BMW 3 Series EV

liamog

First spy shots of BMWs Model 3 killer

https://insideevs.com/electric-bmw-3-series-spied-sporting-fake-exhaust-tips/

unkel

For 2020 on Irish plates maybe? Same time as Tesla Model 3? If BMW can get the batteries it will be a serious competitor. Quite likely the better car.

stesaurus

Kia Niro for 2019 and then back to BMW for 2020, yes please

unkel

You dying to get rid of your 330e already?

stesaurus

unkel wrote: »

You dying to get rid of your 330e already?

Dying no but you need to baby it to get any decent mpg. I was spoilt with the i3 and not having to visit petrol stations. It's not really a master of any trades really but hey I got it at a great price and have put 20,000km on it already.

The Niro should hold most of its value until we see what comes from all the Germans in 2020. E-Tron looks nice but its outside of what i'd be willing to pay.

You staying with the Ioniq or going to try cash in while its still at its peak?

unkel

Plan was to buy Model 3 (or indeed 3-series EV), but we got a dog since, so need hatchback

Not much point "upgrading" to Niro next year as I rarely need the range

FriendsEV

unkel wrote: »

For 2020 on Irish plates maybe? Same time as Tesla Model 3? If BMW can get the batteries it will be a serious competitor. Quite likely the better car.

Tesla are screwed when battery supply is not an issue in a few years time

3 series will be a better car for sure

Hyundai are not even trying and already the Kona is more important Tesla has ever made in terms of bang for buck

What are Tesla going to do when they have built 5 gigafactories and then demand drops like a rock when Mercedes, BMW, Audi, VW, Koreans, Japs have better cars out in a few years time?

Could be a horrible end

stesaurus

FriendsEV wrote: »

Tesla are screwed when battery supply is not an issue in a few years time

3 series will be a better car for sure

Hyundai are not even trying and already the Kona is more important Tesla has ever made in terms of bang for buck

What are Tesla going to do when they have built 5 gigafactories and then demand drops like a rock when Mercedes, BMW, Audi, VW, Koreans, Japs have better cars out in a few years time?

Could be a horrible end

Supply batteries perhaps? And we're a good few years away from anyone else having the manufacturing capabilities for batteries that Tesla do. Massive profit potential there.

He's on record as wanting to be a catalyst for change and I think he's succeeded in that. He's made EVs desirable and possible. In a few years his company can walk away from manufacturing cars and stick to whatever niche they find themselves in. Be it batteries, autonomous driving or software for such.
Shareholders might disagree and feel they should try to dominate manufacturing and continue tha Car brand but maybe that's why he's trying to take back control.

Also just spitballing on this but i honestly think the next generation don't give two hoots about what is going to be a better car. We do as we're mainly enthusiasts on a motoring forum but we're a tiny portion of the market. A bland shiny Tesla with a one trick acceleration gimmick might just be more desirable to the market then actual drivers cars in the future. Most of our society these days is about image and what's new or on trend. Capture that audience and who cars what BMW do next. They'll just want their Tesla iPhone 6 etc.

No doubt it will be a fantastic car. Might not have the 0-60 of a Model 3 but it could have better handling, steering , ride quality, interior quality than the Model 3, it could very well offer Model 3 performance and more but it will come at a cost in a BMW.

Most of all the 3 series EV has the premium badge a lot of people desire. Tesla isn't a premium brand but could sell well nonetheless.
I think people will buy the 3 series EV and Model 3 for different reasons.

NIMAN

Question re: test car.

Why the silly paint scheme?

I'm assuming its to hide shape of car, but tbh it looks like a standard 3 series body, nothing out of the ordinary

PaulKK

stesaurus wrote: »

A bland shiny Tesla with a one trick acceleration gimmick might just be more desirable to the market then actual drivers cars in the future. Most of our society these days is about image and what's new or on trend. Capture that audience and who cars what BMW do next. They'll just want their Tesla iPhone 6 etc.

