Carbon tax up 50% in budget

unkel

Adding about €2 to a tank of petrol / diesel and adding substantially to our bills for home heating and hot water.

Linky


We are very far behind our emissions obligations and we face huge fines from the EU starting in just over a year. I guess this is one of the (many) measures that will be taken to find funding to pay for those fines.

Eric Cartman

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Ah yes Ireland being a massive contributor to global emissions. Makes sense

By the silly European metrics they make up, a nuclear power plant to replace our coal ones would get us near to in line , but it is quite mad isn't it.

The world keeps talking about Europe and the US having to meet climate targets yet completely ignoring that in reality its Asia and Africas problem to deal with, even if we stopped innovating where we are in the west now, in 200 years they'd still be responsible.

Isambard

it's the cows farting that is the real problem

Tazio

Where do the euros collected in this CO2 tax go? I genuinely dont know. Can't find numbers on this..

Grant Stevens

unkel wrote: »

We are very far behind our emissions obligations and we face huge fines from the EU starting in just over a year. I guess this is one of the (many) measures that will be taken to find funding to pay for those fines.

Could this be added to the argument for the pro-Irexit side or are will we just pay up and move on?

Shefwedfan

Grant Stevens wrote: »

Could this be added to the argument for the pro-Irexit side or are will we just pay up and move on?

I thought the CO2 reduction thing we signed up to is a Worldwide one?? so even if we where stupid enough to go out of Europe we would still have to pay

Grant Stevens

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I thought the CO2 reduction thing we signed up to is a Worldwide one?? so even if we where stupid enough to go out of Europe we would still have to pay

According to the CCAC the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Act 2015 seems to be in direct response to EU requirement.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/46/section/2/enacted/en/html#sec2

BoJack Horseman

While there are those stupid enough to believe that paying more tax today will somehow change the planet's weather centuries in the future ..... The government will pull this sh*t.

screamer

Nuclear.... We may just bite the bullet and be done with it. We live on a tiny windswept rock on the farthest reaches of the European continent, we are one of the most energy dependent countries in Europe. We need cars as the public transport outside of urban areas is non existent, we need oil and gas to heat our homes in the ****e climate and farming and farting cows are one of our biggest industries and exports. Sure tax us all to death and be done with it....

Water John

Just to keep things fact based, it's the belching of cows not the farting, wrong end.
Each individual, family small country takes its responsibility. Shouting for some else to do, something, sorta doesn't work. We need a plan, something that is sadly lacking.

bazz26

Lol. Oh I see it's that time of year again, mad speculation and wild sensational threads like this right upto budget day and then come budget day, sure it wasn't as bad as we were expecting. Every year - wash, rinse, repeat.

I'm sure some of the EV boys will be along soon now to tell us how this vindicates their decision to ditch their ICE cars.

Eric Cartman

bazz26 wrote: »

Lol. Oh I see it's that time of year again, mad speculation and wild sensational threads like this right upto budget day and then come budget day, sure it wasn't as bad as we were expecting. Every year - wash, rinse, repeat.

I'm sure some of the EV boys will be along soon now to tell us how this vindicates their decision to ditch their ICE cars.

if most people followed suit they'd have a 200 quid a year tax on their 'green machines'

Jimmy.

Mod: Don't post in this thread again

ednwireland

And this will make absolutely no difference to co2 emissions as no alternatives will be provided , so everyone will carryon just paying more.
So basically a tax raising measure in the guise of reducing co2 emissions.
Greenwash pure and simple

Water John

Indeed, taxing without really incentivising the alternatives and without a plan is quite pathetic.

daheff

So my understanding is that you get penalised for not hitting your emissions target. Then you buy carbon emissions certs to cover the excess emissions.

The penalty has to be significant enough to make countries sit up & take notice. Otherwise rich countries just buy their way out of their obligations.


Its more a sledgehammer to break a nut approach.


For those who blame the asian & african countries.....well they also signed up & have the same obligation.

Shefwedfan

bazz26 wrote: »

Lol. Oh I see it's that time of year again, mad speculation and wild sensational threads like this right upto budget day and then come budget day, sure it wasn't as bad as we were expecting. Every year - wash, rinse, repeat.

I'm sure some of the EV boys will be along soon now to tell us how this vindicates their decision to ditch their ICE cars.

God your obsessed with electric cars

You never shut up about them, just go buy one

Shefwedfan

Could be standard “look we thought about this but in the end because we love all you people we are not going to screw you that way, but this other way over here is better”

Please assume position

If 2 euro on tank of fuel then how much on 1200ltr of oil for heating?

