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XC set for Olympics.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,035 ✭✭✭HelenAnne


    Hurray!


  • Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Down South



    scoring is not exactly straightforward though


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Should be in the winter games though and not summer. Not enough mud and flooded rivers to negotiate in the summer so the courses would end up being dull fakery around a boring field with some boxes with fake grass on top for them to hurdle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,546 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    robinph wrote: »
    Should be in the winter games though and not summer. Not enough mud and flooded rivers to negotiate in the summer so the courses would end up being dull fakery around a boring field with some boxes with fake grass on top for them to hurdle.

    Disagree. It’s an athletic discipline and therefore belongs in the Summer games.
    Some creative thinking needed for the course however.

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Disagree. It’s an athletic discipline and therefore belongs in the Summer games.
    Some creative thinking needed for the course however.

    It's a winter sport though.

    Might not involve sliding yourself, or a stone, on ice or snow like all the other winter games events, but it's definitely not a sport that happens during the summer, or at the same time as track running events take place.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 620 ✭✭✭Djoucer


    Disagree. It’s an athletic discipline and therefore belongs in the Summer games.
    Some creative thinking needed for the course however.

    They could use the MTB course.

    The last Euro XC was awful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    robinph wrote: »
    It's a winter sport though.

    Might not involve sliding yourself, or a stone, on ice or snow like all the other winter games events, but it's definitely not a sport that happens during the summer, or at the same time as track running events take place.

    Every single time this topic comes up, this same stuff is blurted out. Not just here, but through the likes of Steve Cram etc who should know better.

    The rules relating to sports being admitted into the Winter Olympics are the following:

    - Must be always played on ice

    Or

    - Must be always played on snow

    Cross-country does not fulfill this. It may take place in winter, but so does indoor athletics, darts, snooker etc. The time of year a sport predominantly takes place is completely irrelevant to whether a sport is allowed into the Winter Olympics.

    The bottom line is that if a sport doesn't need ice or snow for the sport to exist then the sport cannot be part of the Winter Games.

    There are no ifs, buts and maybes about it.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Every single time this topic comes up, this same stuff is blurted out. Not just here, but through the likes of Steve Cram etc who should know better.

    The rules relating to sports being admitted into the Winter Olympics are the following:

    - Must be always played on ice

    Or

    - Must be always played on snow

    Cross-country does not fulfill this. It may take place in winter, but so does indoor athletics, darts, snooker etc. The time of year a sport predominantly takes place is completely irrelevant to whether a sport is allowed into the Winter Olympics.

    The bottom line is that if a sport doesn't need ice or snow for the sport to exist then the sport cannot be part of the Winter Games.

    There are no ifs, buts and maybes about it.

    Where have you found that rule from?

    The winter games currently happen to only include sports involving sliding about on snow or ice, but I've not seen anything that states that as an olympic rule for the winter games. There have been winter sports taking place in the summer games such as ice skating, and of course the totally not sports events of architecture and town planning so they are not averse to putting unexpected sports in the olympics.

    It would be a departure of the current theme of snow and ice based sports admittedly, but it's unlikely to take hold in the summer games if the people who would be taking part in it are otherwise involved in running marathons or 5km/10km around the track. Can't see those athletes dropping any of those events to run a cross country race in the middle of their track/ road racing season.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,415 ✭✭✭Singer


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    The rules relating to sports being admitted into the Winter Olympics are the following:

    - Must be always played on ice

    Or

    - Must be always played on snow

    Change the rules to include the following:

    - Must be always played in mud.

    There are a few advantages:
    - Cross country running now in.
    - So is mud wrestling!
    - Improves Ireland's chances of hosting an Olympics :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    robinph wrote: »
    Where have you found that rule from?

    The winter games currently happen to only include sports involving sliding about on snow or ice, but I've not seen anything that states that as an olympic rule for the winter games. There have been winter sports taking place in the summer games such as ice skating, and of course the totally not sports events of architecture and town planning so they are not averse to putting unexpected sports in the olympics.

    It would be a departure of the current theme of snow and ice based sports admittedly, but it's unlikely to take hold in the summer games if the people who would be taking part in it are otherwise involved in running marathons or 5km/10km around the track. Can't see those athletes dropping any of those events to run a cross country race in the middle of their track/ road racing season.

