Does the shambles around transport for the Pope’s visit show incompetence of the NTA.

AlanG

In my view the incompetence of the NTA, or whoever panned transport for the Pope’s mass kept a lot of people away - of 11 people who asked me to get them tickets online and genuinely wanted to go, only 1 went once their transport arrangements came through.
The transport hubs were unnecessarily way too far from the mass site and showed a lack of user focus from the planners. It all seemed to be about having a plan in place to meet metrics rather than providing a service to the users who needed it. There was no reason not to run shuttle busses into to the park and lots of coach parking could have been provided in the park and on Cunningham road – these would have served the users properly but instead a walk was required that ruled out attendance by most older and very young people – the very people who attend mass regularly.
People living in belville, 10 meters from Ashtown gate were been told to walk through the dunard gate - a 5km detour. Those who wanted to cycle were told to park their bikes in Blanchardstown village - 5.5 KM from the site and further out than the already ridiculous bus hubs. Meanwhile hundreds of acres that were used for Ed Sheerhan and could have been utilised as a bike / coach park in the Park itself were simply closed off. The whole orgaisation of the mass transport was a shambles and reflects very poorly on whoever was in charge.
I am sure the metrics for number of busses and the speed of bus journeys from Dublin will look very well but the NTA certainly did not provide a public service and this make me worry about the likes of Bus Connect – will there be any user focus to the service or will it be about computer models and metrics.
Even the fact that transport plans were not released until after people applied for tickets was a mess – Asking people what route they would like to take rather than where they would start their journey from would have shown a user first focus rather than a provided first approach. This is a simple concept of customer service.

optogirl

I guess they really thought the streets would be thronged with mass-goers.

site_owner

82300 people will go to an all ireland final
60000 showed up for obama.
120000 attend bloom

these events need a bit of planning, but they dont have to shut the city down

they could have had a much better organized event if they were realistic about numbers.
500k were never going to mass.

Franz Von Peppercorn

site_owner wrote: »

82300 people will go to an all ireland final
60000 showed up for obama.
120000 attend bloom

these events need a bit of planning, but they dont have to shut the city down

they could have had a much better organized event if they were realistic about numbers.
500k were never going to mass.

Nobody knew that until yesterday.

green123

AlanG wrote: »

In my view the incompetence of the NTA, or whoever panned transport for the Pope’s mass kept a lot of people away .

Maybe that's part of the reason and the weather part of the reason.

But the biggest reason people stayed away is because they are just not interested anymore.

Best transport and planing wouldn't have made a significant difference at all

Xterminator

NTA were asked to plan for 1/2 a million. 25% of the expected number turned up. doesn't make the planning incompetent. OP i think you have an axe to grind here, and are looking to confirm your existing opinion by selectively taking some facts and ignoring others.

That aside you are correct in saying there are lessons that can be learned. However it might be a while before we have the next pope over.

Victor

Blame the event organisers, not the people doing what they were told to do. Free tickets was never a good idea for estimating numbers - it meant people booked tickets but were uncommitted to going.

goingnowhere

The NTA were told to plan for 500,000. By all accounts the transport was executed well yesterday, lots of staff. Had 500,000 turned out it is doubtful the transport plan could have coped, and long delays would be likely

Irish Rail managed only a single delay and that was due to someone pulling the emergency handle and jumping out of a train

The really stupid decision was to shut the Luas down in the city centre.

If I was a manager in DB/IE I'd be rather happy this morning as they dodged a huge bullet on the revenue as the NTA paid for the service operated not passengers carried

AlanG

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Nobody knew that until yesterday.

Anybody who listened to people knew that - if there was any customer focus they would have known - it's simply a matter of matching the profile of mass goers to the ability to walk 10KM in a day. Joe Duffy spoke to enough people about the problems so if the NTA didn't know it shows they have no user focus.

They provided no facility to transfer or cancel tickets or indeed change allocated travel routes. The cycling plans were not released until about 2 days before the event.

