General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

is_that_so

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Maybe they care about society? I see FF are abstaining.
Still, nothing dumb about public representatives representing the public interest despite any perceived motive. Murphy and FG have been a complete disaster on this. FG can't fudge that with talk of stunts.

How does a failed motion of confidence help public interest, especially as we are probably within 6 months of an election? A new minister would barely be up to speed by the time it arrives.

SF have been at motion nonsense for years at the drop of a hat and it just makes people look stupid. Given where we are on housing, i.e. still loads of social and apartments to be built, it really doesn't matter who's in there. At present it's a bit like Angola and it will remain that way for a good few years.

blanch152

is_that_so wrote: »

How does a failed motion of confidence help public interest, especially as we are probably within 6 months of an election? A new minister would barely be up to speed by the time it arrives.

SF have been at motion nonsense for years at the drop of a hat and it just makes people look stupid. Given where we are on housing, i.e. still loads of social and apartments to be built, it really doesn't matter who's in there. At present it's a bit like Angola and it will remain that way for a good few years.

It is all a publicity stunt, a gimmick, conjured up by populist opposition parties who are only interested in the optics and not in any real solutions. Only the latest of these gimmicks.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's a great example of a broken system. By the Right wing logic we should be all flying instead of dying on hospital trolleys and some workers not able to pay rent and buying a home has become a fantasy for most. Not to mention record breaking and rising numbers of homeless children.

**************

Nice to see the Solidarity-PBP, SF, Greens, Labour and Indies 'hurlers from the ditch, who don't want to be elected' speaking out representing democracy:



Another opportunity for FF to look like viable opposition too.

Does anyone remember this one from only just over three weeks ago. Our brave Solidarity-PBP TDs were marching to the courts to save our democracy. Well, plenty of publicity for a couple of days, and then...........radio silence.

There is a pattern of outrage over something, something getting publicity, and then a few weeks later, the latest trinket to require outrage will be produced to the same effect. Plenty of talk, plenty of outrage, plenty of protest, but no resultant change in anything.

ddarcy

is_that_so wrote: »

How does a failed motion of confidence help public interest, especially as we are probably within 6 months of an election? A new minister would barely be up to speed by the time it arrives.

SF have been at motion nonsense for years at the drop of a hat and it just makes people look stupid. Given where we are on housing, i.e. still loads of social and apartments to be built, it really doesn't matter who's in there. At present it's a bit like Angola and it will remain that way for a good few years.

After today it looks like the opposition will have 58 seats to the coalitions 54. I wonder if Naughten and Lowry will stay in and vote with the government here? Then it comes down to the ceann comhairle to break; will he side with the government? Plus will Maria Bailey come back to haunt Leo? Could be an interesting week. FG with the upcoming retirement of Dara Murphywill no longer be able to vote through legislation without other party support.

is_that_so

ddarcy wrote: »

After today it looks like the opposition will have 58 seats to the coalitions 54. I wonder if Naughten and Lowry will stay in and vote with the government here? Then it comes down to the ceann comhairle to break; will he side with the government? Plus will Maria Bailey come back to haunt Leo? Could be an interesting week. FG with the upcoming retirement of Dara Murphywill no longer be able to vote through legislation without other party support.

I don't think it will make too much difference as this Dail is coming to an end. They've only dropped one vote as Murphy has rarely been around the Dail. What they want to get depends on the the legislative agenda between now and Easter. I really can't see too much happening except for completing anything already in motion. Equally, I can't see FF letting any votes of confidence go through until they get to their own favoured window. I reckon it's March -June for everyone, bar the idiots who would even fight an election on Christmas Day to prove a "point of principle".

ddarcy

is_that_so wrote: »

I don't think it will make too much difference as this Dail is coming to an end. They've only dropped one vote as Murphy has rarely been around the Dail. What they want to get depends on the the legislative agenda between now and Easter. I really can't see too much happening except for completing anything already in motion. Equally, I can't see FF letting any votes of confidence go through until they get to their own favoured window. I reckon it's March -June for everyone, bar the idiots who would even fight an election on Christmas Day to prove a "point of principle".

Yes Murphy hasn’t been around, but once gone FG cannot get anything passed in the current arrangement. The smart political thing to do note for the social democrats is to pull the motion of no confidence from Tuesday and say they will wait for dara Murphy to officially resign and then put it forward again. That puts pressure on FG for them to stand up for him and keep him in the Dail. It keeps another bad story for FG going. That would be for the maximum damage. Not too sure they are bright enough to do it though.

is_that_so

ddarcy wrote: »

Yes Murphy hasn’t been around, but once gone FG cannot get anything passed in the current arrangement. The smart political thing to do note for the social democrats is to pull the motion of no confidence from Tuesday and say they will wait for dara Murphy to officially resign and then put it forward again. That puts pressure on FG for them to stand up for him and keep him in the Dail. It keeps another bad story for FG going. That would be for the maximum damage. Not too sure they are bright enough to do it though.

