New cars are underpowered?

reubenreuben

Hired a new jeep renegade on holiday this year.

My god it was gutless. It was nice enough inside, leather seats etc and quiet but try overtaking in 5th or 6th, nothing in 5th and 6th was pointless.

I cant see the point in giving such cars a 6th gear. If its all to do with economy then its purpose is defeated as i tended to leave it in 5th as there was so little acceleration in 6th.
Just not a relaxing car to drive, constantly changing gears.

CiniO

reubenreuben wrote: »

Hired a new jeep renegade on holiday this year.

My god it was gutless. It was nice enough inside, leather seats etc and quiet but try overtaking in 5th or 6th, nothing in 5th and 6th was pointless.

I cant see the point in giving such cars a 6th gear. If its all to do with economy then its purpose is defeated as i tended to leave it in 5th as there was so little acceleration in 6th.
Just not a relaxing car to drive, constantly changing gears.

If you need power for overtaking, you reduce to third or something.
You can't except cars to have good acceleration on 5th or 6th at regular road speeds.

Alanstrainor

Cars have never been faster. But that doesn't mean that some aren't slow. Looking at the options for that Jeep, the entry level model has a 1.6 petrol with 110hp. Pretty low powered for something of that size tbh. Not surprised it didn't shift when you tried pulling away in such high gears.

bennyineire

6th gear is for cruising on a motor way, and who the hell overtakes in 5th or 6th especially if you need decent acceleration

reubenreuben

I do in my car here. and its an old 2 litre diesel. New ones are underpowered.

reubenreuben

CiniO wrote: »

If you need power for overtaking, you reduce to third or something.
You can't except cars to have good acceleration on 5th or 6th at regular road speeds.

On motorway I was. Couldn't use 3rd or even 4th.

CiniO

reubenreuben wrote: »

On motorway I was. Couldn't use 3rd or even 4th.

How fast were you going?
Most car are perfectly OK on 4th up to more than 150km/h.

Simple rule - if you feel acceleration is not good enough, reduce gear and rev it up to red zone. You'll get your acceleration then.

Interslice

Most rentals are poorly maintained, on top of having the base spec underpowered eco box engine and need to be driven appropriately to compensate .

bennyineire

reubenreuben wrote: »

I do in my car here. and its an old 2 litre diesel. New ones are underpowered.

Such a ridiculous sweeping statment based on 1 car you rented

draiochtanois

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mfceiling

reubenreuben wrote: »

I do in my car here. and its an old 2 litre diesel. New ones are underpowered.

Who are you overtaking in an old diesel in 5th gear? A pensioner in a battery wheelchair?

RobAMerc

I've a relatively new 2.0 td auto estate and a 25 yo 1.8 petrol 2 seater. The newer car would leave the old yoke for dead.
What you should be writing is "I dont understand the gear ratios in a modern X-Over I rented"

wonski

mfceiling wrote: »

Who are you overtaking in an old diesel in 5th gear? A pensioner in a battery wheelchair?

A person driving slower than him on a motorway I guess...

reubenreuben

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They are compared to the old one

biko

I used to be able to overtake in 5th in my old Saab 2L turbo, but tbh if you are going to overtake then switch to appropriate gear, usually 3rd or so depending on speed.

reubenreuben

I had an old 2 litre saab too, 5th gear acceleration outstanding on motorway.

draiochtanois

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reubenreuben

draiochtanois wrote: »

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veyron

Philb76

reubenreuben wrote: »

I do in my car here. and its an old 2 litre diesel. New ones are underpowered.

2litre diesel cars in the 90s had the likes of 75bhp and 90bhp wer dog slow unrefined and no match for the modern equivalent

rn

There's no replacement for displacement ðŸ˜. We've a 1.6 tdi 2016 passat and it's defo underpowered. We've a 2018 Skoda Octavia 2.0 tdi and it's a lovely drive, very responsive in 3rd, 4th and 5th.

reubenreuben

Philb76 wrote: »

2litre diesel cars in the 90s had the likes of 75bhp and 90bhp wer dog slow unrefined and no match for the modern equivalent

They were lighter though. Most cars now are heavy with all the safety equipment

reubenreuben

rn wrote: »

There's no replacement for displacement ðŸ˜. We've a 1.6 tdi 2016 passat and it's defo underpowered. We've a 2018 Skoda Octavia 2.0 tdi and it's a lovely drive, very responsive in 3rd, 4th and 5th.

Exactly, power to weight ratio is better

Philb76

reubenreuben wrote: »

Philb76 wrote: »

2litre diesel cars in the 90s had the likes of 75bhp and 90bhp wer dog slow unrefined and no match for the modern equivalent

They were lighter though. Most cars now are heavy with all the safety equipment

Very true like for like cars much bigger now 12 airbags and all the safety gear adds some weight but the old diesel cars especially without turbos wer very unpleasant to drive

challengemaster

bennyineire wrote: »

6th gear is for cruising on a motor way, and who the hell overtakes in 5th or 6th especially if you need decent acceleration

Just about any decently powered turbo diesel will easily accelerate in 5th no problem.

