Government plans to base motor tax on distance travelled

BlackWizard

"Motorists may be taxed on distance driven rather than paying excise on fuel"

Motorists may be taxed on the distance they drive rather than paying excise on fuel at petrol station pumps, under plans proposed by senior officials.

The Government is considering numerous schemes to ensure the overall tax take from motoring does not drop significantly as a result of moves to lower emission vehicles.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/motorists-may-be-taxed-on-distance-driven-rather-than-paying-excise-on-fuel-1.3588114

ELM327

Absolute hogwash.
I will never vote again for anyone or any party who supports this

EV folk won't be impressed.
Folk doing high miles in ICE powered vehicles will likely not be effected so most will be fine with this.

Yup .......... a tax on usage was always favourable by many. Some of the many who are now in EVs won't be happy but it's a logical step, and necessary too.

Leonard Hofstadter

It was always going to happen once enough people stop buying ICE cars. Of course the Government wasn't going to let the motorist off that easily, and besides, if driving a car is as cheap as EV fanboys would have you believe, then everyone will drive more so there will be more congestion as well so that's not really logical either.

More worryingly, if they know how much you're using your car, they can also work out how fast you've been going, so there will be no point at all in owning a fast car (the intoxicating noise of a large engined petrol is part of the appeal of a fast car anyway, you don't need to be going fast at all to enjoy the noise of a V8).

I'd say they won't be going with a tracker system to find out usage tbh. Quite likely a crude enough self declaration thing like the property tax IMO

The bands would also be broad, om mayber 10k kms increments.

That'll be someway down the road anyway ( :pac: ) , in the interim early adopters to EV can still enjoy cheap motoring (rightly so IMO) and diesel drivers might well see excise duty on diesel increasing towards the levels seen on petrol. Carbon tax likely to rise too.

ELM327

Car clocking will soon be a huge business again!!

Alanstrainor

captainspeed wrote: »

More worryingly, if they know how much you're using your car, they can also work out how fast you've been going, so there will be no point at all in owning a fast car (the intoxicating noise of a large engined petrol is part of the appeal of a fast car anyway, you don't need to be going fast at all to enjoy the noise of a V8).

That's an interesting point, how will they know your mileage? It might not be as Orwellian having a tracker, a mileage check at an NCT centre perhaps? But how that works for new cars I don't know.

Really I think it was to be expected. I'm more surprised this is happening now, I would have guessed we were couple of years away from this being mentioned at all. It'll be an interesting one to see how this plays out.

MetzgerMeister

It might be done the same way as electricity meter reading. You give your car's mileage say at the beginning of the year and at the end of the year submit a reading. Yes it will be open to people clocking their cars but how else would it be done apart from using trackers?

frozenfrozen

All we can rely on is it won't be any cheaper than it is now, for anyone.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

Car clocking will soon be a huge business again!!

most folk wouldn't consider it to save a few quid. And if you want to get your mileage adjusted annually the charge for that needs to be considered too.

Alanstrainor wrote: »

That's an interesting point, how will they know your mileage? It might not be as Orwellian having a tracker, a mileage check at an NCT centre perhaps? But how that works for new cars I don't know. .........

NCT data would be an option most definitely. It could be as "simple" as a once a year submission on revenue site or similar.

ELM327

What about older cars who may have the odometer broken?
Or a car with a turn dial of numbers style odometer who reached 999,999 miles (like the million mile tundra https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-toyota-truck-looks-like-after-1-000-000-mi-1776141464) which is stuck on 999,999.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

What about older cars who may have the odometer broken?

If the odometer is broken then the speedometer is most likely broken too and that's an NCT fail.

ELM327 wrote: »

Or a car with a turn dial of numbers style odometer who reached 999,999 miles (like the million mile tundra https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-toyota-truck-looks-like-after-1-000-000-mi-1776141464) which is stuck on 999,999.

I'm sure there will be someway of catering for the few vehicles who'd fall into that "category". I'd propose a 20k mile band for anyone who can't or won't clarify their annual usage of the nation's roads

Marcusm

Augeo wrote: »

most folk wouldn't consider it to save a few quid. And if you want to get your mileage adjusted annually the charge for that needs to be considered too.




NCT data would be an option most definitely. It could be as "simple" as a once a year submission on revenue site or similar.

What happens for those who drive overseas regularly (including through NI).

Marcusm

Marcusm wrote: »

What happens for those who drive overseas regularly (including through NI).

