General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

Bannasidhe

Cyrus wrote: »

id counter that its the highlighting of fringe cases that has an element of the electorate convinced that they have never had it so bad,

the reality is that in general things are very good.

of course we can do better, but thats always the case.

anyway lets see what sinn feinn can do about it all.

Dismissing record levels of homelessness and people on trolleys as 'fringe cases' is exactly the kind of arrogant dismissal that fueled the surge in SF's vote.
And no - I did not vote SF but I can understand why half a million people did.
Being dismissed as 'fringe cases' when you are voicing very legitimate frustration at working full time but barely making ends meet will do that to an electorate.

Cyrus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Dismissing record levels of homelessness and people on trolleys as 'fringe cases' is exactly the kind of arrogant dismissal that fueled the surge in SF's vote.
And no - I did not vote SF but I can understand why half a million people did.
Being dismissed as 'fringe cases' when you are voicing very legitimate frustration at working full time but barely making ends meet will do that to an electorate.

I’m not dismissing fringe cases but focusing solely on them gives people a distorted view of reality

Scoundrel

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Dismissing record levels of homelessness and people on trolleys as 'fringe cases' is exactly the kind of arrogant dismissal that fueled the surge in SF's vote.
And no - I did not vote SF but I can understand why half a million people did.
Being dismissed as 'fringe cases' when you are voicing very legitimate frustration at working full time but barely making ends meet will do that to an electorate.

Yes the snooty we know better than you attitude IMO has certainly helped the shinners as well FF and FG are going to have to come up with a better strategy than just attacking shinners about the IRA cos the fact is most people down here couldn't care less about the IRA.

Bannasidhe

Cyrus wrote: »

I’m not dismissing fringe cases but focusing solely on them gives people a distorted view of reality

As does focusing only on the so called successful economy.
Yet, that is what we are expected to do.

A country is not just an economy. It is a society.

I would go so far as to say the purpose of the economy is to fund the society.
Far too many people feel that society - and their role in it - is to service the economy.

They have been ignored and dismissed by government for too long - and now those chickens are coming home to roost.

Cyrus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As does focusing only on the so called successful economy.
Yet, that is what we are expected to do.

A country is not just an economy. It is a society.

I would go so far as to say the purpose of the economy is to fund the society.
Far too many people feel that society - and their role in it - is to service the economy.

They have been ignored and dismissed by government for too long - and now those chickens are coming home to roost.

I’d argue people have never had it better yet are being manipulated into thinking things have never been worse

An Ciarraioch

Maybe some communities are feeling the recovery, but there hasn't been much distribution of the growth or investment outside of Dublin so far.

Bannasidhe

Cyrus wrote: »

I’d argue people have never had it better yet are being manipulated into thinking things have never been worse

Would you be willing to pop into the A&E dept in Limerick University Hospital and tell the staff and patients how they are being manipulated and in fact they have never had it better?

Then you can pop along to Cork Penny Dinners and give your never had it so good you are being manipulated pep talk there too.

Your myopia concerning the very real struggles of very real people is astounding.

Cyrus

There will always be people struggling there always has been there always will be

Name me a country where people don’t struggle ?

My point is that a cohort have been convinced that they have it bad when the reality is that they don’t

All people are real people I don’t get your point on that ?

garhjw

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would you be willing to pop into the A&E dept in Limerick University Hospital and tell the staff and patients how they are being manipulated and in fact they have never had it better?

Then you can pop along to Cork Penny Dinners and give your never had it so good you are being manipulated pep talk there too.

Your myopia concerning the very real struggles of very real people is astounding.

Problems with the health service is simply the fault of past government policy and spending. There are other stakeholders not willing to work to make it better - doctor and nurse unions not willing to be flexible in terms of work practices, no accountability for civil servants due to union resistance. Add that to poor policy and you have your problem. Voting for the likes of Sinn Fein will not fix that

PeadarCo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would you be willing to pop into the A&E dept in Limerick University Hospital and tell the staff and patients how they are being manipulated and in fact they have never had it better?

Then you can pop along to Cork Penny Dinners and give your never had it so good you are being manipulated pep talk there too.

