Blue Wave - Dublin GAA sought provincial status in 2011

Jaden

legendary.xix wrote: »

They'd be winning a fair level of competition. Dublin v Ulster last Sunday for example would have been a far more even and fair contest. The best players from Tyrone, Monaghan and Donegal would have made up most of the Ulster team.

But once they win this Railway Cup, along with the League and Sam, what issue is solved?

sportsmaddad

I would agree that the idea of Dublin vs the 4 Provinces in a Railway Cup is a complete non-runner. As is Colm Parkinson's suggestion to divide Dublin in 2 or even 4, as put forward on his GAA Hour slot.

But if this Dublin run continues, we cannot just sit back admiring it while the rest fall further behind. And even if say a Kerry or a Mayo or whoever finally dethrones Dublin, it doesn't mean all is rosy in the garden. Right now there are 28 or 29 county football teams in Ireland not within an asses roar of that level. A couple of them might edge closer sporadically, but equally 1 or 2 may drop off.

You might say Kilkenny hurlers looked to be in a similar position up to a couple of years ago. But there's a difference. There is simply no denying that population is a huge factor in Dublin's favour. I know this has always been the way, but Dublin clubs finally seem to have got themselves to a level of organisation that many country clubs have been for years. And in their last 2 managers they've found men to harness the masses and bring them to a formidable level.

But rather than dividing up Dublin, something else needs to be done to somehow give the players, future players, and supporters, of the 60+ other county teams a realistic chance of success. And out of all those 60 teams how many are real contenders? In the last 10 seasons, by my count, 9 different teams have reached the holy grail, 14 in the last 20 seasons (including wins in both codes for Cork and Galway). That leaves over 40 teams, or 20 counties on this island, more than 20 years from a senior All Ireland success.

So no, adding more teams into the mix, with huge population bases, is not the answer. And reducing it down to 5 teams isn't the answer either. But I think something in between has to happen to be fair to all those 20 counties (plus our overseas 'counties') absolutely starved of big-time success.

odyssey06

easy peasy wrote: »

I can happily acknowledge the fantastic work being done in clubs in Dublin that is producing some fantastic players but my issue is with the money available to the county set up in Dublin. There is far too much of an imbalance.

I'll compare Dublin and Mayo. Both counties spent a similar amount last year preparing their senior football teams (Mayo actually slightly more). What this masks is a number of significant points:

1. Mayo have a home ground which needs to be maintained and the debt surrounding its redevelopment needs to be repaid each year. Dublin do not. You can say Parnell Park but that has not had any money invested in it this millennium.

2. Mayo had 5 trips to Croke Park in August and September last year. So five overnight stays at the second most expensive time of the year. Dublin did not have this issue.

3. Mayo raised 1.6m last year in fundraising, Dublin raised 57k. So in order to keep up with Dublin, Mayo had to get donations from the same people who already forked out to travel to Dublin 5 times in August and September.

In my view, these are some things that other counties live with and Dublin do not. Hence why they are unfair advantages. Sponsorship money should be split. End of.

And Dublin has more fans paying in to see matches than anyone else.
That's how the GAA are paying off Croke Park redevelopment costs AND helping to fund redevelopment of stadia across the country.
If Dublin played in a 25,000 stadium that's millions of euros in revenue lost to the GAA through ticket sales, advertising, concessions. It makes no sense to the GAA from a financial sense.

Dublin get €1 million a year through jersey sponsorship. That's because Dublin fans are forking over cash in buying jerseys with sponsor's name on it - the same fans paying in to see the matches or Sky Sports subs! That's how Dublin does fundraising.
Sponsors don't just hand over cash, they will also be getting time and access to management and players.

Dublin are funding senior teams at football and hurling at elite level. Mayo are not. Why not oblige all counties to spend equal funds on both codes?

If you're going to split sponsorship because some counties are benefiting from their natural advantage in population, then split fundraising too, because some counties have natural advantages in tapping up the diaspora for fundraising than others. So why shouldn't Leitrim & Dublin get their share of Kerry and Mayo's fundraising efforts?

Dublin has advantages but it brings benefits to the entire GAA.