I think that might be true for electronics etc but most people don't care about cars. They will just buy whatever Hyundai or Kia are flogging for a reasonable price once they don't look too unusal.

Most people not "into" cars would never consider a BMW etc and I'd guess that most of them wouldnt go for the relatively unheard of "Tesla" brand either. You'd be surprised how little the average punter knows about Tesla.

Silent Running

NIMAN wrote: »

Question re: test car.

Why the silly paint scheme?

I'm assuming its to hide shape of car, but tbh it looks like a standard 3 series body, nothing out of the ordinary

I'd be more concerned about the two exhausts sticking out the back. Is that cooling pipes for the battery pack? Oh right fake. ;)

Bigus

liamog wrote: »

First spy shots of BMWs Model 3 killer

if that's a model 3 killer I'll eat me Míckey.

How the hell would BMW market 4,5 ,6 ,7 EV's if they make a 3 series a model 3 killer, it ain't gonna happen as it doesn't fit their antiquated business model .

Also it's not a clean sheet design , so it's encumbered by legacy ICE constraints.

Plus the supply of batteries will constrain them , never mind the fact than Elon bought their assembly robot manufacturer out from under them.

I might risk being called a Tesla fanboy , but I can see what tech disrupters do to legacy industries, in the recent past , and the motor industry is next .

As someone said on an EV forum a few years ago , if they were big BMW shareholders or member of the Quandt family , they would sell off BMW and take the "i" division out and invest billions in this alone .
However best of luck to the Germans , more EV role out required.

liamog

NIMAN wrote: »

Question re: test car.

Why the silly paint scheme?

I'm assuming its to hide shape of car, but tbh it looks like a standard 3 series body, nothing out of the ordinary

It's the G20 3 Series due to be revealed at Paris this year. The paint schemes are designed to prevent good views of the car body, they often also have fake padding and in this case exhaust tips.

FriendsEV

The 325e looks impressive

150bhp 1.5l turbo petrol and 115bhp electric motor for a combined 265bhp ( more than original 330e)

Battery around 10kWh useable for 50-60km driving, under 2 litres of petrol used for 100km

At least diesels are gone

liamog

Bigus wrote: »

if that's a model 3 killer I'll eat me Míckey.

How the hell would BMW market 4,5 ,6 ,7 EV's if they make a 3 series a model 3 killer, it ain't gonna happen as it doesn't fit their antiquated business model .

Also it's not a clean sheet design , so it's encumbered by legacy ICE constraints.

Plus the supply of batteries will constrain them , never mind the fact than Elon bought their assembly robot manufacturer out from under them.

A full EV 3 Series should sell well, so far the stats show that people are switching from the 3 Series, Prius, Leafs, Accords, and Civics. BMW are right to launch an EV 3 Series to stop the loss of customers.


BMW have signed a multi billion dollar agreement with CATL, so battery supply shouldn't be an issue, German auto makers are masters of supply chain management, they don't need to be vertically integrated to be successful.

PaulKK

FriendsEV wrote: »

The 325e looks impressive

150bhp 1.5l turbo petrol and 115bhp electric motor for a combined 265bhp ( more than original 330e)

Battery around 10kWh useable for 50-60km driving, under 2 litres of petrol used for 100km

At least diesels are gone

That looks great, but would a 20kWh battery for say 100km range not really make it an attractive option?

It shouldn't push the cost up much?

I'm selfishly thinking of my own usage which would be an 80km round trip daily.

Great to see these kind of options come along regardless.

unkel

PaulKK wrote: »

That looks great, but would a 20kWh battery for say 100km range not really make it an attractive option?

It shouldn't push the cost up much?

Much of a muchness. Stick in a 50kWh battery and get rid of all the ICE components would mean a similar enough price to the consumer in many EU countries after incentives and you would end up with a far superior, much faster car that has near zero running costs. In other words - an EV - the future

FriendsEV

PaulKK wrote: »

That looks great, but would a 20kWh battery for say 100km range not really make it an attractive option?

