Crime and Punushment in Ireland

Kiith

So after reading about another 16 year old getting arrested for burglary and being a part of a major crime gang, i was left wondering how the justice system in Ireland actually works. It seems like a fairly regular occurrence to read about people with a huge number of convictions committing yet another crime.

How can a person, at any age, have 50+ convictions and not be in jail for the rest of their lives (or at least 20 years)? I understand that concurrent sentencing is a thing, but i don't actually understand why. Surely consecutive sentencing makes way more sense, and is actually a deterrent for criminals? And do any political parties that actually talk about this, or have some sort of plan to actually clamp down on this sort of ****e?

I just get angry when i read about these people who have absolutely no regard for the law, or for anyone else.

whisky_galore

Someone from lower classes gets in trouble - 50+ previous convictions but had a tough childhood in deprived circumstances.

Middle and upper classes - no previous convictions, but comes from a well-respected family.

super_furry

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0725/892850-michael-cash-eva-sutton/

96 previous convictions. He was on ball when he broke into the house of an 89 year old women and they beat her for an hour and a half, leaving her with broken bones and a punctured lung.

What's the sentence? Eight years. He'll be out in five, will be just gone 30 and will be straight back into the same thuggery.

I’m all for second chances, even third chances and the prospect of rehabilitation, but when someone has 100 convictions by the age of 25, they’re never going to change.

Grayson

We need to stop looking at it as a crime and punishment issue and more as a public health issue. the places that have taken this approach have seen massive drops in crime. Whereas the deterrent of a sentence doesn't appear to work.
That doesn't mean getting rid of sentences. It just means that we need to do more than just that.

Sardine

It's a tough one because I see people on these boards longing for mega prisons to be built and tougher judges etc. I do realise sentences are way too leniant a lot of the time, but I fear harsher sentences and mega prisons etc may turn our society into a more dog-eat-dog society and will actually increase crime and violence. I think that's how it is in the US.
Probably some kind of Nordic model works best, but I can't see any Irish governments investing in that kind of thing any time soon.

arctictree

Sardine wrote: »

It's a tough one because I see people on these boards longing for mega prisons to be built and tougher judges etc. I do realise sentences are way too leniant a lot of the time, but I fear harsher sentences and mega prisons etc may turn our society into a more dog-eat-dog society and will actually increase crime and violence. I think that's how it is in the US.
Probably some kind of Nordic model works best, but I can't see any Irish governments investing in that kind of thing any time soon.

Surely though if most of the criminals are locked up, it means less crime on the streets?

I could be wrong but I think that a judge does not know the amount of previous convictions when sentencing an offender.

Shenshen

arctictree wrote: »

Surely though if most of the criminals are locked up, it means less crime on the streets?

I could be wrong but I think that a judge does not know the amount of previous convictions when sentencing an offender.

The US seem to be operating under this assumption, they currently have nearly 1 in 100 of their population in jail. And looking at their crime rates, it doesn't really seem to have the desired effect.

I would assume that early intervention and prevention schemes work far better. Why build big prisons for vast amounts of money, when you could send that money and spare the victims their ordeal in the first place?

Trigger Happy

arctictree wrote: »

Surely though if most of the criminals are locked up, it means less crime on the streets?
.

I am all for building a new big prison in this country. The public need to be protected from serial offenders. Proper sentences and parole only if a parole board believes minimal chance of reoffending. Give the victims a say in parole hearings.
We should not be wringing our hands about this.
There are many problems with the US model though, notably the privatization of the prison service.

na1

super_furry wrote: »

What's the sentence? Eight years. He'll be out in five.

This eight years actually include the previous conviction because he was on bail at the time.

greenspurs

Crime - Lots of.
Punishment - not enough of

Ulysses Gaze

super_furry wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0725/892850-michael-cash-eva-sutton/

96 previous convictions. He was on ball when he broke into the house of an 89 year old women and they beat her for an hour and a half, leaving her with broken bones and a punctured lung.

What's the sentence? Eight years. He'll be out in five, will be just gone 30 and will be straight back into the same thuggery.

I’m all for second chances, even third chances and the prospect of rehabilitation, but when someone has 100 convictions by the age of 25, they’re never going to change.