Atlantic Dawn

Why don't they put carbon taxes on meat and milk while they are at it, farming contributes hugely to CO2 also.

Shefwedfan

daheff wrote: »

So my understanding is that you get penalised for not hitting your emissions target. Then you buy carbon emissions certs to cover the excess emissions.

The penalty has to be significant enough to make countries sit up & take notice. Otherwise rich countries just buy their way out of their obligations.


Its more a sledgehammer to break a nut approach.


For those who blame the asian & african countries.....well they also signed up & have the same obligation.

So from my reading, if you are going to miss your target you can try and buy from other countries that are hitting their targets, so they can name their price

Ireland should and could be selling our co2 credits and making an absolute fortune but we are so behind that would never happen....we are small enough country with enough wind/sun to provide electricity without peat.... we could easily move away for petrol/diesel based traffic to trains etc if people had will power, it’s not like the train tracks would have to long Distances

bazz26

Shefwedfan wrote: »

God your obsessed with electric cars

You never shut up about them, just go buy one

Bingo I was right they have arrived.

Na, too much risk of turning into a smug git.

Water John

You may have a point, Atlantic. Diesel however is just not only a GHG its a pollutant in a more localised sense, making the air in your town or city more harmful.

Shefwedfan

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why don't they put carbon taxes on meat and milk while they are at it, farming contributes hugely to CO2 also.

Farming also contributes huge revenue to the country, more than any other business

Bankrupt farming and see how far it gets you

Shefwedfan

bazz26 wrote: »

Bingo I was right they have arrived.

Na, too much risk of turning into a smug git.

Ahh you had to check and then edit.....

Pity but I drive a diesel....check again

bazz26

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ahh you had to check and then edit.....

Pity but I drive a diesel....check again

Not really.

CrabRevolution

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Farming also contributes huge revenue to the country, more than any other business

Bankrupt farming and see how far it gets you

Have you any source for that?

The entire agri-food sector (which encompasses a lot more than farming) contributes 7.8% of Irelands GNI (Modified Gross National Income), 8.6% of Employment and 10.3% of Irish Exports.

Not to say those numbers aren't a significant chunk of our economy, but there's clearly much bigger business out there. It also doesn't take into account the €1.8 Billion in subsidies paid to farmers.

Fact Sheet on Irish Agriculture - Department of Agriculture

Del2005

ednwireland wrote: »

And this will make absolutely no difference to co2 emissions as no alternatives will be provided , so everyone will carryon just paying more.
So basically a tax raising measure in the guise of reducing co2 emissions.
Greenwash pure and simple

It will increase CO2 emissions, but not in Ireland so that's OK. What will happen is that people will scrap, with a government subsidy very shortly, perfectly good cars with majority of their CO2 already produced and now they are just emitting fuel CO2 for a nice shiny new car which requires lots of CO2 to be emitted in its production and will take longer than it's design life to recoup the emissions for it and the good vehicle it destroyed. But our emissions will be slightly down so that's good for the environment!!

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Farming also contributes huge revenue to the country, more than any other business

Bankrupt farming and see how far it gets you

Remove the EU subsidies and see how much farming contributes. The vast majority of farmers make their money off grants or off farm.

Shefwedfan

Del2005 wrote: »

Remove the EU subsidies and see how much farming contributes. The vast majority of farmers make their money off grants or off farm.

Why do people comment when they clearly haven't a clue what they are talking about.....


Next you will be asking to tax a cow.....

Dravokivich

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Why do people comment when they clearly haven't a clue what they are talking about.....


Next you will be asking to tax a cow.....

Beef is taxed?

Shefwedfan

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Have you any source for that?

The entire agri-food sector (which encompasses a lot more than farming) contributes 7.8% of Irelands GNI (Modified Gross National Income), 8.6% of Employment and 10.3% of Irish Exports.

Not to say those numbers aren't a significant chunk of our economy, but there's clearly much bigger business out there. It also doesn't take into account the €1.8 Billion in subsidies paid to farmers.

Fact Sheet on Irish Agriculture - Department of Agriculture

A significant chuck is a small way to put it. 12 billion of exports....Remove farming from this country and see what state we would be in then


How many unemployed would we have?



A few years back a program was made in UK about the amount of food they import, this was usual BS before Brexit. One of the weeks was all about cheese, how much it costs them to import.....guess where it all came from??? Cork....they even flew a TV camera crew over to show the locations etc.....

creedp

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A significant chuck is a small way to put it. 12 billion of exports....Remove farming from this country and see what state we would be in then


How many unemployed would we have?



