Government proposal to charge per KM because of electric cars

I heard this on Radio One the other morning driving home, anyone else hear it?

They were blaming change to EV for loss of revenue or saying when there's a loss of revenue it's one proposal they have.

No getting away from them, greedy bast1rds !

The whole point of EV is lower costs + no emissions and if people start hearing his rubbish why would they change ?

My guess is it won't happen for a good few years yet but it just shows the narrow mindless , the more money people have in their pockets the more they'll spend, part of the Reason the U.S economy is doing so well since Trump lowered taxes.

The Irish Government want to take it right from your pocket before you got a chance to spend it in the local economy.

I don't get it ? do the Government not see this ? I'm not an economist but I can see that if people spend more the Government make more at least the more money people have the more they can go on holidays, eat in restaurants, buy cars etc, when they take it directly you got no chance to spend it and the economy suffers.

_Brian

I saw this online.
It would unfairly penalise rural dwellers.

Really though isn’t this silly season or whatever they call it when all the ministers are off on holidays and any old rubbish gets printed.

_Brian

_Brian wrote: »

I saw this online.
It would unfairly penalise rural dwellers.

Really though isn’t this silly season or whatever they call it when all the ministers are off on holidays and any old rubbish gets printed.

Lol yeah I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps .

Yes it would really punish those who have to travel from the sticks to Dublin every day for work.

I think they're mad enough but most likely Motor tax will rocket back up.

I still feel that the more people have to spend the better off the economy will be.

ELM327

It's rubbish. Another tax on rural ireland.

They are going about this the wrong way. The problem is in Dublin, not the country.
Ergo - dublin congestion charge!

Pelvis

ELM327 wrote: »

It's rubbish. Another tax on rural ireland.

They are going about this the wrong way. The problem is in Dublin, not the country.
Ergo - dublin congestion charge!

What problem are you talking about?

The issue here would be lost revenue through the substantial reduction in petrol and diesel sales.

However as I said, the more money people have the more they spend in the economy which is better overall than giving it straight to the Government to squander.

ELM327

Pelvis wrote: »

What problem are you talking about?

Traffic management, and revenue shortfall.


People blame the revenue shortfall on EVs. But with ~1% of the national fleet as EV/PHEV, it's not the EV/PHEV that are the problem, it's the lower tax rates for diesels and petrols due to emissions taxation.


Increase the rates (which will happen anyway due to WLTP) and you don't need to do anything.

rocky

Any figures per km being floated about? Presume they'll also keep the petrol taxes, and motor tax...

Maybe time to change to 1 car from 2, a Rex

ted1

ELM327 wrote: »

It's rubbish. Another tax on rural ireland.

They are going about this the wrong way. The problem is in Dublin, not the country.
Ergo - dublin congestion charge!

How’s it a another tax on rural Ireland ?
It’s not a tax on road usage. Rural Ireland dwellers already benefit from lower property tax and lower priced houses, subsidies services like electricity ( city dollars paying the same standing charges that go to running a cable out to the one off houses) etc

ted1

Deleted User wrote: »

I heard this on Radio One the other morning driving home, anyone else hear it?

They were blaming change to EV for loss of revenue or saying when there's a loss of revenue it's one proposal they have.

No getting away from them, greedy bast1rds !

The whole point of EV is lower costs + no emissions and if people start hearing his rubbish why would they change ?

My guess is it won't happen for a good few years yet but it just shows the narrow mindless , the more money people have in their pockets the more they'll spend, part of the Reason the U.S economy is doing so well since Trump lowered taxes.

The Irish Government want to take it right from your pocket before you got a chance to spend it in the local economy.

I don't get it ? do the Government not see this ? I'm not an economist but I can see that if people spend more the Government make more at least the more money people have the more they can go on holidays, eat in restaurants, buy cars etc, when they take it directly you got no chance to spend it and the economy suffers.

The American economy is in a state itsnit doing well.
No public health care system , no welfare , poor Labour laws.
In no way should we try to emulate them.

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

I heard this on Radio One the other morning driving home, anyone else hear it?

They were blaming change to EV for loss of revenue or saying when there's a loss of revenue it's one proposal they have.

No getting away from them, greedy bast1rds !

The whole point of EV is lower costs + no emissions and if people start hearing his rubbish why would they change ?

My guess is it won't happen for a good few years yet but it just shows the narrow mindless , the more money people have in their pockets the more they'll spend, part of the Reason the U.S economy is doing so well since Trump lowered taxes.