Even if 500,000 turned up it would have been possible to maintain a shuttle bus along the main road of the park with a little planing.

AlanG

Victor wrote: »

Blame the event organisers, not the people doing what they were told to do. Free tickets was never a good idea for estimating numbers - it meant people booked tickets but were uncommitted to going.

People booked tickets expecting to be able to travel to an event and were then told they would have to walk 10km after booking.

AlanG

Xterminator wrote: »

NTA were asked to plan for 1/2 a million. 25% of the expected number turned up. doesn't make the planning incompetent. OP i think you have an axe to grind here, and are looking to confirm your existing opinion by selectively taking some facts and ignoring others.

It's pretty ill informed to say I have an axe to grind - I think my point is very valid, If you can defend things like the location of the bike parks or the routing of Ashtown residents through Dunard then please do. Otherwise please point out why you think I have an Axe to grind.

The NTA were asked to plan to get 500,000 people to the popes cross but instead they planned to get those people to the outskirts of the city and laid on no facilities for people cycling or with mildly limited mobility - by the time the massive walking routes were announced all the wheelchair access tickets were allocated.

For a country that thought it could host a Rugby world cup to be unable to organise transport other than walking for an event like this in a way that provides for the service users is pretty poor. Older people who wanted to attend the mass should have been provided with an option to do so that didn't include an 8KM - 10KM walk.

I worked for the NTA in Australia during the Sydney Olympics and Paralympics and they actually thought about the people who were likely to use the service and the mobility challenges they would face.

cgcsb

I live close to the park. It was very well organized lots of information, lots of people on the ground. If anything it was overkill, the amount of streets closed just wasn't justified but that's due to the super low turn out.

In future free events of that size should be banned. If you want to have an event for half a million people you should charge a tenner a ticket. That way you get realistic attendance numbers before the event.

bk

I'm of the opinion that the NTA, DB, Irish Rail and all the other transport companies (e.g. lots of coaches) did a great job yesterday.

Remember 1.2 million people turned up to the park in '79 and while everyone knows that the Catholic Church has much less attendance today, I think everyone was truly taken by surprise by how few turned up. Not much more then a GAA match.

500k tickets were "sold" and while I suspect they thought less then that might turn up, I supect they assumed at least 400k would turn up and they planned accordingly.

I will say that there are serious issues with public transport access to the Phoenix Park. I was at the Ed Sheeran concert a few months ago and public transport was a disaster. No transport in the park, a very long walk to get out of the park and then no more public transport after 11:30, it all was a massive pain.

And throughout the year the park is very inaccessible to people with cars. There really should be a regular DB bus route or Luas running through the park.

I get the impression that the OPW who run the park aren't very welcoming to making it more accessible.

They certainly need to do better for future events and concerts, but also regular year round access. The park looked great on TV and it is a great resource to the city, but far too difficult to get to and use.

Victor

bk wrote: »

And throughout the year the park is very inaccessible to people with cars.

Do you mean people without cars?

roadmaster

bk wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that the NTA, DB, Irish Rail and all the other transport companies (e.g. lots of coaches) did a great job yesterday.

Remember 1.2 million people turned up to the park in '79 and while everyone knows that the Catholic Church has much less attendance today, I think everyone was truly taken by surprise by how few turned up. Not much more then a GAA match.

500k tickets were "sold" and while I suspect they thought less then that might turn up, I supect they assumed at least 400k would turn up and they planned accordingly.

I will say that there are serious issues with public transport access to the Phoenix Park. I was at the Ed Sheeran concert a few months ago and public transport was a disaster. No transport in the park, a very long walk to get out of the park and then no more public transport after 11:30, it all was a massive pain.

And throughout the year the park is very inaccessible to people with cars. There really should be a regular DB bus route or Luas running through the park.

I get the impression that the OPW who run the park aren't very welcoming to making it more accessible.