Your myopia concerning the very real struggles of very real people is astounding.

If you focus on the worst aspects of any country every place is a hell hole and most countries are even bigger hell holes than Ireland by that measure. This is where perspective comes in. There hasn't been a better time to be living in Ireland in its entire history unless you count the last boom where money was given out hand over fist by the government and the banks and resulted in nearly a decade of austerity.

Why do you consider only certain people to be "real people"? That in itself is very dehumanising that everyone not struggling or just having an OK or better day(anyone can end up in A&E on a bad day) is suddenly not a real person. I doubt that's what you really mean but it's why perspective is very important. Remember for generations life in Ireland was so bad people just emigrated.

An Ciarraioch

Gary Gannon attempts to appease Irish Left Twitter:

https://twitter.com/1GaryGannon/status/1230941301375426565

salonfire

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would you be willing to pop into the A&E dept in Limerick University Hospital and tell the staff and patients how they are being manipulated and in fact they have never had it better?

Then you can pop along to Cork Penny Dinners and give your never had it so good you are being manipulated pep talk there too.

Your myopia concerning the very real struggles of very real people is astounding.

It shows just how good we have it if the sum of the negatives people can point to are such a tiny, tiny % of the population who have to rough it up on a trolley.

Many of the problems within the HSE is caused by the HSE themselves and its staff.

An Ciarraioch

And Catherine Murphy also distances herself from FF and FG:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/soc-dems-joint-leader-unlikely-to-take-part-in-ff-fg-government-1.4181087?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

garhjw

So the soc dems are saying they will never go into government. Strange decision

Dytalus

garhjw wrote: »

So the soc dems are saying they will never go into government. Strange decision

That's...not what they said at all. There's one type of Government they won't support - a FF/FG combination. Presumably FF-only or FF/SF are both coalitions they might consider working with.

Bannasidhe

Too many posts taking me to task - (and calling me an SF voter which I am not but even if I were that is not the point as people have as much right to vote for SF as any other party/candidate.) - for me to respond to them all but there is a clear theme

We have never had it so good, apart from a tiny minority who are manipulated into thinking they are worse off while they 'rough it up on a trolley' (the empathy is not strong in that one). And other countries are worse so be glad you live in Ireland.

All I can say is keep it up. This is exactly the attitude that will drive voters to SF in their droves.
Not me, I'm not inclined to vote for them as I do not agree with some of their policies.

People do not care what it is like in other countries unless they intend to emigrate there.
Over 100k people on trolleys in last year is not a tiny tiny minority - and if each of those have at least 2 close relatives who stayed with them while they were 'roughing it' on a trolley then you have 300k people who will have direct experience of a very real crises and vote accordingly.
I said they are real people as so often they are statistics, numbers in a headline. But if people want to go all drama llama acting like I implied that the comfortable are not real people then off you go. Continue to ignore the point I am making.

Access to health care for those who do not have private health insurance is extremely difficult with lengthy waiting lists. Fact.
There is a bottleneck in A&E depts due to lack of bed in acute hospitals. Fact
Secure, affordable accomodation for low/medium incomes is so rare as to be nearly nonexistent.
Childcare costs are outrageous.
Small businesses are closing due to inability to afford spiralling insurance costs.

Dismiss these people at your peril. They do not care whose fault it is -they want the government to do something to make their lives a bit more affordable.
And if neither FF or FG do something beyond telling them how well the economy is doing these people will vote SF.

road_high

garhjw wrote: »

So the soc dems are saying they will never go into government. Strange decision

Ha ha- no different to any of the other wasters that "won" the election so.

road_high

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Too many posts taking me to task - (and calling me an SF voter which I am not but even if I were that is not the point as people have as much right to vote for SF as any other party/candidate.) - for me to respond to them all but there is a clear theme

We have never had it so good, apart from a tiny minority who are manipulated into thinking they are worse off while they 'rough it up on a trolley' (the empathy is not strong in that one). And other countries are worse so be glad you live in Ireland.

All I can say is keep it up. This is exactly the attitude that will drive voters to SF in their droves.
Not me, I'm not inclined to vote for them as I do not agree with some of their policies.