The Irish Government want to take it right from your pocket before you got a chance to spend it in the local economy.

I don't get it ? do the Government not see this ? I'm not an economist but I can see that if people spend more the Government make more at least the more money people have the more they can go on holidays, eat in restaurants, buy cars etc, when they take it directly you got no chance to spend it and the economy suffers.

Thread title is misleading, its not purely because of EV use. It is due to the uptake in lower emission cars in general. Every year the car manufacturers develop their engines to run with less CO2, and thus reducing their VRT and motor tax liabilities.

This will change very slightly now as with the move to this WLRP (can someone confirm the lettering please) as opposed to the NEDC, the ratings are actually a little higher so its pushing cars into a higher VRT and tax bracket.

Pelvis

ELM327 wrote: »

Traffic management, and revenue shortfall.


People blame the revenue shortfall on EVs. But with ~1% of the national fleet as EV/PHEV, it's not the EV/PHEV that are the problem, it's the lower tax rates for diesels and petrols due to emissions taxation.


Increase the rates (which will happen anyway due to WLTP) and you don't need to do anything.

What's traffic management got to do with it? And how is any of that a "Dublin" problem?

Increasing emission taxes is not a solution, it will just increase the uptake of EVs, which will further decrease tax revenue.

Like it or not, you're going to pay extra for your EV.

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

How’s it a another tax on rural Ireland ?
It’s not a tax on road usage. Rural Ireland dwellers already benefit from lower property tax and lower priced houses, subsidies services like electricity ( city dollars paying the same standing charges that go to running a cable out to the one off houses) etc

It's a tax on rural Ireland as we're forced out of the city and have to live 30-50-70-100+km from work.
So now you want to tax my 2 hours of commuting each day? BS to that.
I won't be paying it.

ELM327

Pelvis wrote: »

What's traffic management got to do with it? And how is any of that a "Dublin" problem?
.

Well, dublin is where the traffic congestion is.

Pelvis wrote: »

Increasing emission taxes is not a solution, it will just increase the uptake of EVs, which will further decrease tax revenue.

Oh is that because it hits your ICE.

Gotcha. NIMBY.

Pelvis wrote: »

Like it or not, you're going to pay extra for your EV.

Selfish attitude. If we don't incentivise EVs the whole country will have to pay annual emissions fines from the EU, 600million in 2020.

ted1

ELM327 wrote: »

It's a tax on rural Ireland as we're forced out of the city and have to live 30-50-70-100+km from work.
So now you want to tax my 2 hours of commuting each day? BS to that.
I won't be paying it.

You are not forced.
You choose to live in rural Ireland and for that get rewarded with cheaper housing

One if the cons is that you require a large road network so that you can live in rural Ireland and work elsewhere. Who do you think pays for the large road network ? It’s only right the the user pays. You can’t have your cake and eat it.

ted1

ELM327 wrote: »

Well, dublin is where the traffic congestion is.

Oh is that because it hits your ICE.

Gotcha. NIMBY.


Selfish attitude. If we don't incentivise EVs the whole country will have to pay annual emissions fines from the EU, 600million in 2020.

With bus connect , additional cycle lanes and the metro , congestion will decrease. Changing to EVs will do nothing for congestion. The only thing that will remove congestion is the move away from private motor vehicles. The days of driving single occupancy cars into cities is fast approaching.

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

With bus connect , additional cycle lanes and the metro , congestion will decrease. Changing to EVs will do nothing for congestion. The only thing that will remove congestion is the move away from private motor vehicles. The days of driving single occupancy cars into cities is fast approaching.

What bus/cycle lane will do my 120 km daily commute?

You haven't addressed the EU emissions fines either.

pebbles21

ted1 wrote: »

You can’t have your cake and eat it.

Any cake I ever got I ate it !!

FriendsEV

Drive more

Pay more

Only fair

ted1

ELM327 wrote: »

What bus/cycle lane will do my 120 km daily commute?

You haven't addressed the EU emissions fines either.

The ban on selling ICE cars will address the emission fine aswell the actual availablty of actual EVs on forecourts.

Removing private cars as I stated above will remove emissions.
And finally taxing people like yourself who commute long distances to avail of heap housing will make you rethink your commute and you can look locally for a job or move closer.

So it’s a three prong idea
1. Remove cars altogether
2. Displace ICE cars with EVs ( which will happen globally)
3. Discourage long commutes

FriendsEV

ted1 wrote: »

The ban on selling ICE cars will address the emission fine aswell the actual availablty of actual EVs on forecourts.