They certainly need to do better for future events and concerts, but also regular year round access. The park looked great on TV and it is a great resource to the city, but far too difficult to get to and use.

There where several factors for the crowd not showing up but i know several people that canceled going when they where told they would park in fairy house and then get a shuttle in which is no problem. The problem arose when people with Young children and the elderly where told they would have to walk several kilometers when droped of from the shuttle bus. Personally i didn't go because there was a good day of Games on TG4 yesterday

Dravokivich

site_owner wrote: »

82300 people will go to an all ireland final

Croke Park is well served by Public transport and has very established routes for walking in from town.

site_owner wrote: »

60000 showed up for obama.

So a little more than a full aviva... what's the significance?

site_owner wrote: »

120000 attend bloom

That's over a few days right? 3 or 4 days, means it ranges from 30-40 thousand.

site_owner wrote: »

these events need a bit of planning, but they dont have to shut the city down

they could have had a much better organized event if they were realistic about numbers.
500k were never going to mass.

In fairness, when the lower numbers were acknowledged, there should have been a decision made to re-open a significant part of the city, while retaining closures on the main routes to get out of the phoenix park. But this is all with hindsight.

Would you blame me for getting the lotto numbers wrong as well?

bk

Victor wrote: »

Do you mean people without cars?

Sorry, typo, yes I mean it has poor accessibility to people without cars.

bk

roadmaster wrote: »

There where several factors for the crowd not showing up but i know several people that canceled going when they where told they would park in fairy house and then get a shuttle in which is no problem. The problem arose when people with Young children and the elderly where told they would have to walk several kilometers when droped of from the shuttle bus. Personally i didn't go because there was a good day of Games on TG4 yesterday

Sure, but then had 500k people actually turned up, those restrictions would have been necessary. You wouldn't have been able to shuttle in 500k people.

I'd lay the blame (if any) at the organisers. Had they been more realistic, say issued just 200k tickets and charged for them (€10 or €20), then the NTA, etc. would have planned accordingly for a 200k people event and could have had less restrictions and more buses closer into the park.

The organisers told the NTA that the event was designed for 500k people and 500k tickets were "sold" so the NTA planned for a 500k event.

Seemingly only 130k turned up, had the event been limited to just 150k or 200k then I'm certain the transport plans would be significantly different and maybe have been more accessible for people.

BTW as we are talking about events. GAA matches and concerts in Croke Park, while it generally works well for those attending them, they are typically a nightmare for locals of Drumcondra and beyond (Swords).

Nothing worse then innocently getting a bus home on a Sunday and then hitting Drumcondra to see tens of thousands of people pour onto the streets blocking the bus lanes. It can turn a normal 15 minute bus journey into a 1 hour journey and all because you forgot their was a big match/concert on.

I wish the NTA or GAA could have some app that would notify you of such major events. At least you could leave before the match ends. Not everyone follows upcoming matches closely. And perhaps the Gardai could do more to keep people out of the bus lanes. Sorry about the rant.

Skibunny77

It was ridiculous! For the Croke Park event, buses were sent to park in the docklands which for older people made for a complicated journey to Croke Park. Completely unnecessary. They directed buses of people to the south side of the city, knowing transport links were down for stages of the afternoon.

there was too much disruption to the general public for this private event.

that's my only criticism of the organisation from the NTA point

if ten or fifty of a thousand or 130k people want to go somewhere they can go there and let them away with it.

if an organisation claims that its going to have 500k people at a private event they should be charged and charged in advance for the plans that need to be made.

maybe then we'd have had accurate forecasts and the general public wouldnt have had to put up with such inconvenience for two days for the sake of such a small minority

Browneshill

Skibunny77 wrote: »

It was ridiculous! For the Croke Park event, buses were sent to park in the docklands which for older people made for a complicated journey to Croke Park. Completely unnecessary. They directed buses of people to the south side of the city, knowing transport links were down for stages of the afternoon.

