Werewolf: The Stephen King Multiverse Edition FEEDBACK THREAD

Baggly

Hello all,

Feedback thread to provide your thoughts on the Stephen King themed game.

• Please keep all feedback constructive.
  
• Please be considerate of the mods time in putting the game together and running it.
  
• The game is over so lets all leave any fights or disagreements from within the game just there; within the game.
  
• Kudos and thank you's can go here or in the game thread.

I would like to be the first (in this thread anyway) to congratulate the game mods on a fantastic game! Congrats to all players as well - it was an excellent game to watch on from the sidelines for!

Game thread

Game highlights / Events

Bit short

Jack Moore

Best game yet

Obviously the village was save by mr and Mrs Molly so well done guys

Big shout out to Duffers for never backing down

And sorry keithy I didn’t know you were my teammate

Rikand

I think if a sub needs to be made, the mods should announce it.

post something like this ::

---

Jimmy has subbed in for Johnny

Do not discuss anything related to this sub or the possible reasons for it.

---

Made no difference in the end as Abigail GOATed and the wolves had no choice but to kill her

Baggly

I found the amount of roles within the game a very challenging aspect to wrap my head around before the game started. I think there were only 5 NRVs? But in the end, i dont think it affected the game adversely.

If the kill rate on the evils side had been a bit higher for a bit longer i think the core that ended up developing could have been neutralised. C'est la vie though!

The 2 accounts for 1 player idea was great! Its a shame both were under suspicion but, again, c'est la vie.

Id love to hear about the time committment from both players and mods on this game, given its complexity.

Necro

Pter wrote: »

I found the amount of roles within the game a very challenging aspect to wrap my head around before the game started. I think there were only 5 NRVs? But in the end, i dont think it affected the game adversely.

If the kill rate on the evils side had been a bit higher for a bit longer i think the core that ended up developing could have been neutralised. C'est la vie though!

The 2 accounts for 1 player idea was great! Its a shame both were under suspicion but, again, c'est la vie.

Id love to hear about the time committment from both players and mods on this game, given its complexity.

:pac: Technically there were 9. Four of the Losers Club had no powers either, but yeah. The intention was to create an absorbing game where most players had something to do other than sit around on their haunches and work stuff out.

Time commitment.... Planning began in April of this year. Soooo many things were left on the editing room floor that we wanted to pack into the game, but just couldn't.

Hopefully everyone enjoyed it anyways, despite certain issues, that was the aim.

I think the lack of speed days worked, I know the game was long, but that was down to a couple of things happening in game we had no control over.

I would say though for future attempts at no speed days to up the kill rate or have a limited number of players ie: 20.

Rikand

If you're going to run a game on Stephen King, dont make a mod played character called Jack Torrance and THEN only modkill one person!

There could have been like 6 legitimate modkills in this game all for valid reasons and I tell ya, people would have been scared sh!tless of Jack like they ought to have been

Rikand

Necrominus wrote: »

I would say though for future attempts at no speed days to up the kill rate or have a limited number of players ie: 20.

Or add more killing roles

An odd night vig/even night seer type role or a JOAT or wolf roleblocker vig - is a roleblocker until he vigs someone. Or make Cujo's bite a posion that kills someone at the end of the day

Necro

Rikand wrote: »

If you're going to run a game on Stephen King, dont make a mod played character called Jack Torrance and THEN only modkill one person!

There could have been like 6 legitimate modkills in this game all for valid reasons and I tell ya, people would have been scared sh!tless of Jack like they ought to have been

Yeah, we probably should have been stricter regarding the rules re: modkills but we operated on the basis of giving players warnings the first time.

We were trying to avoid any if at all possible to be honest but in hindsight maybe should have been stricter.

Just your other comment, more killing roles were there, just never activated.

Carrie's revenge kill was instantaneous (Wolves peeked and outed her though so )

Jake's revival of ANY kill (not just lynches, read your bloody PM Guffy :pac:) would kill him at the next lynch also.

duffman13

I'm gonna read the backrooms tomorrow and I'll report back but overall really enjoyed the games. I think speed days even though I hate them, are the lesser of two evils Some effort and thought went into that game fair play mods and Stu popping his cherry

Banjo

Never understood why you run the speed day on a Friday when the frequent lynches and munches are going to clash with work and commutes rather than play normally over the weekend when people tend to have fewer commitments. Seems to favour a game ending analysis-wise on the Thursday and then almost playing out on autopilot, which is a sad end for a game, and certainly would have made this game poorer.

Luckily I never make past the 3rd lynch so it's much of a muchness to me. But the end of this game I feel (as an onlooker) suffered from the break over the weekend which robbed it a little of momentum, but benefitted from the players having time to fully analyse the munches and lynches that followed.

Guffy

Why wasnt frank mod killed?

Liked the break on saturday.

Could have done with speed days after that but no way of doing that without tipping the hand to the village that they were on right track i guess.


Seen earlier post ye didnt want to. Fair enough i guess.


Not only did i not read my pm properly but i didnt read the op properly either not knowing everyone had a backroom

duffman13

Wow, somehow the consensus on Jack Moore was that his Eva play was not in contravention of rule 10. That move with 6 players left might have some merit but context is everything and that was a suicide run. It was beyond bizarre, the numbers were never there for a play like that to work. I'd rather discuss this on thread rather than COP hence my posting here but if it doesn't belong here then fair enough.

I play in good faith, that very simply everyone is playing to win. Eva making that play with a 2nd account is different but being in the situation she was in was nuts and was not winnable. In my opinion it was flagrant breach of rule 10. There were still 20 odd players left, how was she going to survive a minimum of probably 7 lynches to win after that nonsense.

I dont know if anyone is going to address the elephant in the room and the mask slipping but Jack Moore has played a lot more than two games on boards too.

As regards all other aspects of the game I didn't have any issues bar the length, I dont think I could commit to a game again that rolled into a 2nd week without speed days. The amount of failed kills/mechanics didn't help and we had similar in the Eastenders game but I'm sure the mods felt it aswell. I loved modding but by Friday I was spent so I feel for the mods here.

Mechanics, roles, intrigue were evidenced no more than by Phil and where his theories took him. I was happy as a wolf, I'd have been lost as a villager. It was ridiculously well put together and for that I again thank the mods.