Nothing bright about what the SDs do! There's really no pressure. If legislation doesn't get completed it will just have to wait till the next Dail. If anything urgent crops up it'll get through.

jogdish

Maybe silly question.

I have heard a few times now that if the Gov lose this vote of no confidence in the housing minister this will mean a December general election ? Why does a vote of no confidence in just a single minister mean this, I would have just assumed new minister or at worst a by election ? If it were a no confidence in the government as a whole I can understand.

L1011

jogdish wrote: »

Maybe silly question.

I have heard a few times now that if the Gov lose this vote of no confidence in the housing minister this will mean a December general election ? Why does a vote of no confidence in just a single minister mean this, I would have just assumed new minister or at worst a by election ? If it were a no confidence in the government as a whole I can understand.

Because they would have trouble appointing a new Minister for starters (as it has to pass the Dail, which they would have shown they don't have the numbers in); followed by a general inability to do anything at all.

If they can't get the few extra Independents for this they won't get them for anything else difficult.

sid waddell

A reporter on The Week In Politics today said there was a possibility of a general election on December 28th.

This has to be a piss take?

ddarcy

sid waddell wrote: »

A reporter on The Week In Politics today said there was a possibility of a general election on December 28th.

This has to be a piss take?

The election must happen between 17 and 25 days after the dissolution of the dail excluding Sunday and public holidays (and for the time of year, Christmas, st Stephens day and New Year’s Day.) So if it dissolves on Tuesday, my understanding is it could be held earliest on December 24th and the latest on January 4th.

L1011

The shortest serving TD currently is about 50 days as far as I remember. As it is extremely unlikely that SF will retain the DMW seat we could get s new record. Suspect the other 3 will retain theirs.

James Brown

is_that_so wrote: »

How does a failed motion of confidence help public interest, especially as we are probably within 6 months of an election? A new minister would barely be up to speed by the time it arrives.

SF have been at motion nonsense for years at the drop of a hat and it just makes people look stupid. Given where we are on housing, i.e. still loads of social and apartments to be built, it really doesn't matter who's in there. At present it's a bit like Angola and it will remain that way for a good few years.

Maybe if FF weren't playing both sides it might have worked.
Either way It's the duty of public representatives to call out gross and willful incompetence in government. To ignore it would be disgraceful. Good to see a real opposition in the least make a point even if not politically expedient. That's the problem with FF/FG and their followers, it's about face saving and Facebook likes not ethics. Works for them fair play. Show's what's important to them. Apart from keeping vulture funds in the money, tax payer money.

hotmail.com

Why can't they just delay the election to January if they lose the motion of confidence vote.

L1011

hotmail.com wrote: »

Why can't they just delay the election to January if they lose the motion of confidence vote.

They could, but the later the threatened date the less worry it would put in some of the Independents. Also if they lose the vote it indicates they would have a very hard time getting anything at all done, or could also lose a vote in the Government itself.

Absolutely nobody wants a December 24th, or 28th, or even early January election. The 2016 date was even horribly early. But if the Opposition decide it's time - and the Government can't get enough to disagree - it's time.

markodaly

L1011 wrote: »

They could, but the later the threatened date the less worry it would put in some of the Independents. Also if they lose the vote it indicates they would have a very hard time getting anything at all done, or could also lose a vote in the Government itself.

Absolutely nobody wants a December 24th, or 28th, or even early January election. The 2016 date was even horribly early. But if the Opposition decide it's time - and the Government can't get enough to disagree - it's time.

Yeap, if the Oppoistion wants to inflict that on the Irish people, good luck to them.
As usual, a lot of hot air and rethoric but very little subtance.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Maybe if FF weren't playing both sides it might have worked.
Either way It's the duty of public representatives to call out gross and willful incompetence in government. To ignore it would be disgraceful. Good to see a real opposition in the least make a point even if not politically expedient. That's the problem with FF/FG and their followers, it's about face saving and Facebook likes not ethics. Works for them fair play. Show's what's important to them. Apart from keeping vulture funds in the money, tax payer money.

It's just a desperate gimmick to keep the Social Democrats relevant in the wake of their disastrous performances in the by-elections. It is the ultimate face saving and Facebook likes play from them that has nothing to do with ethics.