It shouldn't push the cost up much?

I'm selfishly thinking of my own usage which would be an 80km round trip daily.

Great to see these kind of options come along regardless.

Yes 20kWh and the nice turbo petrol is perfect

A good 100km easy

It could happen soon, I hope

@ Unkel a 3 series is going to need more than 50kWh battery, motorway cars like them need 75kWh minimum and that ain't cheap or freely available

Nearly every manufacturer is going part electricification

If the autogiants want to keep combustion engine they should be clever and offer 20kWh phev

I would take a 20kWh and nice turbo petrol 3 series over a full BEV

I do way less than 100km daily and for long journeys I don't mind spending 30e on petrol once in a while

unkel

FriendsEV wrote: »

@ Unkel a 3 series is going to need more than 50kWh battery

Nope. 50kWh is fine for a base premium car for now. It will provide far more range than 95% of owners will need for 95% of their journeys.

PaulKK

unkel wrote: »

Much of a muchness. Stick in a 50kWh battery and get rid of all the ICE components would mean a similar enough price to the consumer in many EU countries after incentives and you would end up with a far superior, much faster car that has near zero running costs. In other words - an EV - the future

True but the point I think, is that people won't mass adopt BEV until the range is 500km+, i.e similar to an ICE car.

It doesn't matter that 95% of journeys are less than 200km a day or whatever, I don't think people can get over the range anxiety.

To be honest I am one of them. It's all fine and idealistic to say I only do 80km per day so really a 100/120km range BEV should suit my needs perfectly. What if there's an emergency and I need to travel to Dublin or Cork quickly when I get home from work, 120km or 160km away?

There is no way I would buy a BEV until a situation like that would not be a concern. That is where something like 100km battery and ICE backup seems like a great option, for now at least. 95% of the time you are running on electric, and you have the ICE if you ever need it.

Sure it adds complexity but it's a great stepping stone.

FriendsEV

unkel wrote: »

Nope. 50kWh is fine for a base premium car for now. It will provide far more range than 95% of owners will need for 95% of their journeys.

Not for 40k it ain't

ted1

unkel wrote: »

FriendsEV wrote: »

@ Unkel a 3 series is going to need more than 50kWh battery

Nope. 50kWh is fine for a base premium car for now. It will provide far more range than 95% of owners will need for 95% of their journeys.

People want cars that are 100% useful.

Gumbo

PaulKK wrote: »

True but the point I think, is that people won't mass adopt BEV until the range is 500km+, i.e similar to an ICE car.

It doesn't matter that 95% of journeys are less than 200km a day or whatever, I don't think people can get over the range anxiety.

To be honest I am one of them. It's all fine and idealistic to say I only do 80km per day so really a 100/120km range BEV should suit my needs perfectly. What if there's an emergency and I need to travel to Dublin or Cork quickly when I get home from work, 120km or 160km away?

There is no way I would buy a BEV until a situation like that would not be a concern. That is where something like 100km battery and ICE backup seems like a great option, for now at least. 95% of the time you are running on electric, and you have the ICE if you ever need it.

Sure it adds complexity but it's a great stepping stone.

I understand that mindset, and that the mindset needs to be altered for people to adapt.

The thing is, what type of emergency would need you to drive to Cork, for example?

I always get asked that when people ask me about the Leaf, what if you had to drive to cork..... I'm 37 years old now, ive driven to cork once in my life! And that was for a night away so planned.

FriendsEV

ted1 wrote: »

People want cars that are 100% useful.

I know

The horror of spending 20e on petrol

Which we have done for 50 years

ELM327

kceire wrote: »

I understand that mindset, and that the mindset needs to be altered for people to adapt.
.

I wholeheartedly disagree
People will adapt when the technology improves to a point where its not a step back from where we are today.,
It has been shown from 2011 to now that price incentives do not work.
The range issue and the slow recharging is too much.


