If a bus tries to run you off the road...

mrcheez

...is that attempted murder?

Context: I'm cycling along in the bus lane as adjoining cycle lane is packed full of slower cyclists. Bus behind me clearly does not like me on the bus lane so hoots and then narrowly overtakes.
While passing it pulls in left toward kerb in an attempt to push me left into the cycle lane (which is full). So in other words I have nowhere to go.

Comes within 5cm of my handlebar before I have to pull on the brakes so I can get in behind the bus.

The intention was to knock me off, or push me left, either of which would likely have caused injury/death.

I didn't have my video camera running, but just curious if that would be regarded as attempted murder in court?

*mental note* charge my camera

Wishbone Ash

mrcheez wrote: »

.., but just curious if that would be regarded as attempted murder in court?...

Not in a million years. I doubt that it would even merit a manslaughter charge.

07Lapierre

No. but i suggest you report it to the gardai as a dangerous driving incident.

mrcheez

07Lapierre wrote: »

No. but i suggest you report it to the gardai as a dangerous driving incident.

It probably wouldn't go very far without footage, though I suspect I could contact Dublin Bus.

They will usually respond with "the driver has been warned"

ford2600

mrcheez wrote: »

It probably wouldn't go very far without footage, though I suspect I could contact Dublin Bus.

Hypothetically if he had injured/killed you the bus footage would be available; which includes speed and deceleration/acceleration inputs from driver. From memory there are maybe 15-20 cameras on Dublin buses.


Dangerous driving causing death would be highest charge( open to correction I'm no lawyer)

White Clover

You have to be responsible for yourself too. By cycling in the bus lane, you showed scant regard for your own personal safety.

What Username Guidelines

Had a similar incident a couple of months ago. No other cyclists around, I was in a cycle lane, this driver was just an a**hole.

Reported to Dublin bus. Stock reply. Reported to Gardai. Still waiting on a call to be returned.

Not holding out much hope but I’m taking this one as far as I can. I’ve had incidents before with a wave from the driver or them saying they made a mistake. But this guy told me I should be in the cycle lane. I was. And then attempted to nudge me out of the way afterwards while I was standing by his window and he wanted to drive away.

All on camera.

mrcheez

White Clover wrote: »

You have to be responsible for yourself too. By cycling in the bus lane, you showed scant regard for your own personal safety.

Hmm last I checked, both bikes and buses are permitted in the bus lane

Only taxis are "allowed" to use it, but the lane is designated for bikes/buses.




sounds like a good ol' case of victim blaming there sir

07Lapierre

White Clover wrote: »

You have to be responsible for yourself too. By cycling in the bus lane, you showed scant regard for your own personal safety.

I disagree. if the OP is guilty of anything, i'd say he's guilty of cycling too far to the left. He should have cycled in the middle of the bus lane to ensure the bus couldn't overtake. Buses usually have to pull in every few hundred yards at bus stops anyway.

Ray Bloody Purchase

07Lapierre wrote: »

I disagree. if the OP is guilty of anything, i'd say he's guilty of cycling too far to the left. He should have cycled in the middle of the bus lane to ensure the bus couldn't overtake.Buses usually have to pull in every few hundred yards at bus stops anyway.

The placement of some bus stops confuse me, maybe it's just because there's no other place to put them or there's a historical reason that they're so close together.

This would be an example here, there's only 160m approx between the two stops.


https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/53.3124119,-6.2991121/53.3135412,-6.2975886/@53.3129185,-6.2983013,18z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e1

07Lapierre

Ray Bloody Purchase wrote: »

The placement of some bus stops confuse me, maybe it's just because there's no other place to put them or there's a historical reason that they're so close together.

This would be an example here, there's only 160m approx between the two stops.


https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/53.3124119,-6.2991121/53.3135412,-6.2975886/@53.3129185,-6.2983013,18z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e1

https://goo.gl/maps/nosxXKVF4CU2

I cycle in this bus lane a lot. when doing so, i cycle right over the letter "U", which is right in the middle of the lane. if a bus comes up behind me...i speed up until we reach the next bus stop. if a taxi comes up behind me, the driver usually lets me know hes there by trying to overtake anyway, regardless of what traffic is in the lane to the right (numpty's).

if anyone else come along the bus lane, they can sod off and wait!

seamus

A murder charge requires that the accused intended to kill or cause serious injury.

