Workplace charging experience

McGiver

Hi folks,

Buying an EV very soon and excited.

Would anyone be able to share experience with arranging charging in their workplace/office? Both in terms of technicalities, economics and also legalities as well negotiating tactics with the employeer.

Would be interested to hear your advice and your stories.

I'm thinking about it but not really how to tackle it.

Cheers.

Zenith74

First thing is do you actually need to charge at work, or is it close enough to home that you could charge over night and get to/from work on a single charge? Sorry know that is an obvious question, but with the ranges of EVs increasing and increasing hopefully there won't be as much of a need for destination charging, and the potentially awkward conversations with employers

biko

Difficult to say.
Are you the only person in the company with an EV?
Is it possible to use a regular outlet to charge from or do you need any thing special = expensive?

Also

The Revenue Commissioners have confirmed that charging electric cars at work leaves owners liable to benefit-in-kind tax.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/charging-electric-cars-at-work-brings-benefit-in-kind-tax-liability-1.3155508

Orebro

biko wrote: »

Difficult to say.
Are you the only person in the company with an EV?
Is it possible to use a regular outlet to charge from or do you need any thing special = expensive?

Also


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/charging-electric-cars-at-work-brings-benefit-in-kind-tax-liability-1.3155508

That's old news - it has since been confirmed there is no BIK implications for employers to supply free charging.

biko

Good, please provide a source OP can present for their employer.

Orebro

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/news-and-media/press-releases/Pages/Ministers-Naughten-and-Ross-reaffirm-commitment-to-Electric-Vehicle-transition.aspx

"The BIK rules will ensure that there is no BIK liability associated with recharging EVs in workplaces."

McGiver

Zenith74 wrote:

First thing is do you actually need to charge at work, or is it close enough to home that you could charge over night and get to/from work on a single charge? Sorry know that is an obvious question, but with the ranges of EVs increasing and increasing hopefully there won't be as much of a need for destination charging, and the potentially awkward conversations with employers

It's actually very close, at the moment. But may change. It's not a necessity at all but rather a convenience i.e. "nice to have" you know what I mean.
Also, my thinking is that by charging at work I could advertise EVs to the whole company much better.

unkel

McGiver wrote: »

It's actually very close, at the moment. But may change. It's not a necessity at all but rather a convenience i.e. "nice to have" you know what I mean.

In that case I wouldn't bother. The financial savings are minimal (a few hundred quid per year) and their might be a path of resistance

You'd be better off negotiating a small salary increase

biko

Show it off to upper management, maybe they will think it could be good for the company profile.

Calahonda52

biko wrote: »

Show it off to upper management, maybe they will think it could be good for the company profile.

...or that he over paid driving an EV

McGiver

Calahonda52 wrote: »

...or that he over paid driving an EV

Ha! Yes, that's possible but quite a few people with Beemers, Audis and big SUVs around. True, they do not talk about it to the boss...

tedpan

Charging is a nightmare at my office.

We have 2 regular slow chargers. There are at least 15 EVs and 10 Phevs. Every morning it's a race to get one of the spots. I live 65kms away and drive a Leaf 1.5 and need a charge to make it home. Most of my colleagues are decent enough to move once they have enough charge to get home.

Funnily enough it's the people that live locally or the Phev drivers who leave their car plugged in all day hogging the space.

There's probably 2 or 3 arguments a week. I mainly use the local public FCP, there are definitely wait times, bit it's far less hassle. We need more chargers!!

fricatus

tedpan wrote: »

Charging is a nightmare at my office.

We have 2 regular slow chargers. There are at least 15 EVs and 10 Phevs. Every morning it's a race to get one of the spots. I live 65kms away and drive a Leaf 1.5 and need a charge to make it home. Most of my colleagues are decent enough to move once they have enough charge to get home.

Funnily enough it's the people that live locally or the Phev drivers who leave their car plugged in all day hogging the space.

There's probably 2 or 3 arguments a week. I mainly use the local public FCP, there are definitely wait times, bit it's far less hassle. We need more chargers!!

Can it be that hard for all of you to sit down and coordinate? I don't know what kind of work you do, but if it's desk-based, do you use some sort of group chat? Could you even all agree to join a WhatsApp group?

I would say most people don't want to hog the chargers, and surely they'd be happy to vacate once finished. Maybe the underlying problem is finding a regular space to move their car to when done? If so, you just swap with another EV driver, problem solved.

tedpan

fricatus wrote:

Can it be that hard for all of you to sit down and coordinate? I don't know what kind of work you do, but if it's desk-based, do you use some sort of group chat? Could you even all agree to join a WhatsApp group?