There's no magical money tree out there, the money has to come from somewhere and it's coming from Dublin.

legendary.xix

salmocab wrote: »

Nobody would have interest in this rubbish and presumably the idea is that Dublin are no longer in the All Ireland. Luckily it will never be happening and even if somehow it made it to Congress it would be laughed out as absolute horse sh1t.

The GAA didn't laugh when Dublin GAA sought funding and administration of provincial status. The Railway Cup offer the platform to keep the Dublin entity while multiple districts can enter at inter-county level.

Dublin currently has 20% of the population. It's predicted to expand to 40%. Dublin assuming provincial status on the field of play and off it makes perfect sense.

salmocab

legendary.xix wrote: »

The GAA didn't laugh when Dublin GAA sought funding and administration of provincial status. The Railway Cup offer the platform to keep the Dublin entity while multiple districts can enter at inter-county level.

Dublin currently has 20% of the population. It's predicted to expand to 40%. Dublin assuming provincial status on the field of play and off it makes perfect sense.

I’d love to see the funding the 4 imaginary Dublin’s you want would have to get, far more than Dublin get at the moment anyway.
Nobody here believes that you genuinely want this your just playing some sad game to score imaginary points in your pet game of I hate the Dubs.

legendary.xix

Jaden wrote: »

But once they win this Railway Cup, along with the League and Sam, what issue is solved?

Dublin v Ulster is a fairer contest than the following;

Dublin v Tyrone
Dublin v Donegal

Dublin v Connaught is a fairer contest than;

Dublin v Galway
Dublin v Roscommon

Dublin v Leinster is a fairer contest than;

Dublin v Laois
Dublin v Longford
Dublin v Wicklow

The Province of Dublin can be split into 4 district counties. An example using postcodes is as follows;

East Dublin - 1, 3, 5, 13 & 17.
North Dublin - 7, 9, 11, 15 & 20.
South Dublin - 2, 4, 6, 14, 16 & 18.
West Dublin - 8, 10, 12, 22 & 24.

legendary.xix

salmocab wrote: »

I’d love to see the funding the 4 imaginary Dublin’s you want would have to get, far more than Dublin get at the moment anyway.
Nobody here believes that you genuinely want this your just playing some sad game to score imaginary points in your pet game of I hate the Dubs.

I'm very genuine thank you. Dublin through its evolution into a province is a natural solution for the Railway Cup.

The GAA would not let Dublin GAA flounder in a wasteland of a competition. When reality surfaces that Dublin has to be split at inter-county level, the Railway Cup offers a platform to retain the Dublin GAA entity.

The full marketing power of the GAA, coupled with incentives for the best inter county players to represent their province will get the backing of the media and sponsors.

A genuinely high level of competition in the sport will not be a difficult sell to the public.

OldMrBrennan83

legendary.xix wrote: »

Dublin v Ulster is a fairer contest than the following;

Dublin v Tyrone
Dublin v Donegal

Dublin v Connaught is a fairer contest than;

Dublin v Galway
Dublin v Roscommon

Dublin v Leinster is a fairer contest than;

Dublin v Laois
Dublin v Longford
Dublin v Wicklow

The Province of Dublin can be split into 4 district counties. An example using postcodes is as follows;

East Dublin - 1, 3, 5, 13 & 17.
North Dublin - 7, 9, 11, 15 & 20.
South Dublin - 2, 4, 6, 14, 16 & 18.
West Dublin - 8, 10, 12, 22 & 24.

You'd be just cutting out Dublin supporters by taking their team away and have the championship to yourselves. But then again, I think that's the way a lot pf people want this to end.

salmocab

It’s not going to happen, Dublin county board would never want it, Dublin supporters would never want it, GAA would never want it and other counties would never want it.
There would be less money as sponsorship would tank due to lack of interest and more teams looking for money from the smaller pot.

salmocab

Patww79 wrote: »

You'd be just cutting out Dublin supporters by taking their team away and have the championship to yourselves. But then again, I think that's the way a lot pf people want this to end.

Very few would want it, winning an All Ireland shorn of Dublin would mean less to the likes of Kerry and the weaker counties still have next to no hope of winning one along with having less money to do it anyway.