A few years back a program was made in UK about the amount of food they import, this was usual BS before Brexit. One of the weeks was all about cheese, how much it costs them to import.....guess where it all came from??? Cork....they even flew a TV camera crew over to show the locations etc.....

The farming sector would say that wouldn't it!! As would all sectors of the economy. Increasing duty on auto diesel would have a much bigger impact on the economy as would effect all sectors including all consumers. I suppose the question to be asked is why one sector of the economy should continue to be protected above all others?

CrabRevolution

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A significant chuck is a small way to put it. 12 billion of exports....Remove farming from this country and see what state we would be in then


How many unemployed would we have?



A few years back a program was made in UK about the amount of food they import, this was usual BS before Brexit. One of the weeks was all about cheese, how much it costs them to import.....guess where it all came from??? Cork....they even flew a TV camera crew over to show the locations etc.....

Remove the pharmaceutical, IT, construction or electronics industry from the economy and see what happens too.

Nobody is saying farming isn't a big business. I'm saying its not the single backbone of our economy, and is certainly not the biggest revenue generator in the country.

€12 billion of agricultural exports is great, but we export €30 billion worth of pharmaceuticals, €25 billion worth of chemicals, €11 billion worth of electronics etc.

cruizer101

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A significant chuck is a small way to put it. 12 billion of exports....Remove farming from this country and see what state we would be in then

How many unemployed would we have?

Nobody is suggesting removing farming from the country but the fact is farming generates lots of CO2 and taxes should be used to try and reduce the amount produced by it. Taxes could be put on high CO2 output farming to encourage people to consume more foods which have lower CO2 outputs.

Below shows the output for various food sources, so by taxing beef and lamb it would encourage people to consume other sources of food resulting is less CO2 but not meaning a reduction in farming.


Source: https://www.ewg.org/meateatersguide/a-meat-eaters-guide-to-climate-change-health-what-you-eat-matters/climate-and-environmental-impacts/

The problem with a tax on fuel is for a lot of people there is no alternative so they will just pay it and not get a coffee or something like that where as with food there is alternatives.

I've also a big gripe with the whole encouraging people into new low CO2 cars, its a false economy in terms of overall CO2 output, I'm far greener keeping my 99 car on the road for as long as possible than scrapping it.

listermint

All things considered it would be nice if a Island nation of this size took the intiative and were energy independent in the next 20 years or so. Pushing more quality renewable's like Denmark for example.

To put it in perspective we are 22nd out of 27 in the EU for renewable energy.

That is painfully poor considering we have Natural resources to fly up that chart.

Why in the world in 2018 we dont have a leading renewable energy sector instead of over reliance on Foreign Multi nationals in the IT sector to prop up our wages and tax base.




1 out of 10 Ireland. 1 out of 10. We have a long way to go.



And no im not saying this carbon tax or any other has an impact. Its rant about how dismal we are for the so called 'Emerald Green Isle'

Shefwedfan

creedp wrote: »

The farming sector would say that wouldn't it!! As would all sectors of the economy. Increasing duty on auto diesel would have a much bigger impact on the economy as would effect all sectors including all consumers. I suppose the question to be asked is why one sector of the economy should continue to be protected above all others?

I don't work in farming. Never have and never will

ELM327

LIGHTNING wrote: »

But you have to remember that the Irish government is mostly made up of idiots. Remember the fiasco of the lowest A tax band? The Government pushed it to get people to buy green cars. Loads of people did then they upped the A band rate by 50%. Irish people taking for suckers as usual.

Anyone who believed diesel was really green has bigger problems imo

listermint wrote: »

All things considered it would be nice if a Island nation of this size took the intiative and were energy independent in the next 20 years or so. Pushing more quality renewable's like Denmark for example.

To put it in perspective we are 22nd out of 27 in the EU for renewable energy.

That is painfully poor considering we have Natural resources to fly up that chart.

Why in the world in 2018 we dont have a leading renewable energy sector instead of over reliance on Foreign Multi nationals in the IT sector to prop up our wages and tax base.




1 out of 10 Ireland. 1 out of 10. We have a long way to go.



And no im not saying this carbon tax or any other has an impact. Its rant about how dismal we are for the so called 'Emerald Green Isle'

Agreed with all of this. I don't see why we don't go for a nuclear/solar/wind/water storage/wave mix. Remove all fossil fuels and be done with it.