Manslaughter arises from a death out of a deliberate act, where the act itself did not include intent to cause death or serious injury, but from which death or serious injury was a reasonably likely/foreseeable outcome and the accused was negligent in their act.

The bus driver's defence in this regard would be that they didn't intend to hurt the cyclist, merely to scare or intimidate them.

So clearly "attempted murder" would fail. "Attempted manslaughter", I'm not sure has ever been used as a charge, because by definition it's not really manslaughter unless someone is killed. This is why we have things like "criminal negligence", or the vehicular equivalent of dangerous driving, and death by dangerous driving.

What's described in the OP is dangerous driving, unless he has evidence that the bus driver was actually intending to run him over.

Tenzor07

White Clover wrote: »

You have to be responsible for yourself too. By cycling in the bus lane, you showed scant regard for your own personal safety.

Most Bus lanes are cycle lanes, and cyclists aren't legally obliged to use them.

Also a Dublin Bus driver doesn't own the road just because of a bit of paint and should be charged with careless driving in this case..using his bus to intimidate vulnerable road users means he should have to go through re-training at his depot.

Eamonnator

mrcheez wrote: »

Hmm last I checked, both bikes and buses are permitted in the bus lane

Only taxis are "allowed" to use it, but the lane is designated for bikes/buses.




sounds like a good ol' case of victim blaming there sir

Part of the problem may be calling them "Bus lanes"
From the sign, surely the correct designation should be "Bus and Cycle Lane"

Ray Bloody Purchase

07Lapierre wrote: »

https://goo.gl/maps/nosxXKVF4CU2

I cycle in this bus lane a lot. when doing so, i cycle right over the letter "U", which is right in the middle of the lane. if a bus comes up behind me...i speed up until we reach the next bus stop. if a taxi comes up behind me, the driver usually lets me know hes there by trying to overtake anyway, regardless of what traffic is in the lane to the right (numpty's).

if anyone else come along the bus lane, they can sod off and wait!

Dead right, that's very, very tight there. I've started holding the road a bit better too, makes it so much easier for overtaking anyone badly parked in the bus/bike lane.

The traffic is going to start building up now that schools are back, so that's a help!

Tenzor07

Was it this guy again?

Amirani

White Clover wrote: »

You have to be responsible for yourself too. By cycling in the bus lane, you showed scant regard for your own personal safety.

I suppose women wearing short skirts (perfectly legal) are showing scant regard for their personal safety against getting raped so in your view? :rolleyes:

Cycling in the bus lane is perfectly legal. If a bus driver driving dangerously hits a cyclist, it is not the victim's fault. Your post at best is encouraging victim blaming.

jon1981

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Was it this guy again?

Unfortunately there are a few like this guy out there. It boggles my mind, you're a bus driver, you're paid to sit in traffic...why carry on like this?!

jon1981

White Clover wrote: »

You have to be responsible for yourself too. By cycling in the bus lane, you showed scant regard for your own personal safety.

No idea why this has "thank yous' ... despite this being absolutely wrong , where would you have him cycle? One lane over in the actual motor vehicle traffic or are you with the " they don't even pay road tax " brigade.

green123

Amirani wrote: »

I suppose women wearing short skirts (perfectly legal) are showing scant regard for their personal safety against getting raped so in your view? :rolleyes:

Cycling in the bus lane is perfectly legal. If a bus driver driving dangerously hits a cyclist, it is not the victim's fault. Your post at best is encouraging victim blaming.

The previous poster is right to say you need to look after yourself and have some personal responsibility.

The way you conduct yourself does have an impact on how things work out for you.

Whatever way you look at it bicycles and motor vehicles sharing the same space is a recipe for disaster.

Of course we should be able to walk around a dodgy part of town flashing our 1000 euro iPhone.

Of course we should be able to leave our 1000 euro bike with a cheap lock or no lock at all.

But we all know it is not a good idea to do them things. There are better and safer ways to look after iphones and bikes.

There is a better and safer way to cycle also.

Just like so many others chose to use the cycle lane ( it was full).
Ok, so maybe it is a bit slower, but it is much safer.