V8 Interceptor

If you revved the shyte out of her you'd be alright. It can wear you out a bit on long journeys though.

reubenreuben

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

If you revved the shyte out of her you'd be alright. It can wear you out a bit on long journeys though.

Thats it, can't beat high torque

colm_mcm

Sure the Renegade is basically a Fiat 500X, you’d hardly expect it to be fast.

TrailerBob

VHS is better than Blu-Ray too, and them fancy computers, not nearly as fun as an abacus


*my daily is 15 years old... if I had money I'd buy a brand new one

Markcheese

And Shure them modern electric cars don't have any gears at all.... (But I've no idea how they are at motorway overtaking)...

creedp

Markcheese wrote: »

And Shure them modern electric cars don't have any gears at all.... (But I've no idea how they are at motorway overtaking)...

The 1st generation Leaf, like all EVs which have max torgue from the off, is great off the line but pretty poor at motorway speed. The Tesla's and newer EV's like the 40KWh Leaf, Hyundai Ioniq and soon to be launched crossovers are probably better but EV's drivetrains are generally designed to operate best at lower speeds. This is predominantly to protect batteries and maximise reported / real range which is currently the main limiting factor for EVs.

Del2005

creedp wrote: »

The 1st generation Leaf, like all EVs which have max torgue from the off, is great off the line but pretty poor at motorway speed. The Tesla's and newer EV's like the 40KWh Leaf, Hyundai Ioniq and soon to be launched crossovers are probably better but EV's drivetrains are generally designed to operate best at lower speeds. This is predominantly to protect batteries and maximise reported / real range which is currently the main limiting factor for EVs.

For a car with torque from zero it has an atrocious 0 to 100 time though.

Sabre Man

Markcheese wrote: »

And Shure them modern electric cars don't have any gears at all.... (But I've no idea how they are at motorway overtaking)...

My Model S has excellent response at any (legal) speed. Overtaking on motorways or elsewhere is simply not an issue. Model X and I-PACE should be the same.

The new Nissan Leaf is pretty responsive as well, although I haven't driven one at motorway speeds.

bennyineire

Del2005 wrote: »

For a car with torque from zero it has an atrocious 0 to 100 time though.

The new E-Plus Leaf available next year will have a 0-100km in 6.5 seconds and a 60KW battery, this car could be the game changer

DaveyDave

Not sure how much displacement comes into play here but it's all about the power curve whether it's petrol or diesel. Won't be much power in low revs in 6th gear.

I do think a lot of cars are underpowered though, the entry level engines in VW and Ford for example. Cars taking 17 seconds to get 0-60...

creedp

Del2005 wrote: »

For a car with torque from zero it has an atrocious 0 to 100 time though.

But that's the point unlike ICE's that have low torque at low low revs which hinders their 0-60 time, the likes of the Leaf 1 has the opposite issue, it has max torque from the start and can take off like the clappers from a standing start hitting 60kmh quite quickly but then the torque tapers off making the 0-60kmh time relatively slow.

To be honest I don't have the technical data to hand to support this but I've heard (obviously I didn't try this myself) that the Leaf 1 tops out at a indicated max speed of 162kmh but that represents a real GPS speed of 144kmh - speedo is notorious for overstating true speed. However, there is a very noticeable fall off in power/torque at about 140km indicated (about 120kmh GPS). Would think though that the max torque figure starts to taper well before 120kmh GPS although as I have said I have no data to back this view up.

For me driving the Leaf 1 is all about maximising range so for the 1st time in my long but unproductive life I'm learning to drive with a light right foot! I'm just about retaining my sanity by taking the diesel out for a jolly jaunt every now and again!

Del2005

creedp wrote: »

But that's the point unlike ICE's that have low torque at low low revs which hinders their 0-60 time, the likes of the Leaf 1 has the opposite issue, it has max torque from the start and can take off like the clappers from a standing start hitting 60kmh quite quickly but then the torque tapers off making the 0-60kmh time relatively slow.

To be honest I don't have the technical data to hand to support this but I've heard (obviously I didn't try this myself) that the Leaf 1 tops out at a indicated max speed of 162kmh but that represents a real GPS speed of 144kmh - speedo is notorious for overstating true speed. However, there is a very noticeable fall off in power/torque at about 140km indicated (about 120kmh GPS). Would think though that the max torque figure starts to taper well before 120kmh GPS although as I have said I have no data to back this view up.

For me driving the Leaf 1 is all about maximising range so for the 1st time in my long but unproductive life I'm learning to drive with a light right foot! I'm just about retaining my sanity by taking the diesel out for a jolly jaunt every now and again!

I know that some people buy for efficiency and savings. But this is about under powered cars and an EV that takes 10 seconds to 100 is under powered.

V8 Interceptor

10 secs to 60mph isn't horrendous Del Boy. Most average cars with around 110, 120hp would probably do similar.

