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The final journey
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20-08-2018 3:29pm#1Although Dalton understood clearly why he was doing it the tears of love for his lamb Beans rolled down his face as he led the animal into a truck for its final journey.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/discover/tears-as-young-boy-says-goodbye-to-slaughter-bound-lamb-he-reared-863308.html
Sad for the kid.2
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The kid knew what he was getting into when he decided to start the project. It's not like he was given a sheep and not told what was going to happen until the lamb was ripped bleating from his arms. Fair play to those parents, that is a child who knows where his food comes from and has respect for it.0 -
Lady Haywire wrote: »The kid knew what he was getting into when he decided to start the project. It's not like he was given a sheep and not told what was going to happen until the lamb was ripped bleating from his arms. Fair play to those parents, that is a child who knows where his food comes from and has respect for it.
No doubt he was told the following.
"You need meat to grow and become a big strong boy."
So in his mind he probably believes that there is no other way. Given the right information and an actual choice I very much doubt he would have led Beans to be slaughtered.0 -
No doubt he was told the following.
"You need meat to grow and become a big strong boy."
So in his mind he probably believes that there is no other way. Given the right information and an actual choice I very much doubt he would have led Beans to be slaughtered.
You are assuming. It's difficult in this day & age to tell kids things and have them believe it. I grew up learning exactly where my burger or chicken came from and I wouldn't change it. Just because you believe in something yourself, doesn't mean others have the same way of thinking.0 -
No doubt he was told the following.
"You need meat to grow and become a big strong boy."
So in his mind he probably believes that there is no other way. Given the right information and an actual choice I very much doubt he would have led Beans to be slaughtered.
No he was told the truth. It appears that the kid knows what happens with regard to farm animals. It doesn't mean the lad has no feelings.
It's unfortunate that many do not recognise that - all forms of food production involve death. Every acre of wheat, vegetables or legumes require that animals and organisms die.0 -
No he was told the truth. It appears that the kid knows what happens with regard to farm animals. It doesn't mean the lad has no feelings.
It's unfortunate that many do not recognise that - all forms of food production involve death. Every acre of wheat, vegetables or legumes require that animals and organisms die.
But not all forms of food production sets out with the objective of killing a conscious life form at the end.0 -
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But not all forms of food production sets out with the objective of killing a conscious life form at the end.
The point is that all food production involves the death of a wide range of animals and organisms. It is a fact that this is inevitable - so yes the objective is there whether some people choose to acknowledge it or otherwise.0 -
The point is that all food production involves the death of a wide range of animals and organisms. It is a fact that this is inevitable - so yes the objective is there whether some people choose to acknowledge it or otherwise.
If you could choose between
(a) More death
(b) Less death
And arrive at the same outcome, which would you choose?0 -
If you could choose between
(a) More death
(b) Less death
And arrive at the same outcome, which would you choose?
And how exactly do you quantify which individual choices cause more or less death?
How do you weigh the value of an endangered species wiped out by cultivation against the slaughter of a farmed animal?
Do you hold that wild animals and organisms are of a lesser value than those under the care of humans?
What of the consequential destruction of habitats caused duting tillage and harvesting?
Food production is not a linear calculation and never will be.
The important thing to acknowledge is that all food production arable, horticultural and annimal results in death. Not to point fingers and ignore what is convenient to ignore.
There are myriad of ways of killing animals without even touching them.0 -
And how exactly do you quantify which individual choices cause more or less death?
How do you weigh the value of an endangered species wiped out by cultivation against the slaughter of a farmed animal?
Do you hold that wild animals and organisms are of a lesser value than those under the care of humans?
What of the consequential destruction of habitats caused duting tillage and harvesting?
Food production is not a linear calculation and never will be.
The important thing to acknowledge is that all food production arable, horticultural and annimal results in death. Not to point fingers and ignore what is convenient to ignore.
There are myriad of ways of killing animals without even touching them.
