Downside of social welfare

Sweet.Science

Got caught up in a thread about our welfare state and how appealing it can be.

Was just wondering what the downsides of being stuck in the welfare system would be ?

Trying to bring a bit of balance


* By welfare i mean rent assistance,council house,medical card etc

PlaneSpeeking

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Got caught up in a thread about our welfare state and how appealing it can be.

Was just wondering what the downsides of being stuck in the welfare system would be ?

Trying to bring a bit of balance

Having a good job and then losing it - you soon find there's nothing in the way of help but basic dole.

Sonics2k

I was on the dole a few years after the recession.

I went from having a pretty well paid and comfortable job, was able to easily pay my bills and rent and raise my kids.

Recession happened, lost my job, partner eventually left me due to a mixture of stress and being a cheating twat, took the kids to the other side of the country.

Bills piled up, I had to move back into the family home until I was finally able to find a stable job and get a new apartment.

People love to go on and on about the 'easy life' on the dole, but after bills and so on I had about €15 a week so it was impossible to save up any sort of cash to move out.

RobbieTheRobber

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Got caught up in a thread about our welfare state and how appealing it can be.

Was just wondering what the downsides of being stuck in the welfare system would be ?

Trying to bring a bit of balance

What do you mean the by "the welfare system"?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/social_welfare_system_in_ireland.html

The downside is that it can reduce the motivation for some people to better themselves. Also, the chances of increasing levels of alcoholism and drug dependency is greater where there is a generous welfare system.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Anyone on an old-age pension is "stuck in the welfare system." Anyone getting child benefit is "stuck in the welfare system."

I think around half the population is getting some kind of payment. You need to be more specific, OP.

Richard Hillman

It's a bit like taking an animal from the wild and putting them in a zoo. The original animal can be returned to the wild as it still has its hunting instincts, wheas if they have cub's, the cubs will be waited on hand and foot, fed, kept safe etc. They have a chance as they can be thought by their parents but a lesser chance. Generations down the line, they have no chance of providing for themselves, they've never been thought how. Their parents don't know how. They've become institutionalized into the zoo.

Sweet.Science

Sonics2k wrote: »

I was on the dole a few years after the recession.

I went from having a pretty well paid and comfortable job, was able to easily pay my bills and rent and raise my kids.

Recession happened, lost my job, partner eventually left me due to a mixture of stress and being a cheating twat, took the kids to the other side of the country.

Bills piled up, I had to move back into the family home until I was finally able to find a stable job and get a new apartment.

People love to go on and on about the 'easy life' on the dole, but after bills and so on I had about €15 a week so it was impossible to save up any sort of cash to move out.

Sorry to hear that . Good to see you are back on your feet

SomeSayKos

Lost my job when the recession hit and subsequently went on the dole. The seemingly impossible task of finding a job back then made me less and less motivated to the point where i developed a general anxiety disorder and bouts of depression. Luckily now that's behind me and I'm fully employed but there was a few dark years back then. I'll never forget when a welfare agent came to assess my home for rent allowance and before he left the house he looked me in the eye and said " welfare is a trap. for your own sake do whatever you can to get out of it as soon as possible".

Mrs OBumble

No promotions.

Your only hope of doing better is a benefit increase - and that will usually only match inflation.

WildCardDoW

Deleted User wrote: »

The downside is that it can reduce the motivation for some people to better themselves. Also, the chances of increasing levels of alcoholism and drug dependency is greater where there is a generous welfare system.

Too much time.

People do seem to not realise that it's quite easy to become demotivated and apathetic when on the dole for an extended period (or even depressed). Experienced it myself while working part time directly after college and strugling to get interviews, some mates had it worse (I feel) that had left their part time jobs to concentrate on college / exams etc.

frosty123

you get lazy, and you're brain turns to mush

but....then again its nice to have a lie in on wet miserable mornings

.......

Depends on what kind of life you want to live.

I want to go on nice holidays, have a comfortable life, buy nice things, live in a nice home etc...

It just wouldnt suit me.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

The "easy life" aspect is aimed at those who rarely or never worked and have everything paid for, health, home, heating, some money in their accounts and are very happy in that situation. It's easy to do f all and get paid a very generous amount.

It's not easy to come from a full time job and being very comfortable financially, to getting a miserable 200 per week and a medical card. The vast majority of people in that situation find if very difficult and the system is incredibly unfair. You should receive a % of your wages for 3-6 months, and then get the bare minimum. Those who don't want to work at all? Let them rot, they are a cancer on society.