I wonder how many people would take a new EV with 200-300km range for free on the condition that they cannot sell it for 3 years. Probably not many.


Therefore the technology needs to improve. Kona and model 3 are getting there but the charging is not fast enough and not plentiful enough.


Charging at 10C (20C+ exists already in laboratories it can't be taht far away) would allow an 80kWh battery to charge at 800kW and refill in 6 minutes. Maybe thats 6 minutes to say 85% allowing for tapering. Now that would be mass adopted for sure. But we're not there yet. Not by some margin. Even 100k+ Teslas don't charge at above 1.5-2C. Ioniq is by far the best at 2.8C but even that is pathetic

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

People want cars that are 100% useful.

And people want places to charge, the current fast charge network is absolutely disgraceful !

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

And people want places to charge, the current fast charge network is absolutely disgraceful !

BMW have Ionity, a BMW driver would not be seeing plugging into a commoners charger point

Shefwedfan

ted1 wrote: »

People want cars that are 100% useful.

Majority of 3 series is Ireland travel less than 100km per day.


They are not bought for driving long distance, they are bought because they have a BMW badge.....


50kWh will be more than required for 90%+ of 3 series drivers

Shefwedfan

Bigus wrote: »

if that's a model 3 killer I'll eat me Míckey.

How the hell would BMW market 4,5 ,6 ,7 EV's if they make a 3 series a model 3 killer, it ain't gonna happen as it doesn't fit their antiquated business model .

Also it's not a clean sheet design , so it's encumbered by legacy ICE constraints.

Plus the supply of batteries will constrain them , never mind the fact than Elon bought their assembly robot manufacturer out from under them.

I might risk being called a Tesla fanboy , but I can see what tech disrupters do to legacy industries, in the recent past , and the motor industry is next .

As someone said on an EV forum a few years ago , if they were big BMW shareholders or member of the Quandt family , they would sell off BMW and take the "i" division out and invest billions in this alone .
However best of luck to the Germans , more EV role out required.

This excuse about batteries is getting a little old now.....You would swear Tesla are the only company that can make a battery.



The 3 series will sell and by the bucket load because it is a BMW.....

Also saying it is not a clean sheet design? have you seen any of the other 3 series over last 20-30 years....hardly dramatic styling changes



Any other questions can be answered by the same response "Who cares, it has a BMW badge" :D:D

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

BMW have Ionity, a BMW driver would not be seeing plugging into a commoners charger point

Unless chargers are everywhere like petrol pumps then people will have real issues with electric cars and it won't matter whether people can charge at home or not if they want to go away for a week or two or a weekend etc.

That's like saying people can leave home with a full tank of petrol and have to find a few scattered petrol pumps and maybe have to queue for a half hour to 1 hour, people would not tolerate that either.

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Unless chargers are everywhere like petrol pumps then people will have real issues with electric cars and it won't matter whether people can charge at home or not if they want to go away for a week or two or a weekend etc.

That's like saying people can leave home with a full tank of petrol and have to find a few scattered petrol pumps and maybe have to queue for a half hour to 1 hour, people would not tolerate that either.

If BMW are selling lots of 3 series they will install a charger network.....


The old PHEV i3 really is not making the margin to invest.



All of this as I mentioned is of little significance to the Irish driver, the 3 series will have 500km range on the base model. Standard trip in 3 series will be 100km roundtrip on day to day....for a weekend trip, really you going to drive 500km in Ireland?

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If BMW are selling lots of 3 series they will install a charger network.....

Not good enough at all, they need to be installing tonnes of chargers now before people start buying, one of the major turn offs is lack of chargers and in stupid locations.

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Not good enough at all, they need to be installing tonnes of chargers now before people start buying, one of the major turn offs is lack of chargers and in stupid locations.

Not really.....installation of Ionity chargers along major routes as already planned will meet requirements.....2 is in planning didn't I read?