Cash, eh. Wonder if he is any relation to a woman that has been in the news recently....

Sardine

arctictree wrote: »

Surely though if most of the criminals are locked up, it means less crime on the streets?

I could be wrong but I think that a judge does not know the amount of previous convictions when sentencing an offender.

They might also surrender less easily and try and go out with a bang if they know they're going down forever.
I do agree some people guilty of horrible crimes should face harsher sentencing but we should probably be investing more in social services to prevent these types of crimes in the first place.

na1

Sardine wrote: »

Probably some kind of Nordic model works best.

Anders Behring Breivik salutes you!

Shenshen

Trigger Happy wrote: »

I am all for building a new big prison in this country. The public need to be protected from serial offenders. Proper sentences and parole only if a parole board believes minimal chance of reoffending. Give the victims a say in parole hearings.
We should not be wringing our hands about this.
There are many problems with the US model though, notably the privatization of the prison service.

If locking them all up is the answer, surely a privatised system would only bring more benefits? Longer sentences, less chance for parole, since it's in the financial interest of the operator to keep them inside?

whisky_galore

Shenshen wrote: »

If locking them all up is the answer, surely a privatised system would only bring more benefits? Longer sentences, less chance for parole, since it's in the financial interest of the operator to keep them inside?

That's what happens in the US, the haven of law-abiding citizens.

Ulysses Gaze

Go with the Japanese prison model

https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-prison-in-japan/

punisher5112

Prison for a lot of these types is the only time they ever have any type of routine in life.


One big issue with prison is it makes some of them quite a lot of money by being in there.

Drugs being number 1 where they can make much more then on the outside.

Workshop jobs and training, working in the kitchen etc etc.

Single cells and tv and computers such as PlayStation Xbox etc.

Phones a plenty also and some bring these and drugs in as paying of their debt and so on.


If you really are interested in what goes on look up the documentary on channel 4 called prison.

Grayson

there's a very long article about viewing crime as a public health issue here.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/24/violent-crime-cured-rather-than-punished-scottish-violence-reduction-unit

I'd recommend reading it. It doesn't eliminate crime but it does help reduce it.

vetinari

It's amazing how so many people don't grasp the idea of treating it as a public health issue.
Mass incarceration is very expensive and doesn't solve crime.

Shenshen

Grayson wrote: »

there's a very long article about viewing crime as a public health issue here.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/24/violent-crime-cured-rather-than-punished-scottish-violence-reduction-unit

I'd recommend reading it. It doesn't eliminate crime but it does help reduce it.

Thanks for sharing that - it is indeed a fascinating read.

Kivaro

vetinari wrote: »

It's amazing how so many people don't grasp the idea of treating it as a public health issue.
Mass incarceration is very expensive and doesn't solve crime.

I also see it a public health issue too ...... but for the victims.
Sick and tired of hearing liberals crying out for more support for criminals. Do you think Traveller gangs who roam the country and terrorise mostly elderly vulnerable victims and many times beat them within a inch of their lives; deserve time in a classroom instead of a prison for their crimes?

You will change your tune when criminality shows up at your doorstep and then your crocodile tears will be replaced by real tears.

Shenshen

Kivaro wrote: »

I also see it a public health issue too ...... but for the victims.
Sick and tired of hearing liberals crying out for more support for criminals. Do you think Traveller gangs who roam the country and terrorise mostly elderly vulnerable victims and many times beat them within a inch of their lives; deserve time in a classroom instead of a prison for their crimes?

You will change your tune when criminality shows up at your doorstep and then your crocodile tears will be replaced by real tears.

I can't help thinking if you cared about the victims, you'd want to make sure they don't become victims in the first place? You genuinely seem more concerned with hurting people back.

Shenshen

Bootlegger wrote: »

The Nordic model? Crime has gone through the roof in Sweden. They have more rapes than any other country in Europe, grenade attacks, ethnic riots, a murder rate similar to ours etc

The softly softly approach does not work.

That claim has been debunked quite a few times already

Sal Butamol

More liberal approach is not the answer to our already liberal system.

Kivaro

Shenshen wrote: »

I can't help thinkingif you cared about the victims, you'd want to make sure they don't become victims in the first place? You genuinely seem more concerned with hurting people back.

