Trainer road for structured training

sullzz

Hi guys , so I’m just back on the bike after 8 weeks off due to collarbone surgery .
Fitness is gone completely as I couldn’t use the turbo after having the surgery , any movement was too painful .
I’ve also been out of work for the 8 weeks and heading back on Monday , so will be facing a huge workload . Because of this I will be probably spending most of my training time on the turbo in the evenings , so am contemplating using Trainer road.
Do any of you guys use it ? , if so , are their structured plans any use ? I have a power meter that I will be using rather than the virtual power .

doozerie

I've been using it for a few years and I'm a fan of it.

There are loads of workouts to choose from, the app lets you select from them by things like training zone and the like which helps but unless you have a good idea of the kinds of sessions you want to do you could just lose yourself in the sheer volume of choice at least initially. There are training plans too though and that's probably the best place to start.

I worked my way through one or two of the training plans for last season and found them quite good. Also exposed me to some workouts that I probably wouldn't have chosen otherwise, and I found myself going back to some of those regularly later as I found them useful.

sullzz

doozerie wrote: »

I've been using it for a few years and I'm a fan of it.

There are loads of workouts to choose from, the app lets you select from them by things like training zone and the like which helps but unless you have a good idea of the kinds of sessions you want to do you could just lose yourself in the sheer volume of choice at least initially. There are training plans too though and that's probably the best place to start.

I worked my way through one or two of the training plans for last season and found them quite good. Also exposed me to some workouts that I probably wouldn't have chosen otherwise, and I found myself going back to some of those regularly later as I found them useful.

Do you find the ramp test accurate as a test for FTP or do you do the 20min test

doozerie

I've used the 20min and the (2x) 8min FTP tests. I found them accurate "enough" in that it was useful to test myself in the same scenario as I was going to be training in. And I did see my measured FTP figure change/increase as I worked through their plans so that gave me further reassurance that they are a reliable measure. I was using virtual power at the time.

When I (much) later tested myself on the road, with a power meter, I got a significantly higher figure. There are obviously lots of possible explanations for that, one being that my test on the turbo was under estimating it, but long story short I progressed on the turbo trainer based entirely on the FTP I measured there regularly and basing the turbo sessions on that measured figure

Macy0161

I've been using TrainerRoad a few years now. I've nothing really to compare it too, but I've definitely got stronger with it.

I used to do the 20 minute test, and was a beta tester for the ramp test. I didn't trust it initially, as it gave a lower figure! However, I haven't had to bail or reduce a vo2 max workout* since I started trusting it. From the podcast, they've a massive amount of data to verify it.

I also like the hardware requirements are a lot less than alternatives like zwift.

*I'd also say just because I could complete other workouts at the 20 minute test FTP, on reflection I'm not sure I was working in the intended zones. I.e. was I doing threshold rather than sweet spot?

dahat

I'm a big fan of TrainerRoad and have been using it for the last two winters for training. It will get you to Feb time in very good shape with little or no road work. I personally combine my chosen plan with a Sunday spin to prevent the mi d going bananas from indoor trainong over 3 months.

Sweet spot base is where I start each winter and go from there, workouts are progressive and include single leg drills, cadence work, strength work etc, ideal for your situation.

As you can see from my Strava I use it year round for specific work like VO2 that are hard to get right on the road.

sullzz

dahat wrote: »

I'm a big fan of TrainerRoad and have been using it for the last two winters for training. It will get you to Feb time in very good shape with little or no road work. I personally combine my chosen plan with a Sunday spin to prevent the mi d going bananas from indoor trainong over 3 months.

Sweet spot base is where I start each winter and go from there, workouts are progressive and include single leg drills, cadence work, strength work etc, ideal for your situation.

As you can see from my Strava I use it year round for specific work like VO2 that are hard to get right on the road.

yeah i see youre a big fan of it
id be like yourself , using mostly evenings as would need to get out on the road at least one day of the weekend to keep sane . although id be commuting to and from work most days on the bike , so will probably pick a mid level plan otherwise i could see myself burning out before the season even begins.
how did you find the FTP tests ? did you find their ramp test accurate enough ?

dahat

sullzz wrote: »

yeah i see youre a big fan of it
id be like yourself , using mostly evenings as would need to get out on the road at least one day of the weekend to keep sane . although id be commuting to and from work most days on the bike , so will probably pick a mid level plan otherwise i could see myself burning out before the season even begins.
how did you find the FTP tests ? did you find their ramp test accurate enough ?

