XC set for Olympics.

Working class heroes

XC set to be reintroduced as an Olympic event.
https://www.fastrunning.com/events-and-races/events-news/countdown-continues-for-cross-countrys-return-to-olympic-competition/19430

HelenAnne

Hurray!

Down South

Working class heroes wrote: »

XC set to be reintroduced as an Olympic event.
https://www.fastrunning.com/events-and-races/events-news/countdown-continues-for-cross-countrys-return-to-olympic-competition/19430

scoring is not exactly straightforward though

robinph

Should be in the winter games though and not summer. Not enough mud and flooded rivers to negotiate in the summer so the courses would end up being dull fakery around a boring field with some boxes with fake grass on top for them to hurdle.

Working class heroes

robinph wrote: »

Should be in the winter games though and not summer. Not enough mud and flooded rivers to negotiate in the summer so the courses would end up being dull fakery around a boring field with some boxes with fake grass on top for them to hurdle.

Disagree. It’s an athletic discipline and therefore belongs in the Summer games.
Some creative thinking needed for the course however.

robinph

Working class heroes wrote: »

Disagree. It’s an athletic discipline and therefore belongs in the Summer games.
Some creative thinking needed for the course however.

It's a winter sport though.

Might not involve sliding yourself, or a stone, on ice or snow like all the other winter games events, but it's definitely not a sport that happens during the summer, or at the same time as track running events take place.

Djoucer

Working class heroes wrote: »

Disagree. It’s an athletic discipline and therefore belongs in the Summer games.
Some creative thinking needed for the course however.

They could use the MTB course.

The last Euro XC was awful.

Chivito550

robinph wrote: »

It's a winter sport though.

Might not involve sliding yourself, or a stone, on ice or snow like all the other winter games events, but it's definitely not a sport that happens during the summer, or at the same time as track running events take place.

Every single time this topic comes up, this same stuff is blurted out. Not just here, but through the likes of Steve Cram etc who should know better.

The rules relating to sports being admitted into the Winter Olympics are the following:

- Must be always played on ice

Or

- Must be always played on snow

Cross-country does not fulfill this. It may take place in winter, but so does indoor athletics, darts, snooker etc. The time of year a sport predominantly takes place is completely irrelevant to whether a sport is allowed into the Winter Olympics.

The bottom line is that if a sport doesn't need ice or snow for the sport to exist then the sport cannot be part of the Winter Games.

There are no ifs, buts and maybes about it.

robinph

Chivito550 wrote: »

Every single time this topic comes up, this same stuff is blurted out. Not just here, but through the likes of Steve Cram etc who should know better.

The rules relating to sports being admitted into the Winter Olympics are the following:

- Must be always played on ice

Or

- Must be always played on snow

Cross-country does not fulfill this. It may take place in winter, but so does indoor athletics, darts, snooker etc. The time of year a sport predominantly takes place is completely irrelevant to whether a sport is allowed into the Winter Olympics.

The bottom line is that if a sport doesn't need ice or snow for the sport to exist then the sport cannot be part of the Winter Games.

There are no ifs, buts and maybes about it.

Where have you found that rule from?

The winter games currently happen to only include sports involving sliding about on snow or ice, but I've not seen anything that states that as an olympic rule for the winter games. There have been winter sports taking place in the summer games such as ice skating, and of course the totally not sports events of architecture and town planning so they are not averse to putting unexpected sports in the olympics.

It would be a departure of the current theme of snow and ice based sports admittedly, but it's unlikely to take hold in the summer games if the people who would be taking part in it are otherwise involved in running marathons or 5km/10km around the track. Can't see those athletes dropping any of those events to run a cross country race in the middle of their track/ road racing season.

Singer

Chivito550 wrote: »

The rules relating to sports being admitted into the Winter Olympics are the following:

- Must be always played on ice

Or

- Must be always played on snow

Change the rules to include the following:

- Must be always played in mud.

There are a few advantages:
- Cross country running now in.
- So is mud wrestling!
- Improves Ireland's chances of hosting an Olympics :pac:

Chivito550

robinph wrote: »

Where have you found that rule from?

The winter games currently happen to only include sports involving sliding about on snow or ice, but I've not seen anything that states that as an olympic rule for the winter games. There have been winter sports taking place in the summer games such as ice skating, and of course the totally not sports events of architecture and town planning so they are not averse to putting unexpected sports in the olympics.

It would be a departure of the current theme of snow and ice based sports admittedly, but it's unlikely to take hold in the summer games if the people who would be taking part in it are otherwise involved in running marathons or 5km/10km around the track. Can't see those athletes dropping any of those events to run a cross country race in the middle of their track/ road racing season.