You wouldn't put your iPhone or bike in danger so why put yourself in danger ?

Victims are often at fault and should be blamed or at least partly blamed in lots of cases

jon1981

Ok, having reviewed that video again, i'm going to call out one point about the video in the defence of the bus driver.

Driver does enter the lane at the brief lane hatching , you then also see more cyclists on the other side of the bus moving over to take a right turn, though presumably they were pretty close to him also, which he is also trying to avoid.

magicbastarder

green123 wrote: »

Just like so many others chose to use the cycle lane ( it was full).
Ok, so maybe it is a bit slower, but it is much safer.

citation required.

jon1981

Weepsie wrote: »

That video was discussed to death previously. Doesn't need to be done again.

Video was posted in this thread so I commented. I wasn't aware of it.

Eamonnator

green123 wrote: »

The previous poster is right to say you need to look after yourself and have some personal responsibility.

The way you conduct yourself does have an impact on how things work out for you.

Whatever way you look at it bicycles and motor vehicles sharing the same space is a recipe for disaster.

Of course we should be able to walk around a dodgy part of town flashing our 1000 euro iPhone.

Of course we should be able to leave our 1000 euro bike with a cheap lock or no lock at all.

But we all know it is not a good idea to do them things. There are better and safer ways to look after iphones and bikes.

There is a better and safer way to cycle also.

Just like so many others chose to use the cycle lane ( it was full).
Ok, so maybe it is a bit slower, but it is much safer.

You wouldn't put your iPhone or bike in danger so why put yourself in danger ?

Victims are often at fault and should be blamed or at least partly blamed in lots of cases

If you are at fault, you cease to be a victim.
Not the case here.

green123

magicbastarder wrote: »

citation required.

Most people don't need statistics to figure out things that are very obvious.

Do you really think both options are equally safe ?

Wishbone Ash

jon1981 wrote: »

No idea why this has "thank yous' ... despite this being absolutely wrong , where would you have him cycle? One lane over in the actual motor vehicle traffic or are you with the " they don't even pay road tax " brigade.

White Clover was referring to the OP's scenario where there was a cycle track to the left of the bus lane. (BTW - I don't agree with his/her opinion.)

mrcheez

green123 wrote: »

The previous poster is right to say you need to look after yourself and have some personal responsibility.

The way you conduct yourself does have an impact on how things work out for you.

Just to clarify.

I was ahead of the bus, not cycling beside it when we first crossed paths.

The bus came up behind me, hooted, then proceeded to overtake and move in LEFT as it did so in an attempt to push me into the crowded bike lane.

I narrowly avoided a collision with an elderly gent on his bike to my left as I was forced left.

So nothing about my "conduct" could prevent the actions of someone dangerously overtaking and forcing me off the road.

The bus wasn't pulling into pick-up/drop-off, it just simply barged it's way through.

gk5000

mrcheez wrote: »

...is that attempted murder?

Context: I'm cycling along in the bus lane as adjoining cycle lane is packed full of slower cyclists. Bus behind me clearly does not like me on the bus lane so hoots and then narrowly overtakes.
While passing it pulls in left toward kerb in an attempt to push me left into the cycle lane (which is full). So in other words I have nowhere to go.

Comes within 5cm of my handlebar before I have to pull on the brakes so I can get in behind the bus.

The intention was to knock me off, or push me left, either of which would likely have caused injury/death.

I didn't have my video camera running, but just curious if that would be regarded as attempted murder in court?

*mental note* charge my camera

How about looking at this another way - say 2 cars were merging into one lane - then the one who is ahead gets the lane the other has to slow/brake.

Happens all the time and you don't hear drivers moaning about it.



Similarly if two bikes were merging into one lane - then one gets the lane, and the other has to slow/brake.



The driver passed you, and most likely wished to get back into his own lane.
Again, if you are driving a car and are being passed out - do you allow the other person to continue their maneuver, or do you try to prevent them from pulling in (which may/should be contra to common sense and rules of the road).


Also, was the bus behind you when you commenced your own overtaking maneuver of the other cyclists - was that a save maneuver - given you did not have a clear exit strategy or place to pull in.