Haven't done a ramp test yet but will be soon once I have a few recovery days planned. As for the actual result it's relevant to the workouts on TrainerRoad and easily adjustable via intensity level on each workout.

You will have a retest every 8 weeks with most of the plans, I'd have a fair idea of where my ftp is without testing due to trial & error so I tend to miss the tests unless absolutely nessecary.

You won't burn out from it, the plans are progressive and while tough the recovery weeks are well positioned to give you max benefit from it.

Macy0161

The ramp test is fine. There's no comparison to what a 20 minute test takes out of you. No pacing needed, and if on a smart trainer all you're really worried about is cadence. It's the last couple of minutes that "hurt", straight into cool down, and you can do another workout. I couldn't see me going back to another testing protocol.

dahat

Do another workout after an FTP test? Christ I've gotten all sort of wobbly legs getting off the turbo when done!!!

Chumpski

Huge fan of trainer road here and have got great results from it in the past 12 months.

At ~ 9 euro a month its nearly as good as having a personal coach and much cheaper.

The podcasts are excellent, try and get through them all, great training, racing advice as well as some perspective on off road racing which i wouldn't have too much experience with.

doozerie

On that subjective topic of time best spent, I consistently find that I come away from sessions on the turbo feeling as if every moment was well spent. I rarely get that when I try to simulate the same sessions on the road, spend so much time faffing about trying to find the right gear for the ever changing road gradient (I focus on cadence a lot for my sessions) that I'm almost finished an effort by the time I get properly settled into it.

So more often than not, for any planned session under 90 minutes I tend to choose the turbo over a road session. Which some internal voice of reason tells me is wrong, very wrong. On the plus side, what with my puffing and wheezing and grunting on the turbo, I generally drown out that voice of reason.

Chumpski

doozerie wrote: »

On that subjective topic of time best spent, I consistently find that I come away from sessions on the turbo feeling as if every moment was well spent. I rarely get that when I try to simulate the same sessions on the road, spend so much time faffing about trying to find the right gear for the ever changing road gradient (I focus on cadence a lot for my sessions) that I'm almost finished an effort by the time I get properly settled into it.

So more often than not, for any planned session under 90 minutes I tend to choose the turbo over a road session. Which some internal voice of reason tells me is wrong, very wrong. On the plus side, what with my puffing and wheezing and grunting on the turbo, I generally drown out that voice of reason.

What is also great is having a good plan to follow. They are not individual plans but are very good and not having to think about what your going to do today is super valuable, you just get your ass on the bike, take it 1 interval at a time and get quality work done.

For sanity sake and for the sake of not be on the trainer all the time and enjoying the bike i do all 1/1.5 hours at Z1/2 outside and just roughly follow the power targets the trainerroad workout mentions. I also dont do more than 2 hours on the trainer as thats nuts and will surely lead to burniut which is what base plans do. I chose sweet spot base which is max 2 hour sessions.

Also i get out on the bike for at least 1 long spin a week in Winter and then for races in Summer.

nordicb

Trainerroad is good, but I find it very boring on it's own, very repetitive too. There is no intelligence in their plans to take into account times when life gets in the way- kids, days off, family time, work, fatigue, race day, etc, so you'll need to plan a lot yourself and listen to your body. Skip a day and trainerroad plan goes from little to way off in terms of which day to do what and TSS. Personally I take their plans as a guidance only.

martyc5674

Has anyone done any of the structured programmes on Zwift?
How would they compare with trainer road?
I use Zwift through the poor weather and enjoy it... To me TR looks like a poor interface but I’ve omly seen YouTube vids etc.

joey100

Another vote for trainer road. Been using it for around 4 years now and love it. I've had coaches give me plans using their workouts made in the creator, done my own plans and followed trainer road plans. All worked well. At 9 euro a month I'm not sure much will match it for bang for buck. I usually stick on netflix and just put the trainer road bar down the bottom and find it grand. I use it around twice weekly all year and during the winter could be 4 times a week, but I'm a big fan of the turbo and have a fair few 4 and 5 hour spins on it.

Tried zwift for a while but never followed their plans. Found it good at the start but the novelty wore off after a while and I went back to trainer road. Never done the racing or anything on it though.

BikeRacer

joey100 wrote: »

...I'm a big fan of the turbo and have a fair few 4 and 5 hour spins on it.

Sweet suffering baby jaaysus.