Thanks for also keeping me going over the weekend

Banjo

duffman13 wrote: »

I play in good faith, that very simply everyone is playing to win. Eva making that play with a 2nd account is different but being in the situation she was in was nuts and was not winnable. In my opinion it was flagrant breach of rule 10. There were still 20 odd players left, how was she going to survive a minimum of probably 7 lynches to win after that nonsense.

It put me in mind of the WWE game when Vernon came out basically screaming "look at me I'm king of of the wolves!" and as a village we shrugged and hung the poor ****er. I'd think twice now before doing that again. As I imagine would most, I mean what kind of lunatic would just out themselves like that? And I think to make that play you have to go early, before you're in the spotlight for any other reason. But it is an all-or-nothing.
If you are in a team of one, notwithstanding that being because you accidentally ate your partner, you're better placed than many to decide what's in your team's interest.

The thing is, while there are many surer paths to victory, do you want to watch a village of 30 Clodaghs waste away quietly into dust? As an audience member it was a hell of a memorable moment and god help anyone who gets mind controlled in the future!

Caveat : I say this as a player who can't play quietly, is never a wolf and always gets lynched early, so I don't understand mid to end game from the inside.

I dont know if anyone is going to address the elephant in the room and the mask slipping but Jack Moore has played a lot more than two games on boards too.

Has that rapscallion Vale returned? He's confounded us all again, the knave!

duffman13

Banjo wrote: »

It put me in mind of the WWE game when Vernon came out basically screaming "look at me I'm king of of the wolves!" and as a village we shrugged and hung the poor ****er. I'd think twice now before doing that again. As I imagine would most, I mean what kind of lunatic would just out themselves like that? And I think to make that play you have to go early, before you're in the spotlight for any other reason. But it is an all-or-nothing.
If you are in a team of one, notwithstanding that being because you accidentally ate your partner, you're better placed than many to decide what's in your team's interest.

The thing is, while there are many surer paths to victory, do you want to watch a village of 30 Clodaghs waste away quietly into dust? As an audience member it was a hell of a memorable moment and god help anyone who gets mind controlled in the future!

Caveat : I say this as a player who can't play quietly, is never a wolf and always gets lynched early, so I don't understand mid to end game from the inside.

Has that rapscallion Vale returned? He's confounded us all again, the knave!

Two things with this, you play to win! Jack didn't, he played to disrupt in my opinion and couldn't win. He had maybe a 5% chance of winning, instead he took the 2nd option which left him 0% chance of winning. It's a rule breach

Secondly, this game is here for the people who participate, it's not a spectator sport. Some people love to watch it and that's brilliant and if we can make a fun game to watch and play then it's a winner. It made a memorable moment for the spectator but took away from the enjoyment of the participants (Some of them anyway).

To your other point about game style, I dont have an issue with people playing differently at all. In my own backroom put forward a plan on Friday to munch Angus, our own team mate, discussions were had and we leaned against it even though it likely would have meant a different outcome to the game. We wanted to win while protecting the integrity of the game.

WW is hugely dependant on its players. The wrong role in the wrong hands is dangerous. Weeks and months of work could be screwed by one person getting fed up. I was dead in this game since Thursday, I still tried to win with no bull**** like we seen from JM.

Banjo

I did participate. I was only in a day and i still have a higher post count than several players who survived till the end had on Sunday morning when they finally had to move to avoid Jack's axe.

I appreciate what you're saying, but it's against a backdrop of a game that repeatedly rewards those who don't contribute until forced and punishes those who engage by killing them. Or in Phil's case refusing to let him die.

Jack Moore

duffman13 wrote: »

Two things with this, you play to win! Jack didn't, he played to disrupt in my opinion and couldn't win. He had maybe a 5% chance of winning, instead he took the 2nd option which left him 0% chance of winning. It's a rule breach

Secondly, this game is here for the people who participate, it's not a spectator sport. Some people love to watch it and that's brilliant and if we can make a fun game to watch and play then it's a winner. It made a memorable moment for the spectator but took away from the enjoyment of the participants (Some of them anyway).

To your other point about game style, I dont have an issue with people playing differently at all. In my own backroom put forward a plan on Friday to munch Angus, our own team mate, discussions were had and we leaned against it even though it likely would have meant a different outcome to the game. We wanted to win while protecting the integrity of the game.

WW is hugely dependant on its players. The wrong role in the wrong hands is dangerous. Weeks and months of work could be screwed by one person getting fed up. I was dead in this game since Thursday, I still tried to win with no bull**** like we seen from JM.

It simply wasn’t a rule breach because if it were the mods wouldn’t have said “it’s not a rule breech”

It was a unconvential and risky move but you are the only person who thinks it was a breech.
At no point was I fed up and I played to win I think you have confused the lies told by Eva with my true feelings.
I assume you were Vernon whom I identified as a wolf through his reaction.
That is part of the game , the rest of the play was outline in the spoilers thread and in my backroom but you will see that at no point did anyone say it was a rule breech accept you.

Bounty Hunter

I don't think the length would have been an issue for most if a few things happened differently. For example it was our vigs first game and he didn't know how to fire a gun. In a normal game that could equaled 3 more deaths and sped things up / got folk talking.

Maybe if a game is planned for that length again there can be tasks or competitions for extra days at the end too to keep things interesting. Even if one of the spheres was done a day or two later for example although I did like them being timed shortly after munch when the thread was busy.

Once Eva revealed it was a massive up hill battle for the wolves to make it a competition too. Fair play to my remaining team mates they did their best however.

I'm not a fan of the Eva reveal at all for this reason. Many people on thread questioned if it contravened rule 10 and screwed the wolves. They didn't know a mind control play was planned long term and such a play imo was the only real way to make Eva's move valid but it never materialized so I understand people feeling aggrieved. Why not just claim the mind control lasted 6hrs or 10hrs instead of 24hrs or something similar would have given you a much better chance to survive a subsequent lynching.

I like delaying deadroom access a little bit for players after they die incase there is no subs list and they are needed to sub back in for inactive players. There were too many quiet players in this village. My biggest problem is not being able to keep schtum at times and let others draw heat on themselves that becomes so much more of an issue if most of the group is staying silent.

