.

He probably thought you were asking him to move in with you,scared him rightly.

Marcusm

Tell me how wrote: »

CCTV is a completely different consideration now due to GDPR.

Even so, you'd have to have cameras covering all areas so that someone interfering with one camera would be seen on another. And even if you can set this up, expect one or more with their faces covered so they can't be identified to target the cameras.

My heart goes out to the lady mentioned in the OP. Wish she stood a better chance of getting support.

We need a “Godwin’s law” type nickname for over estimation of GDPR; it’s still a question of proportionality, little different from the status quo ante as regards DP.

“ Security of premises or other property is probably the most common use of a CCTV system. Such a system will typically be intended to capture images of intruders or of individuals damaging property or removing goods without authorisation. Such uses are more likely to meet the test of proportionality.”

Mrs OBumble

dhaughton99 wrote: »

When we went to a Labour councilor to get help dealing with a family bringing in a large gang of yobs to do their dirty work. She ended up trying to get some votes by going to the local paper saying that she was going to deal with anti social behavior in the area. Ended up on the front page, which made it 10 times worse as the yobs wanted to show that they didn’t care.

Wrong party.

Labour may see itself as for the workers, but they don't understand how feral minds work and what it takes to motivate behaviour change.

nuac

imho Housing authority should deal with this as anti-social conduct

splinter65

First of all there is no such thing as a private housing estate any more. Speculators buy houses on “private” estates sometimes 3 or 4 at a time and let them to families who should be, and would be happier in, local authority estates.
In some ” private” estates up to 55% of houses are rented to families who are in receipt of HAP. Not all of these families are the source of trouble but all the trouble will be caused by children from these families.
Nothing can and will be done about these children. They are now in a second sometimes third generation of family where nobody has ever had a job, there are no rules except that you must make sure that no one tells you what to do. Ever. Nobody else has any rights or entitlements except you and your family. If anyone ever anywhere including school try’s to stop you doing what you want to do then attack attack attack.
This lady needs to sadly take the help offered by the local authority and move out.

corks finest

Dial Hard wrote: »

corks finest wrote: »

Chav mammy/ chav kids,no responsibility,when seeing mammy boozing, shouting roaring, causing havoc with neighbours ,it's normal for these scrotes,have it here in carrigaline for years on/ off,price of living in a sinkhole,won't change,one gang opposite me have been brought to court for eviction,Cluid housing made a balls up of some paperwork, result chav and kid and partying continues

And Chav Daddy has absolutely no responsibility for the situation, no? :rolleyes:

Didn't mention daddy on purpose,,,,,in general he doesn't exist in the scrotes world,,had to ring the law last night,,teens tormenting a mentally ill guy nearby ,so it goes on,on,on.

corks finest

nuac wrote: »

imho Housing authority should deal with this as anti-social conduct

They don't in general, cork co coincil ,gardai,and hse got involved a few years ago here in carrigaline,3 chav mammies were told in writing control yere teens or ye could lose tenancy, result? Trouble stopped ,or moved on elsewhere

corks finest

the purple tin wrote: »

Dial Hard wrote: »

And Chav Daddy has absolutely no responsibility for the situation, no? :rolleyes:

The Chav Daddy is quite often absent.

Locally most are

NUTLEY BOY

corkdave wrote: »

Situation briefly is that children way under 10 years are making life miserable for a woman living alone in a city housing estate. Throwing stones at her windows. Shouting at her. Taking stuff from her garden. Scratching her car. She lives alone since her husband died. The City Council has offered to move her, but she loves her house and the memories of her life with her husband are tied up there. Also she has done nothing wrong and cannot see why she should be the one to move when all she wants is to live in peace. Gardai say they cannot intervene because the children are minors.
Yesterday a five year old threw stones at the windows and used a stick to break her letter box. She shouted at him to stop.
Hours later the child’s mum arrived at her door and screamed obscenities at her for shouting at her child. The scene lasted for a number of minutes.
The experience has shattered her. She is in her fifties and not in good health. Aside from leaving her home, does she have options in law?
Any comments appreciated.

To answer the original question.

Generally, a parent is not legally responsible for the malevolent conduct of their children. The only civil exception to that would be where a child is acting as an agent of the parent in which case the parent might be vicariously liable for the acts of the child.

