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Is this a common attitude towards fatherhood in Ireland?

2

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    ....... wrote: »
    I dont think you and your husband have compatible views on marriage/relationships/family.

    He has actually stated to you that you are not his first priority.

    Did you post before about Christmas dinner and not wanting to go to his family and him saying he would go with your daughter and you could stay home alone?

    Am I missing something that's going on in other threads? Her husband seems attentive and a good father but would like to spend time with his family on special occasions?

    I have diametrically opposite views on social issues and religion to my parents and they have very traditional outlooks on life. They're both in their into their late seventies now so I don't know how long I'll have with them. I could pull them up on everything we disagree with but I don't see the point. It will achieve nothing. I'd rather appreciate what they've done for me in terms of how they raised me and gave me a stable upbringing completely free from drama.

    Just because they hold old school views doesn't mean I do and if they express their old school views I just brush them off because I don't really care about creating conflict with them. It doesn't interest me in the slightest. I suppose I'm lucky in that my partner would be of the same mindset.

    If my partner didn't want to see my parents or family, I wouldn't force her but I wouldn't stop seeing them either. A partner trying to block a person from seeing their family is acting pretty crappily in my opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    A parents loyalty should always lie with their child first and foremost. If you have no maternal instincts and no intention to be a housewife why in hell would you want to leave your husband and have ANOTHER child with someone else?

    Would this new man stay at home with your daughter and your new baby while you go back to work? Would his family have no relationship with their son and grandchild in your "perfect world"?

    I have to admit that I think you're absolutely over reacting about every incident or example you've mentioned, you'll never be happy if you keep picking fault with everyone around you.
    Am I missing something that's going on in other threads? Her husband seems attentive and a good father but would like to spend time with his family on special occasions?

    I have diametrically opposite views on social issues and religion to my parents and they have very traditional outlooks on life. They're both in their into their late seventies now so I don't know how long I'll have with them. I could pull them up on everything we disagree with but I don't see the point. It will achieve nothing. I'd rather appreciate what they've done for me in terms of how they raised me and gave me a stable upbringing completely free from drama.

    Just because they hold old school views doesn't mean I do and if they express their old school views I just brush them off because I don't really care about creating conflict with them. It doesn't interest me in the slightest. I suppose I'm lucky in that my partner would be of the same mindset.

    If my partner didn't want to see my parents or family, I wouldn't force her but I wouldn't stop seeing them either. A partner trying to block a person from seeing their family is acting pretty crappily in my opinion.

    It's not that I expect people not to have relationships with their parents or siblings it's just that I don't want this to take precedence over me or loyalty to me. If their parents/siblings don't like me or want to be friends (or I don't like them) with me then what's the point of being married into that?

    I would expect a new spouse to want a double-career household where the child can go to a nursery and to not expect me to stay home. Yes, I could afford it. I find your views offensive. It's all or nothing woman home or man home and nothing in between.

    My in-laws have never done anything for me other than creating drama. They have not always been welcoming or warm towards me at all. There have been times when they really hurt me and did nothing to mend the gap.

    I'm not trying to block my husband from seeing them but I hate how his family takes precedence over me and now I have to put up with special occasions. How would you feel if you were not confident that you would ever enjoy a special occasion again because of them?

    I would expect someone to distance themselves from a family member who doesn't like me or who is bothering me but my husband will not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Am I missing something that's going on in other threads? Her husband seems attentive and a good father but would like to spend time with his family on special occasions?

    I dont know if the Christmas thread was from the same poster.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    OP, how is your relationship with your own family?

    you keep bringing up problems with your inlaws (you must have listed 20 gripes with them at this stage) but no mention of your own family.

    would your somewhat hatred of the inlaws have any distinct roots in your own family i wonder? looks to me like youve a problem with your husband being close to his own family, somewhat jealousy perhaps.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    karen42 wrote: »
    I see my husband and daughter every single day.

    So you find doing things with just them as a family boring? Because you see them everyday? I honestly don't understand the preference for doing something by yourself with your child rather than as a family.
    karen42 wrote: »
    I would expect a new spouse to want a double-career household where the child can go to a nursery and to not expect me to stay home. Yes, I could afford it. I find your views offensive. It's all or nothing woman home or man home and nothing in between.

    But does your husband expect you to stay at home or is the current situation that you both work with your daughter in nursery? I would imagine when I have kids that neither of us will be stay at home parents because we just can't afford it and I don't think either of us wants to be a full time parent. So it's not all or nothing.
    karen42 wrote: »
    It's not that I expect people not to have relationships with their parents or siblings it's just that I don't want this to take precedence over me or loyalty to me. If their parents/siblings don't like me or want to be friends (or I don't like them) with me then what's the point of being married into that?
    karen42 wrote: »
    I would expect someone to distance themselves from a family member who doesn't like me or who is bothering me but my husband will not.

    That's quite harsh I would think. I mean at the end of the day, his family was his family long before you and unless they did something that was really bad (I would imagine violence or complete derogatory comments) I wouldn't expect him to cut his siblings or other close family members out because you don't get on with them.

    I'll be honest - I don't always like my SIL. I love her to bits as she makes my brother happy and I'll make chit-chat with her at occasions but our views on life are vastly different and if, given a choice outside the relationship, I probably wouldn't spend time with her. However I would be horribly hurt if my brother cut me out because of that.

    I would never expect that in-laws would be my friends. It's a bonus if they end up being but it doesn't always happen. And trying to force a friendship really doesn't make it any better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    So you find doing things with just them as a family boring? Because you see them everyday? I honestly don't understand the preference for doing something by yourself with your child rather than as a family.