    Top of page 23.

    https://stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/olympic_charter_en.pdf
    The Olympic Games consist of the Games of the Olympiad and the Olympic Winter
    Games. Only those sports which are practised on snow or ice are considered as winter
    sports.

    Ice Skating was included on the Summer Olympics before the Winter Olympics came into existence in 1924.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    So now that we have established that the Winter Games are a no-go we are left with the Summer Olympics.

    To have cross-country included, a track event will have to be taken away, most likely the 10000m.

    Cross-country usually takes place in muck, wind, rain or a combination of these. An event taking place in summer isn’t really cross country is it?

    How will somebody prepare for a summer Cross-Country championship? There will have to similar type warm up meets, also taking place in dry and warm conditions with hard surfaces. Again, this isn’t really cross-country as people know it.

    Also, like golf, cross-country is a horrible spectator sport. You see almost none of the action because the event is spread over a massive area. 10000m involves 80,000 people being able to follow every bit of the race at once.

    I’d be very surprised if it makes it into the Summer Olympics, and judging by the ludicrous complicated format in the original post, I hope ideas like this are swiftly confined to the dustbin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,546 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    So now that we have established that the Winter Games are a no-go we are left with the Summer Olympics.

    To have cross-country included, a track event will have to be taken away, most likely the 10000m.

    Cross-country usually takes place in muck, wind, rain or a combination of these. An event taking place in summer isn’t really cross country is it?

    How will somebody prepare for a summer Cross-Country championship? There will have to similar type warm up meets, also taking place in dry and warm conditions with hard surfaces. Again, this isn’t really cross-country as people know it.

    Also, like golf, cross-country is a horrible spectator sport. You see almost none of the action because the event is spread over a massive area. 10000m involves 80,000 people being able to follow every bit of the race at once.

    I’d be very surprised if it makes it into the Summer Olympics, and judging by the ludicrous complicated format in the original post, I hope ideas like this are swiftly confined to the dustbin.

    Have it on the “in field” making sure each lap goes through the water jump part of the steeple chase :)

    No issue with the marathon walks spread out over a large area.

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    TV cameras and spectators isn't a problem, you'd just have it on a small section of the mountain bike course.

    The problem is that people won't be able to watch it, it's that nobody is going to take part during the summer season.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭Cork Boy 53


    Have it on the “in field” making sure each lap goes through the water jump part of the steeple chase :)

    No issue with the marathon walks spread out over a large area.

    The race walking in the Olympics and other major championships takes place on a continuous loop so is not really comparable with the marathon races in terms of spectator viewing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,546 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    The race walking in the Olympics and other major championships takes place on a continuous loop so is not really comparable with the marathon races in terms of spectator viewing.

    As is XC, no?

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭Cork Boy 53


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    So now that we have established that the Winter Games are a no-go we are left with the Summer Olympics.
    To have cross-country included, a track event will have to be taken away, most likely the 10000m.

    Not necessarily the case.
    Cross-country usually takes place in muck, wind, rain or a combination of these.
    An event taking place in summer isn’t really cross country is it?
    What about the times in the past when the world championships have been held in southern Spain, Portugal and the African countries? Not too many soft muddy conditions involved there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,546 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    robinph wrote: »
    TV cameras and spectators isn't a problem, you'd just have it on a small section of the mountain bike course.

    The problem is that people won't be able to watch it, it's that nobody is going to take part during the summer season.

    Of course they would, lure of the olympics and all that.

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭Cork Boy 53


    As is XC, no?

    I was making the point that race walking is not really comparable to marathons as far as spectator viewing is concerned. Obviously XC and race walks would be.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Of course they would, lure of the olympics and all that.

    But they would already be running in the Olympics in the 5, 10 or marathon.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭Cork Boy 53


    robinph wrote: »
    But they would already be running in the Olympics in the 5, 10 or marathon.

    That would not be a problem for the likes of the Kenyans, Ethiopians and other eastern African runners with the strength in depth in those countries. Athletes from other parts of the world might have a difficult choice to make though.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Even the Kenyans and Ethiopians might think they are better off taking advantage of some marathon paydays going begging as the top guys are absent. Didn't Kenya send a bunch of v40 marathon runners to the Commonwealth games as nobody was interested in messing up their chances at spring city marathon paydays?