Very true, I went with Kavanagh's bus which parked at Harris Hino just past the Red Cow, and we were all told that there were shuttle buses to the Phoenix Park from there. There were quite a few elderly people on the bus who had been told the same thing, and only went on that basis - they reckoned they could do the distance in the Park itself, as long as they could be brought that far. The Orange route in was to Chapelizod Gate; many on the bus had tickets to other gates. Long story short, we walked all the way to Chapelizod and then on to the Islandbridge gate to go into our section. I spoke to 2 separate Gardai on the way who said clearly "there is no bus", plus a guy from the Corpo who told me that people from the country had been "dumped at the Red Cow". The route had been set up for walking, full stop. It took nearly 2 hours to get to our place in the Park. On the way back, we went out the way we came in but refused the 2 hour hike back and made our own way. One of the younger girls who walked the same route as us was using a walking app, it came to 16 km by the time we got back to the Harris bus park.

There's a lot of the usual corporate waffle about Health and Safety in designing these routes, but what about the Health and Safety of eldery or unwell people who paid for the bus and were forced to walk at least 16 km in total because someone lied to them about shuttle buses being available? I can only presume Kavanaghs advised everyone who called them, and then handed out Orange wristbands for shuttle buses, because someone from WMOF/NTA told them there would be transport available?

Muahahaha

Not seeing how the NTA can be blamed for the organisers giving them the wrong numbers. They were told by the organisers that it was 500,000 and thats what they planned for. NTA did their job right, the organisers wasted millions in taxpayers money paying bus drivers and gardai who were not even needed on the day.

manonboard

I was heading into town to meet some friend.
Kicked off the luas at the black horse and told to walk the rest of the way.
55 Minutes to get to smithfield.

It was very very clear that the people on the luas did not know this was going to be the case. That is a huge distance for people to walk. families. old people. young kids.

Shutting down the luas made no sense to me. So much of it runs on its own tracks that do not overlap with road ways. James stop would of made so much more sense. It runs along the canal which barely touches a road and could of been easily managed.

BarryD2

AlanG wrote: »

People booked tickets expecting to be able to travel to an event and were then told they would have to walk 10km after booking.

Did people not walk distances like that in 1979? Doubtless the demographic of mass goers has changed and there'd be a higher proportion of more elderly now. But it's also the case that people in general have become lazier. That's not say in this case that anyone who made the effort yesterday is lazy - clearly they were not.

lawred2

Xterminator wrote: »

NTA were asked to plan for 1/2 a million. 25% of the expected number turned up. doesn't make the planning incompetent. OP i think you have an axe to grind here, and are looking to confirm your existing opinion by selectively taking some facts and ignoring others.

That aside you are correct in saying there are lessons that can be learned. However it might be a while before we have the next pope over.

well the lesson to be learned is to treat it like every other large event...

ED E

Gardai: Bikes are banned - too many pedestrians
Also Gardai: Taxis are allowed in


:rolleyes:

Browneshill

manonboard wrote: »

I was heading into town to meet some friend.
Kicked off the luas at the black horse and told to walk the rest of the way.
55 Minutes to get to smithfield.

It was very very clear that the people on the luas did not know this was going to be the case. That is a huge distance for people to walk. families. old people. young kids.

Shutting down the luas made no sense to me. So much of it runs on its own tracks that do not overlap with road ways. James stop would of made so much more sense. It runs along the canal which barely touches a road and could of been easily managed.

That's it, dump people miles away from the Park, tell everyone to use public transport and then shut it down. Tell some people there are shuttle buses that don't exist. No transport into the park, no transport around it to help people get to the required gate - and then complain when they are leaving that they won't go out the correct gate. Someone said to me yesterday that they had to keep the roads clear because there were so many people walking on the routes in - if you had the transport in the first place people wouldn't have been walking, and you might have got the number of people planned to go because they could get access and the weather would have been less of an issue.

Dravokivich

manonboard wrote: »

I was heading into town to meet some friend.
Kicked off the luas at the black horse and told to walk the rest of the way.
55 Minutes to get to smithfield.