Macy0161

nordicb wrote:

Trainerroad is good, but I find it very boring on it's own, very repetitive too. There is no intelligence in their plans to take into account times when life gets in the way- kids, days off, family time, work, fatigue, race day, etc, so you'll need to plan a lot yourself and listen to your body. Skip a day and trainerroad plan goes from little to way off in terms of which day to do what and TSS. Personally I take their plans as a guidance only.

In Android at least, you can easily get to the workout variants, and take a minus version when time is tight.

They have a lot of good stuff on their blog as well. I don't think any such plan is able to take into account what you want. But you can pretty much take Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday as the important ones.

Ability to move the workouts around/ calendar function is something they're working on though.

Whyner

Can you create custom workouts in TR like you can in Zwift? I got a spreadsheet from the coach each month and just configured these in Zwift for the months and away I went

I've only ever used Zwift (last 12 months) for training with ERG mode. Might try TR over the winter as the visuals have worn off on me and I just watch Netflix also.

4/5 hour spins is bonkers, my arse cheeks would bleed

coco0981

joey100 wrote: »

I'm a big fan of the turbo and have a fair few 4 and 5 hour spins on it.

Fair play to you that takes some serious determination, I've done 90 minutes on trainerroad but anything longer than that would be torture for me

Sinbad_NI

Trainerroad is great. Yes you can make custom workouts as well.

Add a Netflix account to watch during base phase and you're all set.

Boscoirl

Signed up to trainer road today, just did the ramp test, looks good so far,

Have gotten lazy recently so hopefully it’ll give me the kick up the ass I need

sullzz

Boscoirl wrote: »

Signed up to trainer road today, just did the ramp test, looks good so far,

Have gotten lazy recently so hopefully it’ll give me the kick up the ass I need

Signed up myself yesterday , did the ramp test ..... didn’t look so good

dahat

sullzz wrote: »

Signed up myself yesterday , did the ramp test ..... didn’t look so good

Big difference between this result and peak racing season ftp? 70 watts maybe?

sullzz

dahat wrote: »

Big difference between this result and peak racing season ftp? 70 watts maybe?

Nice a bad guess man , down 61w since June .
Well last FTP was start of June , crashed I think end of June so maybe a slightly higher loss .

dahat

sullzz wrote: »

Nice a bad guess man , down 61w since June .
Well last FTP was start of June , crashed I think end of June so maybe a slightly higher loss .

I'd say i was bang on the money then!

I dropped 30 watts ftp with 6 weeks off but i got it back fairly quickly i reckon so my next assessment will be interesting.

Did you do the ramp test on a non smart turbo?

Macy0161

dahat wrote: »

Did you do the ramp test on a non smart turbo?

Just to jump in, I recently got a hammer, and the ramp test is definitely easier than it was on non smart turbo. I kept mucking up the gearing near the end, but much easier just having a comfortable cadence (until it's not comfortable!). But when I first got the hammer, I did do another ramp test only a couple of days from the previous "dumb" attempt - a 1 watt difference...

dahat

Macy0161 wrote: »

Just to jump in, I recently got a hammer, and the ramp test is definitely easier than it was on non smart turbo. I kept mucking up the gearing near the end, but much easier just having a comfortable cadence (until it's not comfortable!). But when I first got the hammer, I did do another ramp test only a couple of days from the previous "dumb" attempt - a 1 watt difference...

Yeah, it was the gearing when at full pelt that concerns me. At least when doing the normal FTP i can just kiss the stem n drive on.

I do find the 11-25 block much better for the turbo as opposed to 11-28. Cadence alot easier find on the 25 block.

bp_me

nordicb wrote: »

Trainerroad is good, but I find it very boring on it's own, very repetitive too. There is no intelligence in their plans to take into account times when life gets in the way- kids, days off, family time, work, fatigue, race day, etc, so you'll need to plan a lot yourself and listen to your body. Skip a day and trainerroad plan goes from little to way off in terms of which day to do what and TSS. Personally I take their plans as a guidance only.

Yes it can be a problem. Depending on your volume you have to decide either to do it a day later or to skip it entirely.

Calendar feature is in development to hopefully solve these sorts of things for people.

nordicb

That's what I do, ignore days/weeks assignments, just follow the program by feel and target TSS (often missed ).

doozerie

One good feature recently added to TrainerRoad is that you can upload your non-turbo rides so that it shows your accurate overall TSS per week (and if you use a power meter on the road it means you get to see your power performance relative to your turbo sessions too).