In the real world this would probably just not fly in terms of trying to enforce a remedy.

On the face of it this looks like the criminal offence of harassment as per S.10 Non-fatal Offences Against the Person At 1997. link http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/10/enacted/en/html#sec10

The problem here, as already pointed out, is that the actual perpetrators of the conduct are below the age of criminal responsibility. You could not get at the problem parent unless you could show that she was actually organising it deliberately and that is a long shot.

Discodog

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

To answer the original question.

Generally, a parent is not legally responsible for the malevolent conduct of their children. The only civil exception to that would be where a child is acting as an agent of the parent in which case the parent might be vicariously liable for the acts of the child.

In the real world this would probably just not fly in terms of trying to enforce a remedy.

On the face of it this looks like the criminal offence of harassment as per S.10 Non-fatal Offences Against the Person At 1997. link http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/10/enacted/en/html#sec10

The problem here, as already pointed out, is that the actual perpetrators of the conduct are below the age of criminal responsibility. You could not get at the problem parent unless you could show that she was actually organising it deliberately and that is a long shot.

Does this allow someone to recruit children to commit crime knowing that the Guards won't act ? How do the Guards deal with serious crime committed by children ?

Peregrinus

Discodog wrote: »

Does this allow someone to recruit children to commit crime knowing that the Guards won't act ? How do the Guards deal with serious crime committed by children ?

Serious crime committed by children is rare, unless you adopt a very expansive definition of "serious crime".

Where it does happen, parents are mostly appalled, and are anxious to co-operate to address the problem. Ordinary criminal justice processes aren't relevant here.

Where children are engaged in serious crime, and parents are unconcerned or indifferent or even encouraging, that's a child welfare issue, since the children themselves are endangered by this state of affairs. Tusla's problem, not the guards.

Discodog

Peregrinus wrote: »

Serious crime committed by children is rare, unless you adopt a very expansive definition of "serious crime".

Where it does happen, parents are mostly appalled, and are anxious to co-operate to address the problem. Ordinary criminal justice processes aren't relevant here.

Where children are engaged in serious crime, and parents are unconcerned or indifferent or even encouraging, that's a child welfare issue, since the children themselves are endangered by this state of affairs. Tusla's problem, not the guards.

So when, as happened in Galway, a group of children stoned a foal to death the Guards wouldn't act. Do Tusla have a mobile force with powers of arrest ? Who is supposed to act when groups of children are throwing rocks at passing cars ?

lawred2

corkdave wrote: »

Situation briefly is that children way under 10 years are making life miserable for a woman living alone in a city housing estate. Throwing stones at her windows. Shouting at her. Taking stuff from her garden. Scratching her car. She lives alone since her husband died. The City Council has offered to move her, but she loves her house and the memories of her life with her husband are tied up there. Also she has done nothing wrong and cannot see why she should be the one to move when all she wants is to live in peace. Gardai say they cannot intervene because the children are minors.
Yesterday a five year old threw stones at the windows and used a stick to break her letter box. She shouted at him to stop.
Hours later the child’s mum arrived at her door and screamed obscenities at her for shouting at her child. The scene lasted for a number of minutes.
The experience has shattered her. She is in her fifties and not in good health. Aside from leaving her home, does she have options in law?
Any comments appreciated.

not absolving the fear animals of their responsibilities here but she should just move

lawred2

Tell me how wrote: »

CCTV is a completely different consideration now due to GDPR.

Even so, you'd have to have cameras covering all areas so that someone interfering with one camera would be seen on another. And even if you can set this up, expect one or more with their faces covered so they can't be identified to target the cameras.

My heart goes out to the lady mentioned in the OP. Wish she stood a better chance of getting support.

CCTV for the purposes of recording criminality is entirely justified under GDPR.

Just have to put up a sign and be prepared to provide copies to the scumbags if they request it.

Peregrinus

Discodog wrote: »

So when, as happened in Galway, a group of children stoned a foal to death the Guards wouldn't act. Do Tusla have a mobile force with powers of arrest ? Who is supposed to act when groups of children are throwing rocks at passing cars ?

Tusla is concerned about the children, not the cars.