Not ignoring it, and you failed to answer a simple question, which says it all.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/241746569_We_Already_Grow_Enough_Food_for_10_Billion_People_and_Still_Can't_End_Hunger
Veganism is about reducing harm as much as practical. We on this planet already grow enough food to feed the planet. The meat industry is simply unnecessary.0 -
Was it really necessary to put a kid through that, knowing exactly what the outcome was going to be? I don't subscribe to the BS that it will toughen him up.0 -
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Not ignoring it, and you failed to answer a simple question, which says it all https://www.researchgate.net/publication/241746569_We_Already_Grow_Enough_Food_for_10_Billion_People_and_Still_Can't_End_Hunger Veganism is about reducing harm as much as practical. We on this planet already grow enough food to feed the planet. The meat industry is simply unnecessary.
Yes I answered that directly and asked how is it possible to calculate something which is not a simple linear equation!
I see that you fail to grasp the point that one way or another death is a fact of life. The much repeated 'aim' of veganism matters little when faced with the reality of food production and the its consequences ignored by that 'aim'.
Of note - First yes, there is enough food to feed everyone on the planet. Then why do some people suffer hunger? The answer is poverty caused by greed and corruption often in the very countries where hunger is evident.
To repeat humans eat crops and meat and farm animals are fed the by products and waste from crops and also eat that which cannot be eaten by humans are all part of that equation. Animal agriculture is an integral part of all food production - from using animal based organic matter to replenish the fertility of Soil in which crops are grown - to utilising the vast amounts of waste products left over after human food is processed from the edible portions of those crops which are fed to farm animals.
All forms if agriculture - arable, horticutual and animal work together to feed humanity and to use what is produced in the most efficient manner. Ignoring this because you dont like meat is illogical.
The logic that killing and / or depriving animals of their own foods and ecosystems and habitats is ok but killing them to eat is cruel makes no sense whatsover.
Perhaps you would be good enough to put some effort at answering the questions I asked in my previous reply rather than using rather meaningless comments such as that 'which says it all" (sic)0 -
Yes I answered that directly and asked how is it possible to calculate something which is not a simple linear equation!
I see that you fail to grasp the point that one way or another death is a fact of life. The much repeated 'aim' of veganism matters little when faced with the reality of food production and the its consequences ignored by that 'aim'.
Of note - First yes, there is enough food to feed everyone on the planet. Then why do some people suffer hunger? The answer is poverty caused by greed and corruption often in the very countries where hunger is evident.
To repeat humans eat crops and meat and farm animals are fed the by products and waste products of crops and also eat that which cannot be eaten by humans are all part of that equation. Animal agriculture is an integral part of all food production - from using animal based organic matter to replenish the fertility of Soil in which crops are grown - to utilising the vast amounts of waste products left over after human food is processed from the edible portions of those crops which are fed to farm animals.
All forms if agriculture - arable, horticutual and animal work together to feed humanity and to use what is produced in the most efficient manner. Ignoring this because you dont like meat is illogical.
The logic that killing and / or depriving animals of their own foods and ecosystems and habitats is ok but killing them to eat is cruel makes no sense whatsover.
Perhaps you would be good enough to put some effort at answering the questions I asked in my previous reply rather than using rather meaningless comments such as that 'which says it all" (sic)
More death or less death. You literally did not give me a straight answer. This is what you do, you dance around the facts with useless ramblings and inconsistent comparisons.
I'm vegan, so I'm for less death and less suffering, always. It's not one thing or another. I'm for getting rid of animal agriculture altogether. I'm for researching methods of arables farming which reduce harm to wild creatures.
Yes the poverty and hunger is caused by greed. Honestly I feel you need to think about it some more because you're already half way to the answer. Meat is expensive and takes away from our ability to grow more food for human consumption. More food equals lower prices for all.
Animal agriculture is horribly ineffient in land use, water consumption and food consumption. It's horribly damaging to the environment, including the soil, water and air. There are green fertilizers you can read up on but you're so terribly stuck in your ways you probably don't realise there's any other way to do things than how it's done right now.