So typical of people like you switching the onus of responsibility by trying to imply that I do not care about victims because I am seeking retribution, which I never mentioned. In prison, violent criminals are prevented from carrying out further attacks on society ..... hence it is a preventative measure.

You have obviously never been a victim of serious crime.
This liberal nonsense has no place in the real world. This is the type of crap that is taught in higher-ed institutions by faculty living in a bubble ......... untouched by real victims and their mental and physical pain.

dodzy

31yr old stabs father in throat. Father dies...... Same person stabbed (multiple times) and killed 31yr old outside pub back in 2004. He was 17 at the time. Served 8yrs for that. Rehabilitation worked a treat in this case.

Ipso

Let's say someone is released after multiple violent offenses and I am then their next victim, would I have a case against the prior judges in that they somehow were negligent in their duty of care towards soc?

I like the sound of the curing rather than punishing model and I would be all for it, as long as there is actively some public health work being done for it and not just 'give them more money and be nice'.
That Guardian article was an interesting read

punisher5112

dodzy wrote: »

31yr old stabs father in throat. Father dies...... Same person stabbed (multiple times) and killed 31yr old outside pub back in 2004. He was 17 at the time. Served 8yrs for that. Rehabilitation worked a treat in this case.

Was 6 I believe.

Some son he turned out to be.

He became even harder it seems from being inside where they have way too many rights and let do a lot.

Taytoland

People with so many convictions I'd advocate hanging for such people.

NewbridgeIR

whisky_galore wrote: »

Someone from lower classes gets in trouble - 50+ previous convictions but had a tough childhood in deprived circumstances.

Middle and upper classes - no previous convictions, but comes from a well-respected family.

Someone from lower classes gets in trouble - 50+ previous convictions but had a tough childhood in deprived circumstances. The left stay silent or make excuses.


Middle and upper classes - no previous convictions, but comes from a well-respected family. The left get outraged.

vetinari

Ipso wrote: »

Let's say someone is released after multiple violent offenses and I am then their next victim, would I have a case against the prior judges in that they somehow were negligent in their duty of care towards soc?

This post is just pure stupidity.
If some is not locked up for the rest of their life (as most prisoners won't be) then they will get out of prison at some point.


Are you okay with being someone's next victim as long as they served an extra 5 years in prison? Longer prison sentences do not solve crime.
That should be blindingly obvious.
What about being imprisoned for years and having little job prospects when released says that that person will not re offend?

punisher5112

vetinari wrote: »

This post is just pure stupidity.
If some is not locked up for the rest of their life (as most prisoners won't be) then they will get out of prison at some point.


Are you okay with being someone's next victim as long as they served an extra 5 years in prison? Longer prison sentences do not solve crime.
That should be blindingly obvious.
What about being imprisoned for years and having little job prospects when released says that that person will not re offend?

For the most serious like murder, rape and child abuse and so on they should never be seen outside a wall ever again.

vetinari

NewbridgeIR wrote: »

Someone from lower classes gets in trouble - 50+ previous convictions but had a tough childhood in deprived circumstances. The left stay silent or make excuses.


Middle and upper classes - no previous convictions, but comes from a well-respected family. The left get outraged.

This is an Irish forum btw.
The 2 main parties are center right parties.
"The left" is an American political construct.

Ipso

vetinari wrote: »

This post is just pure stupidity.
If some is not locked up for the rest of their life (as most prisoners won't be) then they will get out of prison at some point.


Are you okay with being someone's next victim as long as they served an extra 5 years in prison? Longer prison sentences do not solve crime.
That should be blindingly obvious.
What about being imprisoned for years and having little job prospects when released says that that person will not re offend?

I'm talking about a serial pest, there are countless examples of scum being given endless chances but they just revert back to being a complete and utter burden on society.
For petty crimes, crimes of opportunity etc I'm all for rehabilitation or whatever works.
if someone deliberately sets out to take or destroy someone's life, then they forego their shot at rehabilitation.
I'm sure you'd offer up your accommodation and spare time in an experiment in rehabilitating someone with a record so long that George RR Martin would have cold sweats.