Were the cyclists in the bike lane already two abreast when you overtook them?


p.s. I am a cyclist/commuter but believe "traffic is a two way street".

magicbastarder

green123 wrote: »

Most people don't need statistics to figure out things that are very obvious.

Do you really think both options are equally safe ?

you have no idea what the cycle lane provided was like. you're assuming it's safer than the bus lane. many cycle lanes in ireland are not fit for purpose or safe, one of the reasons they've removed the requirements for cyclists to use them.

so again, citation required.

Wishbone Ash

gk5000 wrote: »

How about looking at this another way - say 2 cars were merging into one lane - then the one who is ahead gets the lane the other has to slow/brake.

Happens all the time and you don't hear drivers moaning about it...

That's a silly analogy. Cars have protective measures in their construction to aid safety. Are you seriously saying that a cyclist v bus is the same as car v car?

gk5000

mrcheez wrote: »

Just to clarify.

I was ahead of the bus, not cycling beside it when we first crossed paths.

The bus came up behind me, hooted, then proceeded to overtake and move in LEFT as it did so in an attempt to push me into the crowded bike lane.

I narrowly avoided a collision with an elderly gent on his bike to my left as I was forced left.

So nothing about my "conduct" could prevent the actions of someone dangerously overtaking and forcing me off the road.

The bus wasn't pulling into pick-up/drop-off, it just simply barged it's way through.

See my previous post which crossed- but it looks like you yourself were doing a dangerous overtaking - at minimum that you did not have somewhere to pull in when you started your overtaking - and did not check if there was someone behind you when you pulled out.

gk5000

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

That's a silly analogy. Cars have protective measures in their construction to aid safety. Are you seriously saying that a cyclist v bus is the same as car v car?

Are you saying a bus is supposed to yield to a cyclist - when it is ahead of the cyclist?
Edit to add - the cyclist has no more rights than the bus/car just because its a cyclist.

07Lapierre

gk5000 wrote: »

See my previous post which crossed- but it looks like you yourself were doing a dangerous overtaking - at minimum that you did not have somewhere to pull in when you started your overtaking - and did not check if there was someone behind you when you pulled out.

gk5000 wrote: »

Are you saying a bus is supposed to yield to a cyclist - when it is ahead of the cyclist?

Did you read the same OP as the rest of us?

Wishbone Ash

gk5000 wrote: »

... you did not have somewhere to pull in when you started your overtaking...

He had no obligation to pull in as he is perfectly legally entitled to utilise the bus lane. He effectively changed lanes. The bus driver could have waited behind or moved across to the normal traffic lane.

gk5000

07Lapierre wrote: »

Did you read the same OP as the rest of us?

Well lets see - how many abreast was he overtaking if the cycle lane was packed - if he had somewhere to pull in.

gk5000

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

He had no obligation to pull in as he is perfectly legally entitled to utilise the bus lane. He effectively changed lanes. The bus driver could have waited behind or moved across to the normal traffic lane.

That is a worrying comment - so he's entitled to impede the bus and expect it to wait?
I think its classed as cycling/driving without care and attention - without due consideration to other road users.


Just cos your a cyclist doesn't mean you have to be biassed - or not see the other side.

Edit to add - your friend is in a hurry so makes an unsafe overtaking of other cyclists out of the dedicated cycle lane - yes expects the bus to either slow down for him or make an unsafe maneuver into the regular traffic lane!

07Lapierre

gk5000 wrote: »

Well lets see - how many abreast was he overtaking if the cycle lane was packed - if he had somewhere to pull in.

Why pull in? OP is cycling in the bus lane, bus overtakes the OP, bus deliberately tries to run him off the road. The only illegal/unsafe manover is done by the bus driver? the cycle lane and how many cyclists are on it is irrelevant.

seamus

gk5000 wrote: »

Well lets see - how many abreast was he overtaking if the cycle lane was packed - if he had somewhere to pull in.

Is that relevant?

wench

gk5000 wrote: »

Are you saying a bus is supposed to yield to a cyclist - when it is ahead of the cyclist?

You can't get half the bus ahead of the cyclist and then just move left and expect them to vanish!

Wishbone Ash

gk5000 - I used to be a bus driver. I know what's it's like. In the OP's scenario, the driver appears to have bullied the cyclist by making a close pass yet you think the cyclist is at fault even though the cyclist has done nothing illegal.