Omackeral

Depending on your attitude towards working, it can make your self confidence and feeling of worth plummet.

SomeSayKos

frosty123 wrote: »

you get lazy, and you're brain turns to mush

Exactly!

Edgware

Sonics2k wrote: »

I was on the dole a few years after the recession.

I went from having a pretty well paid and comfortable job, was able to easily pay my bills and rent and raise my kids.

Recession happened, lost my job, partner eventually left me due to a mixture of stress and being a cheating twat, took the kids to the other side of the country.

Bills piled up, I had to move back into the family home until I was finally able to find a stable job and get a new apartment.

People love to go on and on about the 'easy life' on the dole, but after bills and so on I had about €15 a week so it was impossible to save up any sort of cash to move out.

You didn't choose it as a lifestyle but there are thousands who are happy to do so

Sonics2k

Edgware wrote: »

You didn't choose it as a lifestyle but there are thousands who are happy to do so

I'd safely say the vast majority of people on the dole do not want to be on the dole. There are absolutely a lot of scroungers out there, and I despise their attitude.

Quite often though, you'll find this as a learned attitude. Often coming from a background that promotes and enjoys the concept of the free ride through life.

What I can say is that when I was out of work during the recession it was absolutely soul crushing. Most jobs going at the time were temporary or 0 hour contracts and no real security. I took up a few but they often ended in a week or two, and then I had to go through the hassle of signing back on.

There is a big attitude in Ireland that being on the dole = scrounger, even when we don't know the context or reason for it.

Sleepy

It depends hugely on circumstances before you end up on it.

If you've never worked and have been give the council house, the medical card, the fuel allowance, the back-to-school allowance and the christmas bonus for the long-term unemployed and know how to play your local CWO, you're on the pigs back.

If you're renting privately or have a mortgage and lose a good job to end up on the basic job-seekers benefit without any of the add-ons that you're not entitled to until you've spent a year or more on welfare, it's a miserable existence.

It's probably tolerable enough if you're a young person still living in Mammy and Daddys and without any real responsibilities.

bear1

I went on the dole as well when the recession it.
Think I got something like 366e a week.. there abouts anyway.
I hated it. I couldn't stand the weekly trip to the post office and standing in line to get the payment.
It was demeaning and I desperately wanted to work again but there was either nothing that met their expectations or there just wasnt anything.
I was on it for about 8 months until I finally started to go back to normality.
I told no one I was on it, I was embarrassed and ashamed I had been reduced to it.
That's the downside for me.

valoren

A downside for child benefit is that it invariably is not used for the child's benefit. It can become an additional income for those making ends meet as is.

Sweet.Science

Sleepy wrote: »

It depends hugely on circumstances before you end up on it.

If you've never worked and have been give the council house, the medical card, the fuel allowance, the back-to-school allowance and the christmas bonus for the long-term unemployed and know how to play your local CWO, you're on the pigs back.

If you're renting privately or have a mortgage and lose a good job to end up on the basic job-seekers benefit without any of the add-ons that you're not entitled to until you've spent a year or more on welfare, it's a miserable existence.

That what i mean . Your 1st instance, is there a downside ?

Rhyme

What struck me when I was on the dole for a few months (between jobs, moved back home while looking) was that everything I could afford with the handouts was someone elses money. I personally found it intolerable that for every bus ticket, every shirt and tie bought for an interview, for everything, I was putting my hand into other peoples pockets. I wasn't buying that train ticket, someone else was paying for it. Did voluntary work so I at least felt like I was earning my keep and eventually got a proper job. Am now married, have a career and got very lucky in house-hunting.

Looking back now I understand that I was misguided. That the doles purpose was to pay for those tickets and interview clothes. The dole is the means to get a job.

I find the prospect of living on the dole an extremely sad one. Your mind turns to mush and your thoughts twist in on themselves so you're either convinced that things are fine or you've got one over on the Government and aren't you awful smart. I would imagine that a good amount of the people who queued up with me to collect their dole are in this life and will never work again.

Sleepy

Sweet.Science wrote: »

That what i mean . Your 1st instance, is there a downside ?

Your children are unlikely to ever have a better existence and are far more likely to end up with drink/drug problems, teenage pregnancies or end up incarcerated.

Yer Da sells Avon

The hours were great, but the pay was shite.