    But does your husband expect you to stay at home or is the current situation that you both work with your daughter in nursery? I would imagine when I have kids that neither of us will be stay at home parents because we just can't afford it and I don't think either of us wants to be a full time parent. So it's not all or nothing.





    That's quite harsh I would think. I mean at the end of the day, his family was his family long before you and unless they did something that was really bad (I would imagine violence or complete derogatory comments) I wouldn't expect him to cut his siblings or other close family members out because you don't get on with them.

    I'll be honest - I don't always like my SIL. I love her to bits as she makes my brother happy and I'll make chit-chat with her at occasions but our views on life are vastly different and if, given a choice outside the relationship, I probably wouldn't spend time with her. However I would be horribly hurt if my brother cut me out because of that.

    I would never expect that in-laws would be my friends. It's a bonus if they end up being but it doesn't always happen. And trying to force a friendship really doesn't make it any better.

    My child prefers her dad over me so she acts differently when she's with him or the 3 of us. I don't really enjoy it as much. When she's alone with me and I take her out she kind of has to listen to me and spend time with me.

    I don't expect someone to cut themselves off completely from their family if they were unkind to me but to make their loyalty and stance very clear as well as have consequences for not listening. My husband fails to do this. He's unlikely to change.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    OP, how is your relationship with your own family?

    you keep bringing up problems with your inlaws (you must have listed 20 gripes with them at this stage) but no mention of your own family.

    would your somewhat hatred of the inlaws have any distinct roots in your own family i wonder? looks to me like youve a problem with your husband being close to his own family, somewhat jealousy perhaps.

    I really dislike my own family of origin but it's understandable. There was emotional incest, screaming, verbal abuse etc. almost daily from the time I was 4 until the day I moved out at 17. It's not that they didn't love me at all, I think she had undiagnosed mental health issues (BPD or something like that).

    I won't go into too many details but I don't like my family. I still talk to them and maybe visit once a year to once every 3 years but the relationship I have with them is more of an obligation than genuine liking.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    karen42 wrote: »
    My child prefers her dad over me so she acts differently when she's with him or the 3 of us. I don't really enjoy it as much. When she's alone with me and I take her out she kind of has to listen to me and spend time with me.

    So you don't enjoy time together as family, just the three of you because of how your daughter will probably spend more time with her father? I'm sure your husband is not oblivious to that fact and its bound to cause tension.

    You want your husband to prioritise you as a family but you don't enjoy spending time together as a family. It seems like he's stuck between a rock and a hard place there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    So you don't enjoy time together as family, just the three of you because of how your daughter will probably spend more time with her father? I'm sure your husband is not oblivious to that fact and its bound to cause tension.

    You want your husband to prioritise you as a family but you don't enjoy spending time together as a family. It seems like he's stuck between a rock and a hard place there.

    No, my husband doesn't think that what I say is true. He doesn't think she prefers him but she's much more obedient and attentive to him than to me.

    I enjoy the time in our home but not really when we go out because there isn't much to talk about or do. He is a homebody and doesn't go out much anyways.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    karen42 wrote: »
    My child prefers her dad over me so she acts differently when she's with him or the 3 of us. I don't really enjoy it as much. When she's alone with me and I take her out she kind of has to listen to me and spend time with me.

    I can understand that to an extent - you want to have a bond with her but feel that you're the extra one when it's the 3 of you. But that said, surely it's better for her to go out the 3 of you and find something you enjoy. She might listen to her dad more on those occasions but as long as you're both saying the same thing, does it matter as long as she's listening?
    karen42 wrote: »
    I don't expect someone to cut themselves off completely from their family if they were unkind to me but to make their loyalty and stance very clear as well as have consequences for not listening. My husband fails to do this. He's unlikely to change.

    But how would they do this? My brother had words with me in the past about making more of an effort with my SIL. I try to now but I know he never said anything to her about it so how would she know that he had her back? It was done discretely. And I don't know what type of consequences for not listening you're thinking of. Your husband may be just trying to keep the peace between the 2 sides of his family. He might not be going about it the best way but that doesn't mean he's not loyal to you.
    karen42 wrote: »
    No, my husband doesn't think that what I say is true. He doesn't think she prefers him but she's much more obedient and attentive to him than to me.

    I think most kids are more obedient to one parent than the other - my niece definitely listens more when her dad tells her to do something but that's down to the fact that he isn't the disciplinarian too often so it has more weight almost when he lays down the law. It's the opposite for my friend where her son will listen more to her than his dad because even at 3 years old, he's learned his dad won't follow through.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    karen42 wrote: »
    No, my husband doesn't think that what I say is true. He doesn't think she prefers him but she's much more obedient and attentive to him than to me.

    Why do you constantly demand comparison? It's between you and his family, you even analyse who your daughter loves more. I was called the worst mother ever by a 5 year old more than once for not agreeing to her demands. :D She is complete daddy's girl at the moment but last year Santa was bringing daddy a bag of coal because he is naughty. Kids will have different dynamics with their parents, they will push different buttons to get what they want. What does it matter if you love your daughter and she loves you. It very hard to be around someone who constantly compares every action and constantly evaluates affection of those around them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭nikkibikki


    karen42 wrote:
    My child prefers her dad over me so she acts differently when she's with him or the 3 of us. I don't really enjoy it as much. When she's alone with me and I take her out she kind of has to listen to me and spend time with me.

    karen42 wrote:
    No, my husband doesn't think that what I say is true. He doesn't think she prefers him but she's much more obedient and attentive to him than to me.