Del2005

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

10 secs to 60mph isn't horrendous Del Boy. Most average cars with around 110, 120hp would probably do similar.

For a vehicle with full torque from zero it is. They could have even done a sport button but 10 seconds is terrible for the technology involved.

Wildly Boaring

My current older car has way more power than my previous new car. The even older car before that one had way more power than both cars.

OP's point proven.

But what if I buy a newer and higher powered car next? Is his point then disproven?

Atlantic Dawn

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

My current older car has way more power than my previous new car. The even older car before that one had way more power than both cars.

OP's point proven.

But what if I buy a newer and higher powered car next? Is his point then disproven?

I think it was more his driving style thinking that 5th and 6th would pull more than 4th.

Wildly Boaring

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I think it was more his driving style thinking that 5th and 6th would pull more than 4th.

All relative.

Prefer to be in 5th in my old 330d than 4th in the Auris I had last

Foxhole Norman

Modern cars are not underpowered. Models typically bought by the Irish are.

mickdw

The mass purchased cars now are terrible. Engines getting smaller everyday and turbos being bolted on. Take the vw passat as an example. The entry used to be 1.9 tdi. They then moved it to 1.6 tdi with similar bhp figures but god it was a gutless piece of crap.
It's marginally better now but 2.0 should really be minimum in such a car.

Audioslaven

mickdw wrote: »

The mass purchased cars now are terrible. Engines getting smaller everyday and turbos being bolted on. Take the vw passat as an example. The entry used to be 1.9 tdi. They then moved it to 1.6 tdi with similar bhp figures but god it was a gutless piece of crap.
It's marginally better now but 2.0 should really be minimum in such a car.

spot on - they are putting small engines in these biggish cars and you feel the underpower. I don't care if you drop the gears, the engine is too small to bring a car of that weight around - you will really feel it in country roads.
I had a similar experience with a C5 with a 1.6 engine. The C5 was a right pain in country roads. The same engine in a Mazda 3 was a totally different drive as it was suitable to the size and weight of the car

V8 Interceptor

These wee turbo'd engines are putting out more power than the larger ones they replaced though lads. Its been a few years now & I've not heard of an inundation of problems that some (myself included) were prophesising.

B00056718

I just rented almost brand new Mini 2.0 diesel in Spain couple of weeks ago, and felt that the throttle response was very underwhelming, even compared to older petrol 1.4. ended constantly revving the life out of that thing. Horrible drive. You could actually feel that the torque is there, but being pulled back by software.
Also, recently jumped straight from 09 2.0 TDI to 162 2.0 TDI that had its emissions update done. My god, the 162 was dead.
The new emissions regulations have these guys pushed in the corner. It's only matter of time, before only excitement will be possible in EV's for any reasonable money.

Neilw

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

These wee turbo'd engines are putting out more power than the larger ones they replaced though lads. Its been a few years now & I've not heard of an inundation of problems that some (myself included) were prophesising.

That is true but a lot of drivers are afraid to drop a gear or three to make use of the power.

mickdw

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

These wee turbo'd engines are putting out more power than the larger ones they replaced though lads. Its been a few years now & I've not heard of an inundation of problems that some (myself included) were prophesising.

But that is where the con is. Bhp figure is not everything. Fitting weedy engines that have nothing when off turbo is a terrible way for the industry to go. It was all part of the diesel nonsense.
Some nice hybrid option available now at least.

Del2005

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

These wee turbo'd engines are putting out more power than the larger ones they replaced though lads. Its been a few years now & I've not heard of an inundation of problems that some (myself included) were prophesising.

A few years ago I was driving an auto 520d and trying to come out of a junction on a hill. The 1st few times there was a gap the car didn't have the power to get out safely so I had to left foot brake and spin the turbo up to get enough power to pull out safely. The small petrol turbos will be the same as they have no power unless on boost and most people are afraid to rev cars, especially if they've spent the last 10 years in oil burners that red line at 4k, and the small petrol turbos will need to be rev'ed to get power.

So the small turbos have more power than older cars but only when you push them and when you push them to get power then you loose all the benefits of the small engine. Which is where the OP started from. Older cars could roll on in high gears as the where usually not turbo-ed or where big* diesels if they were where, no replacement for displacement, as new cars are small turbo they need to driven differently and people don't change that quick. Last few rentals I've had have been oil burners and they keep flashing change lights at me at what was a very low RPM for a petrol driver

* Big for Ireland!

MetzgerMeister

challengemaster wrote: »

Just about any decently powered turbo diesel will easily accelerate in 5th no problem.

And in 6th/7th/8th

rabbitinlights

Del2005 wrote: »

A few years ago I was driving an auto 520d and trying to come out of a junction on a hill. The 1st few times there was a gap the car didn't have the power to get out safely so I had to left foot brake and spin the turbo up to get enough power to pull out safely.

That sounds very strange - no way a 520d should have an issue getting out of any up hill junction.