People do not care what it is like in other countries unless they intend to emigrate there.
Over 100k people on trolleys in last year is not a tiny tiny minority - and if each of those have at least 2 close relatives who stayed with them while they were 'roughing it' on a trolley then you have 300k people who will have direct experience of a very real crises and vote accordingly.
I said they are real people as so often they are statistics, numbers in a headline. But if people want to go all drama llama acting like I implied that the comfortable are not real people then off you go. Continue to ignore the point I am making.

Access to health care for those who do not have private health insurance is extremely difficult with lengthy waiting lists. Fact.
There is a bottleneck in A&E depts due to lack of bed in acute hospitals. Fact
Secure, affordable accomodation for low/medium incomes is so rare as to be nearly nonexistent.
Childcare costs are outrageous.
Small businesses are closing due to inability to afford spiralling insurance costs.

Dismiss these people at your peril. They do not care whose fault it is -they want the government to do something to make their lives a bit more affordable.
And if neither FF or FG do something beyond telling them how well the economy is doing these people will vote SF.

Well let them have SF then- they'll get enough of that very quickly. You can rant and rave all night long but if you have a crap economy you can dream of all the unicorns you want.
Like all shinners- great at pointing out problems- Zero solutions to any of it.

Cyrus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Too many posts taking me to task - (and calling me an SF voter which I am not but even if I were that is not the point as people have as much right to vote for SF as any other party/candidate.) - for me to respond to them all but there is a clear theme

We have never had it so good, apart from a tiny minority who are manipulated into thinking they are worse off while they 'rough it up on a trolley' (the empathy is not strong in that one). And other countries are worse so be glad you live in Ireland.

All I can say is keep it up. This is exactly the attitude that will drive voters to SF in their droves.
Not me, I'm not inclined to vote for them as I do not agree with some of their policies.

People do not care what it is like in other countries unless they intend to emigrate there.
Over 100k people on trolleys in last year is not a tiny tiny minority - and if each of those have at least 2 close relatives who stayed with them while they were 'roughing it' on a trolley then you have 300k people who will have direct experience of a very real crises and vote accordingly.
I said they are real people as so often they are statistics, numbers in a headline. But if people want to go all drama llama acting like I implied that the comfortable are not real people then off you go. Continue to ignore the point I am making.

Access to health care for those who do not have private health insurance is extremely difficult with lengthy waiting lists. Fact.
There is a bottleneck in A&E depts due to lack of bed in acute hospitals. Fact
Secure, affordable accomodation for low/medium incomes is so rare as to be nearly nonexistent.
Childcare costs are outrageous.
Small businesses are closing due to inability to afford spiralling insurance costs.

Dismiss these people at your peril. They do not care whose fault it is -they want the government to do something to make their lives a bit more affordable.
And if neither FF or FG do something beyond telling them how well the economy is doing these people will vote SF.

There is plenty of secure affordable accommodation it just isn’t in the main cities .

Childcare costs reflect the costs of the providers running the business , if we want to make it cheaper you need the government to subsidise it, where does that money come from ? The people who need the childcare ...

And there are waiting lists for free medical care , same everywhere something is free it’s assessed on a needs basis if your need isn’t urgent you wait or you pay

An Ciarraioch

road_high wrote: »

Ha ha- no different to any of the other wasters that "won" the election so.

No, the more likely interpretation is that if/when SF and the left can't get a majority, that they will attempt to get some form of FF buy-in, whether that would be FF-SF-Green-SD, or a confidence and supply agreement.

PeadarCo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Too many posts taking me to task - (and calling me an SF voter which I am not but even if I were that is not the point as people have as much right to vote for SF as any other party/candidate.) - for me to respond to them all but there is a clear theme

We have never had it so good, apart from a tiny minority who are manipulated into thinking they are worse off while they 'rough it up on a trolley' (the empathy is not strong in that one). And other countries are worse so be glad you live in Ireland.

All I can say is keep it up. This is exactly the attitude that will drive voters to SF in their droves.
Not me, I'm not inclined to vote for them as I do not agree with some of their policies.