That's what you'd think.. There is a WhatsApp group although some don't want to join.

fricatus wrote:

I would say most people don't want to hog the chargers, and surely they'd be happy to vacate once finished. Maybe the underlying problem is finding a regular space to move their car to when done? If so, you just swap with another EV driver, problem solved.

There are plenty of spaces in the car park at all times. The regular hoggers make excuses like they're in meetings or busy and will move it later, others want to charge to 100% even when they have 40kwh batteries, which basically means the whole day..

McGiver

tedpan wrote: »

That's what you'd think.. There is a WhatsApp group although some don't want to join.



There are plenty of spaces in the car park at all times. The regular hoggers make excuses like they're in meetings or busy and will move it later, others want to charge to 100% even when they have 40kwh batteries, which basically means the whole day..

If I can recommend - use Microsoft Teams. It's a new MS take on Slack. Very good product. You can create a private group for your EV folks, the chat is persistent unlike in Skype Group chat, also you can do scheduling etc it fully integrates with Outlook. If your company uses Office 365 you can switch to this straight away, it's part of the package. And there is a mobile app as well. Very few arguments for not joining.

Orebro

tedpan wrote: »

Charging is a nightmare at my office.

We have 2 regular slow chargers. There are at least 15 EVs and 10 Phevs. Every morning it's a race to get one of the spots. I live 65kms away and drive a Leaf 1.5 and need a charge to make it home. Most of my colleagues are decent enough to move once they have enough charge to get home.

Funnily enough it's the people that live locally or the Phev drivers who leave their car plugged in all day hogging the space.

There's probably 2 or 3 arguments a week. I mainly use the local public FCP, there are definitely wait times, bit it's far less hassle. We need more chargers!!

Now that sounds stressful. After cutting my teeth with BEV for the last 18 months I can absolutely say that if I was dependent on work or public charging to get home then I'd be after going back to ICE long ago. We have work charging but I don't bother with it as it's as busy as your workplace - I'm lucky that I can make the round trip comfortably.

The biggest issue in our place was the same - there were the few that refused point blank to join a WhatsApp group or the like, and that fecks it up for everyone else. I also suggested at one stage that people should register to use the charges and part of this would be having to join a group. No go from management so you're on a hiding to nothing if they don't back you.

denismc

Interesting!, I work for a company in Cork with over 200 cars in the car park.
I have yet to see a single car use the chargepoint even though it was installed over 5 years ago.

Orebro

denismc wrote: »

Interesting!, I work for a company in Cork with over 200 cars in the car park.
I have yet to see a single car use the chargepoint even though it was installed over 5 years ago.

It's funny really - I was the only one in our place but as soon as people spoke to me about the savings and the benefits of work charging a load of them started appearing! It takes one or two to start people getting curious about them

McGiver

Orebro wrote:

It's funny really - I was the only one in our place but as soon as people spoke to me about the savings and the benefits of work charging a load of them started appearing! It takes one or two to start people getting curious about them

That's exactly what I want to do and why started this thread. The si called "community effect"...

denismc

McGiver wrote: »

That's exactly what I want to do and why started this thread. The si called "community effect"...

Nah, I would be the opposite, if half the people where I work thought there was something to be had for free they would be all over it like flies on ****

NIMAN

denismc wrote: »

Interesting!, I work for a company in Cork with over 200 cars in the car park.
I have yet to see a single car use the chargepoint even though it was installed over 5 years ago.

We are the opposite.

We now have approx 5 or 6 EVs in the car park, with no chargers!
Talk about installations going back about 2 or 3 years, but none have appeared so far.

McGiver

Is there any grant for employers?

What incentives employers have to even bother installing a charger?

NIMAN

McGiver wrote: »

Is there any grant for employers?

What incentives employers have to even bother installing a charger?

To be seen to be an eco-friendly, modern company? My company often lists their green credentials, yet still no chargers.

I have no doubt most employers would get a decent grant to install chargers.

denismc

McGiver wrote: »

Is there any grant for employers?

What incentives employers have to even bother installing a charger?

Chargers aren't that expensive, I can't see why most medium or large sized companies can't have at least one installed.

gunnerfitzy

denismc wrote: »

Interesting!, I work for a company in Cork with over 200 cars in the car park.
I have yet to see a single car use the chargepoint even though it was installed over 5 years ago.