Bonniedog

If Dublin does continue to expand population wise as seems to be lopsided plan contained in Cheap Labour 2040 … sorry, Project 2040 - GAA and any other unique aspects of Irish culture will be on verge of extinction.

Thankfully I shall not be around to see Dublin become St. Denis. The status of the Dublin football team will be the least of your worries then Legend.

In the meantime there is little or no support for splitting Dublin into arbitrary entities based on administrative units which other than Fingal have no historical significance.

tritium

legendary.xix wrote: »

The GAA didn't laugh when Dublin GAA sought funding and administration of provincial status. The Railway Cup offer the platform to keep the Dublin entity while multiple districts can enter at inter-county level.

Dublin currently has 20% of the population. It's predicted to expand to 40%. Dublin assuming provincial status on the field of play and off it makes perfect sense.

I’m pretty sure your statistics are off here....

odyssey06

legendary.xix wrote: »

Dublin v Ulster is a fairer contest than the following;

Dublin v Tyrone
Dublin v Donegal

Dublin v Tyrone or Donegal is as 'fair' in population numbers as Cork v Longford, or Galway v Leitrim.
Or for that matter, France v Croatia in soccer; England v Ireland at rugby; India v Australia at cricket.

It's a fair contest when they step onto the field of play, playing under a neutral referee and by the same rules.

I don't understand your concept of fairness, it's not what I recognise as fairness in sport which is equal application of agreed rules.
But the logical conclusion of your concept of fairness is the country split into a fixed number of equal sized subdivisions. There is zero logical reason to stop at Dublin.

odyssey06

Bonniedog wrote: »

If Dublin does continue to expand population wise as seems to be lopsided plan contained in Cheap Labour 2040 … sorry, Project 2040 - GAA and any other unique aspects of Irish culture will be on verge of extinction.

I'm dubious about this too but simple solution, FIFA grandparents rules but applied to GAA counties!

tritium

sportsmaddad wrote: »

I would agree that the idea of Dublin vs the 4 Provinces in a Railway Cup is a complete non-runner. As is Colm Parkinson's suggestion to divide Dublin in 2 or even 4, as put forward on his GAA Hour slot.

But if this Dublin run continues, we cannot just sit back admiring it while the rest fall further behind. And even if say a Kerry or a Mayo or whoever finally dethrones Dublin, it doesn't mean all is rosy in the garden. Right now there are 28 or 29 county football teams in Ireland not within an asses roar of that level. A couple of them might edge closer sporadically, but equally 1 or 2 may drop off.

You might say Kilkenny hurlers looked to be in a similar position up to a couple of years ago. But there's a difference. There is simply no denying that population is a huge factor in Dublin's favour. I know this has always been the way, but Dublin clubs finally seem to have got themselves to a level of organisation that many country clubs have been for years. And in their last 2 managers they've found men to harness the masses and bring them to a formidable level.

But rather than dividing up Dublin, something else needs to be done to somehow give the players, future players, and supporters, of the 60+ other county teams a realistic chance of success. And out of all those 60 teams how many are real contenders? In the last 10 seasons, by my count, 9 different teams have reached the holy grail, 14 in the last 20 seasons (including wins in both codes for Cork and Galway). That leaves over 40 teams, or 20 counties on this island, more than 20 years from a senior All Ireland success.

So no, adding more teams into the mix, with huge population bases, is not the answer. And reducing it down to 5 teams isn't the answer either. But I think something in between has to happen to be fair to all those 20 counties (plus our overseas 'counties') absolutely starved of big-time success.

But most of those counties have never been in an asses roar of Dublin/ Kerry/ Galway and one or two others. “Fixing” Dublin won’t suddenly change that. All it would do is restore the previous order of those counties being hammered by one of the other big counties. Which is precisely why those other big counties are so keen to “fix” the Dublin “problem”. Oddly they had no problem when their own greater resources were allowing them to be successful but have developed a charitable, socialist view in recent years.

salmocab

tritium wrote: »

But most of those counties have never been in an asses roar of Dublin/ Kerry/ Galway and one or two others. “Fixing” Dublin won’t suddenly change that. All it would do is restore the previous order of those counties being hammered by one of the other big counties. Which is precisely why those other big counties are so keen to “fix” the Dublin “problem”. Oddly they had no problem when their own greater resources were allowing them to be successful but have developed a charitable, socialist view in recent years.