The department of social protection is preoccupied with massaging the figures and getting people off their books and onto schemes like Turas Nua, Tús, etc, thus giving the impression that our unemployment rates are lower than they truly are. Which makes the job-seeking process particularly soul-destroying. The days of getting a perfunctory response to a job application appear to be over. Took me three months and hundreds of CVs before I found anything. And I had savings, so I was very fortunate. With interviews, etc, I was spending a lot more than €193 per week.

GreeBo

I think you need to differentiate between ending up on social welfare and starting out on social welfare.

Ending up on it is the upside, thats what its there for, to help you out when things go wrong.

Starting out on it is the downside, its what causes people to become entitled and not want to work.

smileyj1987

Been on it for 9 months myself and it was killer , the lack of motivation and all that goes along with having no money really had me lost for a few of those months. I hope to never end up in that position , but it did bring one positive it made me go back to college and get an Honours Degree in IT management.

El Weirdo

Downside? How about the constant dole-bashing threads in AH where people seem unable to distinguish between the vast majority of recipients who actually don't want to be in that position, and the reletively tiny minority who make it a lifestyle choice? That was definitely one.

nothing

Society constantly looking down on you, regardless of what benefits you claim - being on disability but being tarred as the same small percentage of scroungers there are. Having to carefully budget for everything, try to save tiny amounts all year to ensure you don't come off as cheap at Christmas/birthdays/weddings etc. Making sure you don't end up in debt when you just want to do normal stuff like one weekend away in a year, or buying decent shoes/coat, or if the washing machine breaks. Trying not to end up in a crap sleep pattern which can impact on illness, motivation, routine. Trying to have a social life (not even drinking, just meeting friends for lunch or coffee) without having to turn down so many invites that they stop coming.

This is while being on disability, having a medical card, a travel pass, renting from council, getting household benefits, so deemed as a proper sponger. No fancy car, no holidays even in Ireland (unless visiting a grandparent for a few days counts), no alcohol, no smoking, no kids. It's a struggle to stay out of debt. It's not living, it's surviving.

Anyone who thinks those on the dole have some kind of easy life, have never looked closely at what it's really like long term, or the crippling debt it can easily lead to.

It erodes the soul.

Muahahaha

Rhyme wrote: »

What struck me when I was on the dole for a few months (between jobs, moved back home while looking) was that everything I could afford with the handouts was someone elses money.

You paid PRSI and income tax when working which goes towards paying the welfare budget, if you pay into the system and fall on hard times then youve no need to feel guilty.

El Weirdo wrote: »

Downside? How about the constant dole-bashing threads in AH where people seem unable to distinguish between the vast majority of recipients who actually don't want to be in that position, and the reletively tiny minority who make it a lifestyle choice? That was definitely one.

The dole bashing threads on here during the recession were awful. I felt sorry for those reading them who were on the dole genuinely looking for work. It was like further kick in the guts to be labelled as dole scroungers when they just wanted to work. But the reactionary right on After Hours will always find a way to kick a man while he is down.

laugh

In Germany if you go from working to unemployed you get 65% or more of your after tax pay for a while.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Sonics2k wrote: »

I'd safely say the vast majority of people on the dole do not want to be on the dole.

I think that was the case in 2010 ... but in 2018 it's a harder statement to back up?

The recession is long over. Ireland is the fastest growing economy in Europe for the fourth year in a row. There are plenty of jobs in the country now. Loads of shops, restaurants, etc., with help wanted signs up. There's a severe staff shortage in hotels. And yet there are still about 225,000 people on the Live Register.

I think it's more accurate to say that the vast majority of people on the dole today could find work if they genuinely wanted it. Finding a job during the recession was one thing, but this number of people on the Live Register is harder to justify when the country grew by nearly 8% last year and numerous employers are crying out for staff.

eviltwin

Being on a mortgage and facing the prospect of no way of meeting your repayments.

Needing to go to college to upskill but not having the money to access childcare to allow you to go.

Most of all the judgement for being a scrounger. It was a horrible experience, I was made redundant during the crash but everyone on welfare gets lumped together.

Geuze

laugh wrote: »

In Germany if you go from working to unemployed you get 65% or more of your after tax pay for a while.

67% of former net, if married, 60% if single, yes.

BUT

just for 12 months.

After that, their equivalent of JSA, known as Hartz IV, is approx 400 pm.

In contrast, we reward long-term UN by paying an Xmas bonus!!

Sweet.Science

Should of been more clear in my OP. I have huge sympathy for people who work etc then for whatever reason find themselves on the dole



I was talking about people who play the system . Rent allowance/council house, medical card, fuel allowance etc . Is there a downside ?

nothing

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

I think that was the case in 2010 ... but in 2018 it's a harder statement to back up?