    Are you jealous of the bond between your husband and your daughter?

    Have you had counselling for your own childhood issues? I think that's where you should start. You need help.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    nikkibikki wrote: »
    Are you jealous of the bond between your husband and your daughter?

    Have you had counselling for your own childhood issues? I think that's where you should start. You need help.

    I'm not really jealous so much as disappointed and threatened.

    I mean if we were to split up I'm not confident about the outcome of that for me.

    He has threatened me before with a custody battle during an argument etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Why do you constantly demand comparison? It's between you and his family, you even analyse who your daughter loves more. I was called the worst mother ever by a 5 year old more than once for not agreeing to her demands. :D She is complete daddy's girl at the moment but last year Santa was bringing daddy a bag of coal because he is naughty. Kids will have different dynamics with their parents, they will push different buttons to get what they want. What does it matter if you love your daughter and she loves you. It very hard to be around someone who constantly compares every action and constantly evaluates affection of those around them.

    I guess because of the dynamics here I'm not confident that things would turn out well for me if we split up. I'm pretty sure she would choose him over me etc.

    Also, I'm not confident in where I stand in my own family. Not sure the loyalty is strong enough.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,514 ✭✭✭bee06


    karen42 wrote: »
    No, my husband doesn't think that what I say is true. He doesn't think she prefers him but she's much more obedient and attentive to him than to me.

    That doesn’t mean she prefers him! Children are always more obedient for one parent. It’s not a show of preference.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    What do you think loyalty is? Leaving his family for you over this nothingness? Never disagreeing with you on any point?
    Honestly. This sounds like massive offense being taken to the smallest passing bit of conversation. I can't understand the sensitivities and perceived slights myself. Nothing on this thread sounds like anything more serious than banter. Do you have similar lists of enemies at work as well? People who have crossed you in some way?

    I'm as feminist as they come, but I am well able to entertain a conversation on it without wanting to do dramatic storm offs into the countryside with just a bunch of yes-men to follow me. You can disagree and still get along you know.

    In fact, in respect of him, and who he is, you should be making an effort to get along with his family. We all do that for the most part.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    OP, i dont want to be harsh here but i really think you could be the main issue here and not the "others" as you seem to think they are. you seem to think everybody is against you - even your own child comes in for accusations here somewhat.

    you need to sit back, stop thinking the world is against you and focus first and foremost on your family - ie your husband and child. stop focusing on petty arguments about who is saying or doing what. if you dont, you will torment yourself and ultimately destroy what appears to be a very good family that you have.

    i wish you the best of luck and hope it works out...if you make the effort and ease off on the paranoia/jealously, it will.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    karen42 wrote: »
    I'm not really jealous so much as disappointed and threatened.

    I mean if we were to split up I'm not confident about the outcome of that for me.

    He has threatened me before with a custody battle during an argument etc.

    Daughters tend to get on better with their dads. My daughter is 20 and it's only now she's getting on well with her mum, but we have always gotten on. Threatening in a custody battle is a low blow. That's more than just a fight over who does the dishes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭kerryjack


    I think the mammy has a lot to do with it, doing everything for there little pride and joy and than he gets married and the poor ould soul can't do anything for himself, its still going on and i know plenty of them. Now there is plenty of women about as well that have high expectations and were spoiled at home and find it hard to cope in real world.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    nikkibikki wrote: »
    Have you had counselling for your own childhood issues? I think that's where you should start. You need help.
    This, jesus this.

    The more you reveal, the more it becomes clear that you're holding your husband and daughter (and his family), to a family standard that's unattainable, and probably changes from year to year.

    If your only frame of reference is the terrible family dynamic that you come from, then it seems like that what you envision in your mind as the ideal family is one which is the exact opposite of the one you came from. And when your own family doesn't meet that, something must be wrong - with them. No family is perfect. Just because an upbringing was awful, doesn't mean everything they did was wrong. Likewise, a great upbringing doesn't mean every decision was right.

    You do put everything in terms of things done to you, against you. You frame everything from the perspective of how others interact, you never mention how you interact. Which means introspection and self-critique is probably not a strong point for you. Your self-esteem may be low (understandable from your background), so you avoid confronting your own failings at all costs.

    Even your last post:

    "I'm not really jealous so much as disappointed and threatened. "

    Jealous is personal failure. An admission of jealousy means you're showing weakness, and you may be wrong.

    Disappointment is not; disappointment means someone else has failed you.

    "Threatened" means that someone else is attacking you.

    If you were to ask me to list some of the emotions that make up jealousy, "disappointed" and "threatened" would be top of the list.

    You are jealous, but you instantly went on the defensive when someone suggested it. And rather than accept, "yeah, maybe I am", you turned it around to try and say, "I'm not weak, I'm under attack".

    You need counselling. You need to learn how to be introspective. You need to learn that showing weakness is OK, that self-critique is OK, and admitting when we're wrong is essential to a strong relationship.

    A common thread throughout this and the other discussion is emotional coldness. You don't feel as close to anyone as you would like to be. That's not because other people are shying away from you, it's because you're shying away from them, and from yourself.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭Idle Passerby


    Your a bit all over the place OP. You started by saying the problem was your in-laws old fashioned ideas, even though your husband doesn't ascribe to them. You seem to be taking your in-laws life choices and opinions far too personally.

    Then it moved on to your problem being that your daughter prefers your husband. On one hand you worry that if you were to split he would get custody, but on the other hand you want to leave them both and start a new family with someone else? Your flipping between extremes.