It doesn't turn TrainerRoad into my one-stop shop for tracking all aspects of my training, but it's a good step towards that.

dahat

It would be handy if TrainerRoad continue to develop the platform to be a one stop shop as I'm paying for TP as well. I'd love to have it all in one place.

Has anyone a guide on setting TSS score for different stages of training? It's hard to know what's too much or too little TSS per week.

sullzz

dahat wrote: »

I'd say i was bang on the money then!

I dropped 30 watts ftp with 6 weeks off but i got it back fairly quickly i reckon so my next assessment will be interesting.

Did you do the ramp test on a non smart turbo?

No I did it on a standard turbo with Power meter pedals .

sullzz

dahat wrote: »

It would be handy if TrainerRoad continue to develop the platform to be a one stop shop as I'm paying for TP as well. I'd love to have it all in one place.

What are you using TP for ? Is it just to analyze power ? Check out Golden Cheetah !!

dahat

sullzz wrote: »

What are you using TP for ? Is it just to analyze power ? Check out Golden Cheetah !!

For fancy graphs!!!! Its easy navigate and has a decent mobile app.

My laptop is woeful and work lappy won't allow me install any programs as I've no administration access. Do I need full admin access to install it?

doozerie

dahat wrote: »

It would be handy if TrainerRoad continue to develop the platform to be a one stop shop as I'm paying for TP as well. I'd love to have it all in one place.

Has anyone a guide on setting TSS score for different stages of training? It's hard to know what's too much or too little TSS per week.

I briefly considered subscribing to TP, after I bought my Wahoo Bolt (since Wahoo are closely tied to TP), but I never delved into it properly.

From what I understand, TP is good at analysing your sessions but from my limited reading it seemed like a big chunk of that was calculating stuff you could easily calculate yourself anyway, such as ATL, CTL. Having said that, I have regular/free TP account and after my Bolt automatically uploads a ride to it I get notified if my threshold HR has changed, so I may be oblivious to a lot of analysis that TP is doing.

I'd be interested to know what you find useful in TP?

Re TSS, you could perhaps look at one of the TrainerRoad training plans and see the TSS that they amount to each week, as a reference. Assuming you thought the plan suited your purposes you could aim for a similar TSS each week if following your own plan

dahat

I have all the info but analysing it is my downfall, sometimes I wonder if I'm just wasting money on TP Premium as I can manage my sessions without it due to having a fair idea on my hr & power levels at different times etc.

I'm currently at 600-900 TSS (4 weeks) with a recovery week due next week as I'm hoping to race on Sept 15th.

That TSS comes from VO2, threshold, 2hr Z2 then Saturday spin (no plan just easy ish) then a Sunday club spin that is usually Z2/Z3 with bursts here n there.

Macy0161

I've actually stopped my training peaks sub the next time it comes up. Now I'm focussed more on the bike trainer road is enough, and they're working on bringing in cross training as well.

joey100

Thought I'd ask in here rather than starting a new thread. How do people find erg mode with trainer road? Been using trainer road for years and have had a wahoo kickr (gen 1) but never used it on erg mode until last night. Maybe it was my expectations were off but found it didn't really settle on the intervals. Resistance wasn't consistent, even with me holding the same cadence found there could be little slips in it and would take me 20-30 seconds to get it back right again, would vary 10-15 watts either side of the target (around 220w) at times, not a huge amount but enough that it was annoying. Anyone else experienced this? Is it normal enough?

nordicb

Kickr snap gen 1 here and it is spot on in erg mode. 10-15W suggests, perhaps, it wasn't in erg mode properly.
I may be wrong, but trainerroad switches off erg mode if cadence comes to a halt, because spinning the flywheel from dead stop when resistance is high is nearly impossible. Need to make sure you have no other apps trying to control it, for example wahoo app and trainerroad simultaneously. Trainerroad displays ERG mode at the bottom of the screen. If you are connecting with ANT+, devices need to be fairly close from each other and nothing in between.