Are any of the employees from Cork? I would be very disappointed in my county brethren if they were to dismiss free fuel so readily.

bp_me

NIMAN wrote: »

I have no doubt most employers would get a decent grant to install chargers.

At the very least there is an accelerated capital write off allowance for them to make use of.

waynegalway

bp_me wrote: »

At the very least there is an accelerated capital write off allowance for them to make use of.

How does that work, and is it something that would help persuade an employer to install a charger?

bp_me

waynegalway wrote: »

How does that work, and is it something that would help persuade an employer to install a charger?

https://www.seai.ie/energy-in-business/accelerated-capital-allowance/

KCross

waynegalway wrote: »

How does that work, and is it something that would help persuade an employer to install a charger?

It allows you to write down all the depreciation in year 1 rather than over 8 yrs. So it improves cash flow for the employer as they will then pay less tax that year.

However, some people misinterpret ACA as "getting the whole thing written off against tax and thus free". Thats not the case.

As I understand it, and someone can correct me if Im wrong....

Lets say you buy something under ACA for €10k.
Lets say you make €100k gross profit that same year.

You can reduce your notional profit to €90k and then pay 12.5% on that €90k as opposed to splitting the €10k over 8 years and only reducing the €100k profit by €1250 for each of those 8yrs.

Overall the end result is more or less the same to the employer just that its all done in year 1 and thus improves their cash flow in the short term. Whether thats enough incentive for them to buy it is another question entirely.

Calahonda52

KC, the approach is correct: just a few points to clarify the difference between depreciation and capital allowances.

There are two sets of accounts prepared each year by businesses: one in the normal set of accounts where the P&L carries a depreciation charge which is supposed to reflect the charging of the cost of the asset over its useful life.

Then there is a set of accounts produced to calculate the tax due, this is where the capital allowances [CAs] are used, which are a taxation concept.

The two accounts are reconciled by adding back disallowable items in the normal P&L, such as depreciation and business entertainment and the like, and then deducting any allowable tax related items such as capital allowances, accelerated and just normal.

Just for completeness:
using accelerated capital allowances creates a balance sheet item called Deferred tax ( a liability ) which reflects the fact that by claiming 100% CA's, the tax position in future years has been distorted, as you highlight above, when tax payments will be higher, all other things being equal.

{ this is also how any clawbacks for disposal of an asset before it is fully written off normally for tax purposes is reflected.]

So to wrap it up:
Depreciation is an accounting concept
Capital Allowances are a tax construct
The two words are not seamlessly interchangeable

waynegalway

Calahonda52 wrote: »

KC, the approach is correct: just a few points to clarify the difference between depreciation and capital allowances.

There are two sets of accounts prepared each year by businesses: one in the normal set of accounts where the P&L carries a depreciation charge which is supposed to reflect the charging of the cost of the asset over its useful life.

Then there is a set of accounts produced to calculate the tax due, this is where the capital allowances [CAs] are used, which are a taxation concept.

The two accounts are reconciled by adding back disallowable items in the normal P&L, such as depreciation and business entertainment and the like, and then deducting any allowable tax related items such as capital allowances, accelerated and just normal.

Just for completeness:
using accelerated capital allowances creates a balance sheet item called Deferred tax ( a liability ) which reflects the fact that by claiming 100% CA's, the tax position in future years has been distorted, as you highlight above, when tax payments will be higher, all other things being equal.

{ this is also how any clawbacks for disposal of an asset before it is fully written off normally for tax purposes is reflected.]

So to wrap it up:
Depreciation is an accounting concept
Capital Allowances are a tax construct
The two words are not seamlessly interchangeable

Very thorough, thanks. Is all of that applicable to public sector employers as well (I'm just not sure if the term "business" is defined to include those)?

Calahonda52

waynegalway wrote: »

Very thorough, thanks. Is all of that applicable to public sector employers as well (I'm just not sure if the term "business" is defined to include those)?

Thanks: re your question, I have no idea: its a very interesting question:)

KCross

waynegalway wrote: »

Very thorough, thanks. Is all of that applicable to public sector employers as well (I'm just not sure if the term "business" is defined to include those)?

Companies and sole traders is what it says.

Public sector doesn't fit either of those definitions, I presume? PS will have a budget for each year and they spend it and its gone. No depreciation or corporation tax to worry about there. Could be wrong though.

A question to revenue or SEAI will be your only definitive answer on that one.

NIMAN

I once heard a cost of 10k to have one of those public chargers installed.

Not sure how true that would be.

tedpan

NIMAN wrote:

I once heard a cost of 10k to have one of those public chargers installed.