    I don't think your problem is your husbands ability to parent. Your in laws opinions about who should cook dinner aren't your problem either and their decisions about how they live their own lives are definitely not your problem.

    It sounds like you are looking for fault everywhere and treating everything others do and say as a personal injury to you. You expect your husband to play referee between you and the whole world, including your own child. Its not healthy and it doesn't sound rational. I think you should speak to someone and figure out what is really bothering you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Whispered


    OP one of the hardest parts of having a less than ideal childhood is breaking the cycle of dysfunction when you have your own child. You absolutely have a duty to your child now to get help of some sort. Otherwise the cycle continues and in years to come your daughter could well be getting advice on how to deal with HER childhood.

    You have an issue with everything. You're considering leaving your husband and child to have another hypothetical child with a hypothetical man. Yet you're banging on about loyalty and your husbands lack of it. There is something disordered in your thinking. The problem is not everyone else. Please allow yourself to consider this and speak to someone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    kerryjack wrote: »
    I think the mammy has a lot to do with it, doing everything for there little pride and joy and than he gets married and the poor ould soul can't do anything for himself, its still going on and i know plenty of them. Now there is plenty of women about as well that have high expectations and were spoiled at home and find it hard to cope in real world.

    That's true but the OPs husband doesn't seem to be like this. His family are.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,390 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    karen42 wrote: »
    I'm not really jealous so much as disappointed and threatened.

    I mean if we were to split up I'm not confident about the outcome of that for me.

    He has threatened me before with a custody battle during an argument etc.

    I don't think the main issue here is your in laws attitudes about the role of women within a marriage/home etc.

    You probably need to examine why you view your relationship with your daughter almost as a competition with her father. She gets on well with her father. That's great. In your own words you are disappointed and threatened. You're disappointed that she doesn't love you more? Maybe she has picked up on your attitude to her and therefore it's harder for her to develop the kind of relationship she has with her father with you. Maybe she has picked up on the fact that you don't enjoy doing things as a family. To be honest, saying things like 'I see them every day' as a reason for not doing things as a family is weird. You live in the same house, of course you see them everyday. Nobody would ever go anywhere if they all held that view. People like to go out and do fun things outside the home, to have different experiences from the daily routine of mealtimes, cooking, cleaning etc.



    But on the view that your in laws are sexist - maybe they are, but they can choose to live their lives in whatever way they want. Feminism doesn't mean every woman has to suddenly go out and become a mechanic or plumber. Some women like being at home with their children. I don't have any kids, but if i do have some in the future, I won't be staying at home, like you it would drive me cracked. But it's great not to be forced into it.

    On the other hand, several of my friends ( we are all teachers) have gone on job share in the last couple of years, and don't really have any intention of going back full time. It's not a short term plan to cope with childcare costs. In fact, a number of them didn't go on job share until the children were about 3 and some were in school. Arguably it would have been of more benefit financially when the children were babies/toddlers and required more hands on care. Their reasons? They like spending time with their children. They want to be hands on with them. They want to interact with them as much as possible and enjoy bringing them to school, football, dance classes etc. Some of them have also said in a 'if we won the lotto fantasy' that if that chance came, they would be happy to give up work, stay at home full time and let their husbands do the earning. It will never be for me, but some women like it and would rather spend their time raising their kids than working in an office, classroom, factory and forking that money out to a creche. It's great to have the choice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 563 ✭✭✭orthsquel


    karen42 wrote: »
    I guess because of the dynamics here I'm not confident that things would turn out well for me if we split up. I'm pretty sure she would choose him over me etc.

    Also, I'm not confident in where I stand in my own family. Not sure the loyalty is strong enough.

    I don't think you were much loved in your family or by your mother were you OP? I would guess that whatever little affection your mother showed you, you are showing the same towards your daughter. You come across as a very disinterested parent, who has no wish or desire to be a parent, but who is, nonetheless, a parent, who has no interest in a family outing for a day, and comes across as confused of the suggestion of what would you do something like that for, when you see them everyday.

    Your past is a shadow looming over you, the inlaws are nothing but distraction to what the real problems are in your past. No doubt your daughter has picked up on your being completely disengaged as a parent, and emotionally distant, she would then gravitate towards a parent who is open and emotionally engaging. It would be not surprising then if your daughter grew up to feeling unwanted and unloved by her own mother for just merely existing while you simmer in your resentment and jealousy towards her because you are not the priority in your husband's life that you feel you should be, because he can be open and loving towards your daughter......and less so, towards you.

    I think you need immediate counselling..... did you have post natal depression? Did you ever get counselling about your own upbringing?
    I think you need it urgently, because you are not just further damaging yourself, but your husband and creating the same psychological and emotional damage to your daughter that was done to you. If you had a difficult upbringing, then you need to reach the little girl inside of you and talk to her, listen to her, let her tell her story and let her heal. Only then will you allow yourself to enjoy the relationship, the marriage and the family you have, and the daughter I'm sure deep down you do love, and will show love to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    Haven't read all the replies, but the ones I have range from critical to outright mean. There seems to be some ideas that are quite disconnected from anything the OP has actually said in any of her posts.

    Completely agree with the notion of your first loyalty being towards your spouse. That is demonstably the situation with me and my wife. We don't alienate each other from our families or friends. Quite the opposite. But we never take **** about the other person. Personally I get angry and verbal far more quickly if something upsets my wife or kid than I ever would about myself. I would feel quite let down and betrayed if my wife were to accept **** talk about me. I would see someone who did this as weak to be blunt.