Great game mods. 'Twas only my 2nd as a wolf and perhaps my worst performance thus far but still loved it and raring to go next time.

quickbeam

Guffy wrote: »

Why wasnt frank mod killed?

Same reason Abigail wasn't, and Conor wouldn't have been if we'd had somebody able to take over the account (neither sKeith, who'd already peeked two players, or P* who knew his mason team-mate would have been suitable for the Priest role - we needed somebody with zero information).

quickbeam

duffman13 wrote: »

I dont know if anyone is going to address the elephant in the room and the mask slipping but Jack Moore has played a lot more than two games on boards too.

The elephant is part of the Board's mods' department. But as I understand it, no rule has been broken.

Jack Moore

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

I don't think the length would have been an issue for most if a few things happened differently. For example it was our vigs first game and he didn't know how to fire a gun. In a normal game that could equaled 3 more deaths and sped things up / got folk talking.

Maybe if a game is planned for that length again there can be tasks or competitions for extra days at the end too to keep things interesting. Even if one of the spheres was done a day or two later for example although I did like them being timed shortly after munch when the thread was busy.

Once Eva revealed it was a massive up hill battle for the wolves to make it a competition too. Fair play to my remaining team mates they did their best however.

I'm not a fan of the Eva reveal at all for this reason. Many people on thread questioned if it contravened rule 10 and screwed the wolves. They didn't know a mind control play was planned long term and such a play imo was the only real way to make Eva's move valid but it never materialized so I understand people feeling aggrieved. Why not just claim the mind control lasted 6hrs or 10hrs instead of 24hrs or something similar would have given you a much better chance to survive a subsequent lynching.

I like delaying deadroom access a little bit for players after they die incase there is no subs list and they are needed to sub back in for inactive players. There were too many quiet players in this village. My biggest problem is not being able to keep schtum at times and let others draw heat on themselves that becomes so much more of an issue if most of the group is staying silent.

Great game mods. 'Twas only my 2nd as a wolf and perhaps my worst performance thus far but still loved it and raring to go next time.

The idea was to claim that it spend 1 day logged into your account and had to survive the following munch and lynch and you got the acc back
Cujo was 24 hours
The orbs wer each24 hours
So pennywise was 24 hours you can see I switched style immediatly as if pennywise had shifted

The reveal didn’t happen because I was lynched, whether or not you thought it was a good move or not is irrelevant my point is it was designed to brink chaos into the game to allow me a chance.

Baggly

Mod note

Jack, everyone's feedback is relevant. Please do not dismiss other people's, just like no-one is dismissing yours. Thanks.

tritium

duffman13 wrote: »

Wow, somehow the consensus on Jack Moore was that his Eva play was not in contravention of rule 10. That move with 6 players left might have some merit but context is everything and that was a suicide run. It was beyond bizarre, the numbers were never there for a play like that to work. I'd rather discuss this on thread rather than COP hence my posting here but if it doesn't belong here then fair enough.

I play in good faith, that very simply everyone is playing to win. Eva making that play with a 2nd account is different but being in the situation she was in was nuts and was not winnable. In my opinion it was flagrant breach of rule 10. There were still 20 odd players left, how was she going to survive a minimum of probably 7 lynches to win after that nonsense.

I dont know if anyone is going to address the elephant in the room and the mask slipping but Jack Moore has played a lot more than two games on boards too.

As regards all other aspects of the game I didn't have any issues bar the length, I dont think I could commit to a game again that rolled into a 2nd week without speed days. The amount of failed kills/mechanics didn't help and we had similar in the Eastenders game but I'm sure the mods felt it aswell. I loved modding but by Friday I was spent so I feel for the mods here.

Mechanics, roles, intrigue were evidenced no more than by Phil and where his theories took him. I was happy as a wolf, I'd have been lost as a villager. It was ridiculously well put together and for that I again thank the mods.

Thanks for also keeping me going over the weekend

Just on that, and only my two cents. Eva I felt was already under some pressure (more was coming) and it’s not the first game where a wolf has played the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” card. Yes it was never going to work, but equally I think Eva’s goose was already cooked. Previous games we’ve seen Murray look to play that to shaft village, and Molly lynched on bad info from a “regretful” wolf. Way I see it Eva looked to extend their game by working with the village, and we rightfully lynched them for it. Unlikely to work but it’s one option imho - for context, folks here have heard me say when I’m a wolf that any baddie win is a win. I don’t actually believe that for a second, but it’s an idea that has its uses. If things are bleak or going against you using one of the other teams to help is fine imho.

On who players are, once mods are ok with the list and players behave I’ve no issue playing with anyone. I don’t really hold on to the past.

On the game itself, I absolutely loved it. Not playing saturdays was the right call in my opinion. I suspect I wouldn’t be the only one who would find weekend play harder to fit in. If it had gone to later this week that would have been very long but I think that’s more how it played out. I agree with someone’s point that speed days can feel like autopilot- I was on edge all today waiting for frank to jump on with one last futile attempt to switch the lynch order. I’d certainly like to see more of the longer format games.

Some of the ambiguity in the op was frustrating. That’s more about my play style though and I get why it was done that way. It’s just sooo frustrating when your teammates are insisting coffey can’t survive a lynch after you reveal and tell them to lynch you- like seriously

duffman13

Banjo wrote: »

I did participate. I was only in a day and i still have a higher post count than several players who survived till the end had on Sunday morning when they finally had to move to avoid Jack's axe.

I appreciate what you're saying, but it's against a backdrop of a game that repeatedly rewards those who don't contribute until forced and punishes those who engage by killing them. Or in Phil's case refusing to let him die.

I wasnt saying you weren't playing, i was posting in reply to you saying you enjoyed it as a spectator.

Look I dont have an issue with your opinions on low posters, I think at the end of day 2, 3 of the 5 top posters were wolves/sk, I was frustrated no end at times as even in the backroom we couldn't lay down a strategy because we had no input from Frank about his role. Real life **** comes up but we could have had a few modkills. That's difficult for mods and I wouldn't like the thoughts of the rebalance tbh.