El_Duderino 09

Kiith wrote: »

Surely consecutive sentencing makes way more sense, and is actually a deterrent for criminals? And do any political parties that actually talk about this, or have some sort of plan to actually clamp down on this sort of ****e?

I just get angry when i read about these people who have absolutely no regard for the law, or for anyone else.

I know this won’t up down well in AH, but the fact is that career criminals don’t have any regard for the law, And they’re not deterred by sentencing. In countries with death sentences there are still career criminals.

vetinari

Not trusting Snopes is tin foil hat territory

Shenshen

Kivaro wrote: »

So typical of people like you switching the onus of responsibility by trying to imply that I do not care about victims because I am seeking retribution, which I never mentioned. In prison, violent criminals are prevented from carrying out further attacks on society ..... hence it is a preventative measure.

You have obviously never been a victim of serious crime.
This liberal nonsense has no place in the real world. This is the type of crap that is taught in higher-ed institutions by faculty living in a bubble ......... untouched by real victims and their mental and physical pain.

And why would you assume that?

As to prevention - the US is currently the country with the highest percentage of its population in prison. And it's still under 1% of their total population. Simultaneously, their violent crime rates are beyond anything we experience here.
So would you say the US are on the right path with imprisoning as many as they can? Would you think they simply haven't imprisoned enough people yet to make their society safe?

Grayson

Bootlegger wrote: »

Yeah Snopes, the totally non biased website that claims the sex attacks in Germany on NYE were false...You're aware that the Swedish establishment does it's best to censor information on rape? I wonder what's that about?

The chief of police felt it necessary to warn women in Malmo not to go out after dark because there were so many gang rapes occurring! Only in Sweden...and shanty towns in S.A.

Not to mention the murder rate, no go ethnic zones, grenade attacks etc. So no, the soft approach does not work.

Back up your claims or stop posting them. Post proper figures that debunk the snopes article. You can't because it's a true article but go ahead and try.

The nordic model, especially in Norway, is based on a simple premise. Pretty much all prisoners will be released at some point. For the time they're in prison you have a chance to make a difference and turn their lives around. We should try and turn them around because if we don't they might commit another crime.
If you can stop a crime before it's happened then you should.

NewbridgeIR

vetinari wrote: »

This is an Irish forum btw.
The 2 main parties are center right parties.
"The left" is an American political construct.

Center is the American spelling.

Grayson

Kivaro wrote: »

So typical of people like you switching the onus of responsibility by trying to imply that I do not care about victims because I am seeking retribution, which I never mentioned. In prison, violent criminals are prevented from carrying out further attacks on society ..... hence it is a preventative measure.

You have obviously never been a victim of serious crime.
This liberal nonsense has no place in the real world. This is the type of crap that is taught in higher-ed institutions by faculty living in a bubble ......... untouched by real victims and their mental and physical pain.

I've posted many times here on boards about how I was jumped by some guys one night. I was bottled on the back of the head and when I fell to the ground I was kicked to bits. I'd prefer not to see that happen to someone else and that means doing everything to prevent it.
The difference between you and me is that you want vengeance and want to see people locked up. I want to see something done that could stop it happening again or even happening in the first place. That means making sure that prisoners get support so they don't resort to crime. If they need treatment and counseling they should get it too. It means community initiatives to engage with them before they commit crimes. It means using a public health model and intervening before things get bad. It means looking at best practice around the world and seeing what really works.
It's not just about punishment and locking them up and forgetting about them.

NewbridgeIR

vetinari wrote: »

This is an Irish forum btw.
The 2 main parties are center right parties.
"The left" is an American political construct.

Yes, FF and FG are centre right but there are other parties and plenty of people who consider themselves as left wing hence my referring to them as "the left". Why deny they exist?

dodzy

Grayson wrote: »

I've posted many times here on boards about how I was jumped by some guys one night. I was bottled on the back of the head and when I fell to the ground I was kicked to bits. I'd prefer not to see that happen to someone else and that means doing everything to prevent it.
The difference between you and me is that you want vengeance and want to see people locked up. I want to see something done that could stop it happening again or even happening in the first place. That means making sure that prisoners get support so they don't resort to crime. If they need treatment and counseling they should get it too. It means community initiatives to engage with them before they commit crimes. It means using a public health model and intervening before things get bad. It means looking at best practice around the world and seeing what really works.
It's not just about punishment and locking them up and forgetting about them.