    I work full time. Luckily enough we don't need two incomes and my wife looks after our kid. So she does 100% of housework and caring for our child while I'm at work and I try to make sure I do 50% of the rest of the time. My job can be stressful and I've been getting pissed off with it recently. Nonetheless I see her side of this as being more onerous.

    Being primary carer all the time is an unreasonable demand, and would pretty much compel compromises in the quality of that care. It is sexist to dismiss the importance of looking after kids or how hard it is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭ElizaBennett


    I agree that your husband should always make you feel he's on your side and he hasn't done that. There doesn't seem to be any closeness between you both and for him to threaten you with a custody battle is, for me, a line in the sand when it comes to the relationship. How do you come back from that sort of threat and remain in love and happy? I question whether you should be in this marriage at all as it's not bringing you (or possibly him) much happiness. But counselling separately and together might help that. How would you characterise the relationship generally? Do you feel loved? Is there any romance?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    I agree that your husband should always make you feel he's on your side and he hasn't done that. There doesn't seem to be any closeness between you both and for him to threaten you with a custody battle is, for me, a line in the sand when it comes to the relationship. How do you come back from that sort of threat and remain in love and happy? I question whether you should be in this marriage at all as it's not bringing you (or possibly him) much happiness. But counselling separately and together might help that. How would you characterise the relationship generally? Do you feel loved? Is there any romance?

    Tbf, if she used the line on here with him that maybe she should go off and have another child with someone else who might be properly loyal to her, I could understand him threatening a custody battle.

    The relationship sounds fairly toxic at the moment but she needs to get her issues sorted out first and foremost before there's any hope of making progress with their relationship.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    Tbf, if she used the line on here with him that maybe she should go off and have another child with someone else who might be properly loyal to her, I could understand him threatening a custody battle.

    The relationship sounds fairly toxic at the moment but she needs to get her issues sorted out first and foremost before there's any hope of making progress with their relationship.

    Again, he's the one who does this when we argue. I don't. Stop assuming that I'm the only one who has a problem just because I don't like sexist people. If I bring up an issue with him and the argument escalates then he threatens me with divorce or child custody. There was a time when we broke up for a week and he said he won't be moving out of the house. He said I'd have to leave and the child will be staying with him.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    orthsquel wrote: »
    I don't think you were much loved in your family or by your mother were you OP? I would guess that whatever little affection your mother showed you, you are showing the same towards your daughter. You come across as a very disinterested parent, who has no wish or desire to be a parent, but who is, nonetheless, a parent, who has no interest in a family outing for a day, and comes across as confused of the suggestion of what would you do something like that for, when you see them everyday.

    Your past is a shadow looming over you, the inlaws are nothing but distraction to what the real problems are in your past. No doubt your daughter has picked up on your being completely disengaged as a parent, and emotionally distant, she would then gravitate towards a parent who is open and emotionally engaging. It would be not surprising then if your daughter grew up to feeling unwanted and unloved by her own mother for just merely existing while you simmer in your resentment and jealousy towards her because you are not the priority in your husband's life that you feel you should be, because he can be open and loving towards your daughter......and less so, towards you.

    I think you need immediate counselling..... did you have post natal depression? Did you ever get counselling about your own upbringing?
    I think you need it urgently, because you are not just further damaging yourself, but your husband and creating the same psychological and emotional damage to your daughter that was done to you. If you had a difficult upbringing, then you need to reach the little girl inside of you and talk to her, listen to her, let her tell her story and let her heal. Only then will you allow yourself to enjoy the relationship, the marriage and the family you have, and the daughter I'm sure deep down you do love, and will show love to.

    I'm not disinterested in being a parent. I just hate the stereotype that just because I'm female that it somehow should come naturally to me over a man or that certain traits are intrinsically female or male when they are not.

    It's just my efforts never seem to change the dynamic. I do take her out, spend time with her etc. She just prefers dad. That's all.

    I like going out with her, it's just when my husband and I go out there is nothing for us to talk about because we see each other all the time. We also don't agree on a number of topics so I can't discuss them without getting into an argument with him. It's not really a fun and exciting relationship. He's also stingy when it comes to affection.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    seamus wrote: »
    This, jesus this.

    The more you reveal, the more it becomes clear that you're holding your husband and daughter (and his family), to a family standard that's unattainable, and probably changes from year to year.

    If your only frame of reference is the terrible family dynamic that you come from, then it seems like that what you envision in your mind as the ideal family is one which is the exact opposite of the one you came from. And when your own family doesn't meet that, something must be wrong - with them. No family is perfect. Just because an upbringing was awful, doesn't mean everything they did was wrong. Likewise, a great upbringing doesn't mean every decision was right.

    You do put everything in terms of things done to you, against you. You frame everything from the perspective of how others interact, you never mention how you interact. Which means introspection and self-critique is probably not a strong point for you. Your self-esteem may be low (understandable from your background), so you avoid confronting your own failings at all costs.

    Even your last post:

    "I'm not really jealous so much as disappointed and threatened. "

    Jealous is personal failure. An admission of jealousy means you're showing weakness, and you may be wrong.

    Disappointment is not; disappointment means someone else has failed you.

    "Threatened" means that someone else is attacking you.

    If you were to ask me to list some of the emotions that make up jealousy, "disappointed" and "threatened" would be top of the list.

    You are jealous, but you instantly went on the defensive when someone suggested it. And rather than accept, "yeah, maybe I am", you turned it around to try and say, "I'm not weak, I'm under attack".

    You need counselling. You need to learn how to be introspective. You need to learn that showing weakness is OK, that self-critique is OK, and admitting when we're wrong is essential to a strong relationship.