Top of page 23.

https://stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/olympic_charter_en.pdf

The Olympic Games consist of the Games of the Olympiad and the Olympic Winter
Games. Only those sports which are practised on snow or ice are considered as winter
sports.

Ice Skating was included on the Summer Olympics before the Winter Olympics came into existence in 1924.

Chivito550

So now that we have established that the Winter Games are a no-go we are left with the Summer Olympics.

To have cross-country included, a track event will have to be taken away, most likely the 10000m.

Cross-country usually takes place in muck, wind, rain or a combination of these. An event taking place in summer isn’t really cross country is it?

How will somebody prepare for a summer Cross-Country championship? There will have to similar type warm up meets, also taking place in dry and warm conditions with hard surfaces. Again, this isn’t really cross-country as people know it.

Also, like golf, cross-country is a horrible spectator sport. You see almost none of the action because the event is spread over a massive area. 10000m involves 80,000 people being able to follow every bit of the race at once.

I’d be very surprised if it makes it into the Summer Olympics, and judging by the ludicrous complicated format in the original post, I hope ideas like this are swiftly confined to the dustbin.

Working class heroes

Chivito550 wrote: »

So now that we have established that the Winter Games are a no-go we are left with the Summer Olympics.

To have cross-country included, a track event will have to be taken away, most likely the 10000m.

Cross-country usually takes place in muck, wind, rain or a combination of these. An event taking place in summer isn’t really cross country is it?

How will somebody prepare for a summer Cross-Country championship? There will have to similar type warm up meets, also taking place in dry and warm conditions with hard surfaces. Again, this isn’t really cross-country as people know it.

Also, like golf, cross-country is a horrible spectator sport. You see almost none of the action because the event is spread over a massive area. 10000m involves 80,000 people being able to follow every bit of the race at once.

I’d be very surprised if it makes it into the Summer Olympics, and judging by the ludicrous complicated format in the original post, I hope ideas like this are swiftly confined to the dustbin.

Have it on the “in field” making sure each lap goes through the water jump part of the steeple chase

No issue with the marathon walks spread out over a large area.

robinph

TV cameras and spectators isn't a problem, you'd just have it on a small section of the mountain bike course.

The problem is that people won't be able to watch it, it's that nobody is going to take part during the summer season.

Cork Boy 53

Working class heroes wrote: »

Have it on the “in field” making sure each lap goes through the water jump part of the steeple chase

No issue with the marathon walks spread out over a large area.

The race walking in the Olympics and other major championships takes place on a continuous loop so is not really comparable with the marathon races in terms of spectator viewing.

Working class heroes

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

The race walking in the Olympics and other major championships takes place on a continuous loop so is not really comparable with the marathon races in terms of spectator viewing.

As is XC, no?

Cork Boy 53

Chivito550 wrote: »

So now that we have established that the Winter Games are a no-go we are left with the Summer Olympics.

To have cross-country included, a track event will have to be taken away, most likely the 10000m.

Not necessarily the case.

Cross-country usually takes place in muck, wind, rain or a combination of these.
An event taking place in summer isn’t really cross country is it?

What about the times in the past when the world championships have been held in southern Spain, Portugal and the African countries? Not too many soft muddy conditions involved there.

Working class heroes

robinph wrote: »

TV cameras and spectators isn't a problem, you'd just have it on a small section of the mountain bike course.

The problem is that people won't be able to watch it, it's that nobody is going to take part during the summer season.

Of course they would, lure of the olympics and all that.

Cork Boy 53

Working class heroes wrote: »

As is XC, no?

I was making the point that race walking is not really comparable to marathons as far as spectator viewing is concerned. Obviously XC and race walks would be.

robinph

Working class heroes wrote: »

Of course they would, lure of the olympics and all that.

But they would already be running in the Olympics in the 5, 10 or marathon.

Cork Boy 53

robinph wrote: »

But they would already be running in the Olympics in the 5, 10 or marathon.

That would not be a problem for the likes of the Kenyans, Ethiopians and other eastern African runners with the strength in depth in those countries. Athletes from other parts of the world might have a difficult choice to make though.

robinph

Even the Kenyans and Ethiopians might think they are better off taking advantage of some marathon paydays going begging as the top guys are absent. Didn't Kenya send a bunch of v40 marathon runners to the Commonwealth games as nobody was interested in messing up their chances at spring city marathon paydays?

There isn't going to be a 5 a side football tournament happening in the summer olympics, or a 15 a side rugby whilst there are the 11 and 7 a side equivalents going on. Same with the half marathon not being an event in the olympics, or world championships. The same athletes would be taking part in each version of the event and it's not something that can be doubled up. To have a decent competition those events need to be held at completely different times of year or there just isn't the competition to make it worth while.