People do not care what it is like in other countries unless they intend to emigrate there.
Over 100k people on trolleys in last year is not a tiny tiny minority - and if each of those have at least 2 close relatives who stayed with them while they were 'roughing it' on a trolley then you have 300k people who will have direct experience of a very real crises and vote accordingly.
I said they are real people as so often they are statistics, numbers in a headline. But if people want to go all drama llama acting like I implied that the comfortable are not real people then off you go. Continue to ignore the point I am making.

Access to health care for those who do not have private health insurance is extremely difficult with lengthy waiting lists. Fact.
There is a bottleneck in A&E depts due to lack of bed in acute hospitals. Fact
Secure, affordable accomodation for low/medium incomes is so rare as to be nearly nonexistent.
Childcare costs are outrageous.
Small businesses are closing due to inability to afford spiralling insurance costs.

Dismiss these people at your peril. They do not care whose fault it is -they want the government to do something to make their lives a bit more affordable.
And if neither FF or FG do something beyond telling them how well the economy is doing these people will vote SF.

But what you are not acknowledging and what people are generally not good at acknowledging with issues inherent with human negatively bias is how good things are. That's not to say there aren't issues and that there won't be consequences if they not sorted. However saying Ireland is a great place to live does not ignore the housing crisis/health care problems etc etc.

FF, FG, SF, Labour can all try to do stuff but the problems you mention aren't simple if they were they would have been sorted out. However what you don't want to do is make things worse with bad and rushed decisions. Look at Brexit. One of driving factors was that large parts of England particularly the North have been left behind places like London due to a number of different factors. The solution they have arrived at is Brexit which will make the situation even worse. Remember the situation can always be worse.

If you want to reform the health service you need to change work practices, change the mix of staff, upgrade some facilities, downgrade others and build some new ones, look at procurement practices etc. All of these issues means dealing with not only trade unions and medical bodies but different local lobby groups across the country that will lose out as a result of the changes even if the measures improve the overall system. All of these different interest groups are guaranteed to raise a fuss and in nearly all cases resort to protests and or strikes to protect their patch regardless of who is in power unless you are talking about a totalitarian state. And that's just one example. Replicate that across all areas of government.

So yes who ever is in charge needs to sort out the problems and it's in every politicians interest to sort out the problems if they want to stay in their jobs. But people also have to be realistic and back politicians when they face down different lobby groups and make sometimes unpopular decisions.

Good loser

PeadarCo wrote: »

But what you are not acknowledging and what people are generally not good at acknowledging with issues inherent with human negatively bias is how good things are. That's not to say there aren't issues and that there won't be consequences if they not sorted. However saying Ireland is a great place to live does not ignore the housing crisis/health care problems etc etc.

FF, FG, SF, Labour can all try to do stuff but the problems you mention aren't simple if they were they would have been sorted out. However what you don't want to do is make things worse with bad and rushed decisions. Look at Brexit. One of driving factors was that large parts of England particularly the North have been left behind places like London due to a number of different factors. The solution they have arrived at is Brexit which will make the situation even worse. Remember the situation can always be worse.

If you want to reform the health service you need to change work practices, change the mix of staff, upgrade some facilities, downgrade others and build some new ones, look at procurement practices etc. All of these issues means dealing with not only trade unions and medical bodies but different local lobby groups across the country that will lose out as a result of the changes even if the measures improve the overall system. All of these different interest groups are guaranteed to raise a fuss and in nearly all cases resort to protests and or strikes to protect their patch regardless of who is in power unless you are talking about a totalitarian state. And that's just one example. Replicate that across all areas of government.

So yes who ever is in charge needs to sort out the problems and it's in every politicians interest to sort out the problems if they want to stay in their jobs. But people also have to be realistic and back politicians when they face down different lobby groups and make sometimes unpopular decisions.

Spot on there Peadar.


I have yet to hear a PBP spokesperson, or a SF, or an SD ever NOT support a strike. In other words EVERY strike is justified - this is regardless of whether it is taking money/resources from education, the HSE, housing, social work - - you name it.