It was very very clear that the people on the luas did not know this was going to be the case. That is a huge distance for people to walk. families. old people. young kids.

Shutting down the luas made no sense to me. So much of it runs on its own tracks that do not overlap with road ways. James stop would of made so much more sense. It runs along the canal which barely touches a road and could of been easily managed.

There's nowhere to turn a Luas around between Blackhorse Ave and Smithfield. Luas had it pretty clear on their website and are usually good with informing their passengers, so surprised to hear of people being left in the lurch. I wonder if someone else told them to hold back on active comuniciations, because another group wanted to be in "control" of it.

BarryD2 wrote: »

Did people not walk distances like that in 1979? Doubtless the demographic of mass goers has changed and there'd be a higher proportion of more elderly now. But it's also the case that people in general have become lazier. That's not say in this case that anyone who made the effort yesterday is lazy - clearly they were not.

I'm not sure what happened in '79, but someone here in the office, who was a kid at the time, mentioned being dragged out to it and walking quite a lot. There could have been people put off by that.

It'd be interesting if we were to know how many travelled up, but conceded once they noticed they were left without the shuttles. It's quite a trek to be left off at the Naas Rd.

bk

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'm not sure what happened in '79, but someone here in the office, who was a kid at the time, mentioned being dragged out to it and walking quite a lot. There could have been people put off by that.

My mother was just telling me last night that my Gandmother went in 79 and had to trek through muddy fields and climb over ditches to get there!!

In '79 it really was a case of walking very long distances, getting there anyway possible and then spending hours upon hours getting home afters.

So certainly it was much worse in '79 I'd say.

However a valid complaint is that we now have a much better transport network in Dublin today, then in 79, Luas, DART, Motorways and far more buses and coaches and given the far less people who went, then it should have been able to get people much closer to the event.

For me though the real story here is how far the Catholic church has fallen and how few people it turns out were interested in going to see the pope!

Many people in transport circles remember or have often heard the stories of the insane numbers that turned up in 79 and perhaps panicked and developed a plan expecting big numbers.

In the end feck all turned up and while some might have expected less then 79, I don't think anyone expected 1/10'th of 79! It really shows how little interest in the church there is these days.

I don't think we will ever see another event like this. The pope won't be back for a very long time and numbers are likely to be even less.

I'd rather see the NTA, Gardai, etc. develop better plans to handle the regular big matches and concerts at Croke Park, Landsdown Road and Phoenix Park. Because while not as big, they happen multiple times every year and effect the people of Dublin regularly, rather then a once in a lifetime event.

mloc123

BarryD2 wrote: »

Did people not walk distances like that in 1979? Doubtless the demographic of mass goers has changed and there'd be a higher proportion of more elderly now. But it's also the case that people in general have become lazier. That's not say in this case that anyone who made the effort yesterday is lazy - clearly they were not.

My grandparents had right walk from Lucan in 1979 having travelled from the midlands. They would have been in their early 60s.

Having to walk up to 5k doesn't seem that much in comparison.

SPDUB

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'm not sure what happened in '79, but someone here in the office, who was a kid at the time, mentioned being dragged out to it and walking quite a lot. There could have been people put off by that.

It'd be interesting if we were to know how many travelled up, but conceded once they noticed they were left without the shuttles. It's quite a trek to be left off at the Naas Rd.

IIRC in 1979 coming out of the Islandbridge gate it was as far as the canal before the crowd thinned out enough to be able to drive along the roads there and Rialto before the crowds thinned on the South Circular Road

But it's also the case that people in general have become lazier. That's not say in this case that anyone who made the effort yesterday is lazy - clearly they were not.

I don't think it's really lazier , it's just that people were still used to walking long distances , and because of that more fitter , because a lot of people didn't have a car

My family got their first car in 1978 and were one of about 10 people on our road of about 35 houses who had one .