Then we could remove all taxes on fossil fuels for transport and I can go back to driving a V8!

Water John

'€12 billion of agricultural exports is great, but we export €30 billion worth of pharmaceuticals, €25 billion worth of chemicals, €11 billion worth of electronics etc.' Quote

The real value of farm products versus the others is the net output. Farming imports to produce the €12Bn are a fraction of the other industries.

Indeed the GHG from farming needs to be looked at, in a serious way. That is from a farmer.

dr.fuzzenstein

Ireland needs to import just about everything, because feck all is manufactured here and there are very little natural resources.
Ireland is completely at the mercy of international markets.
Adding agricultural produce to a looong list of things Ireland doesn't produce and needs to import would be extremely foolish.
And pissing on €12 billion just as much.

Shefwedfan

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Remove the pharmaceutical, IT, construction or electronics industry from the economy and see what happens too.

Nobody is saying farming isn't a big business. I'm saying its not the single backbone of our economy, and is certainly not the biggest revenue generator in the country.

€12 billion of agricultural exports is great, but we export €30 billion worth of pharmaceuticals, €25 billion worth of chemicals, €11 billion worth of electronics etc.

The majority of pharma and technology companies are paying very little tax in this country to what they should be paying....we are just a tax loophole for majority of these companies.....if the UK turned around tomorrow and offer 10% corporate tax they would be gone.....

Also the majority are been funded by the Irish government via the IDA......

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Eric Cartman

cruizer101 wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting removing farming from the country but the fact is farming generates lots of CO2 and taxes should be used to try and reduce the amount produced by it. Taxes could be put on high CO2 output farming to encourage people to consume more foods which have lower CO2 outputs.

Below shows the output for various food sources, so by taxing beef and lamb it would encourage people to consume other sources of food resulting is less CO2 but not meaning a reduction in farming.


Source: https://www.ewg.org/meateatersguide/a-meat-eaters-guide-to-climate-change-health-what-you-eat-matters/climate-and-environmental-impacts/

The problem with a tax on fuel is for a lot of people there is no alternative so they will just pay it and not get a coffee or something like that where as with food there is alternatives.

I've also a big gripe with the whole encouraging people into new low CO2 cars, its a false economy in terms of overall CO2 output, I'm far greener keeping my 99 car on the road for as long as possible than scrapping it.

taxing beef and lamb in the country that is often regarded as having the best meat and dairy in the world is complete insanity, it is one of our largest exports for a reason so g'luck with that.

Mooooo

No point taxing anything untill alternative viable options are in place., including infrastructure etc. By that I mean public transport, charging network, electricity network to make use of small scale generation, homes, farms, businness, etc.
Those suggesting taxing farming, what is the outcome ye wish for.? These things are brought in for global emissions,in farming we produce here and then export the vast majority of our produce. Reduce that and encourage more expansion in South America etc. Or is it the products ye are saying to tax, butter whole milk baby food to change habits and reduce consumption which for our population would make f all difference as our domestic consumption is a small percentage of over all production?

listermint

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The majority of pharma and technology companies are paying very little tax in this country to what they should be paying....we are just a tax loophole for majority of these companies.....if the UK turned around tomorrow and offer 10% corporate tax they would be gone.....

Also the majority are been funded by the Irish government via the IDA......

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What sort of nonsense is this.

The UK is leaving the UK they could drop it to 5 and still not gran all the FDI. Plus contrary to believe their literary and math skills is very sub par.

There is alot to be said for education here and also friendly atmosphere to investment i.e atmosphere to work in.

It's not all down to tax rate but of course that helps.

creedp

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don't work in farming. Never have and never will

Why???

I never said you did. I was just making the point that if you ask any sector if it wanted to be exempted from higher taxes and you'll get the same response along with multiple rational reason in support of the opinion.

I don't really understand why consumers should be hammered to force them to change their behaviour while one sector should be exempted because of their traditional preferential status in Ireland. Bottom line is that farming is a heavy consumer of fossil fuels and producer of CO2. Does the polluter pay principle only apply to certain sectors?

the_syco

Ireland needs to build a few forests, tbh.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

we are small enough country with enough wind/sun to provide electricity without peat....

The problem is storage for the non-windy days.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

we could easily move away for petrol/diesel based traffic to trains etc if people had will power, it’s not like the train tracks would have to long Distances

The trains don't go frequent enough to make this workable.