    A common thread throughout this and the other discussion is emotional coldness. You don't feel as close to anyone as you would like to be. That's not because other people are shying away from you, it's because you're shying away from them, and from yourself.

    You would feel threatened by someone who threatens divorce everytime you get into an argument.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    professore wrote: »
    That's true but the OPs husband doesn't seem to be like this. His family are.

    He actually agrees with his family but doesn't put it into practice. He says he agrees with them but goes and does something different.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    pwurple wrote: »
    What do you think loyalty is? Leaving his family for you over this nothingness? Never disagreeing with you on any point?
    Honestly. This sounds like massive offense being taken to the smallest passing bit of conversation. I can't understand the sensitivities and perceived slights myself. Nothing on this thread sounds like anything more serious than banter. Do you have similar lists of enemies at work as well? People who have crossed you in some way?

    I'm as feminist as they come, but I am well able to entertain a conversation on it without wanting to do dramatic storm offs into the countryside with just a bunch of yes-men to follow me. You can disagree and still get along you know.

    In fact, in respect of him, and who he is, you should be making an effort to get along with his family. We all do that for the most part.

    Loyalty means taking a stand with me, appreciating my opinions and point of view, and defending it with me to them. Loyalty means standing up for me no matter what. I don't see that in my husband and I don't trust that he would have unwavering loyalty to me.

    'passing conversation' or 'banter' well I don't find it enjoyable or fun. I actually don't find my in-laws to be enjoyable people. I don't enjoy ANY of the conversations they have. I have nothing in common with them and they are not people that I would choose to associate with if it were not for this marriage. I dread having to spend any time with them. No, I don't want to put any effort into that thanks. They never ask me any questions about myself or my experiences. They put zero effort into me either. This is not a family that I'm happy to be married into - 2 drug addicts, a shallow unhinged SIL, a nasty FIL. No.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,390 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Your problem is with your husband, not your in laws. There shouldn't be threats of divorce every time you have an argument. You need to sort out your relationship, forget about your in laws.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,390 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    karen42 wrote: »

    I like going out with her, it's just when my husband and I go out there is nothing for us to talk about because we see each other all the time. We also don't agree on a number of topics so I can't discuss them without getting into an argument with him. It's not really a fun and exciting relationship. He's also stingy when it comes to affection.

    Most husbands and wives see each other all the time and still find stuff to talk about.

    Why did you marry this man? You don't have anything to talk about by your own admission, you can't have reasonable arguments without threats of divorce, and you don't seem to agree on fundamental issues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    Most husbands and wives see each other all the time and still find stuff to talk about.

    Why did you marry this man? You don't have anything to talk about by your own admission, you can't have reasonable arguments without threats of divorce, and you don't seem to agree on fundamental issues.

    Because things changed after we had a child and I just wasn't aware of how big of an impact in-laws could have on a marriage. My mother never married so she wouldn't know either.

    After we had a child he was less affectionate, and less interested in marriage and tires easily. He really changed after the child.


  • Administrators Posts: 14,743 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    karen42 wrote: »
    'passing conversation' or 'banter' well I don't find it enjoyable or fun. I actually don't find my in-laws to be enjoyable people. I don't enjoy ANY of the conversations they have. I have nothing in common with them and they are not people that I would choose to associate with if it were not for this marriage. I dread having to spend any time with them. This is not a family that I'm happy to be married into - 2 drug addicts, a shallow unhinged SIL, a nasty FIL. No.

    I could have written this about my in-laws, apart from a minor change of 1 drug addict and the rest of the family functioning alcoholics. I am not friends with any of them. They are not the type of people I would know, let alone socialise with if it wasn't for my husband. I am not I'm contact with any of them, and I see them very very rarely.. "big" birthdays maybe every few years.

    You don't like your husband, you don't like your in-laws. Maybe your husband is on to something and separating is inevitable for you. You don't seem at all happy in this marriage and it also also seems like there are fundamental differences between you and your husband that are never going to be resolved. Your husband is unlikely to get 100% custody of your daughter. It would be incredibly rare, and he would have to prove that you are totally unfit as a parent. But, that doesn't mean that things wouldn't get ugly in a separation. Things already get ugly as it is. Your in-laws are only a side issue here. Your relationship with your husband isn't good. And neither of you seem to have the skill or inclination to want to fix that.

    I don't really know what advice people can offer you. It takes 2 to make a marriage work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    OP, i dont want to be harsh here but i really think you could be the main issue here and not the "others" as you seem to think they are. you seem to think everybody is against you - even your own child comes in for accusations here somewhat.

    you need to sit back, stop thinking the world is against you and focus first and foremost on your family - ie your husband and child. stop focusing on petty arguments about who is saying or doing what. if you dont, you will torment yourself and ultimately destroy what appears to be a very good family that you have.

    i wish you the best of luck and hope it works out...if you make the effort and ease off on the paranoia/jealously, it will.

    You are probably right but I don't know how wonderful this family is if my needs and wants are never considered. That's the problem. I don't want sexist in-laws and I want a husband who would immediately shut them down. Not sure exactly what this family does for me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,093 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    Honestly, OP, given your last few posts I have absolutely no idea why you're still with this man. You don't seem to particularly even like him, let alone love him.


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  • Administrators Posts: 14,743 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    karen42 wrote: »
    I don't want sexist in-laws and I want a husband who would immediately shut them down.

    Well that's not what you have, and you're not likely to ever have it in this particular set up.