Chivito550

Every sport gets an allocation of events. If athletics wants cross country, that’s fine, but it likely means having to scrap an event to make way for it.

We see this in rowing. Their allocation is 14 events. The lightweight men’s four has had to make way for the women’s four to be brought in.

There is zero chance there will be an 8-12km cross country race taking place in the same Olympic programme as the 10000m.

Chivito550

And I agree that race walking and marathon running aren’t great spectator events. But unlike cross country, these don’t have any track alternatives.

robinph

Chivito550 wrote: »

There is zero chance there will be an 8-12km cross country race taking place in the same Olympic programme as the 10000m.

There is very small chance of the top runners wanting to take part in a cross country during the summer season.


Now if they dropped the 10km track race and created a mountain running event instead, that has very little cross over of athletes for track/ road racing, then it might be a goer.

Chivito550

robinph wrote: »

There is very small chance of the top runners wanting to take part in a cross country during the summer season.


Now if they dropped the 10km track race and created a mountain running event instead, that has very little cross over of athletes for track/ road racing, then it might be a goer.

If the cross country replaced the 10000, you’d get loads of people doing it. It’s the Olympic Games after all!

Mountain running is a different discipline. There wouldn’t be the same crossover with track as XC has. It would massively raise the standards and publicity of it, but that’s neither here nor there regarding this discussion.

Cork Boy 53

Chivito550 wrote: »

Every sport gets an allocation of events. If athletics wants cross country, that’s fine, but it likely means having to scrap an event to make way for it.

We see this in rowing. Their allocation is 14 events. The lightweight men’s four has had to make way for the women’s four to be brought in.

There is zero chance there will be an 8-12km cross country race taking place in the same Olympic programme as the 10000m.

Well, there will be 3 new swimming events at Tokyo 2020 with no other swimming events having to make way. So it may not be as cut and dried as what you state.

robinph

Chivito550 wrote: »

If the cross country replaced the 10000, you’d get loads of people doing it. It’s the Olympic Games after all!

Would you though? Other than the potential number of athletes could be higher as you can have a mass start and don't need to restrict numbers. Is anyone who is running the 5km going to take part? Is anyone targeting a minor city marathon the following month going to take part? Is anyone running the marathon in the Olympics going to take part?

Baring a couple of specialists at cross country, you'll just end up with the 3rd choice set of people from each country who didn't make the 5km or marathon selection.

Chivito550 wrote: »

Mountain running is a different discipline. There wouldn’t be the same crossover with track as XC has. It would massively raise the standards and publicity of it, but that’s neither here nor there regarding this discussion.

The fact that mountain running is a different discipline is totally the point though. That would give it a far better chance of being included than cross country as you'd be bringing in a new group of athletes, spectators and sponsors. There isn't anything to gain for the athletes for taking part in a cross country rather than a 10km on the track, except it's a bit more of a lottery who wins or twists an ankle and a couple more people get to go to the olympics.

Djoucer

There was an indoor mountain running race a few years back.

Essentially same set up as the motocross events that take place in big arenas.

There was another one that converted BMX track for an XC / obstacle race.

You can see the whole race, lots of laps etc.

Fair more entertaining than an idea of a summer XC.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Every single time this topic comes up, this same stuff is blurted out. Not just here, but through the likes of Steve Cram etc who should know better.

The rules relating to sports being admitted into the Winter Olympics are the following:

- Must be always played on ice

Or

- Must be always played on snow

Cross-country does not fulfill this. It may take place in winter, but so does indoor athletics, darts, snooker etc. The time of year a sport predominantly takes place is completely irrelevant to whether a sport is allowed into the Winter Olympics.

The bottom line is that if a sport doesn't need ice or snow for the sport to exist then the sport cannot be part of the Winter Games.

There are no ifs, buts and maybes about it.

Sure we can run in Snow. Some of the old cross country was in snow.
Cross country is not a summer event

Can have the race on the cross country skiing track on the last day

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

Sure we can run in Snow. Some of the old cross country was in snow.
Cross country is not a summer event

Can have the race on the cross country skiing track on the last day

I assume this is not a serious post.

Cross-Country athletics is not eligible for the Winter Olympics. Read the Olympic charter above

Case closed.

Chivito550

robinph wrote: »

Would you though? Other than the potential number of athletes could be higher as you can have a mass start and don't need to restrict numbers. Is anyone who is running the 5km going to take part? Is anyone targeting a minor city marathon the following month going to take part? Is anyone running the marathon in the Olympics going to take part?

Baring a couple of specialists at cross country, you'll just end up with the 3rd choice set of people from each country who didn't make the 5km or marathon selection.