Bannasidhe

PeadarCo wrote: »

But what you are not acknowledging and what people are generally not good at acknowledging with issues inherent with human negatively bias is how good things are. That's not to say there aren't issues and that there won't be consequences if they not sorted. However saying Ireland is a great place to live does not ignore the housing crisis/health care problems etc etc.

FF, FG, SF, Labour can all try to do stuff but the problems you mention aren't simple if they were they would have been sorted out. However what you don't want to do is make things worse with bad and rushed decisions. Look at Brexit. One of driving factors was that large parts of England particularly the North have been left behind places like London due to a number of different factors. The solution they have arrived at is Brexit which will make the situation even worse. Remember the situation can always be worse.

If you want to reform the health service you need to change work practices, change the mix of staff, upgrade some facilities, downgrade others and build some new ones, look at procurement practices etc. All of these issues means dealing with not only trade unions and medical bodies but different local lobby groups across the country that will lose out as a result of the changes even if the measures improve the overall system. All of these different interest groups are guaranteed to raise a fuss and in nearly all cases resort to protests and or strikes to protect their patch regardless of who is in power unless you are talking about a totalitarian state. And that's just one example. Replicate that across all areas of government.

So yes who ever is in charge needs to sort out the problems and it's in every politicians interest to sort out the problems if they want to stay in their jobs. But people also have to be realistic and back politicians when they face down different lobby groups and make sometimes unpopular decisions.

While there is some truth in what you say, I would counter by saying what people are calling for is a change in political ideology as the current policies - which have dominated for decades - are patiently not working to alleviate the issues.
That, in fact, the are exacerbating them in key areas such as housing.

Wishing to move from a "it's all about the economy stupid" standpoint to a "we are a society first" standpoint is hardly a call for a totalitarian state.
It's people who took the swingeing cut backs, who lost pensions, who paid the (temporary) USC, trucked on through negative equity etc etc - and didn't strike but realised it was in the national good and played ball who are now finding themselves still under pressure while being told we never had it so good.
The Irish people proved themselves will to take the pain. Make the sacrifices. And now too many feel like they have gotten s*it for thanks.

Govt can bleat on about the economy booming all they like but when the evidence before people's eyes and the money in their pocket says different then you have a serious disconnect.

And into that space steps SF.

It is nothing like Brexit. A section of the UK (mainly English) electorate blamed the EU for all their troubles and came to believe, rightly or wrongly, that by giving the UK a absolutely free hand to pull up the drawbridge and govern without EU interference they can recapture some halcyon glory days.

A significant amount of Irish people are saying to our government we hear all you are saying about the economy etc etc but what we are seeing gives lie to your words and we are fed up with the way you are doing things. It's not working out. It's not me - it's you. I want to see other parties. Shake things up a bit, see how that works out.

Telling these people they have 'negative bias' and don't get how good it is in Ireland is exactly the wrong tactic.

Bit cynical

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It is nothing like Brexit. A section of the UK (mainly English) electorate blamed the EU for all their troubles and came to believe, rightly or wrongly, that by giving the UK a absolutely free hand to pull up the drawbridge and govern without EU interference they can recapture some halcyon glory days.

The same unfair dismissal of the UK's democratic choice can be applied to Ireland.

"A section of the Irish population blamed all their troubles on FF and FG and believe, rightly or wrongly, giving Sinn Fein a free hand in running the country without FG and FF interference can recapture some halcyon glory days."

Bannasidhe

Bit cynical wrote: »

The same unfair dismissal of the UK's democratic choice can be applied to Ireland.

"A section of the Irish population blamed all their troubles on FF and FG and believe, rightly or wrongly, giving Sinn Fein a free hand in running the country without FG and FF interference can recapture some halcyon glory days."

However, in order to have a 'free hand' a political party (any political party) would need to have a clear majority.
AFAIK this has not happened since Lynch's 1977 govt -on foot of a populist 'giveaway' campaign the promised to abolish rates, car tax, and generally something for everyone in the audience. We are still paying the price for that one.

It is very unlikely any single Irish political party in government will ever have a 'free hand' again.

Tell me this - when successive governments have policies that favour the (subsidised) private market over public housing and there is a dearth of affordable secure accommodation whose fault is that? Could it possibly be the policies are the problem?