To be fair I don’t think there is much call from big counties for this. I do however think a way needs to be found make more counties competitive and lift their games toward Dublin but not at the ridiculous expense of weakening Dublin.

Sonny678

I think this is quite an interesting topic and does have a serious relevance here. One of the reasons behind Dublins sucess one of the reasons of the growth of GAA in parts of suburbia Dublin , south Dublin , middle class Dublin, is country parents.

There has definitely been a shift in Dublin GAA from working class to more middle class. The classic example is Bonos parish Dalkey winning a hurling club All-Ireland. 10 or 15 years ago this was unimaginable.

Let me explain. If you look at Dublin teams of 70s 80s 90s etc. I would say most players came from Dublin familes. Of course there was some that didnt eg Paul Currans father won All Ireland with Meath, Paddy Christie also I think family was from Meath with a grandfather winning an All Ireland with Meath, Sean Doherty was from Wicklow etc. But many were from Dublin families. Now the current team , so many have country parents. Brogans have a kerry mother, Sullivan has kerry father, McMemanin and quite a few of the players have Donegal parents. So many of the current Dublin team have country parenta. Something has happened.

In the 60s 70s 80s 90s people moved from rural Ireland to Dublin for education or job reasons. They settled down. Many of them were guard teachers , other similar occupations. They brought with them a love of GAA. They passed on to their children two important characteristics, they emphasised education was very important and they gave their children a love a passion of GAA. These families moved to the suburbs and jioned the local Dublin GAA. Today you will find so many individuals who are involved in local Dublin GAA club for twenty or thirty clubs but orginally from the country.

The country parents emphasised the importance of education eg so many current Dublin players have attended third level education. Of course it must be said all county teams now have more third level students then the panels of old which had farmers etc. But these country parents passed on a passion and love of GAA also. So many of the current Dublin team have country parents. This is a simple observational fact.

So the sucess of this Dublin team is down to many things. Brillant managers like Gilroy Farrell and Galvin who changed the mindset of Dublin team players a golden generation of players. But a secondary reason is the migration of country folk to the capital in 70s 80s 90s etc. People used to say migration from western seaboard was one of the reasons for Meaths sucess. On closer examination this wasnt as influential as people thought. Meaths All Irelands wins in 40s 50s and 60s happened when migration was just occurring. It had more impact on teams of 80s and 90s with some players having west of Ireland parents. (But it cannot be solely explained because kildare had just as similar migration from the west but only reached 1 senior All Ireland final in 90 years to Meaths 15 All Ireland senior appearances.)

This current Dublin team is a greater example of migration having a positive on a counties sucess. Its interesting that the first 15 or so All Irelands won by Dublin were basically country lads playing for Dublin. In an All Ireland final in the early 40s between Dublin and kerry the best kerry player was playing for Dublin and best player on the field was a longford man playing for Dublin. Dublin have 7 senior hurling All Irelands, yet only 2 or 3 players born in Dublin have winners medals. As those hurling teams were made of country players. It was not til 50s that you had Dublin players born and bred in Dublin playing and winning All Irelands for Dublin.

And here we have today the current great Dublin team also having such a country dimension to it. I would say that maybe 20% of Dublin teams from 80s and 90s had country parents. I would say 80% plus of the current team or panel have country parents. Its an interesting development.
But there definatly has been a shift of Dublin GAA to the suburbs in recent times. And if you look closely country parents with a love of GAA have had very positive impact on modern Dublin GAA.

I should have said also so many players had fathers on the team also. Thats a very interesting point. You get the feeling there is a real family vibe, togetherness with this Dublin team. That so many of their fathers played for Dublin is a help.
A county that has always had huge family eg, brother father's cousins son playing of course is kilkenny hurling. In kilkeeny you have the Fennellys , the Hendersons , the Powers, the Hennesseys, etc. Surely It's no coincidence that the two greatest teams of the modern era in hurling and football have a great tradition of fathers and sons playing for their county.

sportsmaddad

tritium wrote: »

“Fixing” Dublin won’t suddenly change that. All it would do is restore the previous order of those counties being hammered by one of the other big counties.