The recession is long over. Ireland is the fastest growing economy in Europe for the fourth year in a row. There are plenty of jobs in the country now. Loads of shops, restaurants, etc., with help wanted signs up. There's a severe staff shortage in hotels. And yet there are still about 225,000 people on the Live Register.

I think it's more accurate to say that the vast majority of people on the dole today could find work if they genuinely wanted it. Finding a job during the recession was one thing, but this number of people on the Live Register is harder to justify when the country grew by nearly 8% last year and numerous employers are crying out for staff.

There's another downside - it costing more to work than not to because you end up losing all the associated benefits, not to mention possible unsuitable hours (may not be able to access or afford childcare), need to and cost of travel, possible lack of qualifications or experience, cost to upskill, lack of security of hours, reliance on public transport anywhere outside of a city (bus eireann have recently cut several stops on the Galway-Dublin commuter route). It's not as black and white as "oh look, there's loads of jobs."

fryup

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

I think it's more accurate to say that the vast majority of people on the dole today could find work if they genuinely wanted it. Finding a job during the recession was one thing, but this number of people on the Live Register is harder to justify when the country grew by nearly 8% last year and numerous employers are crying out for staff.

a lot these positions are specialist IT & Pharmaceutical and the like, that not many have the qualifications for...they end up going to migrants

demanufactured

There's an upside?

suicide_circus

Sonics2k wrote: »

I was on the dole a few years after the recession.

I went from having a pretty well paid and comfortable job, was able to easily pay my bills and rent and raise my kids.

Recession happened, lost my job, partner eventually left me due to a mixture of stress and being a cheating twat, took the kids to the other side of the country.

Bills piled up, I had to move back into the family home until I was finally able to find a stable job and get a new apartment.

People love to go on and on about the 'easy life' on the dole, but after bills and so on I had about €15 a week so it was impossible to save up any sort of cash to move out.

there is a world of difference between those who worked and contributed for years and then fell on hard times and the members of leisure class who never lifted a finger to support themselves or their society.

In the case you describe, you should have been given a weekly dole payment of say 70% of your lost net salary, slowly tapering down to a minimum amount based on prsi paid over x amount of years. This figure should be well in excess of the dole paid to those who have never worked.

Never working should be heavily penalised via very basic benefit levels. With increased automation and an aging population we cannot afford the luxury of a leisure class. Everyone needs to put their shoulder to the wheel.

Have a read of this:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2016/05/19/new-report-proves-maines-welfare-reforms-are-working/

The state of Maine tried an experiment requiring able bodied people in receipt of food stamps to start volunteering or training or working part time or face seeing their benefits reduce after 3 months. Lo and behold they saw their welfare bill reduce as lots of these people suddenly found jobs.

Guy:Incognito

People assuming everyone on the dole have no other incomes. How quaint.

There are people on the dole as long as I'm alive (approaching late 30's), who have never not worked. Loads of people in the building industry alone working cash in hand.

Graces7

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Should of been more clear in my OP. I have huge sympathy for people who work etc then for whatever reason find themselves on the dole



I was talking about people who play the system . Rent allowance/council house, medical card, fuel allowance etc . Is there a downside ?

How is that somehow wrong in your eyes? How is it "playing the system?" and what is the alternative? The workhouse?

Guy:Incognito

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

How is that somehow wrong in your eyes? How is it "playing the system?" and what is the alternative? The workhouse?

The alternative is to get a (legitimate ) job.

fryup

demanufactured wrote: »

There's an upside?

here's a few off the top of my head

*getting exspensive medical procedures paid for by the state

*not spending your time with assh@les

*not being stuck in rush hour traffic

*spending more time with your kids

LirW

As many said before it depends on your circumstances. If you grew up in an environment where a slob life was the way to go you don't know better and it's likely you'll end up with that comfort yourself.

If you have a family and lose a job that you could life off well enough, now that's something different. You get the bare minimum to scrape by, you're suddenly treated like an awfully lazy person that has no brain whatsoever and you'll lose a lot of your dignity. It disqualifies you from having an acceptable social life, you suddenly can't send your kids anywhere because it's too expensive and the 30 quid a month for their after school stuff makes a hell of a lot difference.
You don't have the money to put fuel in your car, you might not be able to keep it on the road, you might have to move home to your parents because that's the only option beside homelessness and it's not uncommon that friends turn on you because you have not a single Euro spare to go for a coffee or get involved in any activities.
I grew up quite poor, raised by a single mother that was trying to finish her degree but had no money and was always either on benefits or some really crappy minimum wage shift job. We couldn't go on school activities, I wouldn't get new clothes and when it was particularly hard we would only have a meal a day.