This whole trying to link the surge in the vote for SF and Brexit is, imo, yet another stunning failure to understand what has happened.

Which is strange as what has happened is really quite simple - many many voters are so utterly disillusioned with the records of both FG and FF in govt that they voted for an alternative.

Over half a million people out of a total electorate of just over 3m rejected the dominant neo-liberal(ish) political ideologies and opted for a soft socialism (and it is soft socialism despite all the hoo-haa about 'hard left').

The response from the duopoly has frankly been an own goal. Rather than examine where they may, in the eyes of many voters, have gone wrong policy wise, they have gone on a smear attack. Generally sending out the message that half a million people are terrorist supporters or eejits who bought the snake oil.

Knocking the alternative, bringing out the Ra-Ra claims, telling people they never had it so good, trying to portray it as some Irish version of a Brexit all play right into the hands of the alternative because no where in all of that is there even a hint of reflection on why voters are disillusioned.

SF couldn't buy that kind of PR.

And once again let me make it clear: I DID NOT vote for SF.

is_that_so

Bannasidhe wrote: »

However, in order to have a 'free hand' a political party (any political party) would need to have a clear majority.
AFAIK this has not happened since Lynch's 1977 govt -on foot of a populist 'giveaway' campaign the promised to abolish rates, car tax, and generally something for everyone in the audience. We are still paying the price for that one.

It is very unlikely any single Irish political party in government will ever have a 'free hand' again.

Tell me this - when successive governments have policies that favour the (subsidised) private market over public housing and there is a dearth of affordable secure accommodation whose fault is that? Could it possibly be the policies are the problem?

This whole trying to link the surge in the vote for SF and Brexit is, imo, yet another stunning failure to understand what has happened.

Which is strange as what has happened is really quite simple - many many voters are so utterly disillusioned with the records of both FG and FF in govt that they voted for an alternative.

Over half a million people out of a total electorate of just over 3m rejected the dominant neo-liberal(ish) political ideologies and opted for a soft socialism (and it is soft socialism despite all the hoo-haa about 'hard left').

The response from the duopoly has frankly been an own goal. Rather than examine where they may, in the eyes of many voters, have gone wrong policy wise, they have gone on a smear attack. Generally sending out the message that half a million people are terrorist supporters or eejits who bought the snake oil.

Knocking the alternative, bringing out the Ra-Ra claims, telling people they never had it so good, trying to portray it as some Irish version of a Brexit all play right into the hands of the alternative because no where in all of that is there even a hint of reflection on why voters are disillusioned.

SF couldn't buy that kind of PR.

And once again let me make it clear: I DID NOT vote for SF.

The electorate is split in where it wants things to go, with the most strident voices claiming their position is sacrosanct. SF are a more complex mix of identities than any of the other parties. Others do have a right to question the less people-friendly stuff and also not to vote for them on that basis. The traditional two remain unmoving on that stance, as is their right too. Outside of that there is absolutely no compatibility between policies that would encourage engagement.

The PR end of it IMO is overcooked, they were 2nd in the election. That really doesn't allow them to challenge what voters did or did not vote for, certainly not the proposed dumb rally nonsense. In reality it looks more like an attempt to hang onto new voters in a forthcoming election. It could be fertile ground given what they chose, a rent dodger, a man living on the past and a rejected councillor with so many dubious positions she makes David Icke look sane.

Bannasidhe

is_that_so wrote: »

The electorate is split in where it wants things to go, with the most strident voices claiming their position is sacrosanct. SF are a more complex mix of identities than any of the other parties. Others do have a right to question the less people-friendly stuff and also not to vote for them on that basis. The traditional two remain unmoving on that stance, as is their right too. Outside of that there is absolutely no compatibility between policies that would encourage engagement.

The PR end of it IMO is overcooked, they were 2nd in the election. That really doesn't allow them to challenge what voters did or did not vote for, certainly not the proposed dumb rally nonsense. In reality it looks more like an attempt to hang onto new voters in a forthcoming election. It could be fertile ground given what they chose, a rent dodger, a man living on the past and a rejected councillor with so many dubious positions she makes David Icke look sane.