You're extremely understanding. Hitting another person on the back of the head with a bottle, then kicking them to bits when they are on the ground - and you're looking for a eutopian dreamland. It'll never happen. Castrate them; and let them never mix with public again. For those basket cases, I say f**k rehab.

tom1ie

vetinari wrote: »

This is an Irish forum btw.
The 2 main parties are center right parties.
"The left" is an American political construct.

Centre right? You are joking aren’t you? If they are centre right why do we have a runaway welfare state? Hilarious statement.

Grayson

Bootlegger wrote: »

The Swedes censor their crime stats by hiding ethnicity of criminals. They covered up sex crimes at music festivals so as not to offend migrants. Yes I know they record rape differently but it's hard to have faith in the government when they try to censor the crime figures

They have the police in Malmo warning women not to go out after dark as the threat of gang rape was so great, gang warfare, no go zones, ethnic unrest, grenade attacks(!).

That's how ****ed up your society gets when you go soft on crime

That's a lie. There's no such thing as no go zones. That's been proven here over and over again. There's no threat from gang rape. There were three rapes in the space of a month in Malmo so a single police man said women should walk in pairs at night and then retracted the statement the next day.
As for the grenade attacks, they are bad. But violent crime is on the decrease in Sweden and has been for 40 years. The grenade attacks are common because for years they were deemed a flammable device and so you were actually allowed to bring them into the country (You didn't have to declare them) and the fine for possession was only 500. The type of attacks we see in sweden are similar to the Kinehan/Hutch violence. Drug gangs fighting. Only they have access to grenades. There';s more about it here.
http://www.euronews.com/2018/04/10/sweden-has-a-problem-with-hand-grenades-and-here-s-why

Now if you want a more thorough debunking, search my previous posts for sweden because I'm fed up posting the same crap over and over again and I don't want to see another thread descend into muslim bashing.

Mark25

punisher5112 wrote: »

Prison for a lot of these types is the only time they ever have any type of routine in life.


One big issue with prison is it makes some of them quite a lot of money by being in there.

Drugs being number 1 where they can make much more then on the outside.

Workshop jobs and training, working in the kitchen etc etc.

Single cells and tv and computers such as PlayStation Xbox etc.

Phones a plenty also and some bring these and drugs in as paying of their debt and so on.


If you really are interested in what goes on look up the documentary on channel 4 called prison.

You make it sound alot easier than it is but I see your point

Not proud of it but I have about 30 convictions and been in prison. I gad a good family and started college buy dropped out in first year and the started getting in trouble because of doing stupid stuff when I was drunk and getting into fiights and hanging around with dodgy people and theb got into more trouble. I got fines and then community service, suspended sentence and then 4 months in prison.

I promised my family I would change nut after a few months I was back to the way I was before and back getting into trouble and ended up getting charged with a bad assault and got 2 years for that.

By then I was a bit older and it made me realise I wanted to change things. I think it was a mix of getting a long sentence, seeing my Mam crying when visiting me or trying to explain to my son why I wasnt allowed to go to his birthday party...

I think you have to want to change and I did and you can do courses and get help but ir can be hard whenyou get out

punisher5112

Mark25 wrote: »

You make it sound alot easier than it is but I see your point

Not proud of it but I have about 30 convictions and been in prison. I gad a good family and started college buy dropped out in first year and the started getting in trouble because of doing stupid stuff when I was drunk and getting into fiights and hanging around with dodgy people and theb got into more trouble. I got fines and then community service, suspended sentence and then 4 months in prison.

I promised my family I would change nut after a few months I was back to the way I was before and back getting into trouble and ended up getting charged with a bad assault and got 2 years for that.

By then I was a bit older and it made me realise I wanted to change things. I think it was a mix of getting a long sentence, seeing my Mam crying when visiting me or trying to explain to my son why I wasnt allowed to go to his birthday party...