Removing private cars as I stated above will remove emissions.
And finally taxing people like yourself who commute long distances to avail of heap housing will make you rethink your commute and you can look locally for a job or move closer.

So it’s a three prong idea
1. Remove cars altogether
2. Displace ICE cars with EVs ( which will happen globally)
3. Discourage long commutes

Exactly

Getting people out of the cars is the aim of the game

Not letting people drive from Monaghan to Dublin daily for 1e per 100km

Commuting those distances is good for no ones health

That time should be spent with family, in a gym, walking the dog etc

duffman3833

ted1 wrote: »

And finally taxing people like yourself who commute long distances to avail of heap housing will make you rethink your commute and you can look locally for a job or move closer.

this is not so simple, if there were jobs available outside of Dublin then that's fine, but there is not. A lot of skilled jobs are located in Dublin. Its not as if people want to work in Dublin as a choice. Its because they have to

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

The ban on selling ICE cars will address the emission fine aswell the actual availablty of actual EVs on forecourts.

Removing private cars as I stated above will remove emissions.
And finally taxing people like yourself who commute long distances to avail of heap housing will make you rethink your commute and you can look locally for a job or move closer.

So it’s a three prong idea
1. Remove cars altogether
2. Displace ICE cars with EVs ( which will happen globally)
3. Discourage long commutes

There are no jobs in my field outside of dublin - specialised subset of fintech. IN fact there's only a few in Dublin. If there was a job closer even with a 20% pay cut I'd take it in a heartbeat. No one likes commuting!


1 - Not an option. That's a regressive step. Cars gave us freedom with mass adoption in the 50's onwards.
2 - That will happen anyway
3 - How do you discourage long commutes if even on good wages (although still below 100k) I cannot afford to buy in dublin, and there are no jobs in my field elsewhere?

ELM327

FriendsEV wrote: »

Exactly

Getting people out of the cars is the aim of the game

Not letting people drive from Monaghan to Dublin daily for 1e per 100km

Commuting those distances is good for no ones health

That time should be spent with family, in a gym, walking the dog etc

Who died and made you dictator?

FriendsEV

duffman3833 wrote: »

this is not so simple, if there were jobs available outside of Dublin then that's fine, but there is not. A lot of skilled jobs are located in Dublin. Its not as if people want to work in Dublin as a choice. Its because they have to

They don't have to live in the middle of nowhere and clog up the M7/M1 every morning

Alot of the early EV adopters don't give a **** about the environment

If petrol was 40c a litre like it should be they would be driving Toyotas

Its not so they drive Evs from the middle of nowhere for the cheap running costs of 1e per 100km on night rate electricity

Pelvis

ELM327 wrote: »

Well, dublin is where the traffic congestion is.

Except congestion has nothing to do with anything?

ELM327 wrote: »

Oh is that because it hits your ICE.

Gotcha. NIMBY.

I actually don't own any car. It's great living in Dublin City, I have the bus and luas on my doorstep

ELM327 wrote: »

Selfish attitude. If we don't incentivise EVs the whole country will have to pay annual emissions fines from the EU, 600million in 2020.

That's nice. But doesn't change anything. The gubberment needs the money, so they'll find a way to get it.

porsche boy

How?
How are they going to implement this? Am i going to log onto some site and tell them how much I've driven today? Is someone going to be employed to go to every house and check the mileage?
Even if so, i can have my mileage 'calibrated' to read what ever i want. I can have it registering 1km for every 10 i drive...
This is unworkable drivel and should be filed away along with the Granny payment and water charges.

duffman3833

FriendsEV wrote: »

They don't have to live in the middle of nowhere and clog up the M7/M1 every morning

Alot of the early EV adopters don't give a **** about the environment

If petrol was 40c a litre like it should be they would be driving Toyotas

Its not so they drive Evs from the middle of nowhere for the cheap running costs of 1e per 100km on night rate electricity

i know a lot of EV drivers couldn't give a hoot about the environment, its all about the money in their pocket, yet there are some that might. Anyway the reason a lot of people are living in the middle of no where is because of house prices, shortage of houses and Dublin seems to be the go to place for companies to setup where all the jobs are going

ELM327

duffman3833 wrote: »

i know a lot of EV drivers couldn't give a hoot about the environment, its all about the money in their pocket, yet there are some that might. Anyway the reason a lot of people are living in the middle of no where is because of house prices, shortage of houses and Dublin seems to be the go to place for companies to setup where all the jobs are going

This is the point that's being missed.
It's easy to shout rabble rabble public transport when the bus line crosses over the luas near the dart station all on your front door.

n97 mini

This isn't about discouraging anything, it's about replacing revenue lost in the motoring economy. That money has to come from somewhere.