You don't seem to realise that most of my life I loved eating many meat products. Going vegan was the most logical thing I've done in my life and I'm deeply sorry that I didn't do it sooner. When you know the truth about the harm you are doing to animals and your fellow humans, there's no way you could live any other way. It's difficult to shake beliefs you've had your whole life, and you'll argue with strangers on the internet to justify your life, but you don't need to. It's a great sign of maturity to even consider that you may be wrong, and research the facts to come to a proper conclusion. I do it all the time.0 -
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. This is what you do, you dance around the facts with useless ramblings and inconsistent comparisons.More death or less death. You literally did not give me a straight answer
I'm vegan, so I'm for less death and less suffering, always. It's not one thing or another. I'm for getting rid of animal agriculture altogether. I'm for researching methods of arables farming which reduce harm to wild creatures.Yes the poverty and hunger is caused by greed. Honestly I feel you need to think about it some more because you're already half way to the answer. Meat is expensive and takes away from our ability to grow more food for human consumption. More food equals lower prices for all.Animal agriculture is horribly ineffient in land use, water consumption and food consumption. It's horribly damaging to the environment, including the soil, water and air. There are green fertilizers you can read up on but you're so terribly stuck in your ways you probably don't realise there's any other way to do things than how it's done right now. You don't seem to realise that most of my life I loved eating many meat products. Going vegan was the most logical thing I've done in my life and I'm deeply sorry that I didn't do it sooner. When you know the truth about the harm you are doing to animals and your fellow humans, there's no way you could live any other way. It's difficult to shake beliefs you've had your whole life, and you'll argue with strangers on the internet to justify your life, but you don't need to. It's a great sign of maturity to even consider that you may be wrong, and research the facts to come to a proper conclusion. I do it all the time.
Less ad hominem would be a good start. My answer to you eathrin - because that question does not have a 'straight answer'
The simplification of such arguments in that way - is at best a reduction to absurdity. Berating posters because they will not enter into such a stupid discusion is nothing short of gratutious verbal bashing.
All things die. It's part of life and is one if the most basic laws of entrophy. If you don't acknowledge that - Im sorry but I can't help you.
I note from previous comments not that long ago you stated you were not vegan. I can only presume that such evangelical zeal commentry above is the outcome of the newly converted. Much of what you have posted also appears to be direct copies of much repeated hype from various vegan vloggers and websites and make no sense whatsover and do Not stand up to scrutiny.
I know about agriculture and fertilisers both organic and inorganic. I knew about green manure and the nitrogen cycle and how all types of Agriculture are intrinsically linked. I know about and have years of practical experience of the growing of vegetables and crops and the care and management of livestock. I know and acknowledge that all forms of food production are damaging to the environment. I know about the need for change and innovation. I knew what is reality and what is pie in the sky imaginings. I also know bs when I see it and am not afraid to point that out either. I
Posing a complex area as a black or white argunent is a fallacy of false argument at best and fails to address the issues convened completly. Repeating vacous slogans such as the one about no harm is as about as useful to discussion as a chocolate teapot is to having breakfast!!0 -
Yes violence is inevitable, so is death. But it is about the degree of violence used.The point is that all food production involves the death of a wide range of animals and organisms. It is a fact that this is inevitable - so yes the objective is there whether some people choose to acknowledge it or otherwise.
You do understand the difference between killing a microbe, single cell organism, a plant, simple multicellular organism with no central nervous system, an insect, a small invertebrate with very simple nervous system or a mammal, a complex organism with a complex central nervous system?
The difference is in degree of suffering caused which is essentially a function of central nervous system complexity.
Lamb cries while being killed, a potato does not and cannot!0 -
Lady Haywire wrote: »You are assuming. It's difficult in this day & age to tell kids things and have them believe it. I grew up learning exactly where my burger or chicken came from and I wouldn't change it. Just because you believe in something yourself, doesn't mean others have the same way of thinking.
We all knew where meat came from but the level of detachment between the animal and what was on our plates coupled with the "you need meat/dairy and eggs to be healthy." meant as children we just accepted it. We then grew into adults conditioned to believe it was normal and essential.
What goes on to support this industry is cruel and unnecessary and completely unsustainable.0 -
Yes violence is inevitable, so is death. But it is about the degree of violence used. You do understand the difference between killing a microbe, single cell organism, a plant, simple multicellular organism with no central nervous system, an insect, a small invertebrate with very simple nervous system or a mammal, a complex organism with a complex central nervous system?
The difference is in degree of suffering caused which is essentially a function of central nervous system complexity.
Lamb cries while being killed, a potato does not and cannot!
If you somehow believe that only "microorganisms and invertebrates" are killed in arable and other non animal food production you are unfortunately much misinformed ...Are animals killed in the process of farming vegan foods? Is it possible for a vegan to ensure that no animals were harmed in the production of their food without growing it themselves?