Between backroom and boards, using the Frank and Vernon accounts I'd probably close to 1000 posts but i dunno how you deal with low posters, 5 post rule is a minimum, some used it as a target.

duffman13

Jack Moore wrote: »

It simply wasn’t a rule breach because if it were the mods wouldn’t have said “it’s not a rule breech”

It was a unconvential and risky move but you are the only person who thinks it was a breech.
At no point was I fed up and I played to win I think you have confused the lies told by Eva with my true feelings.
I assume you were Vernon whom I identified as a wolf through his reaction.
That is part of the game , the rest of the play was outline in the spoilers thread and in my backroom but you will see that at no point did anyone say it was a rule breech accept you.

I have read everything before posting tbh, your play couldn't win, it could cause chaos alright but it was a 0% game for you after you said you were IT. Also at least one other poster on thread mentioned rule 10 during the time of your reveal and we were originally told you'd been spoken too.

My response at that stage was it was already too late and a modkill was a nail for the wolves. The game ended on your play, the only team that could win was the village and you weren't part of the village team.

Finally I'm all for unconventional play, I had an idea for one myself, but at the end of the day your plan was never working in my opinion. If you said nothing you'd have made it to Friday with two days to make an alternative play.

You can happily stand over your claim it wasn't in breach of rule 10 but i dont agree with it.

duffman13

tritium wrote: »

Just on that, and only my two cents. Eva I felt was already under some pressure (more was coming) and it’s not the first game where a wolf has played the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” card. Yes it was never going to work, but equally I think Eva’s goose was already cooked. Previous games we’ve seen Murray look to play that to shaft village, and Molly lynched on bad info from a “regretful” wolf. Way I see it Eva looked to extend their game by working with the village, and we rightfully lynched them for it. Unlikely to work but it’s one option imho - for context, folks here have heard me say when I’m a wolf that any baddie win is a win. I don’t actually believe that for a second, but it’s an idea that has its uses. If things are bleak or going against you using one of the other teams to help is fine imho.

On who players are, once mods are ok with the list and players behave I’ve no issue playing with anyone. I don’t really hold on to the past.

On the game itself, I absolutely loved it. Not playing saturdays was the right call in my opinion. I suspect I wouldn’t be the only one who would find weekend play harder to fit in. If it had gone to later this week that would have been very long but I think that’s more how it played out. I agree with someone’s point that speed days can feel like autopilot- I was on edge all today waiting for frank to jump on with one last futile attempt to switch the lynch order. I’d certainly like to see more of the longer format games.

Some of the ambiguity in the op was frustrating. That’s more about my play style though and I get why it was done that way. It’s just sooo frustrating when your teammates are insisting coffey can’t survive a lynch after you reveal and tell them to lynch you- like seriously

Here lies the issue IMO, if its not going to work and nail you the cross then why do it? You said never going to work but Eva's goose was cooked. Eva had two days before she'd have been lynched IMO. A lot happens in two days.

Timing is critical and context was key. Angus was getting lynched, the whole thing was bizarre.

On your point about people's playing past, I actually don't have an issue on Jack or his previous incarnation. He was fairly helpful to me in my first game. I never had an issue with him, I had an issue with his tactics. I was pissed off at the time and I didn't know who it was till later in the afternoon.

Lord TSC

I've had the few days to cool down since it all happened but I think this....

duffman13 wrote: »

Here lies the issue IMO, if its not going to work and nail you the cross then why do it? You said never going to work but Eva's goose was cooked. Eva had two days before she'd have been lynched IMO. A lot happens in two days.

...is my view as well. The second Ewan came out in contest to Angus as seer, and put me as a wolf, Eva was bulletproof for at least two lynches. Coupled with the fact Ewan had put a path forward for the wolves to net their bonus kill as well, 2 extra SK lynches could have strategically plundered the village. Whether or not the plan was to claim mind control, the second Eva uttered the words "I'm the last SK", then that was end game for Team SK. The village HAD to lynch Eva, just to be sure, and to guarantee one less kill in the following morning.

Mind, I've reached a point where if the argument is it wasn't a deliberate rule break but just a really ill-thought out play, so be it.

tritium

duffman13 wrote: »

Here lies the issue IMO, if its not going to work and nail you the cross then why do it? You said never going to work but Eva's goose was cooked. Eva had two days before she'd have been lynched IMO. A lot happens in two days.

Timing is critical and context was key. Angus was getting lynched, the whole thing was bizarre.

On your point about people's playing past, I actually don't have an issue on Jack or his previous incarnation. He was fairly helpful to me in my first game. I never had an issue with him, I had an issue with his tactics. I was pissed off at the time and I didn't know who it was till later in the afternoon.

Equally Eva tried to buy themselves 1-2 turns by offering to help us. You could do a lot with that time- shaft some power villagers, claim mind control, plead innocence and game looks very different

I agree timing is crucial. Wolves put their final nail in the Star Wars game by their timing of a “remorseful” wolf. Was playing for the other wolf team against the spirit of the game? I don’t think so. Harder to get the right timing when you’re on the back foot but sometimes you just have to make a play. It’s up to wolves to con us, it’s up to village to not be conned.

Mollyb60

tritium wrote: »

Yeah... who tunnels like that...it’s not like myself or Mick or jayop or molly (I think) basically managed to help the wolves win one of the early game on this forum because we tunneled each other so hard .

Power play, my eternal nightmare

mod note: moved from game thread to feedback thread.

Yeah game 2, my first game ever. The tunnel was deep and helped quiet wolves win. For shame.

Mods created a fantastic game here. Well done to Necro, QB and Stu. I LOVED that almost everyone had a role. LOVED the 2 accounts for the SK, LOVED having a backroom, and LOVED being the app priest (shout out to Conor for bowing out and letting me have a go at it - and Drummer you were right, my role was not in the OP, coz it wasn't supposed to be a role afaik!). Having the role kept me levelheaded (mostly) and stopped me from throwing a wobbler. So no Molly awards for this game. Although I might just give it to Drummer for the most amazing theories.