If the Social Democrats had won a seat in the by-election, there wouldn't be this motion of no confidence as they would have wanted the new TD to get some time to build a profile before a general election next May.

It is incredibly naive to think that this is about anything else but Social Democrats for them.

All of the opposition parties are engaging in this gimmickry. We had PBP with their court case a few weeks ago that now seems to have disappeared into thin air. We had Sinn Fein claiming that Boris' Brexit deal was a victory for them, that the so-called "special status" for Northern Ireland was better than the whole of the UK remaining in the CU and SM, now it is the turn of the SDs to suddenly acquire a conscience about housing.

All of it is straight out of different general election playbooks. It is a joke to think that they are sincere.

James Brown

Very telling how the Murphy no confidence vote, like most criticism of Fine Gael, needs to be dismissed based on the agenda and motive of those raising it, while the issue, in this case Murphy's disastrous role overseeing disgusting FG policy is avoided. Tough to defend the indefensible so attack those pointing it out. We see this tack a lot on the Trump threads.

Bishop of hope

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Very telling how the Murphy no confidence vote, like most criticism of Fine Gael, needs to be dismissed based on the agenda and motive of those raising it, while the issue, in this case Murphy's disastrous role overseeing disgusting FG policy is avoided. Tough to defend the indefensible so attack those pointing it out. We see this tack a lot on the Trump threads.

It's just a stunt, nothing more.
I hope it blows up in her face and she wins the vote tonight, not what she wants at all, just a bit of attention.
I'm sure like the rest of them, being comfortable in her seat, she doesent want to be rambling the roads coming up to Xmas at the darkest dirtiest days of the year.
Just attention seeking political whoredom.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Very telling how the Murphy no confidence vote, like most criticism of Fine Gael, needs to be dismissed based on the agenda and motive of those raising it, while the issue, in this case Murphy's disastrous role overseeing disgusting FG policy is avoided. Tough to defend the indefensible so attack those pointing it out. We see this tack a lot on the Trump threads.

This no-confidence vote is a stunt, designed to distract from the Social Democrat's abysmal performance in the bye-elections and keeps them in the news. It is a pity that there are members of the public gullible enough to fall for it. As for the facts about housing, I posted this elsewhere, but it might help if I put it here so that we can have a debate based on facts, rather than stunts.

Let us look at some facts.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpub...september2019/


"In Dublin, residential property prices decreased by 1.3% in the year to September - house prices decreased by 1.5% and apartments decreased by 0.2%"

The Mid-East, the commuter belt, saw only small rises.

With wages rising by 5-6% according to the stats, then housing is more affordable this year than last.

A look at housing completions:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpub...letionsq32019/

"There were 5,667 new dwelling completions in Q3 2019. This compares with 4,645 completions for Q3 2018, an increase of 22.0%."

A 22% increase is not to be sniffed at, still not enough, but heading in the right direction, just like affordability.

Interestingly, these statistics do not include student accommodation. "In Q3 2019, 1,538 bed spaces were completed in the student accommodation sector".

That is a significant number of people being taken out of the normal rental market.

The story on rents is not as good, they are still going up, despite the rent controls.

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/research/ar/

So, the facts tell us that the price of property in Dublin is coming down, affordability is easier, the number of properties being built has significantly increased, but that rents are still at high levels. One of two things may be at play, either there is significant population increase/migration preventing rents falling with the increased supply, or rental changes are lagging behind the increase in supply. That should become clearer over the next year.

Government performance on housing in the last year should therefore be rated somewhere between a C and a D. Not bad enough to be considered a failure, not good enough to be considered a significant success, but the picture is one of slow improvement.

James Brown

Bishop of hope wrote: »

It's just a stunt, nothing more.
I hope it blows up in her face and she wins the vote tonight, not what she wants at all, just a bit of attention.
I'm sure like the rest of them, being comfortable in her seat, she doesent want to be rambling the roads coming up to Xmas at the darkest dirtiest days of the year.
Just attention seeking political whoredom.

Sounds to me like a desperate attempt to distract from Murphy going after an opposition politician doing her job and calling attention to an inept party and politician. Good on her.

average_runner

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Very telling how the Murphy no confidence vote, like most criticism of Fine Gael, needs to be dismissed based on the agenda and motive of those raising it, while the issue, in this case Murphy's disastrous role overseeing disgusting FG policy is avoided. Tough to defend the indefensible so attack those pointing it out. We see this tack a lot on the Trump threads.

Its even more telling when the people asking for a no confidence vote, have no real policy on how to tackle these issues.