Charlie Knoles, Vegan with B. science in biology and agriculture.
Updated Dec 30, 2015 · Author has 543answers and 4.9m answer views
A lot of animals are killed in all kinds of agriculture. I'll never forget the first time I saw a combine harvester go through an organic soybean field and kill all the animals that had made that field their home. Among the many animals that died that day were baby bunnies that were skinned by the blades and were then eaten alive by hawks. The hawks followed the harvester through the field looking for an easy meal. I knew that the farmer had contracted his crop to an organic tofu company and that most of the people eating this food would be vegans and vegetarians. The irony of this situation was enough to stop me from going vegan for many years afterwards. I would frequently bring up this anecdote when I would argue with vegan friends. It still annoys me when my fellow vegans act as though their lifestyle is 100% cruelty free and that no animals die in the process of making their food. It speaks to an ignorance of the realities of farming and rural life.
https://www.quora.com/Are-animals-killed-in-the-process-of-farming-vegan-foods-Is-it-possible-for-a-vegan-to-ensure-that-no-animals-were-harmed-in-the-production-of-their-food-without-growing-it-themselves
Is that violent enough for you? The above describes US food production - however the detail of the death, destruction and violence caused by such production which she describes is global ...
I'm fairly sure those bunnies also 'cried' ....0 -
If you somehow believe that only "microorganisms and invertebrates" are killed in arable and other non animal food production you are unfortunately much misinformed ...
https://www.quora.com/Are-animals-killed-in-the-process-of-farming-vegan-foods-Is-it-possible-for-a-vegan-to-ensure-that-no-animals-were-harmed-in-the-production-of-their-food-without-growing-it-themselves
The above describes US food production - however the detail of the death and destruction caused by such production which she describes is global ...
I'm fairly sure those bunnies also 'cry' ....
The difference is one farming method sets out to kill and exploit animals. The other doesn't.
In a field of cattle being raised for slaughter a farmer will make sure to herd every last one into the truck.
In a field of soya beans the harvester will finish when the beans are collected. It won't be aimed at remaining wild life.
One is direct and intended. One is indirect and not intended.0 -
The difference is one farming method sets out to kill and exploit animals. The other doesn't.
In a field of cattle being raised for slaughter a farmer will make sure to herd every last one into the truck.
In a field of soya beans the harvester will finish when the beans are collected. It won't be aimed at remaining wild life.
One is direct and intended. One is indirect and not intended.
So your logic is that an animal killed by accident is less dead?
:rolleyes:0 -
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We all knew where meat came from but the level of detachment between the animal and what was on our plates coupled with the "you need meat/dairy and eggs to be healthy." meant as children we just accepted it. We then grew into adults conditioned to believe it was normal and essential.
What goes on to support this industry is cruel and unnecessary and completely unsustainable.
The modern age means that these days kids know exactly what being a vegetarian/vegan is. So I don't agree that the same 'conditioning' exists with kids today. That boy is raised on a smallholding, which means he has seen births & deaths and hardships with farming. As smallholders I'm sure they produce lots of veg too, don't get me wrong. The article itself states that this as the first time they kept sheep.His parents made it clear to him the lambs would possibly end up being sold at the Douglas County Fair.
This is what i'm going to reiterate. He was told from the start what could happen & yet he still wanted to do it. So this boy, at 8, made the decision himself & saw it out, he knew the odds and still took them. Do you not believe that if you're eating meat, it's best to give them a good life beforehand & have respect for them? I know your answer is going to be 'don't eat meat at all' but that is not a feasible possibility for the world right now.0 -
Okay so then tell me how it's better for a bunny to accidentally be shredded by a combine harvester than for a cow to be purposely to be stunned and killed?
Cause that's what you're somehow implying no?
Humans don't need to raise animals for the sole purpose of slaughter and exploitation.
Land Animal Agriculture = ~70 billion animals are directly killed each year + animals indirectly killed / displaced for rearing cattle.
Arable Agriculture = Animals indirectly killed / displaced for cultivation.
There is no form of modern agriculture that will not indirectly kill animals but in my opinion doing the least amount of harm; reducing unnecessary suffering is more ethical and sustainable.0 -
The difference is one farming method sets out to kill and exploit animals. The other doesn't. In a field of cattle being raised for slaughter a farmer will make sure to herd every last one into the truck.