It was very interesting playing with Mr Molly this game. We did everything we could to keep our roles secret, to the point that even up until I died I wasn't 100% sure whether he was really the seer or not. Unfortunately we did cop each other's anon accounts pretty quickly but that wasn't the end of the world. And to find that I was the priest and he was the seer was a real kick. A very spiritual household! :cool:

It's just a pity for me that the game dragged on so long. I felt exhausted at the end of it and I died Sunday morning. I know that had the Vigilante taken some shots it might've been over sooner (no offense CBG) but it was too long for me. I totally understand the thinking behind no speed days and Barbara/Rickand's really wonderful post analysing the voting histories yesterday is a true example of how the later game needs the full length days to properly deal with all the info you've been given. But having a game running for 10 days is just too long for me. I don't know what the alternative is though.

Baggly

I think the Eva play would have been amazing had Eva had the chance to complete the plan and claim a body swap. As i mentioned before, Eva was under heat so not sure that was gonna happen.

Ive gone back and forth on that play since i first saw it. It was interesting from a spectators POV, and would have been amazing if it had come off. I dont think it had a great shot of working and i remember thinking how is this going to play out; but it was Jack's prerogative to try it if he wanted. As he said in COP, he was under no obligation to the wolves to save the game for them or not mess their chances up.

It was, imo, a long shot but then lots of us try long shots all the time. I did it as Clodagh claiming seer in the Easties game. Beaker does it every other game claiming whatever role he doesn't have.

By my reading, there was no rule breakage with regards playing in the interests of your character; but ultimately the game mods made their decision on it and, as Lord has said, so be it.

Drumpot

Jack Moore wrote: »

The idea was to claim that it spend 1 day logged into your account and had to survive the following munch and lynch and you got the acc back
Cujo was 24 hours
The orbs wer each24 hours
So pennywise was 24 hours you can see I switched style immediatly as if pennywise had shifted

The reveal didn’t happen because I was lynched, whether or not you thought it was a good move or not is irrelevant my point is it was designed to brink chaos into the game to allow me a chance.

Well it confused me. I think some people might agree (if you twist their arm) that I brought chaos into the game... But I’m not sure they will thank either of us...

Drumpot

I liked the break Saturday but foolishly spent the entire day working on some theories as by BR will show....

But it was very long. I wasn’t around Sunday but a speed day would of been good.

I’m not sure how or if dealing with app roles or roles swapped can be done much better. I mean the village won well but I found the non rolled not in OP roles difficult to believe. I suppose I would bring that up so maybe it’s just my blindspot.

Is there a better way for subs or switches (mod kills - re balances) to be announced particularly to be fairer on the person who is getting the role or “gift”? Abigail didn’t seem to get much of a shot if I remember correctly? (Can’t remember to be honest).

Like if a person is a sub and comes in their posting style could be very different and they could be killed or discussed a lot just because they are helping out... was frank replaced? Very difficult for the village to figure him out and if people had time could possibly of seen a difference in his posting...

duffman13

Drumpot wrote: »

I liked the break Saturday but foolishly spent the entire day working on some theories as by BR will show....

But it was very long. I wasn’t around Sunday but a speed day would of been good.

I’m not sure how or if dealing with app roles or roles swapped can be done much better. I mean the village won well but I found the non rolled not in OP roles difficult to believe. I suppose I would bring that up so maybe it’s just my blindspot.

Is there a better way for subs or switches (mod kills - re balances) to be announced particularly to be fairer on the person who is getting the role or “gift”? Abigail didn’t seem to get much of a shot if I remember correctly? (Can’t remember to be honest).

Like if a person is a sub and comes in their posting style could be very different and they could be killed or discussed a lot just because they are helping out... was frank replaced? Very difficult for the village to figure him out and if people had time could possibly of seen a difference in his posting...

I was Vernon, Frank was struggling to meet posting requirements so I stepped in around 7pm on Sunday and tried to get involved on that account. I literally hit posts required and then got stuck in once Vernon was lynched.

I love big complex games and the sub thing is an issue in all games. We had no bench so if a sub is announced Meta kicks in and you presume that must be important if they've got a sub. If you have a sub then you can announce it on thread and its less sussy but no subs bench makes you think the new guy is roled. Maybe that's just me though.

Drumpot

duffman13 wrote: »

I was Vernon, Frank was struggling to meet posting requirements so I stepped in around 7pm on Sunday and tried to get involved on that account. I literally hit posts required and then got stuck in once Vernon was lynched.

I love big complex games and the sub thing is an issue in all games. We had no bench so if a sub is announced Meta kicks in and you presume that must be important if they've got a sub. If you have a sub then you can announce it on thread and its less sussy but no subs bench makes you think the new guy is roled. Maybe that's just me though.

So that’s why I got on so well with Vernon and frank!!!

I like that though. A player who is bad and is familiar with the dynamics of the game takin over effectively a similar role. I didn’t know that but it worked really well..

As far as big complex games goes you can see how that worked out for me.. But I have to admit they are fun...

Necro

I see there's a good bit of debate regarding the Jack Moore play, I see both sides.

For one thing duffers, I 100% totally agree that the play wasn't going to work. I could see that from the get go but there comes a point when mods have to let players do what they feel is in the best interests of their team.

Likewise, the wolves attempting to munch one of their own - the mods could see the bigger picture here, but you guys couldn't so I was very conflicted:

A) Frank had yet to tell you the extra munch for killing Doris was not immediate.
Killing Cujo at night would have given Wendy Cujo's role, as the roleblock ends immediately.
C) Gertie was due to die that day at 2.40pm leaving you likely to be lynched and Frank all alone (in that case we would have just ended the game on a modkill more than likely).

However, you guys knew none of this. So the conflict I had was that you guys truly believed this was in the interest of your team, and who was I to stop you?

Hence why I relented and gave you Annie's PM info, as that should have been info your team mate shared. I hoped that would put you off the idea, but at the end of the day - had you put in Angus for the kill I would have allowed it to go through, same as we allowed Eva to make her play, despite me knowing both would not work at all.

That's all I'm really going to say about that tbh, hope you understand my perspective on it.

quickbeam

Drumpot wrote: »

I liked the break Saturday but foolishly spent the entire day working on some theories as by BR will show....

But it was very long. I wasn’t around Sunday but a speed day would of been good.