Taxing per km driven won't work. Cars are too easy to clock, and the rural lobby is too strong.

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

This isn't about discouraging anything, it's about replacing revenue lost in the motoring economy. That money has to come from somewhere.

Taxing per km driven won't work. Cars are too easy to clock, and the rural lobby is too strong.

Finally. Some sense.


The revenue loss is actually nothing to do with EV, it's because the median tax rate was ~500 in 2007 and is probably closer to 200 now. That's not sustainable

creedp

ELM327 wrote: »

Finally. Some sense.


The revenue loss is actually nothing to do with EV, it's because the median tax rate was ~500 in 2007 and is probably closer to 200 now. That's not sustainable

In time it will become about EV's though. Currently lower motor tax and VRT tax take applies to all 'lower emission' car including EV's. However, in the future the issue will also be the massively reduced tax take on motor fuel as people progressively move to EV's. Even if we set the current reduced total take on motor related taxation as an acceptable base, this will continue to be eroded into the future unless we move away from fuel based taxation.

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

This isn't about discouraging anything, it's about replacing revenue lost in the motoring economy. That money has to come from somewhere.

The interesting thing is that when VRT and motor tax intake were greatly reduced with the changeover to CO2 basis in 2008, this lost revenue was not replaced

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Ergo - dublin congestion charge!

Daily entry for diesels in London is £11.50 congestion charge + £10.00 dirty diesel surcharge. That's almost €25

Imagine how all diesels would be worthless overnight if the owners would have to pay €125 a week :eek: in congestion charges. Bring it on

FriendsEV

unkel wrote: »

Daily entry for diesels in London is £11.50 congestion charge + £10.00 dirty diesel surcharge. That's almost €25

Imagine how all diesels would be worthless overnight if the owners would have to pay €125 a week :eek: in congestion charges. Bring it on

Do Evs not congest?

Should be no cars in cities period

Public transport and delivery vehicles only

ted1

ELM327 wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

The ban on selling ICE cars will address the emission fine aswell the actual availablty of actual EVs on forecourts.

Removing private cars as I stated above will remove emissions.
And finally taxing people like yourself who commute long distances to avail of heap housing will make you rethink your commute and you can look locally for a job or move closer.

So it’s a three prong idea
1. Remove cars altogether
2. Displace ICE cars with EVs ( which will happen globally)
3. Discourage long commutes

There are no jobs in my field outside of dublin - specialised subset of fintech. IN fact there's only a few in Dublin. If there was a job closer even with a 20% pay cut I'd take it in a heartbeat. No one likes commuting!


1 - Not an option. That's a regressive step. Cars gave us freedom with mass adoption in the 50's onwards.
2 - That will happen anyway
3 - How do you discourage long commutes if even on good wages (although still below 100k) I cannot afford to buy in dublin, and there are no jobs in my field elsewhere?

If you are working in Fintech you should be able to work remotely, no need to commute everyday

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

If you are working in Fintech you should be able to work remotely, no need to commute everyday

Yes but that's here and there, you can't work with no office attendance, I have a number of WFH days but thats it

Pelvis

FriendsEV wrote: »

Should be no cars in cities period

You've obviously put a lot of thought into this.

drunkmonkey

How is this even possible without putting trackers in every car?

Silly season but I do think EV free ride won't last, higher electricity costs for EV's to make the fuel costs come inline with petrol and diesel.

unkel

FriendsEV wrote: »

Do Evs not congest?

I was comparing it to London. Which does not just have a congestion charge, but also a pollution charge. EVs there are exempt from both

I'm sure that by the time the majority of cars in London are EVs, they will no longer be exempt ;~)

ELM327

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How is this even possible without putting trackers in every car?

Silly season but I do think EV free ride won't last, higher electricity costs for EV's to make the fuel costs come inline with petrol and diesel.

The funny thing is most EV drivers are pushing for charges to be brought in for public chargers but because of the uselessness of the public operator nothing happens

unkel

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I do think EV free ride won't last, higher electricity costs for EV's to make the fuel costs come inline with petrol and diesel.