The fact that mountain running is a different discipline is totally the point though. That would give it a far better chance of being included than cross country as you'd be bringing in a new group of athletes, spectators and sponsors. There isn't anything to gain for the athletes for taking part in a cross country rather than a 10km on the track, except it's a bit more of a lottery who wins or twists an ankle and a couple more people get to go to the olympics.

If Cross-Country was put in in place of the 10000m, you'd just get many of the athletes who would have done the 10k doing it instead.

If it was added on top of the current events, you'd just get a spread of talent across 4 distance events, rather than 3, making the quality of each individual event a slight bit less.

No way would it be a B-standard event though. People would quickly look at it as a chance of a soft medal. Once everyone gets that idea you just get a flow of talent from the other disciplines into it.

You have no reason to believe that somebody would pick 10000 over the Cross Country if given the choice. The strength based runners would probably go for Cross-Country, the speed based guys the 10000m. All this will do is weaken both events as the talent will be spread across more events.

It would be good for athletes from Ireland no doubt. It would open up some extra Olympic spots.

Overall, I'm not in favour of it. Cross-Country is a winter discipline within athletics, used to develop strength ahead of the track season. Even Fionnuala said herself after winning her second Euro Cross that she is under no illusions regarding the overall relevance of the win, and that the track is ultimately where it's at (or the marathon).

robinph

If my sums are right it looks like about 40% of the field in the 10,000 also then ran in the 5,000 in Rio, obviously including the winner of both. Do you seriously think someone is going to risk a cross country race a couple of days before the track 5,000? Yes it opens the field up for some others to take part, but which is the bigger prize? Hurdling some hay bales or 5000 around the track and then finishing off the season on the diamond league circuit without a twisted ankle? The field just wouldn't be competitive, or if it is then they are stupid.

Cross country needs to be at a different time of year, or a new event in the summer olympics needs to be something that the existing 5km/ 10km/ marathon road runners don't take part in normally anyway.

Chivito550

robinph wrote: »

If my sums are right it looks like about 40% of the field in the 10,000 also then ran in the 5,000 in Rio, obviously including the winner of both. Do you seriously think someone is going to risk a cross country race a couple of days before the track 5,000? Yes it opens the field up for some others to take part, but which is the bigger prize? Hurdling some hay bales or 5000 around the track and then finishing off the season on the diamond league circuit without a twisted ankle? The field just wouldn't be competitive, or if it is then they are stupid.

Cross country needs to be at a different time of year, or a new event in the summer olympics needs to be something that the existing 5km/ 10km/ marathon road runners don't take part in normally anyway.

The 10000m qualifying standard is particularly tough, to keep the field size down, so it can be run without heats as a straight final. That’s why 40% also did the 5K. If the field was bigger then you’d have heats, and so the percentage doubling up would go down.

Cross country can facilitate a larger field than a 10000m so you won’t get that many doing both.

And as I said, anyone without a kick will try their hand at gold in the XC instead.

Both prizes are equal. Olympic gold is Olympic gold.

I hope it doesn’t happen, I don’t think it will happen, but if it did happen, it would 100% work and the fields would be strong. The naturally better XC runners will gravitate towards it.

robinph

Chivito550 wrote: »

Olympic gold is Olympic gold.

Would you rather the 100m gold or the 200m gold?

Chivito550

robinph wrote: »

Would you rather the 100m gold or the 200m gold?

100m is the blue-ribboned event because of the whole “worlds fastest man” thing (even though average speed is often higher in 200m!!).

That aside, no other track events have any more prestige than the others. I’ve never noticed more attention going to 5000 over 10000 or 800 over 1500 for example.

Anyway, cross-country will not be in the Olympics.

Working class heroes

Chivito550 wrote: »

100m is the blue-ribboned event because of the whole “worlds fastest man” thing (even though average speed is often higher in 200m!!).

That aside, no other track events have any more prestige than the others. I’ve never noticed more attention going to 5000 over 10000 or 800 over 1500 for example.

Anyway, cross-country will not be in the Olympics.

In your opinion.

average_runner

I would prefer to see the olympics drop tennis, rugby, golf and bring in Cross country and more road racing, maybe half marathon and the ultra.

Djoucer

XC on the Winter Olympics cross country course would be class.

It would be carnage and great for spectators.

Rules are there to changed.

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

I would prefer to see the olympics drop tennis, rugby, golf and bring in Cross country and more road racing, maybe half marathon and the ultra.

What is “the ultra”?

Working class heroes

Chivito550 wrote: »

What is “the ultra”?

The ultimate test of running ability.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

What is “the ultra”?

For you its anything over 400 metres