That's my point. Breaking up Dublin, or throwing them into a Railway Cup type competition wouldn't fix anything.

My main point is that there are 40 senior county teams in the country who are more than 20 years from an All Ireland success. And leaving aside the likes of Mayo footballers and Waterford hurlers, almost none of those have come close. In an era when near professional standards of team preparation are required, it simply doesn't make sense for the GAA to be spreading the financial resources among 60+ teams, of which 40 or so are no-hopers.

So instead of discussing how to "fix" (or break, depending how you look at it) Dublin, how about a discussion about how we can give GAA players from those 20-odd counties a really realistic chance af reaching the top level? Because right now they're a million miles away. Dublin's runaway success now is simply emphasising how deep the divide is.

Bonniedog

The population of Dublin has quadrupled since the Famine and increased by three times since 1901 and that is just the urban part. It has increased by 100% since 1961.

Like all big cities, it is made up largely of people who come from outside the city or whose parents and grandparent come from outside the city. Of my four grandparents only one was born in Dublin and her father was from Limerick. Belfast is the only other equivalent on the island.

So it is hardly surprising that most Dubs are only a generation or two or three removed from rural origins. That is obviously reflected in the city's sporting traditions as well as in lots of other ways. It doesn't mean that people living here are any less proud of the city, for all its faults. Indeed the football team is probably the main common identifier for Dublin people.


The city is vastly too big for the overall size of the country, and going by Project 2040 that will become even more so over the next 30 years, to the detriment of the city and the rest of Ireland.


Dublin and Ireland will be unrecognizable in 50 years time, and not for the better. In the meantime I intend to enjoy the remaining decades of Dublin GAA as one county, not four county councils!

Powerhouse

Bonniedog wrote: »

The population of Dublin has quadrupled since the Famine and increased by three times since 1901 and that is just the urban part. It has increased by 100% since 1961.

Like all big cities, it is made up largely of people who come from outside the city or whose parents and grandparent come from outside the city. Of my four grandparents only one was born in Dublin and her father was from Limerick. Belfast is the only other equivalent on the island.

So it is hardly surprising that most Dubs are only a generation or two or three removed from rural origins. That is obviously reflected in the city's sporting traditions as well as in lots of other ways. It doesn't mean that people living here are any less proud of the city, for all its faults. Indeed the football team is probably the main common identifier for Dublin people.


The city is vastly too big for the overall size of the country, and going by Project 2040 that will become even more so over the next 30 years, to the detriment of the city and the rest of Ireland.


Dublin and Ireland will be unrecognizable in 50 years time, and not for the better. In the meantime I intend to enjoy the remaining decades of Dublin GAA as one county, not four county councils!

The city is vastly too big for the overall size of the country


Not sure really where you are going with this. While probably true, it is not new. In 1966 Dublin accounted for 28% of the national population. In 2016 the same figure applied.

Bonniedog

Powerhouse wrote: »

The city is vastly too big for the overall size of the country


Not sure really where you are going with this. While probably true, it is not new. In 1966 Dublin accounted for 28% of the national population. In 2016 the same figure applied.

The population of Dublin is projected to be 40% of population of state, and around 30% of island by 2020. Project 2040 will see both of those increase by 2050.

That is just not a healthy state of affairs for an island of this size. Virtually entire future growth is based on the interests of business, most of them multi-nationals, who want to be as close to Dublin as possible with access to cheap immigrant labour. The alleged transport plan is about by-passing established communities and speeding up transit times from the projected high rise apartments on outskirts.


We truly have something to look forward to if London and Paris and Rome and elsewhere are any guide.


Many other parts of the country will be left to wither on the vine, but will paradoxically be more pleasant places to live.

Sheep breeder

Sonny678 wrote: »

I think this is quite an interesting topic and does have a serious relevance here. One of the reasons behind Dublins sucess one of the reasons of the growth of GAA in parts of suburbia Dublin , south Dublin , middle class Dublin, is country parents.