I think you have to want to change and I did and you can do courses and get help but ir can be hard whenyou get out

I didn't mean it to sound easy but I do believe it is easy to get away with too much even inside.

Fair play for getting on top of it and changing your life for the better.

I try to see as much from both sides but some will never change unfortunately.

vetinari

tom1ie wrote: »

Centre right? You are joking aren’t you? If they are centre right why do we have a runaway welfare state? Hilarious statement.

Because we don't have a far right government?
Fine Gael and Fianna Fail have been identifying as center right parties for the entire history of the state. There's no true left of center party in the US. The Democrats would be a center right party in Europe.


There's a bit of internet keyboard warrior to some of the posts.
None of the people here would tell someone to their face that they're scum or that they should have been castrated for a previous assault conviction.

Grayson

dodzy wrote: »

You're extremely understanding. Hitting another person on the back of the head with a bottle, then kicking them to bits when they are on the ground - and you're looking for a eutopian dreamland. It'll never happen. Castrate them; and let them never mix with public again. For those basket cases, I say f**k rehab.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like I'd hug the cnuts who did it to me. I just realise that there's many ways to approach crime prevention. And we can't lock up every offender for ever so we should do something to stop it happening again.

The problem is that the focus is on punishment or rehabilitation. It's one or the other. All these debates bring up the same attitudes. That punishment is not an effective deterrent, and so we must look to rehab, but then someone points to the lack of effectiveness of rehab and looks to greater punishments.

The two areas need to work hand in hand, along with realistic measures for those who have been received rehab to be reintroduced into society away from their past environment. If someone commits crime, is rehabilitated, and the returns to hanging out with friends/family who don't have respect for the law, they're highly likely to commit crime again. Just as those who leave prison with the aim of starting a decent life, find there's no real work for past offenders, and resorts to crime again because there are few choices out there. There is a tendency to continue punishing past offenders even after they've served their time.

Deterrent is important because it does have an influence over 90% of the population (yes, BS statistic). The threat of punishment, loss of personal freedoms, and the stigma associated does reduce crime levels because most people don't want their lives to be affected by it. For those who don't fear the punishments involved, there is the option of greater punishments being introduced, and that should definitely be considered since it will affect some people.

This attitude of dismissing the effectiveness of punishment is short sighted. It does have an effect. However, at the same time, we need to be introducing better means of rehabilitation, education, and providing meaningful options for work to released offenders so that they're not tempted into re-offending. Having decent work available with reasonable salaries with the potential towards improvement/promotion.... but in hand with this, is the prevention of them returning to live in their past areas or the prevention of them associating with others of their family or socio-economic groups because of the very real influence that has over them. For example, Travellers who have been convicted, and punished for the crimes, should not be allowed to return to their camps, or associate with other travellers until a period of time has passed, or that they've passed milestones regarding jobs/performance.

But this won't happen.The liberals will complain, saying we can't restrict Travellers or past criminals, and yet, isn't that what prison sentencing does? It won't matter though. Short term resolutions are the only answer and they can't step on anyones feelings.

Lastly... Referring to the US justice system, and comparing it with Ireland/Europe is retarded. The US has a far different history, series of culture, including gang systems which Europe has never experienced. IF we don't step in and seek to diminish our crime here now, then we will see it happening here. I was shocked when I returned to Ireland last year [after years living in Asia] at the amount of Violent or Gun related crime happening both in Ireland and the rest of Europe, and the rather lackluster attempts to minimize it. The justice system in the States has consistently failed, but that doesn't mean that implementing some measures here would also be guaranteed to fail. Our culture is incredibly different to the US, and anyone who doesn't see that, really should spend some extensive time actually over there speaking to people.

tom1ie

vetinari wrote: »

Because we don't have a far right government?
Fine Gael and Fianna Fail have been identifying as center right parties for the entire history of the state. There's no true left of center party in the US. The Democrats would be a center right party in Europe.


There's a bit of internet keyboard warrior to some of the posts.
None of the people here would tell someone to their face that they're scum or that they should have been castrated for a previous assault conviction.

No I’m not advocating a far right government not at all, but how can fg or ff be called a centre right government when you have the current welfare system, with high state pensions high jsa and high amounts of numbers on disability benefit, all funded by the working person?