BMW 3 series BEV will be out in 2020, that gives them 2 years or more before they need the infrastructure in place.

Ioniq and Kona have no network or no plans for a network in place. Neither does Kia. Haven't seen a Nissan network in place? or even a sniff of one. They seem to be selling ok......

You might want one now, because you are a current driver. The current 3 series diesel driver doesn't give a s**t. He will in 2 years time when he is buying an electric car.....

Who is to say that BMW don't go an buy Tesla in the morning and take over the network? or just sign up a deal to use Tesla network, according to Tesla they are open to other cars using it......or a BP decides to buy out a chain of garage in Ireland and sticks fast chargers into them all to wrap up the market?

If I was in BMW/VW I wouldn't be throwing away money on a network till you have to....let Tesla be the test dummies

I really don't care who installs the network, I want to be able to charge when I need to without the possibility of queuing.

Motorway charging is good but they need a lot more than motorway chargers. There's a lot of people out there who won't have home charging.

I can have 50-60 Kwh, when I need the Network the most is when I go away and have no home charging.

liamog

Year to date there are 1,397 EVs added to Irish roads, compared to 628 this time last year.
Over 50% with barely any change in the infrastructure situation.

Adoption is being driven by the increased range of available cars, by the time EV 3 Series is released it could conceivably carry a 75kWh battery for the same price as the current 64kWh batteries currently cost.

Shefwedfan

liamog wrote: »

Year to date there are 1,397 EVs added to Irish roads, compared to 628 this time last year.
Over 50% with barely any change in the infrastructure situation.

Adoption is being driven by the increased range of available cars, by the time EV 3 Series is released it could conceivably carry a 75kWh battery for the same price as the current 64kWh batteries currently cost.

it will have a 500km range and still 99% of its life it will do a daily distance you could do in a Leaf 24.....

FriendsEV

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And people want places to charge, the current fast charge network is absolutely disgraceful !

Our network is fine

They just have to charge for it and charge big

Get those bloody cheap skates off it

FriendsEV

Shefwedfan wrote: »

it will have a 500km range and still 99% of its life it will do a daily distance you could do in a Leaf 24.....

Yeah we should sell cars with 7 litre petrol tanks too

All they use

FriendsEV

liamog wrote: »

Year to date there are 1,397 EVs added to Irish roads, compared to 628 this time last year.
Over 50% with barely any change in the infrastructure situation.

Adoption is being driven by the increased range of available cars, by the time EV 3 Series is released it could conceivably carry a 75kWh battery for the same price as the current 64kWh batteries currently cost.

Agree

Tesla Model 3 and Hyundai Kona 64kWh are the base level, EV market will explode as they are the standard thats needed

99% of the population who haven't bought an EV are not stupid, I know some posters think they are

Majority of those 1397 EV owners are cheap skates, geeks, crazy commuters, a niche market

Mainstream is close

Shefwedfan

FriendsEV wrote: »

Yeah we should sell cars with 7 litre petrol tanks too

All they use

Is that not the i3 REX?

marklazarcovic

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not good enough at all, they need to be installing tonnes of chargers now before people start buying, one of the major turn offs is lack of chargers and in stupid locations.

I actually think there won't be much need for a huge network within the next decade as rage will be 500 plus easy and people will charge at home once a week mostly, I think it's why the chargers aren't being just horsed in everywhere..

I do think there should be a double charger in every town in the country though.

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Is that not the i3 REX?

Hahahahahahahhahaha

FriendsEV wrote: »

They just have to charge for it and charge big

Get those bloody cheap skates off it

Yes I agree wholeheartedly

FriendsEV wrote: »

Our network is fine

This is nonsensical quite frankly

Shefwedfan

marklazarcovic wrote: »

I actually think there won't be much need for a huge network within the next decade as rage will be 500 plus easy and people will charge at home once a week mostly, I think it's why the chargers aren't being just horsed in everywhere..