There has definitely been a shift in Dublin GAA from working class to more middle class. The classic example is Bonos parish Dalkey winning a hurling club All-Ireland. 10 or 15 years ago this was unimaginable.

Let me explain. If you look at Dublin teams of 70s 80s 90s etc. I would say most players came from Dublin familes. Of course there was some that didnt eg Paul Currans father won All Ireland with Meath, Paddy Christie also I think family was from Meath with a grandfather winning an All Ireland with Meath, Sean Doherty was from Wicklow etc. But many were from Dublin families. Now the current team , so many have country parents. Brogans have a kerry mother, Sullivan has kerry father, McMemanin and quite a few of the players have Donegal parents. So many of the current Dublin team have country parenta. Something has happened.

In the 60s 70s 80s 90s people moved from rural Ireland to Dublin for education or job reasons. They settled down. Many of them were guard teachers , other similar occupations. They brought with them a love of GAA. They passed on to their children two important characteristics, they emphasised education was very important and they gave their children a love a passion of GAA. These families moved to the suburbs and jioned the local Dublin GAA. Today you will find so many individuals who are involved in local Dublin GAA club for twenty or thirty clubs but orginally from the country.

The country parents emphasised the importance of education eg so many current Dublin players have attended third level education. Of course it must be said all county teams now have more third level students then the panels of old which had farmers etc. But these country parents passed on a passion and love of GAA also. So many of the current Dublin team have country parents. This is a simple observational fact.

So the sucess of this Dublin team is down to many things. Brillant managers like Gilroy Farrell and Galvin who changed the mindset of Dublin team players a golden generation of players. But a secondary reason is the migration of country folk to the capital in 70s 80s 90s etc. People used to say migration from western seaboard was one of the reasons for Meaths sucess. On closer examination this wasnt as influential as people thought. Meaths All Irelands wins in 40s 50s and 60s happened when migration was just occurring. It had more impact on teams of 80s and 90s with some players having west of Ireland parents. (But it cannot be solely explained because kildare had just as similar migration from the west but only reached 1 senior All Ireland final in 90 years to Meaths 15 All Ireland senior appearances.)

This current Dublin team is a greater example of migration having a positive on a counties sucess. Its interesting that the first 15 or so All Irelands won by Dublin were basically country lads playing for Dublin. In an All Ireland final in the early 40s between Dublin and kerry the best kerry player was playing for Dublin and best player on the field was a longford man playing for Dublin. Dublin have 7 senior hurling All Irelands, yet only 2 or 3 players born in Dublin have winners medals. As those hurling teams were made of country players. It was not til 50s that you had Dublin players born and bred in Dublin playing and winning All Irelands for Dublin.

And here we have today the current great Dublin team also having such a country dimension to it. I would say that maybe 20% of Dublin teams from 80s and 90s had country parents. I would say 80% plus of the current team or panel have country parents. Its an interesting development.
But there definatly has been a shift of Dublin GAA to the suburbs in recent times. And if you look closely country parents with a love of GAA have had very positive impact on modern Dublin GAA.

I should have said also so many players had fathers on the team also. Thats a very interesting point. You get the feeling there is a real family vibe, togetherness with this Dublin team. That so many of their fathers played for Dublin is a help.
A county that has always had huge family eg, brother father's cousins son playing of course is kilkenny hurling. In kilkeeny you have the Fennellys , the Hendersons , the Powers, the Hennesseys, etc. Surely It's no coincidence that the two greatest teams of the modern era in hurling and football have a great tradition of fathers and sons playing for their county.

Excellent post and very true, and the mangers in Dublin are players who have served their time through the ranks and it’s all about the team and not the individual. As a non dub you have to look at other sports in Dublin and what the gaa has to compete with, like how many LOI teams are in Dublin and how strong is rugby in Dublin.
What could be done to help other counties a bit, is like the loan period that the premiership has with fringe players going out to play to help that team and get game time, surly some of thr Dublin panel into wicklow, Carlow, Kildare etc would help.
As for the post on ballymun very true, hard work makes a club. The strongest team in my county for the last twenty years is based on one mantra, when a senior player retires he has to get involved in coaching under age, management, running the club, ladies football, and has to give back what he got out of the club and they never go outside the club for a manager, trainer etc.