We had a quote at work for 12k 5 units with 2 outputs, so up to 10 cars charging at once.

Maybe a fast charger would cost 10k?

NIMAN

tedpan wrote: »

We had a quote at work for 12k 5 units with 2 outputs, so up to 10 cars charging at once.

Maybe a fast charger would cost 10k?

Can't remember where I heard the 10k figure from. Probably totally wrong.

Is the 12k for 10 spots, is that the equipment only or fitted as well? Sounds very cheap, and makes me even more disgusted my own workplace hasn't made an effort to get some installed.

McGiver

KCross wrote:

Overall the end result is more or less the same to the employer just that its all done in year 1 and thus improves their cash flow in the short term. Whether thats enough incentive for them to buy it is another question entirely.

OK, but what's the actual benefit? If I understand correctly it just reduces the tax base in 1 particular year by the cost of the equipment instead of spreading the cost (and thus reducing the tax base) over several years. But it's still an expense (i.e. an L on P&L) the employer has to make. There is no tax benefit per se and no grant either.

Also, then there is a question of who pays for the electricity consumed. And if it's the employee the how is this facilitated.

NIMAN

I remember when I spoke to someone from the relevant dept that might actually install a workplace charger, they said that I would have to pay for the electricity, as it wouldn't be fair on other employees if some got free fuel for their cars.

I agreed of course. (unless of course they were getting electricity to the chargers free too as some sort of Gov incentive)

McGiver

NIMAN wrote: »

I remember when I spoke to someone from the relevant dept that might actually install a workplace charger, they said that I would have to pay for the electricity, as it wouldn't be fair on other employees if some got free fuel for their cars.

I agreed of course. (unless of course they were getting electricity to the chargers free too as some sort of Gov incentive)

That's the argument from my peers.

"We don't get a free petrol from the company so you won't get this charging ever!"

gunnerfitzy

McGiver wrote: »

That's the argument from my peers.

"We don't get a free petrol from the company so you won't get this charging ever!"

If this was the case could not the same argument be made by a non-hot drinks person regarding a tea-room or a non-smoking person about a sheltered smoking area?

They are facilities provided by the employer for all employees. If they are not availed of by some then that is a personal decision by the individual employee.

Must it now be a requirement that everyone must use a facility in order for it to be provided?

waynegalway

gunnerfitzy wrote: »

If this was the case could not the same argument be made by a non-hot drinks person regarding a tea-room or a non-smoking person about a sheltered smoking area?

They are facilities provided by the employer for all employees. If they are not availed of by some then that is a personal decision by the individual employee.

Must it now be a requirement that everyone must use a facility in order for it to be provided?

I'm with you on this.

And even keeping it closer to the topic, what about staff who charge tablets/phones/laptops while at work? If you are going to be charged for choosing to plug your car in at work, then why not charge people who choose to charge their electronics at work? It's essentially the same thing (except you could argue that in some cases charging a car at work is more essential for some staff than charging a phone).

In terms of figures, I wouldn't have a clue. But I remember reading somewhere that the average smartphone is very cheap to keep charged, in the order of a few euro a year. Say €2 to be conservative. And to keep it simple, let's say €3 for a tablet and €5 for a laptop. That's a total of €10 per year per person (very rough estimate, I know!). There's about 600 staff where I work, so that's €6000 in electricity a year for gadgets. I know not everyone will charge all those things, so let's half it for arguments sake. €3000 a year for staff to charge their devices.

So, if EV drivers are going to be charged, and we aim for an equitable workplace, there's a €3000 bill for all staff to pick up too.

I posted on this topic on another thread and I got shot down, so I'm currently wearing my tin hat!


PS. By the way, on the hot drinks, there actually *was* a directive issued on that a few years back, where we had a limit on complimentary tea/coffee we could offer visitors and at meetings.

KCross

McGiver wrote: »

OK, but what's the actual benefit? If I understand correctly it just reduces the tax base in 1 particular year by the cost of the equipment instead of spreading the cost (and thus reducing the tax base) over several years. But it's still an expense (i.e. an L on P&L) the employer has to make. There is no tax benefit per se and no grant either.

Correct, no real assistance is given to the employer other than it makes it more palatable to proceed with the purchase. If the employer doesn't want to spend the money in the first place there is no financial incentive/assistance to buy the charger. Its just a cash flow thing.