I’m not sure how or if dealing with app roles or roles swapped can be done much better. I mean the village won well but I found the non rolled not in OP roles difficult to believe. I suppose I would bring that up so maybe it’s just my blindspot.

Is there a better way for subs or switches (mod kills - re balances) to be announced particularly to be fairer on the person who is getting the role or “gift”? Abigail didn’t seem to get much of a shot if I remember correctly? (Can’t remember to be honest).

Like if a person is a sub and comes in their posting style could be very different and they could be killed or discussed a lot just because they are helping out... was frank replaced? Very difficult for the village to figure him out and if people had time could possibly of seen a difference in his posting...

Abigail did just fine, IMO. Did almost as much damage to the wolves as Eva did.

There are two types of subs.

(1) Where an account is taken over by a different player, be that a sub, or a dead player. This happened with Abigail (a sub) and with Frank (a dead player). In neither case can the person going in to the account have more information than they ought. In the case of Abigail, P* hadn't been in the Deadroom so was coming to it fresh. In the case of Frank, Duffman as Vernon had no more or no less information than Frank had as they had shared a back room. This, btw, wouldn't have worked for Molly stepping in to Ewan account. As much as Wendy believed Ewan, and vice versa, they can't have KNOWN that they were both on the up, but swapping her in to his account would have been just too much information for one player to KNOW.

(2) Where there is nobody suitable to take over the account, so the role is given to a different player. This is what happened when Conor couldn't play any more and there was nobody suitable to take over playing, so the role was given to Wendy/Sadie/Molly. We would have rathered a (1) option with Conor but there was nobody available to take over the role that didn't already have too much information. We debated about the extent of information Wendy would get - all previous and future Priest information; old information only; new information only - and plumped for the last option.

There are arguments to be made pro and con about what mods should do with announcements. Personally I thought saying Abigail had changed player was the way to go, but I didn't fight hard for it as there was arguments for letting P* proceed without this information. There was some criticism of our final decision, but as said above, P* did just fine even without mod clarifying this.

The biggest upside of using anon accounts is that (1) options above can be done smoothly without a mod announcement. Using our own accounts, mods would, of course, have to announce any change. But, as much as we like to think we don't take meta into consideration, once a mod makes an announcement, players will think - "this must be an important role, they'd not have swapped out a NRV". So, that is the biggest argument for NOT announcing a role swap where it can be avoided.

Jack Moore

Drumpot wrote: »

Well it confused me. I think some people might agree (if you twist their arm) that I brought chaos into the game... But I’m not sure they will thank either of us...

I wasn’t looking for thanks anymore than any other player is from the people not in his team I was looking to knock every other player out.

The post by Quickbeam in the wolves room confirming that I was bluffingvrater than being nine controlled ment I hadntva hope, I have no idea why she would post that after the mods had stated that what I was doing was legit.

Gordie Lachance
Mods discussed this, and (after a LENGTHY debate) felt he was not playing in the best interest of his team and gave him a warning to cut it out.

Fine fine my reaction is in my room something along the lines of “your the boss Necro I don’t ageee but I’ll do whatever you say “

It was also brought to the Deadroom, where the consensus seemed to be that he was trying something out, and not breaking any rules. We then gave leeway for him to continue.

If it looks like a duck and talks like a duck ....yes. We've known that ourselves since early in the game, but NOT pre-game. But no rules have been broken in that regard either.

It's kinda ****ty for you guys. I sympathise.

Oh ok so you allowed me continue but you told the wolves that it wasn’t because I was being mind controlled it was because I was trying something.


To reviterate
I did not rule break / cheat
I asked by pm before I came out
I stopped posting as soon as the mods changed their minds
I posted again after I was told I could

So say it was a good clever or bad stupid play and it’s irrelevant to me ( that’s what I ment Bounty hunter when I said it was irrelevant)

But say that it was a rule break when it clearly wasn’t after you’ve been shown the facts and it’s just insulting.

No one can say I didn’t contribute to the game and personally I feel it’s much more disrecpectful not to contribute but I see those posters get free ride while I have to read about how I’m a loose cannon at best and a cheat at worst.

Necro

I want to move onto something I've been dealing with since we took over COP up until around Friday of last week.

COP is currently (or was) under attack from spambots. Literally hundreds of accounts are being created each week. Players and dead room people alike (and especially the mods) will all have noticed the slow down of the site since the beginning of the game, and beforehand.

Initially to combat the issue I set the site settings for Admin accounts to activate new accounts, but it didn't stop the issue.

Banning IPs and users didn't work.

Finally, as was pointed out to me by sKeith, all of this traffic could end up costing Max - the site owner, money.

So, as a result I have shut off the ability to register new accounts on COP. It's likely this will have to remain that way for the forseeable future.



So with that in mind, I have a request for the boards mods:

Along with the WW Forum Access Request Thread, I wonder if in conjunction there could be a COP Account Access Request Thread.

New users can still be created through the Admin CP, anyone who's modded a game knows the process.

An account can be set up by the mods of the current game, with a generic email and password and PMed here on boards to the person who requested it.

Hopefully that will improve the site speed, and eventually the spambots will leave poor little COP alone again.

duffman13

Drumpot wrote: »

So that’s why I got on so well with Vernon and frank!!!

I like that though. A player who is bad and is familiar with the dynamics of the game takin over effectively a similar role. I didn’t know that but it worked really well..

As far as big complex games goes you can see how that worked out for me.. But I have to admit they are fun...

It was easy for me to sub in as I'd all the same info Frank had available to him, no advantage or disadvantage really. Thought I'd copped but just played it straight and tried not alter the post style.

You were bringing people around but there was too much info available to the village to shot down different aspects of the theories. Feckin information.

Something going forward I'd look at in a game of 24 plus is a double lynch, double munch scenario from Wendesday or Thursday if the expected kill rate doesn't materialise. People can still play the same game and timeframe but double the kill rate with no additional pressure to vote twice etc.

In one way it favours the munch as village needs to be coordinated, might also benefit the village with BG etc in play.