Would the driver do that during a bus driving test?

green123

magicbastarder wrote: »

you have no idea what the cycle lane provided was like. you're assuming it's safer than the bus lane. many cycle lanes in ireland are not fit for purpose or safe, one of the reasons they've removed the requirements for cyclists to use them.

so again, citation required.

How about you give us the figures for the amount of cyclists killed on the road and then give us the figures for how many were killed while in a cycle lane ?

Even without looking it up what do you think the answer will be ?

I really don't know why you are persisting with this.

gk5000

seamus wrote: »

Is that relevant?

Well of the cyclists were already packed / two abreast then he should not have passed to become three abreast - or are cyclist allowed to take all the available road space?


I'm not sure of the law for cyclist on this - but for a car you are required to make sure the road is clear ahead so you can pull in before you pass - but at minimum it is sensible to ensure you have somewhere to pull in after you pass - and not leave your self in space like this cyclist did.

Chips Lovell

The law isn't that you're allowed cycle in the bus lane if you need to overtake people in a cycle lane.

The law is that you're allowed cycle in the bus lane. Full stop.

magicbastarder

green123 wrote: »

How about you give us the figures for the amount of cyclists killed on the road and then give us the figures for how many were killed while in a cycle lane ?

Even without looking it up what do you think the answer will be ?

I really don't know why you are persisting with this.

if there were no cyclists killed while cycling a green trek hybrid in the last five years, does that make green trek hybrids safer to cycle?

i'm 'persisting' with this because there are cycle lanes i refuse to use because they are not fit for purpose, and would place me in greater danger than using the road.
your assumption that a cycle lane is automatically safer than the road is just a little odd.

07Lapierre

gk5000 wrote: »

I'm not sure of the law for cyclist

agreed

green123

mrcheez wrote: »

Just to clarify.

So nothing about my "conduct" could prevent the actions of someone dangerously overtaking and forcing me off the road.

The bus wasn't pulling into pick-up/drop-off, it just simply barged it's way through.

Of course the bus driver was wrong to do that.

And in my example the person robbing the iPhone and robbing the bike are also wrong.

Your conduct and your decision not to use the cycle lane contributed to this.

Just like the person wandering around flashing an iphone or the person who doesn't lock their bike properly also contributed to getting them stolen.

Did the bus nearly hit any of the cyclists who chose to cycle in the cycle lane ?

seamus

gk5000 wrote: »

Well of the cyclists were already packed / two abreast then he should not have passed to become three abreast

You don't seem to know or understand the law.

An individual cyclist may overtake any number of cyclists, even if that results in them riding 3/4/5/90 abreast, provided that they are performing an overtake.

Cyclists may always ride 2 abreast, regardless of whether they are overtaking or not.

07Lapierre

green123 wrote: »

Your conduct and your decision not to use the cycle lane contributed to this.

Absolute rubbish! the bus driver did not have to deliberately try to push the cyclist out of the bus lane.

mrcheez

gk5000 wrote: »

See my previous post which crossed- but it looks like you yourself were doing a dangerous overtaking - at minimum that you did not have somewhere to pull in when you started your overtaking - and did not check if there was someone behind you when you pulled out.

Hmm where did I say I pulled out to overtake? I was maintaining a steady position in the bus lane as the cycle lane was full of slower cyclists.

If you are suggesting I keep swerving in and out of the bike lane as I overtake each cyclist then *that* is considered dangerous.


Again think of the analogy of the two cars. One car is in the lane (the bike in this instance), the other car (bus) overtakes when it is safe to do so and only moves left in the lane after having passed the first car. They don't move left WHILE in the overtake, thus pushing the first car left.


They really should make cycling-proficiency a requirement for learner drivers as it makes you a much better driver.

magicbastarder

green123 wrote: »

Your conduct and your decision not to use the cycle lane contributed to this.

we've been through this. the OP was in the cycle lane - there were two provided.

07Lapierre

magicbastarder wrote: »

we've been through this. the OP was in the cycle lane - there were two provided.

Maybe a better way of explaining cycle lanes is to state that the only lanes that are NOT cycle lanes are on Motorways!