The only gripe I have sometimes is that intervals may kick in few seconds late and finish late too, in other words, what's on display is a little out of sync with the actual resistance, but only at times. It is especially noticeable if cadence changes before starting and finishing interval, as if kickr tries to modulate the resistance ignoring software requests at those short moments.

joey100

The cadence would be staying the same throughout, so last night was around 84, but every now and again the power would drop by 10-15 watts or let me go 10-15 watts above, by the end it averaged out at the target power over the length of the interval. No other apps going at same time, only trainer road and the bike is nearly on top of the laptop. Have just remembered though have had issues with wifi losing connection and then re-connecting after few seconds so I wonder if this has something to do with it? I know they are communicating through bluetooth but might be an issue maybe?

nordicb

I'm sure you have the latest firmware on kickr and latest trainerroad...
It does sound like a connection drop out, a bit, except that when it happens to me, the resistance goes very light, but I use ANT+ dongle as laptop has no BLE.
It is known WiFi to interfere with ANT+ signal, but not bluetooth... WiFi can be completely off when using trainerroad if it helps.

I think trainerroad has an option to smooth power reading, set in seconds.
Wahoo app has a setting to smooth power in erg mode on kickr, which is on by default.

Macy0161

I've only recently gone smart turbo (hammer in my case) and started using erg mode. The advice I picked up was smoothing at around 5 seconds, and inner ring and middle of the block, for erg mode. Only had a couple of issues - one drop out and one occasion where either the box or turbo seemed to freeze at the end of an interval.

I use an Android TV box, and an Ant+ dongle on a short extension. But iirc if you have both Ant+ and Bluetooth open I think TrainerRoad picks whatever it thinks is best? They have mentioned interference a few times on the podcast and the facebook group - microwaves seem particularly problematic, even several rooms away!

Incidentally, the calendar function has launched in Beta.

doozerie

For each interval my erg-mode trainer (Tacx Neo) ramps up 2 seconds before the interval starts, and ramps down again 2 seconds before it ends. It's the TrainerRoad app that is controlling this, so I'd imagine it's the very same for any trainer. So for intervals where I have to maintain or increase my cadence I increase my cadence in the last 3 or 4 seconds before the interval starts so that I don't hit a "wall" of resistance.

Certainly for the Neo I've seen discussions about older versions of the firmware having various bugs which resulted in the resistance not being stable/consistent throughout the interval. I don't experience that with mine, on the latest firmware, but I do notice that if I'm not pedalling smoothly then the resistance varies as it adjusts. An example of that is where I keep my cadence the same but don't maintain roughly the same pressure on the pedals throughout the revolution - I've seen this in detail when using dual power meter pedals on the bike on the turbo, my cadence figure didn't change (but remember it's an averaged figure so the displayed figure doesn't capture brief peaks and troughs), but my power distribution varied across the pedals as one leg eased off at a time, the brief resistance changes seemed in line with my actual power output in so far as I could tell for such short periods in a strenuous interval.

nordicb

Perhaps the reason we see this on and off delay is because trainerroad magnifies their 5 second interval display into half of the screen width. Due to smoothing, it is often 5 second bursts never get to the power target as it takes longer than 5 seconds to ramp up and down, depending on the target power. I saw same thing on Sufferfest, their The Shovel video has 200%+ FTP bumps, but for very short. PS: It's my favourite video of theirs and I find it very hard, going at FTP effort after it feels really easy!

dahat

OP, how have you found TrainerRoad so far?

sullzz

dahat wrote: »

OP, how have you found TrainerRoad so far?

Yeah Dahat , loving it so far . Although I’m only on a base phase at the moment I’m starting to feel a lot of my fitness has returned since starting it .
The on screen text was great at first and gave great tips at the start like for pedaling technique etc . but I’m considering turning it off as it’s really distracting .

Shoco83

I find the Bluetooth connection to be more stable than the ant+ connection and would rarely have a power drop. Also when there's an interval the Bluetooth seems to hit the power target a lot quicker than the ant+

Think I have some free trials if anyone wants one

dahat

sullzz wrote: »

Yeah Dahat , loving it so far . Although I’m only on a base phase at the moment I’m starting to feel a lot of my fitness has returned since starting it .
The on screen text was great at first and gave great tips at the start like for pedaling technique etc . but I’m considering turning it off as it’s really distracting .

You'll be all dressed up with nowwhere to go in few weeks (like myself now).

sullzz

dahat wrote: »

You'll be all dressed up with nowwhere to go in few weeks (like myself now).

You not coming up for the Lucan GP ?

dahat

sullzz wrote: »

You not coming up for the Lucan GP ?

No, handicap race didn't appeal to me. If it was a straight A3 i would have travelled alright.

I'm hoping to get reassigned to A4 next year under appeal so a freak result in a handicap race wouldn't have helped my cause at all.