Mooooo

Mooooo wrote: »

No point taxing anything untill alternative viable options are in place., including infrastructure etc. By that I mean public transport, charging network, electricity network to make use of small scale generation, homes, farms, businness, etc.

Why are everybody whinging that there are no alternatives? There are alternatives: Heating the house with gas or oil and the taxes go up and you can't afford to pay the bills? Insulate the house and you pay dramatically less. Hot water costing too much: Get solar collectors. Just two examples how the carbon taxes can change consumer behaviour.

the_syco

the_syco wrote: »

The trains don't go frequent enough to make this workable.

If more people used the public transportation more would be invested. Seems to work fine in many countries.

Shefwedfan

the_syco wrote: »

Ireland needs to build a few forests, tbh.

They do, if a forest is taken down now the farmer needs to replace, this is in place for a few years

the_syco wrote: »

The problem is storage for the non-windy days.

A mixture of solar with wind would meet a lot of Ireland's requirements

the_syco wrote: »

The trains don't go frequent enough to make this workable.

More people on trains, more money, more trains, more frequent....

ELM327

LIGHTNING wrote: »

What about people who don't live in house (apartments) or don't have the ability to modify the property they live in (renting). Large number of people in that bucket. Public transport is a joke even in Dublin, I can't even imagine how bad it is outside of it.

I live in an apartment, owned, before that I rented for the last decade.
I had an EV at the rental property with home charging, and I have an EV now at my owned apartment and will have my charger installed soon


That being said I would pay a hefty premium to not have to use public transport. Currently my public transport options are an hourly bus which leaves me 10km+ away from work.
I can drive to work at least 30 minutes quicker than the bus gets to the closest point to my job location, 10km away. And it's cheaper to have a car.

techdiver

Shefwedfan wrote: »

More people on trains, more money, more trains, more frequent....

Not in Ireland.

I commute to Dublin by train every day for the last 4 years and the train service has dis-improved (slower journeys, late arrival, packed trains), despite more people using the service.

The direction the government has taken the property market has necessitated many including me to move away from Dublin due to extortionate cost of putting a roof over one's head, so commuting is the only option.

Just this week, Irish Rails revised timetables have increased journey times from mullingar to dublin to 1hr 25 minutes in the morning for a 50 mile trip! How is that incentivising people to use public transport? This also leads to people from outlying commuter towns persisting with driving even though if they were presented with a fast reliable alternative they would take it. This is not happening in Ireland despite the demand for it. I know there has been increased Dart frequency, but that has come at a cost of every other commuter not on the Dart line.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a supporter of reducing our dependence on fossil fuels and I try my best to reduce my own usage, whether it be at home or using a bike instead of car for shorter journeys, but to say the powers that be will make things better if only the pesky commoners did their civic duty and used public transport is patently incorrect.

scamalert

fck me it always boils me down this crap rubbish getting on buses trains, government allows insurers to rape on road tax,nct, insurance that keeps going up, soon it will be ride a donkey situation.


Ireland has only one major city and yes low forest density but thats not the freaking issue, its stupidity that somehow nation of 4mill when every second town in britain is larger has to cough up cash meaning screwing regular joe.


I get EVs can be beneficial but this ****ty drive to keep buying new cars and constant push is pain in the hole, the stupid excuse drop ton of cash on insulating or getting better car etc is stupid excuse, grand if you got cash lying round but main issue there's worse countries pollution wise and they dont give two fingers.


If its costs billions why the hell it goes to EU it should be spend to build windmils left and right plenty of spots, or doing tax incentives to drive cost of importing EV's and other measures that actually benefit, not going straight into someones pocket.

LIGHTNING

LIGHTNING wrote: »

What about people who don't live in house (apartments) or don't have the ability to modify the property they live in (renting). Large number of people in that bucket. Public transport is a joke even in Dublin, I can't even imagine how bad it is outside of it.

It's probably hard enough to ring a big heating bill in an apartment unlike in a badly insulated house. House owners with badly insulated houses get affected by CO2 taxes more and it's in everybody's insterest incenticising such owners improving their energy rating.

Rental market being what it is in Dublin and other cities I can see that many will get even more raw deal going forward in form of higher utility bills. I don't have an answer to that. Hopefully it will lead to landlords getting stuck with wasteful properties in areas of less demand and incenticices them improving quality of their properties.

Going forward the over reliance to private cars in city centres can't go on and luckily in Dublin at least there are plans in place to make public transport and cycling more attractive for more people. That will improve the quality of life for everybody.