That could be accommodated by the "It could be as "simple" as a once a year submission on revenue site or similar"

mossym

ELM327 wrote: »

What about older cars who may have the odometer broken?
Or a car with a turn dial of numbers style odometer who reached 999,999 miles (like the million mile tundra https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-toyota-truck-looks-like-after-1-000-000-mi-1776141464) which is stuck on 999,999.

if you can't provide a valid reading then something like you get charged a flat fee which is higher than the average paid, that will quick incentivise people to get them fixed, which , as has been pointed out, likely needs to happen for NCT purposes anyway

and for the super high mileage cars, the fact you were able to name one means it's a pretty rare case which isn't going to affect too many of the public

mossym

LIGHTNING wrote: »

^

100% on this! The government will take like 10-15cents off petrol and people will be fooled at how much "cheaper" it is :rolleyes:

optimistic post of the year right there

no reduction in gas prices, it'llbe positioned as an incentive to move people over to EVs

bazz26

I've said it plenty of times, the motorist in this country is a steady source of income for Revenue, it doesn't matter whether your car is powered by horse ****, fossil fuels or batteries - ultimately everyone who owns one pays and it was never going to be any other way. As the sheep are herded from one form of propulsion to another they will think of new ways to get that money from you.

As for clocking cars to reduce your usage, I wouldn't be surprised if they just introduce a standing charge or minimum mileage tax just like your electricity bill, to catch the low mileage owners.

ELM327

bazz26 wrote: »

I've said it plenty of times, the motorist in this country is a steady source of income for Revenue, it doesn't matter whether your car is powered by horse ****, fossil fuels or batteries - ultimately everyone who owns one pays and it was never going to be any other way. As the sheep are herded from one form of propulsion to another they will think of new ways to get that money from you.

As for clocking cars to reduce your usage, I wouldn't be surprised if they just introduce a standing charge or minimum mileage tax just like your electricity bill, to catch the low mileage owners.

Why can't they just increase motor tax. I don't understand this need to know how far everyone drives.

ELM327

Augeo wrote: »

If the odometer is broken then the speedometer is most likely broken too and that's an NCT fail.



I'm sure there will be someway of catering for the few vehicles who'd fall into that "category". I'd propose a 20k mile band for anyone who can't or won't clarify their annual usage of the nation's roads

I've had 2 cars that the odometer was broken on (one 1967 and one from the early 90's)
Speedo and tachometer both worked fine. NCT passed on the 90's car and all.

CIP4

ELM327 wrote: »

Why can't they just increase motor tax. I don't understand this need to know how far everyone drives.

Well they basically know how far everyone drives at it stands NCT records mileage at each test as does CVRT.

ELM327

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Didn't the A bracket for tax go up by 50% from its original amount? Seem to remember FIAT going mental about it

Yes it was €104 per year initially. Gone up to €120 now for EV and €170 for the "greenest" fossil fueled cars.

CIP4 wrote: »

Well they basically know how far everyone drives at it stands NCT records mileage at each test as does CVRT.

They do, but that's not recorded to be used for aggregation/taxation purposes now.
If there's a system where you self declare and it's say €200 flat fee + €25 for each 10k km above that, paid in advance, then that might be a little more palatable than a cent per KM rate monitored by a black box.

ELM327

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I ain't letting any blackbox be put in any of my cars.

My sarcasm detector is broken... but if you're serious then yes I agree.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

I've had 2 cars that the odometer was broken on (one 1967 and one from the early 90's)
Speedo and tachometer both worked fine. NCT passed on the 90's car and all.

Well I did say most likely. Given the age of the cars you mention I don't think there are many cars in use currently with broken odometers and working speedometers.

bazz26

ELM327 wrote: »

Why can't they just increase motor tax. I don't understand this need to know how far everyone drives.

They are losing money with more people switching to EVs on the lowest annual motor tax rate spending nothing at the pump. So they are down on both motor tax and duty from fuel, and it will only get worse over the next few years as EVs become more popular. Despite Leo & co telling us things are rosey, we still owe a **** load of money just to keep the country running every day.

ELM327

bazz26 wrote: »

They are losing money with more people switching to EVs on the lowest annual motor tax rate spending nothing at the pump. So they are down on both motor tax and duty from fuel, and it will only get worse over the next few years as EVs become more popular. Despite Leo & co telling us things are rosey, we still owe a **** load of money just to keep the country running every day.

Yes, we are running the country at a deficit even now as the boom is coming back


But.. if duty is to be reduced as less people drive fossil fueled cars, or those that do, drive the ones that pay sub €200 motor tax, why not increase motor tax to compensate? I don't understand that.

bazz26

Maybe it's something to do with the way motor tax and duty on fuel are two different types of taxes especially around business/commercial users? Casting two nets also catches you more fish than one.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

.......... why not increase motor tax to compensate? I don't understand that.