EVs are mostly charged at home. And it is not possible to distinguish the use of electricity in the home at present

Even if you could sometime in future, unlike petrol and diesel it is very easy to make electricity at home in a fully renewable way

And as ELM427 said, most EV owners would be delighted to pay petrol / diesel prices for public charging provided there would be a decent fast charging network with no waiting times. We are getting that anyway, 9 Ionity fast chargers for Ireland before the end of next year. I'm expecting to pay at least €0.50 per kWh for these (that's over 7 times what I pay at home), possibly a lot more than that.

Dardania

ELM327 wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

The ban on selling ICE cars will address the emission fine aswell the actual availablty of actual EVs on forecourts.

Removing private cars as I stated above will remove emissions.
And finally taxing people like yourself who commute long distances to avail of heap housing will make you rethink your commute and you can look locally for a job or move closer.

So it’s a three prong idea
1. Remove cars altogether
2. Displace ICE cars with EVs ( which will happen globally)
3. Discourage long commutes

There are no jobs in my field outside of dublin - specialised subset of fintech. IN fact there's only a few in Dublin. If there was a job closer even with a 20% pay cut I'd take it in a heartbeat. No one likes commuting!


1 - Not an option. That's a regressive step. Cars gave us freedom with mass adoption in the 50's onwards.
2 - That will happen anyway
3 - How do you discourage long commutes if even on good wages (although still below 100k) I cannot afford to buy in dublin, and there are no jobs in my field elsewhere?

On this topic, there are plenty of affordable apartments and houses in some suburbs of Dublin, on the Luas line. Why not live there?

ELM327

Dardania wrote: »

On this topic, there are plenty of affordable apartments and houses in some suburbs of Dublin, on the Luas line. Why not live there?

We obviously have a different definition of affordable.
I'm not willing to pay 300k for a shoebox apartment. It's not 2006.

NBar

This is typical Irish government tactics. Spin the story like this and then offer the other alternative of conjestion charging like in London and people will jump at that as the alternative. My biggest gripe is why are people driving big diesel suv’s in the city and only doing school runs etc.

Sure if everyone goes electric etc won’t the fines we are paying reduce also so it a win win.

I havd 3 cars all on the old tax system and a hybrid and I don’t want to get rid of my old cars as they are going great and I don’t use them all the time.

Planning and infrastructure is what’s needed not beating us with the tax stick the whole time

Pelvis

ELM327 wrote: »

We obviously have a different definition of affordable.
I'm not willing to pay 300k for a shoebox apartment. It's not 2006.

300k will get you a 3-bed semi-d in Dublin.

ELM327

Pelvis wrote: »

300k will get you a 3-bed semi-d in Dublin.

In a bad area, attached to another house, with no garden.
PASS.
Next?

Dardania

ELM327 wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

On this topic, there are plenty of affordable apartments and houses in some suburbs of Dublin, on the Luas line. Why not live there?

We obviously have a different definition of affordable.
I'm not willing to pay 300k for a shoebox apartment. It's not 2006.

So space considerations come into play in the cost benefit analysis - you could hypothetically afford to live in a shoebox apartment, but want more space?
The situation isn't black and white. I tend to agree with the (perhaps contrary) view that living deep in the countryside and commuting to work in Dublin is unsustainable, and should be discouraged. This behaviour present costs / externalities on the rest of people living closer to and in the city (increased traffic, pollution with ICEs, diversion of tax revenue to fund basic services in the rural areas etc.), and I don't agree with it. My view is the only people that should live in rural areas are farmers and hermits - not people who want the best of both worlds, partially funded disproportionately by others.

ELM327

But if everyone decided to move into dublin for the aforementioned 300k 3 bed semi on the edge of clondalkin or tallaght, a) there isnt enough for anyone so b) the price would go up and c) there isn't enough space to accomodate everyone anyway - due to the height restriction legislation.

I'm currently living in a large 3 bed apartment in meath. For which I paid just over 33% of your 300k mooted cost.
The plan is to move to a larger house in 18-30 months. Which will again be out in the country. The model of force everyone into the city won't work for everyone. For example: I'm on the autism spectrum and for sensory reasons I find it very difficult to live in a town/city due to the constant low level noise.

FriendsEV

ELM327 wrote: »

In a bad area, attached to another house, with no garden.
PASS.
Next?

Hope they tax the **** out of crazy commuters like yourself in that case

ELM327

FriendsEV wrote: »

Hope they tax the **** out of crazy commuters like yourself in that case

Eh, thanks?


If 30-60km each way is a "crazy commute" you've obviously never lived in Continental Europe or the US.