I would love to put these fakers in power to see them drown so quickly when they have to deal with the issues for real

beggars_bush

average_runner wrote: »

Its even more telling when the people asking for a no confidence vote, have no real policy on how to tackle these issues.

I would love to put these fakers in power to see them drown so quickly when they have to deal with the issues for real

Well, you cannot just leave it to the 'market' to sort out the housing issue
Which is the FG mantra

Every country builds affordable and social housing/apartments

We need a permanent housing agency taking state owned land and buildings and turning them into accommodation either by new builds or renovating.
This is needed in all main cities and major towns

Bishop of hope

beggars_bush wrote: »

Well, you cannot just leave it to the 'market' to sort out the housing issue
Which is the FG mantra

Every country builds affordable and social housing/apartments

We need a permanent housing agency taking state owned land and buildings and turning them into accommodation either by new builds or renovating.
This is needed in all main cities and major towns

Like IW I suppose, that worked well.

blanch152

beggars_bush wrote: »

Well, you cannot just leave it to the 'market' to sort out the housing issue
Which is the FG mantra

Every country builds affordable and social housing/apartments

We need a permanent housing agency taking state owned land and buildings and turning them into accommodation either by new builds or renovating.
This is needed in all main cities and major towns

And how will this new permanent housing agency get the money to build and renovate all these houses?

James Brown

average_runner wrote: »

Its even more telling when the people asking for a no confidence vote, have no real policy on how to tackle these issues.

I would love to put these fakers in power to see them drown so quickly when they have to deal with the issues for real

Easy to improve upon FG. Do the opposite. Build our own rather than lease. Very simple. The market cools, tax payers can afford to rent and buy.
I think most dogs in the street could perform better than FG on housing.

James Brown

Brilliant to see.

Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney is in Gaza, where Ireland has announced investment of €8.8 million in a new waste water treatment plant, which will be powered by solar energy.

The Tánaiste said it was a significant investment.

"We're going to spend almost €9 million building one of the largest solar projects across the Middle East. It's going to be eight hectares of solar panels powering a water purification and a sewerage treatment plant which is going to improve the quality of people's water in Gaza city significantly and it's badly needed," he said.

"But we're also here to raise the profile of the plight of Palestinians living in awful conditions in Gaza. People shouldn't have to live like this, and it's because of a lack of political progress that the continued pressures on people living in Gaza are as they are."

He added: "Ireland continues to advocate for a change in that political circumstance. The Irish position in relation to Israeli settlements and the expansion of those settlements is very clear. We regard this as illegal under international law. An occupying power has an obligation not to forcibly displace people and to expand settlements in the way that is currently happening in the West Bank, and I've spoken out against that in the Irish parliament, at a UN level and I'm also very blunt on that issue when I'm speaking to Israeli politicians as well."
https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2019/1203/1096778-tanaiste-gaza/

Well done FG.

Kermit.de.frog

Nobody could resolve the legacy of what FF left behind in 10 years.

The legacy of the crash will be with us for at least 30 years.

All the problems stem from FF governments from 97 - 2010.

These opposition TDs act all high and mighty but they don't want to be in government because then reality would belt them in the face hard.

I hope there is a general election for that reason.

Spoofers.

James Brown

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Nobody could resolve the legacy of what FF left behind in 10 years.

The legacy of the crash will be with us for at least 30 years.

All the problems stem from FF governments from 97 - 2010.

These opposition TDs act all high and mighty but they don't want to be in government because then reality would belt them in the face hard.

I hope there is a general election for that reason.

Spoofers.

The above is the spoof. FF are good enough to partner with though eh?
FF don't set current policy on housing, (maybe they do). Things have been getting worse. That's not Fianna Fail. We are leasing, renting and buying, that's not FF either. We are breaking records on child homelessness, also not on FF.

The part in bold is the height of malarkey. It's FG spin 101, after 'the others I'd be worse'.

average_runner

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Easy to improve upon FG. Do the opposite. Build our own rather than lease. Very simple. The market cools, tax payers can afford to rent and buy.
I think most dogs in the street could perform better than FG on housing.

If its that easy why haven't u run for office?

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The above is the spoof. FF are good enough to partner with though eh?
FF don't set current policy on housing, (maybe they do). Things have been getting worse. That's not Fianna Fail. We are leasing, renting and buying, that's not FF either. We are breaking records on child homelessness, also not on FF.

The part in bold is the height of malarkey. It's FG spin 101, after 'the others I'd be worse'.

How many times does it have to be explained that FG are not in coalition partnership with FF?

A confidence and supply arrangement is as far from a partnership you can go without being in opposition. Incredible that this is not understood nearly four years on.