In a field of soya beans the harvester will finish when the beans are collected. It won't be aimed at remaining wild life. One is direct and intended. One is indirect and not intended.
That is irrelevant to the point being made in reply to previous comments - in that all food systems result in 'death' and destruction and what another poster defined as 'violence' . Unfortunately this is ignored by many adherents to the belief that only animal farming is 'bad' ...0 -
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That is irrelevant to the point being made in reply to previous comments - in that all food systems result in 'death' and destruction and what another poster defined as 'violence . Unfortunately this is ignored by many adherents to the belief that only animal farming is 'bad' ...
All farming has indirect consequences to animals and anyone who debates that is not helping to progress veganism. Even the lad growing his own spuds can kill a worm or two and as a previous post highlighted industrial scale arable farming can indirectly kill.
The definition of a vegan doesn't say "no animals should die" it saysVeganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.0 -
All farming has indirect consequences to animals and anyone who debates that is not helping to progress veganism. Even the lad growing his own spuds can kill a worm or two and as a previous post highlighted industrial scale arable farming can indirectly kill.
The definition of a vegan doesn't say "no animals should die" it says
Which renders the conclusions of the discussion to just two points
That firstly all food production systems involve not just death but also destruction and (as added by another poster) inherent violence. Animals also die and suffer unnecessarily as part of vegan food production. If veganism wishes to convince the world of its bona fides then it needs to address this problem before preaching to others.
Secondly that the definition of veganism doesn't say 'no animals should die' is a convenient get out jail free card for vegans in that the criticicism that animals die is levelled at conventional food production at every opportunity.
The quoting of a what is in effect a vegan jingle, which bears absolutly no relation to the reality of the production and consequences of vegan foodstuffs is therefore pointless imo.0 -
Which renders the conclusions of the discussion to just two points
That firstly all food production systems involve not just death but also destruction and (as added by another poster) inherent violence. Animals also die and suffer unnecessarily as part of vegan food production. If veganism wishes to convince the world of its bona fides then it needs to address this problem before preaching to others.
Secondly that the definition of veganism doesn't say 'no animals should die' is a convenient get out jail free card for vegans in that the criticicism that animals die is levelled at conventional food production at every opportunity.
The quoting of a what is in effect a vegan jingle, which bears absolutly no relation to the reality of the production and consequences of vegan foodstuffs is therefore pointless imo.
The definition of violence is intention to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something. There is no intention in arable farming to hurt or kill any animal. Granted it happens, frequently but there is no intent. So in my mind there is a big distinction we set out with the intention each year to kill 70 billion animals0 -
The definition of violence is intention to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something. There is no intention in arable farming to hurt or kill any animal. Granted it happens, frequently but there is no intent. So in my mind there is a big distinction we set out with the intention each year to kill 70 billion animals
This from the Online dictionaryviolence
behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
"violence erupted in protest marches"
It is also true that violence does not have to be premeditated or otherwise - it is a possible consequence of any act causing harm. Ergo harvesting a field where it is known there are lots of bunnies and other animals and which causes death and destruction can be said to be violent. The skinning alive of bunnies and subsequent predation by raptors is by any descriptor - a violent death.
On the other hand in animal agriculture here we have humane slaughter - where such suffering is minimised within a controled environment. Do you really think that these bunnies fare better because their slaughter was unintentional?
The use of hyperbole such as "set out with the intention each year to kill 70 billion animals" is also an absurd use of words.
Animals are farmed and yes are slaughtered as part of the process of farming. Animals die for the purpose of directly providing food for people something that cannot be claimed for the billions of bunnies, and other animals & organisms slaughtered in the process of the type of food production that many vegans ironically support as acceptable ....0 -
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Can I get a link on those billions of bunny deaths per year?
This study from 1993 found that only 1 out of 33 mice used in a study were killed by combine harvester over 4 separate sites. It also asserts that the lack of woodland caused by animal agriculture, being 16 times less land efficient, is the reason most are in the fields in the first place.
https://ac.els-cdn.com/000632079390060E/1-s2.0-000632079390060E-main.pdf?_tid=57ae6d38-80c3-4098-8ce1-10fa7716a812&acdnat=1534873242_9d41cb2dfa853c5fc87c975ec0ecea490
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