I don't wish that on anyone really. But the upside is that these people will eventually find a way out of it, they might never return to the level they previously were on but almost everything is better than the dole because you have literally no purpose.

vectorvictor

Very easy to get stuck in a rut and hard to justify work. Leads to lack of ambition particularly if you are single person going to be earning minimum or even living wage.

I.E.
Social welfare - €198
Rent allowance/HAP, Medical card , fuel allowance, CWO digouts etc..

Work 40hours @ €10 per hour
Take home is €362
Your on your own for everything
Effectively working for €4.10 an hour (diff between welfare and work pay)

Welfare system way too generous.
Should be food stamps , clothes vouchers and a leap card to get to and from interviews.
Login to an online system weekly to upload a minimum proof of five job applications that are verified.

If ya gets the free money to spend on fags, vodka and Domino's why bother working eh?

Job Seekers is just that , money to support looking for a job.

Grayson

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

I think that was the case in 2010 ... but in 2018 it's a harder statement to back up?

The recession is long over. Ireland is the fastest growing economy in Europe for the fourth year in a row. There are plenty of jobs in the country now. Loads of shops, restaurants, etc., with help wanted signs up. There's a severe staff shortage in hotels. And yet there are still about 225,000 people on the Live Register.

I think it's more accurate to say that the vast majority of people on the dole today could find work if they genuinely wanted it. Finding a job during the recession was one thing, but this number of people on the Live Register is harder to justify when the country grew by nearly 8% last year and numerous employers are crying out for staff.

That really depends on where you are and what you do. There's loads of rural area's where there's feck all. And if you're in a specialised industry you could have time to wait between jobs.

Church on Tuesday

It's a safety net. When things go very wrong in life, which happened to me, it's there to help you out and to give you the means to get back on your feet.

I was glad to have it and was it essentially a lifesaver, a couple of years ago, as I couldn't find work here I went to the UK and took whatever work was there there and was just glad to be working really, hoping now since I came back to do a PME and go on to be a teacher.

No one on the dole is living it up trust me, it keeps you ticking over and that's it. I despise these dole bashing threads simply because you never really know a persons personal circumstance. If people have had a ****e time in their life like I had, and only really now starting to come out of it, the dole is essential to helping you out.

Art McCarrick

Worth remembering a lot of welfare recipients are pensioners, welfare is a very broad term. There's nothing wrong with having a floor that people shouldn't fall through.

I wonder how many people saying we have a homeless crisis and we should look after our own first also spout hate about people on the dole?

Yes, there are perceived issues with people staying on it too long, or 2nd and 3rd generations of claimants but it's not a big percentage. It's a visible one though and an easy target and often makes for good headlines.

I was on the dole for a year after qualifying as a teacher, couldn't get work. Used my dole money to drive around the country knocking on doors and handing in CV's. But I wouldn't deny anyone the right to the dole or tell them how to spend it. I never thought I would have needed it but Jesus was I glad to get it. But oddly, and maybe this says a lot, I felt guilty taking it, maybe because we have such a general negative opinion of people on welfare?

oceanman

El Weirdo wrote: »

Downside? How about the constant dole-bashing threads in AH where people seem unable to distinguish between the vast majority of recipients who actually don't want to be in that position, and the reletively tiny minority who make it a lifestyle choice? That was definitely one.

very true...

Yer Da sells Avon

Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »

I think it's more accurate to say that the vast majority of people on the dole today could find work if they genuinely wanted it.

The vast majority of people on the dole today do genuinely want to work. However, that doesn't mean they're going to find work today. I spent three whole months applying for jobs and didn't even receive an acknowledgement from most of them, let alone an interview. And I wasn't fussy about the jobs I was applying for either.

Riskymove

Art McCarrick wrote: »

Worth remembering a lot of welfare recipients are pensioners, welfare is a very broad term.

people are using the term "on the dole" in these conversations and that tends to reflect the target of their comments - however I would go forward and say the issue is long term recipients of jobseeker benefits

OAP, Child benefit, Carers allowance,Illness and Disability etc. are all "welfare" benefits but I think it is clear that they are not what is being discussed