The only other thing I can think of is having 2 day, 2 night phase in a 24 hour period in the bigger games. That's a struggle for a lot of people though

Banjo

In fairness, at game launch even a single NRV can tip the scale enough to make another Wolf or power necessary for balance, depending on how you're modelling your village, so as long as mods consistently sub out the inactive accounts as a first preference across all games, and as long as in an individual game you either sub all inactives or no inactives, I think it would take a little stress out of the decision because there's nothing to interpret there. You'd have to announce in non-Anon, and only use an advertised subs list from the first post, but as long as there's consistency with regards to when it's used and no positive discrimination towards roled players it should be grand.

Won't stop people arguing about the significance of the event, then arguing about the significance of arguing about the significance, then killing each-other, but then that's village life, innit? #19

Edit :
For double lynch / double munch, the problem with that is it makes the lynch less telling if you run 1 vote and the top two lose, and if you run 2 separate lynches it might as well be a speed day in terms of the required level of engagement for Village.
Bullets! Wild Wednesday, where everyone gets a bullet, but it takes multiple shots to kill you so there's a degree of consensus to it.

sullivlo

Necrominus wrote: »

I want to move onto something I've been dealing with since we took over COP up until around Friday of last week.

COP is currently (or was) under attack from spambots. Literally hundreds of accounts are being created each week. Players and dead room people alike (and especially the mods) will all have noticed the slow down of the site since the beginning of the game, and beforehand.

Initially to combat the issue I set the site settings for Admin accounts to activate new accounts, but it didn't stop the issue.

Banning IPs and users didn't work.

Finally, as was pointed out to me by sKeith, all of this traffic could end up costing Max - the site owner, money.

So, as a result I have shut off the ability to register new accounts on COP. It's likely this will have to remain that way for the forseeable future.



So with that in mind, I have a request for the boards mods:

Along with the WW Forum Access Request Thread, I wonder if in conjunction there could be a COP Account Access Request Thread.

New users can still be created through the Admin CP, anyone who's modded a game knows the process.

An account can be set up by the mods of the current game, with a generic email and password and PMed here on boards to the person who requested it.

Hopefully that will improve the site speed, and eventually the spambots will leave poor little COP alone again.

Thanks Necro for your work on this. Myself and Pedro are working through the list of posts that mention COP and breaking the link; hopefully this will help in some way.

But absolutely no issue whatsoever about having a COP request thread alongside the WW request forum. We will need to be vigilant about posting links to COP also. If anyone sees an active link on the site, can you let a mod know and we can edit accordingly.

Baggly

Necrominus wrote: »

I want to move onto something I've been dealing with since we took over COP up until around Friday of last week.

COP is currently (or was) under attack from spambots. Literally hundreds of accounts are being created each week. Players and dead room people alike (and especially the mods) will all have noticed the slow down of the site since the beginning of the game, and beforehand.

Initially to combat the issue I set the site settings for Admin accounts to activate new accounts, but it didn't stop the issue.

Banning IPs and users didn't work.

Finally, as was pointed out to me by sKeith, all of this traffic could end up costing Max - the site owner, money.

So, as a result I have shut off the ability to register new accounts on COP. It's likely this will have to remain that way for the forseeable future.



So with that in mind, I have a request for the boards mods:

Along with the WW Forum Access Request Thread, I wonder if in conjunction there could be a COP Account Access Request Thread.

New users can still be created through the Admin CP, anyone who's modded a game knows the process.

An account can be set up by the mods of the current game, with a generic email and password and PMed here on boards to the person who requested it.

Hopefully that will improve the site speed, and eventually the spambots will leave poor little COP alone again.

This is grand but obviously open for discussion. Digi provided Sully and I with a comprehensive list of all the COP links in the forum and we will be working through them to remove direct link.

If we do go ahead with the above suggestion of a COP access request thread, its important to note it wont be 'owned/operated' by the forum mods like the WW forum access thread.

Whomever is the current game admin needs to own making and distributing the accounts.

EDIT: DAMMIT SULLY SNAP

Drumpot

@Jack

You said you wanted to cause chaos by your actions. I was saying that part of your plan worked cause I caused chaos very much because of your confusing play.. I wasn’t debating the merits of your strategy just that your chaos bit sort of worked....

Edit: The chaos strategy was fair and perfectly sound.. I’m agreeing with this part of your strategy ....

Necro

Banjo wrote: »

In fairness, at game launch even a single NRV can tip the scale enough to make another Wolf or power necessary for balance, depending on how you're modelling your village, so as long as mods consistently sub out the inactive accounts as a first preference across all games, and as long as in an individual game you either sub all inactives or no inactives, I think it would take a little stress out of the decision because there's nothing to interpret there. You'd have to announce in non-Anon, and only use an advertised subs list from the first post, but as long as there's consistency with regards to when it's used and no positive discrimination towards roled players it should be grand.

Won't stop people arguing about the significance of the event, then arguing about the significance of arguing about the significance, then killing each-other, but then that's village life, innit? #19

Regarding subbing mid-game, I see two ways to approach the issue in future:

Delaying access to the Dead Room for a couple of days for dead players, in order to slot them in for a low poster or a mid-game drop out, in the case of anon games. Unless the dead players are wolves, or a seer/priest with extra info, most players are able to get a second bite of the cherry.

Non-spoiler deadrooms would also help a little in this regard (but that's a whole different argument tbh).


Secondly is to have a subs bench, although with sub benches the rules have to be followed to the absolute letter of the law imo so low posting (if there's a rule in place), or other rule breaches would have to be strictly adhered to.


I want to stress that no game mod EVER wants to modkill a player under any circumstances, and when the decisions are made to do so, they are not done so lightly.

MAYBE we should have been stricter and modkilled Frank, Clodagh, Isla, Liam... others who did not vote or voted incorrectly, or indeed broke rules by discussing mod decisions on thread, deleting posts, editing in their backrooms despite it implicitly being stated in the OP not to do so - but we decided warnings for first offences were the fairest way to go, and I stand by that decision. To use so many modkills would have deeply unbalanced the game.

I stand by the decisions we as a team made throughout the game though.

Drumpot

duffman13 wrote: »

It was easy for me to sub in as I'd all the same info Frank had available to him, no advantage or disadvantage really. Thought I'd copped but just played it straight and tried not alter the post style.

You were bringing people around but there was too much info available to the village to shot down different aspects of the theories. Feckin information.