The only other incentive is goodwill/PR/staff-retention etc. It will just be another one of those perks of the job like free tea, pension contributions, sports & social etc.
e.g. If you have a long commute and are saving €2000 a year in fuel and you use work place charging... are you going to move job to a workplace with no charging.... you'll need your net pay to go up by €2000 to break even and maybe change cars also. Its a simplified example but it will play into people's psyche when they get hooked on work place charging.

McGiver wrote: »

Also, then there is a question of who pays for the electricity consumed. And if it's the employee the how is this facilitated.

Thats entirely down to the employer.
The last budget confirmed that there is no BIK for providing work place charging.

In my opinion, the employer should charge for the electricity and plan to break even on it so keep the costs down.
If its free it will cause the begrudgers to come out of the woodwork and it will also cause hogging in the same way the public infrastructure is hogged.

Unless you have a big bank of chargers in the car park you are going to need to share and encourage people to charge for a few hours and move. Maybe a time limit of 2-3hrs depending on how many charger points and EV's you have.

Orebro

McGiver wrote: »

That's the argument from my peers.

"We don't get a free petrol from the company so you won't get this charging ever!"

I got so much begrudgery at the start like you wouldn't believe. One person even emailed Revenue to ask about the BIK implications of it, just to see if he could get our place to start charging me for the use. Another for months kept parking his ICE in the painted EV spaces because he "parked in the same space for years and wasn't changing because of this".

unkel

KCross wrote: »

In my opinion, the employer should charge for the electricity

The admin cost of charging is likely to be higher than the electricity costs. So no, they should not charge. They don't charge for coffee either, do they?

And a full charge everyday for an employee costs €10 per week. That's nothing compared to the wage cost. Not material.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

The admin cost of charging is likely to be higher than the electricity costs. So no, they should not charge. They don't charge for coffee either, do they?

And a full charge everyday for an employee costs €10 per week. That's nothing compared to the wage cost. Not material.

There are very simple charging mechanisms. I'm not talking about a complicated backend system with RFID cards, kWh meters etc.

The basic charge points for work places come with token systems. You put in your token and it allows you to charge based on kWh or time (whatever you program the unit to allow). Its simple and cost effective.

It also stops strangers using the charge point if your car park happens to be publicly accessible. Not an issue for some but it is for a lot of business parks.

Its not about charging for it to make money or cover the costs like you suggest... its about stopping begrudgery and abuse. Make it cheap.... €1 a token for 3hrs or something... its still cheap but it stops all the bad stuff.

You know yourself what free has done to the public infrastructure and there are enough anecdotes on this thread to tell you that free at the workplace is a real issue already for some.

If everyone at your workplace is happy to allow you free charging then good for you, it should/could remain free in that case!
I'm just saying charging for it can be a simple easy option/solution to deal with the issues.

gunnerfitzy

Orebro wrote: »

I got so much begrudgery at the start like you wouldn't believe. One person even emailed Revenue to ask about the BIK implications of it, just to see if he could get our place to start charging me for the use. Another for months kept parking his ICE in the painted EV spaces because he "parked in the same space for years and wasn't changing because of this".

Wow. What a bunch of *****!!I would have a few choice words for their retirement/farewell cards.

McGiver

I actually roughly calculated the cost of the electricity. I estimated that I would charge maybe twice a week for 4 hours, consuming about 29kWh per week. At 0.20/kWh, this equals about 5.30/week or 275 annually. It's ridiculous even talking about it. Unless you have 20 EVs around...

McGiver

Orebro wrote:

I got so much begrudgery at the start like you wouldn't believe. One person even emailed Revenue to ask about the BIK implications of it, just to see if he could get our place to start charging me for the use. Another for months kept parking his ICE in the painted EV spaces because he "parked in the same space for years and wasn't changing because of this".

That's a bit Irish alright

How large is your organisation? Just to see if I have any chance.

McGiver

unkel wrote:

And a full charge everyday for an employee costs €10 per week. That's nothing compared to the wage cost. Not material.

Exactly, it's low it's even ridiculous to talk about it.
Now the issue may be the charger itself actually. What costs are we talking about? Simple, single, slow.

unkel

Simple, single, slow, about EUR600-700

McGiver

KCross wrote:

It also stops strangers using the charge point if your car park happens to be publicly accessible. Not an issue for some but it is for a lot of business parks.

This would/could be an issue in our place. Two largish companies in our biz park are going to install a charger soon, so I'm curious if they leave it public/free or not.

KCross wrote:

The basic charge points for work places come with token systems. You put in your token and it allows you to charge based on kWh or time (whatever you program the unit to allow). Its simple and cost effective.

Can you recommend any specific solution?