    So if you want something different, you are going to have to find something different. But be careful of wanting to find a husband who will immediately, and always go against his family for you. People have history, and have relationships that you won't be part of. That will always be the case.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,390 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    karen42 wrote: »
    I don't want sexist in-laws and I want a husband who would immediately shut them down.


    You're still placing the in laws problem ahead of the problem with your husband. I'd be far more concerned of the threats of divorce, being turfed out of the house, losing child custody when you argue, over the issues with your sexist in laws. You're married to him, not them. Sort your issues (if you want to) with your husband first.


  • Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭Just her


    Hi OP, I'm trying to deal with some issues I have with people I don't agree with either so this is what I've found and what is helping me. What I focus on expands, be it positive or negative, and I know how having negative emotions around someone you have to be around can really affect you. I find if I focus on positive things in my life it helps so much, I think about the people and things I love when I am around the people I have difficulty with and try to bring up as much positive emotions up in me as I can. I do the same when they come into my head before and after I will be in their company. It's early days but it is definitely helping me and I'm happier for it. I've found that you just cannot change other people, they are ingrained in their thinking , brought up in a way that's hard to shake ( for example you cannot make them stop being sexist anymore than they could make you start being sexist!) so I think of it that we are all just trying to get on as best we can in this world, that people have difficulties in their lives you cannot see, so I try to cut them as much slack as possible and try to see the good in them as their is bound to be some good there if you look for it. As an aside I think maybe people can sometimes enjoy getting a reaction out of you whether consciously or unconsciously so try to not show that what they say bothers you. There will always be some one in your life that you won't see eye to eye with so I find it better for myself to manage my own emotions, expectations and reactions as best I can. I'm focusing on my own happiness which I think has to come from within. Best of luck OP x


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    You're still placing the in laws problem ahead of the problem with your husband. I'd be far more concerned of the threats of divorce, being turfed out of the house, losing child custody when you argue, over the issues with your sexist in laws. You're married to him, not them. Sort your issues (if you want to) with your husband first.

    I guess 90%+ of our arguments are about his family. For example, we had our daughter's birthday party in a neutral place and we bought an expensive cake. His sister came over to our house afterwards and that's when the trouble started.

    She was really nosy and out of line scolding us for buying an expensive cake and telling us where we should have had the birthday party. She's done that before with other items that we have bought or our rent. I don't know why she does this.

    I didn't say anything to her but I tried to talk to my husband afterwards and we got into an argument.


  • Administrators Posts: 14,743 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    Your sister in law expressed an opinion. People do it all the time. Whether to your face or behind your back. I don't know why you had an argument with your husband, over what your sister-in-law said! He can't control her. He can't make her have a different opinion. There are people in my life that tell me what they think I should do, sometimes I listen to the advice because sometimes it's relevant. Other times I say I'm happy with my choice, other times I say nothing at all.

    How old are you, OP? Because I think I might have been a bit like you up to mid-late 20s. At that age you're establishing yourself as an adult, and a mother, and you want people to accept that you're an adult and capable of making your own decisions for yourself, and your family. It can feel like a personal affront of someone suggests something else. And you feel the need to stamp your own authority and let others know you don't need their opinion.

    As we get older, we get better at filtering "advice". My mother used to drive me scatty with her opinion on what I did. But you know what, she wasn't always wrong. I just wanted to prove I was always right. As I head in to my 40s now, I've mellowed a lot. I realise that yes, I know what works best in my own family, but that doesn't mean I can't pick up ideas from others.

    I also think an expensive birthday cake for a small child is a waste, by the way! We have used everything from Tesco/Aldi traybakes to 2 side by side Vienettas for cakes, and kids devour them exactly the same as they would an expensive cake. A friend of mine paid €120 for a cake for her child's birthday recently, and said never again!

    You don't like your sister-in-law, or any of your husband's side (including him), so you will never take anything any of them say on board. It doesn't mean that what they say isn't valid. Maybe, if your marriage survives the next few years, you will mellow out and realise that people talk all the time. And people pass opinion all the time. And you have the choice to take that on board or ignore it. But you will never, ever be able to stop it.

    Best you will be able to do is not hear it by not being around these people. But they'll still talk about you. You just have to learn to not care so much about what others think. If YOU are happy and confident in your own choices then other people's opinion won't affect you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,411 ✭✭✭✭woodchuck


    OP why do you let the sister in law wind you up so much? So what if she makes some remarks. Perhaps they're a little rude, but that's all. People have opinions. People talk. What do you expect your husband to do about this? He can't control what his sister says and thinks.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    karen42 wrote: »
    I guess 90%+ of our arguments are about his family. For example, we had our daughter's birthday party in a neutral place and we bought an expensive cake. His sister came over to our house afterwards and that's when the trouble started.

    She was really nosy and out of line scolding us for buying an expensive cake and telling us where we should have had the birthday party. She's done that before with other items that we have bought or our rent. I don't know why she does this.

    I didn't say anything to her but I tried to talk to my husband afterwards and we got into an argument.

    OP I've gotten told what way to decorate my house, how to cut my hair, how much make-up to wear and comments on my clothes from siblings, my mother and friends. They have their opinion on it but I don't let it wind me up and I don't hold anyone to account to make them stop having those opinions. That's all they are - opinions. Yes your sister-in-law sounds like a very vocally opinionated person but that doesn't mean that you have to pay any heed to it. Just let it roll off you - like water off a ducks back.

    She does it because she has opinions on how things should be done. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong.