Something going forward I'd look at in a game of 24 plus is a double lynch, double munch scenario from Wendesday or Thursday if the expected kill rate doesn't materialise. People can still play the same game and timeframe but double the kill rate with no additional pressure to vote twice etc.

In one way it favours the munch as village needs to be coordinated, might also benefit the village with BG etc in play.

The only other thing I can think of is having 2 day, 2 night phase in a 24 hour period in the bigger games. That's a struggle for a lot of people though

I think the double munch and double lycnh is a brilliant Idea. It means people don’t have to spend any more time working out different strategies in between 4 seperatley planned kill events in one day.

Baggly

Jack Moore wrote: »

I wasn’t looking for thanks anymore than any other player is from the people not in his team I was looking to knock every other player out.

The post by Quickbeam in the wolves room confirming that I was bluffingvrater than being nine controlled ment I hadntva hope, I have no idea why she would post that after the mods had stated that what I was doing was legit.


Fine fine my reaction is in my room something along the lines of “your the boss Necro I don’t ageee but I’ll do whatever you say “



Oh ok so you allowed me continue but you told the wolves that it wasn’t because I was being mind controlled it was because I was trying something.


To reviterate
I did not rule break / cheat
I asked by pm before I came out
I stopped posting as soon as the mods changed their minds
I posted again after I was told I could

So say it was a good clever or bad stupid play and it’s irrelevant to me ( that’s what I ment Bounty hunter when I said it was irrelevant)

But say that it was a rule break when it clearly wasn’t after you’ve been shown the facts and it’s just insulting.

No one can say I didn’t contribute to the game and personally I feel it’s much more disrecpectful not to contribute but I see those posters get free ride while I have to read about how I’m a loose cannon at best and a cheat at worst.

I dont read QBs post as confirmation you were bluffing but i understand how you read it that way.

Agree dont think you did rule break. I think we have established that here. Dont think anyone is calling you a cheat now we have all talked it through.

Why did you ask via pm and not using your backroom? Just curious.

Dont disagree, you did follow mod commands. Also thank you for clarification on 'thats irrelevant'.

Drumpot

Necrominus wrote: »

Regarding subbing mid-game, I see two ways to approach the issue in future:

Delaying access to the Dead Room for a couple of days for dead players, in order to slot them in for a low poster or a mid-game drop out, in the case of anon games. Unless the dead players are wolves, or a seer/priest with extra info, most players are able to get a second bite of the cherry.

Non-spoiler deadrooms would also help a little in this regard (but that's a whole different argument tbh).


Secondly is to have a subs bench, although with sub benches the rules have to be followed to the absolute letter of the law imo so low posting (if there's a rule in place), or other rule breaches would have to be strictly adhered to.


I want to stress that no game mod EVER wants to modkill a player under any circumstances, and when the decisions are made to do so, they are not done so lightly.

MAYBE we should have been stricter and modkilled Frank, Clodagh, Isla, Liam... others who did not vote or voted incorrectly, or indeed broke rules by discussing mod decisions on thread, deleting posts, editing in their backrooms despite it implicitly being stated in the OP not to do so - but we decided warnings for first offences were the fairest way to go, and I stand by that decision. To use so many modkills would have deeply unbalanced the game.

I stand by the decisions we as a team made throughout the game though.

Yeh I think mod flexibility on discipline is important. There are different reasons why people may miss votes or make ill advised comments on thread. If there is a zero tolerance applied I don’t think I would last too many games.

Perhaps have an auto self vote for those who don’t vote? It means that even if they don’t vote everybody knows and at least they may end up lynching themselves? And for every vote they miss thereafter their vote for themselves doubles? Is that too harsh?

Necro

Jack Moore wrote: »

I wasn’t looking for thanks anymore than any other player is from the people not in his team I was looking to knock every other player out.

The post by Quickbeam in the wolves room confirming that I was bluffingvrater than being nine controlled ment I hadntva hope, I have no idea why she would post that after the mods had stated that what I was doing was legit.


Fine fine my reaction is in my room something along the lines of “your the boss Necro I don’t ageee but I’ll do whatever you say “



Oh ok so you allowed me continue but you told the wolves that it wasn’t because I was being mind controlled it was because I was trying something.


To reviterate
I did not rule break / cheat
I asked by pm before I came out
I stopped posting as soon as the mods changed their minds
I posted again after I was told I could

So say it was a good clever or bad stupid play and it’s irrelevant to me ( that’s what I ment Bounty hunter when I said it was irrelevant)

But say that it was a rule break when it clearly wasn’t after you’ve been shown the facts and it’s just insulting.

No one can say I didn’t contribute to the game and personally I feel it’s much more disrecpectful not to contribute but I see those posters get free ride while I have to read about how I’m a loose cannon at best and a cheat at worst.

Loose Cannon - Probably :pac:

Cheat? Nope, no way. I don't think personally that's a fair argument to level at you at all, you did what you felt was the best course of action for your team at the time.

Whether it's a good play or bad play, or anything else is, as you said irrelevant.

Ultimately though it's not a rule breach, in my eyes anyways.

I think the issue was when we discussed this via PM I made the mistake - and that is on me - of not asking for details of your play before you made it.

Hence the mods getting involved to stop it mid-flow as we were unsure of the best course of action to proceed with.

So, in that regard, I probably owe yourself and others an apology, there were ten things going on through my mind at the time and I overlooked that one step.

Banjo

Pter wrote: »

I dont read QBs post as confirmation you were bluffing but i understand how you read it that way.

If Eva were mind controlled there would have been no discussion about whether the action was in the best interest of his team. There would have just been an Ascii Shrug.

On voting : Case sensitivity is a bad idea. Voting on mobile, it automatically capitalises your password in Google forms.

Baggly

Banjo wrote: »

If Eva were mind controlled there would have been no discussion about whether the action was in the best interest of his team. There would have just been an Ascii Shrug.

On voting : Case sensitivity is a bad idea. Voting on mobile, it automatically capitalises your password in Google forms.

I need to reread that wolf thread in fairness to Jack.

Baggly

Yeah thats a bit messy alright. No offense mods but i think you got it right the first time in saying that you wouldnt share interactions with other players. Not to worry live and learn.