None of which addresses why, suddenly, after such a poor LA and MEP performance, there was a surge to SF.

None of which discusses why a significant number of voters turned away from the Duoply.

That is the issue.

Throwing brickbats at SF or dismissing their voters is, imo, completely counterproductive as it is ignoring the core issues both FF and FG need to be examining which is why didn't people vote for them.

is_that_so

Bannasidhe wrote: »

None of which addresses why, suddenly, after such a poor LA and MEP performance, there was a surge to SF.

None of which discusses why a significant number of voters turned away from the Duoply.

That is the issue.

Throwing brickbats at SF or dismissing their voters is, imo, completely counterproductive as it is ignoring the core issues both FF and FG need to be examining which is why didn't people vote for them.

They are, to borrow a common belief, all at it now. FG & FG are doing what they what they usually do and MLM has her shame on you face at work. As for the surge, the quality of some of the candidates running suggests it was an out and out protest vote, with people really not caring who they were just as long as they were not FF or FG. That, of course, can't be tested until we see another election and there are no guarantees for anyone there.

Bannasidhe

is_that_so wrote: »

They are, to borrow a common belief, all at it now. FG & FG are doing what they what they usually do and MLM has her shame on you face at work. As for the surge, the quality of some of the candidates running suggests it was an out and out protest vote, with people really not caring who they were just as long as they were not FF or FG. That, of course, can't be tested until we see another election and there are no guarantees for anyone there.

Everyone knows FG swept in on back of a protest vote in 2011. We all know why.
FF messed up. FF knew they messed up. Now, in that situation FG had run enough candidates and the the swing was well flagged.

Yes, a great component of the 2020 (GE # 1 ) may have been a protest vote (probably was) but what seems to be missing from the narrative is any discussion from the FG (and by extension FF as due to C&S they were seen as being 'part' of the FG govt) camps as to whether their policies played a role in that.
The whole focus seems to be (and I say this as someone who didn't give FF/FG/SF as much as a preference vote) on slagging SF and acting like there is nothing whatsoever wrong with any FG policy.
FG and their supporters appear to be sharing the same message which says it's more an issue of ungrateful, ill-informed voters who don't know how good they have it; don't understand how 'unfit' SF are because x,y, Ra-Ra; and there is no workable alternative to their neo-liberal(ish) policies.

Yet, FG don't seem so convinced their chosen ideological path is the best for the country that they are exploring every avenue to get back into govt. That message seems to be we are going to lick our wounds on the Opposition Benches unless there really is no other way to keep SF out.

As PR it's a disaster. And PR is important. FG knows that, hence why Leo spent so much money on it during his tenure. €1.8m in his first 18 months alone https://www.irishpost.com/news/varadkar-spent-e1-8m-self-advertising-first-18-months-taoiseach-compared-enda-kennys-e16k-177658.

Bit cynical

Bannasidhe wrote: »

However, in order to have a 'free hand' a political party (any political party) would need to have a clear majority.
AFAIK this has not happened since Lynch's 1977 govt -on foot of a populist 'giveaway' campaign the promised to abolish rates, car tax, and generally something for everyone in the audience. We are still paying the price for that one.

It is very unlikely any single Irish political party in government will ever have a 'free hand' again.

Tell me this - when successive governments have policies that favour the (subsidised) private market over public housing and there is a dearth of affordable secure accommodation whose fault is that? Could it possibly be the policies are the problem?

This whole trying to link the surge in the vote for SF and Brexit is, imo, yet another stunning failure to understand what has happened.

Which is strange as what has happened is really quite simple - many many voters are so utterly disillusioned with the records of both FG and FF in govt that they voted for an alternative.

Over half a million people out of a total electorate of just over 3m rejected the dominant neo-liberal(ish) political ideologies and opted for a soft socialism (and it is soft socialism despite all the hoo-haa about 'hard left').

I don't mean to suggest that the SF surge and Brexit are the same, but there are some parallels. To a certain extent with Brexit there was also a rejection of the neo-liberal consensus although due to differences in the political landscape in the UK and own-goals from the Left in that country it has taken a different form.