    And your husband can't be held responsible for making her stop sharing these opinions. He might not agree at all but maybe has learned to just let her talk and get it out and ignore it all. Or maybe he agrees with some of it and doesn't know how to raise it but knows his sister will so lets that be the start of the conversation. Not the best way to handle it if it is that but no ones perfect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    Your sister in law expressed an opinion. People do it all the time. Whether to your face or behind your back. I don't know why you had an argument with your husband, over what your sister-in-law said! He can't control her. He can't make her have a different opinion. There are people in my life that tell me what they think I should do, sometimes I listen to the advice because sometimes it's relevant. Other times I say I'm happy with my choice, other times I say nothing at all.

    How old are you, OP? Because I think I might have been a bit like you up to mid-late 20s. At that age you're establishing yourself as an adult, and a mother, and you want people to accept that you're an adult and capable of making your own decisions for yourself, and your family. It can feel like a personal affront of someone suggests something else. And you feel the need to stamp your own authority and let others know you don't need their opinion.

    As we get older, we get better at filtering "advice". My mother used to drive me scatty with her opinion on what I did. But you know what, she wasn't always wrong. I just wanted to prove I was always right. As I head in to my 40s now, I've mellowed a lot. I realise that yes, I know what works best in my own family, but that doesn't mean I can't pick up ideas from others.

    I also think an expensive birthday cake for a small child is a waste, by the way! We have used everything from Tesco/Aldi traybakes to 2 side by side Vienettas for cakes, and kids devour them exactly the same as they would an expensive cake. A friend of mine paid €120 for a cake for her child's birthday recently, and said never again!

    You don't like your sister-in-law, or any of your husband's side (including him), so you will never take anything any of them say on board. It doesn't mean that what they say isn't valid. Maybe, if your marriage survives the next few years, you will mellow out and realise that people talk all the time. And people pass opinion all the time. And you have the choice to take that on board or ignore it. But you will never, ever be able to stop it.

    Best you will be able to do is not hear it by not being around these people. But they'll still talk about you. You just have to learn to not care so much about what others think. If YOU are happy and confident in your own choices then other people's opinion won't affect you.

    Yes, I'd fall into that age bracket. I don't want anyone questioning my authority when it comes to my own life. It's my money, my life, my choices, and I don't want advice or people even going there especially from certain people.

    I really don't care what other people are doing especially when it comes to money. I don't care if your rent or mortgage is 4k, 10k on a cake, or you spent 500 on a jacket. It's not my problem. I don't understand why someone would care.

    I also don't find my in-laws to be a credible source. I don't think they are admirable, highly intelligent/successful people. I don't value their opinion. I would value the opinion of someone who was 'above' me or successful in an area that I want to be successful in.

    They have a lot of lifestyle habits that I don't agree with such as smoking, living off the state, doing drugs at times, staying with unfaithful partners, and (this one I might get into trouble for) but co-habitation. I just don't agree with it. But... I'm not close to them so I also don't care what they are doing or what they chose to do.

    I generally don't give my opinions to anyone without asking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭karen42


    woodchuck wrote: »
    OP why do you let the sister in law wind you up so much? So what if she makes some remarks. Perhaps they're a little rude, but that's all. People have opinions. People talk. What do you expect your husband to do about this? He can't control what his sister says and thinks.
    OP I've gotten told what way to decorate my house, how to cut my hair, how much make-up to wear and comments on my clothes from siblings, my mother and friends. They have their opinion on it but I don't let it wind me up and I don't hold anyone to account to make them stop having those opinions. That's all they are - opinions. Yes your sister-in-law sounds like a very vocally opinionated person but that doesn't mean that you have to pay any heed to it. Just let it roll off you - like water off a ducks back.

    She does it because she has opinions on how things should be done. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong.

    And your husband can't be held responsible for making her stop sharing these opinions. He might not agree at all but maybe has learned to just let her talk and get it out and ignore it all. Or maybe he agrees with some of it and doesn't know how to raise it but knows his sister will so lets that be the start of the conversation. Not the best way to handle it if it is that but no ones perfect.

    He can tell her to stop coming into our house and telling us how to live our lives. He can tell her that her opinion is not wanted and not to be so rude.

    I have my own opinions about them and their lives. Not too much of it is pleasant and I don't share it with them. Like I wouldn't walk into their house and say 'oh it's so disgusting how you smoke, why do you do it'. I wouldn't have the guts to do that lol

    I guess I don't like opinionated people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Does he side with his family when they are spouting off or does he let it slide off him like water off a duck's back?

    I don't agree with certain members of my family and they can be quite opinionated at times but I'm still fond of them. If they are going off about something I don't agree with, it goes in one ear and out the other. I'm here for a good time, not a long time as they say and picking arguments with family over things that really don't matter in the grand scheme of things really wouldn't interest me. At the end of it all, despite some idealogical differences between some of us, we all enjoy each others company when we meet up.

    You seem to have a very low opinion of his family, which I'm presuming he doesn't share and so he still wants to hang around with them from time to time. I'm guessing you want your husband to say something to his sister about being opinionated but he has no interest in doing it because he doesn't want to damage his relationship with her? And because of that, you think he's showing loyalty to his family over you? To me, it looks like its a rock and a hard place situation for him. Can you not adopt a live and let live attitude to his family? Whatever nonsense they say or whatever they are pass remarkable, it will have no effect on how you live your life if you don't let it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,514 ✭✭✭bee06


    karen42 wrote: »
    I guess I don't like opinionated people.

    Pretty ironic considering you are very opinionated yourself. The only difference is you don’t give your opinions to their faces.

    Some people like to give advice even if it’s totally unwanted. My brother in law is like this. When he tells me things we should to with our house, how to raise our baby or whatever I nod and smile and promptly forget about it.


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