    There isn't going to be a 5 a side football tournament happening in the summer olympics, or a 15 a side rugby whilst there are the 11 and 7 a side equivalents going on. Same with the half marathon not being an event in the olympics, or world championships. The same athletes would be taking part in each version of the event and it's not something that can be doubled up. To have a decent competition those events need to be held at completely different times of year or there just isn't the competition to make it worth while.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Every sport gets an allocation of events. If athletics wants cross country, that’s fine, but it likely means having to scrap an event to make way for it.

    We see this in rowing. Their allocation is 14 events. The lightweight men’s four has had to make way for the women’s four to be brought in.

    There is zero chance there will be an 8-12km cross country race taking place in the same Olympic programme as the 10000m.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    And I agree that race walking and marathon running aren’t great spectator events. But unlike cross country, these don’t have any track alternatives.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    There is zero chance there will be an 8-12km cross country race taking place in the same Olympic programme as the 10000m.

    There is very small chance of the top runners wanting to take part in a cross country during the summer season.


    Now if they dropped the 10km track race and created a mountain running event instead, that has very little cross over of athletes for track/ road racing, then it might be a goer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    robinph wrote: »
    There is very small chance of the top runners wanting to take part in a cross country during the summer season.


    Now if they dropped the 10km track race and created a mountain running event instead, that has very little cross over of athletes for track/ road racing, then it might be a goer.

    If the cross country replaced the 10000, you’d get loads of people doing it. It’s the Olympic Games after all!

    Mountain running is a different discipline. There wouldn’t be the same crossover with track as XC has. It would massively raise the standards and publicity of it, but that’s neither here nor there regarding this discussion.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭Cork Boy 53


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Every sport gets an allocation of events. If athletics wants cross country, that’s fine, but it likely means having to scrap an event to make way for it.

    We see this in rowing. Their allocation is 14 events. The lightweight men’s four has had to make way for the women’s four to be brought in.

    There is zero chance there will be an 8-12km cross country race taking place in the same Olympic programme as the 10000m.

    Well, there will be 3 new swimming events at Tokyo 2020 with no other swimming events having to make way. So it may not be as cut and dried as what you state.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    If the cross country replaced the 10000, you’d get loads of people doing it. It’s the Olympic Games after all!
    Would you though? Other than the potential number of athletes could be higher as you can have a mass start and don't need to restrict numbers. Is anyone who is running the 5km going to take part? Is anyone targeting a minor city marathon the following month going to take part? Is anyone running the marathon in the Olympics going to take part?

    Baring a couple of specialists at cross country, you'll just end up with the 3rd choice set of people from each country who didn't make the 5km or marathon selection.
    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Mountain running is a different discipline. There wouldn’t be the same crossover with track as XC has. It would massively raise the standards and publicity of it, but that’s neither here nor there regarding this discussion.

    The fact that mountain running is a different discipline is totally the point though. That would give it a far better chance of being included than cross country as you'd be bringing in a new group of athletes, spectators and sponsors. There isn't anything to gain for the athletes for taking part in a cross country rather than a 10km on the track, except it's a bit more of a lottery who wins or twists an ankle and a couple more people get to go to the olympics.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 620 ✭✭✭Djoucer


    There was an indoor mountain running race a few years back.

    Essentially same set up as the motocross events that take place in big arenas.

    There was another one that converted BMX track for an XC / obstacle race.

    You can see the whole race, lots of laps etc.

    Fair more entertaining than an idea of a summer XC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,851 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Every single time this topic comes up, this same stuff is blurted out. Not just here, but through the likes of Steve Cram etc who should know better.

    The rules relating to sports being admitted into the Winter Olympics are the following:

    - Must be always played on ice

    Or

    - Must be always played on snow

    Cross-country does not fulfill this. It may take place in winter, but so does indoor athletics, darts, snooker etc. The time of year a sport predominantly takes place is completely irrelevant to whether a sport is allowed into the Winter Olympics.

    The bottom line is that if a sport doesn't need ice or snow for the sport to exist then the sport cannot be part of the Winter Games.

    There are no ifs, buts and maybes about it.


    Sure we can run in Snow. Some of the old cross country was in snow.
    Cross country is not a summer event

    Can have the race on the cross country skiing track on the last day


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Sure we can run in Snow. Some of the old cross country was in snow.
    Cross country is not a summer event

    Can have the race on the cross country skiing track on the last day

    I assume this is not a serious post.

    Cross-Country athletics is not eligible for the Winter Olympics. Read the Olympic charter above

    Case closed.


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