I do think there should be a double charger in every town in the country though.

My preference would be out of town altogether. In motorway stations and along motorways. So easy access for commuters.


At the moment the ones in towns are just used by residents who dont want to charge at home because it is free....


Fix the commuter first and then fix the small towns

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ELM327

marklazarcovic wrote: »

I actually think there won't be much need for a huge network within the next decade as rage will be 500 plus easy and people will charge at home once a week mostly, I think it's why the chargers aren't being just horsed in everywhere..

I do think there should be a double charger in every town in the country though.

If every town had 6 fast chargers set up like Tesla and the MSA had like 30+ then that would be fine.
Not everyone does 16k km per year.
I do that in less than 3 months. I did it fine in ICE cars, and do it fine in EV.

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

My preference would be out of town altogether. In motorway stations and along motorways. So easy access for commuters.


At the moment the ones in towns are just used by residents who dont want to charge at home because it is free....


Fix the commuter first and then fix the small towns

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If they are charged at say 30c/kWh then there will be no freeloading
Replace every petrol station with EV fast charging and the country would change over tomorrow.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

If they are charged at say 30c/kWh then there will be no freeloading
Replace every petrol station with EV fast charging and the country would change over tomorrow.

Exactly. A minimal charger to stop the free loading but make it reasonable for people that need to use due to apartment etc....


Still all motorways should have a fast charger with easy access.....Navan is not easy access for M3

unkel

PaulKK wrote: »

True but the point I think, is that people won't mass adopt BEV until the range is 500km+, i.e similar to an ICE car.

How come the overwhelming majority of people do not fill their ICE tank up to to full then, but usually spend €20 on fuel? Because they don't need that kind of range

And should they all of a sudden need to do a longer trip, they'll find a petrol station and fill up. Agreed that this is not as easy in an EV, but that has nothing to do with the range of EVs but everything to do with the charging network

That said, a 500km+ budget EV already exists, the Kona

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

How come the overwhelming majority of people do not fill their ICE tank up to to full then, but usually spend €20 on fuel? Because they don't need that kind of range

And should they all of a sudden need to do a longer trip, they'll find a petrol station and fill up. Agreed that this is not as easy in an EV, but that has nothing to do with the range of EVs but everything to do with the charging network

That said, a 500km+ budget EV already exists, the Kona

If I had a Kona with similar range I would probably top up 1-2 times a week with a nightly charge.



Rest of the week I wouldn't bother charging as the car would be "full"


It's is funny how people can drive around and not fill a car till it is below a qtr empty with maybe 20-60km left of fuel but are unwilling to get their head around a car with 150km range but "full" every morning.....

PaulKK

kceire wrote: »

I understand that mindset, and that the mindset needs to be altered for people to adapt.

The thing is, what type of emergency would need you to drive to Cork, for example?

I always get asked that when people ask me about the Leaf, what if you had to drive to cork..... I'm 37 years old now, ive driven to cork once in my life! And that was for a night away so planned.

I have family in Dublin and Cork. The emergency hospitals for where I live are in Dublin or Waterford.

I also have kids. It's very possible I could just arrive to work and have to immediately go pick them up because they are sick or had an accident. I don't want to have to drive at 100km/hr or worse have to wait 30 mins to charge the car before I can go get them.

I really couldn't be bothered worrying about that crap.

Shefwedfan

PaulKK wrote: »

I have family in Dublin and Cork. The emergency hospitals for where I live are in Dublin or Waterford.

I also have kids. It's very possible I could just arrive to work and have to immediately go pick them up because they are sick or had an accident. I don't want to have to drive at 100km/hr or worse have to wait 30 mins to charge the car before I can go get them.

I really couldn't be bothered worrying about that crap.

Personally I would ring an ambulance if someone had an accident....


Not sure why you mention Dublin/Cork/Waterford?



Do you live in the middle or something? bit of a strange requirement?