Well, taxing usage is fairer than just taxing.
Tax is meant to be fair and equitable.

bazz26

A lot of folks here were favouring sticking motor tax on fuel instead anyway so you paid as you drove but given you cannot do that with EVs then charging a flat rate per mile was obviously what they are thinking of instead. How they collect it is another thing though.

Alanstrainor

I moved all this motor tax discussion to this new thread, it's a big enough topic for it's own one.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Cost of fuel to decrease 85% so when all the excise is removed?

mossym

to be fair, this is likely just data gathering from the govt.same as we have seen before. throw a concept out, watch public opinion, use it to judge resistance to the idea.

probably even more likely this is the case with a suspected election

ELM327

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Cost of fuel to decrease 85% so when all the excise is removed?

That;'s another thing. Are they planning to do this while not altering fuel duty, or only removing some of it?

Alun

mossym wrote: »

to be fair, this is likely just data gathering from the govt.same as we have seen before. throw a concept out, watch public opinion, use it to judge resistance to the idea.

probably even more likely this is the case with a suspected election

Indeed. The clue is in what was actually written in the article as opposed to the sensationalist thread title.

Motorists may be taxed on the distance they drive rather than paying excise on fuel at petrol station pumps, under plans proposed by senior officials.

The Government is considering numerous schemes to ensure the overall tax take from motoring does not drop significantly as a result of moves to lower emission vehicles.

Not a done deal, not even a plan really, just one option amongst many possible ones.

Silent Running

Another direct attack on rural dwellers. Life in the country would be nigh on impossible without racking up a load of miles that urban drivers wouldn't have to do.

And don't give me that bollox that we should all be living in cities. That's dystopia right there!

ELM327

Silent Running wrote: »

Another direct attack on rural dwellers. Life in the country would be nigh on impossible without racking up a load of miles that urban drivers wouldn't have to do.

And don't give me that bollox that we should all be living in cities. That's dystopia right there!

+1
I moved to meath as I couldnt afford to live in dublin.
So they want to penalise me for that with per use charges meaning I should just live in dublin anyway.

Riskymove

Silent Running wrote: »

Life in the country would be nigh on impossible without racking up a load of miles that urban drivers wouldn't have to do.

well then you are paying more tax at the pump anyway
so what's the difference?

Dravokivich

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

It might be done the same way as electricity meter reading. You give your car's mileage say at the beginning of the year and at the end of the year submit a reading. Yes it will be open to people clocking their cars but how else would it be done apart from using trackers?

You don't have to tax for the year. You tax ahead for the next period, be that 3 months, 6 months, 12 months. Are we meant to anticipate our mileage then recoup the difference or carry that over into the next period?

Honestly taxing a car is just an admin task. It should be a set value.

Silent Running

Riskymove wrote: »

well then you are paying more tax at the pump anyway
so what's the difference?

I don't use pumps.

MarkN

I’m ok with that method for tax but this also sounds like further supplementary VRT charges to me. Absolute joke.

Marcusm

ELM327 wrote: »

That;'s another thing. Are they planning to do this while not altering fuel duty, or only removing some of it?

They’re not going to remove any fuel duty and it will rise with the carbon tax increase. The basic point is that they can see the fiscal contribution from motorists dropping and need to find ways to top it back up - the suggested minimum quantum of VRT is unlikely to make Nissan, Hyundai or Kia very happy. I assume at the moment that the VRT rebate and SEAI grant effectively reduce the VRT below nil.

Silent Running

Silent Running wrote: »

Another direct attack on rural dwellers. Life in the country would be nigh on impossible without racking up a load of miles that urban drivers wouldn't have to do.

And don't give me that bollox that we should all be living in cities. That's dystopia right there!

Meh .........as a relatively rural dweller I have little issue with it. You use you pay, simple concept.

ELM327 wrote: »

+1
I moved to meath as I couldnt afford to live in dublin.
So they want to penalise me for that with per use charges meaning I should just live in dublin anyway.

A few quid in extra motor taxation quite likely wouldn't cover the increased rent or property cost to move from Meath to Dublin. If it does then I suppose moving to Dublin might be an option for you in the years ahead.

Skatedude

ELM327 wrote: »

Absolute hogwash.
I will never vote again for anyone or any party who supports this

I would gladly vote them in for life and hand over my first born,

Tuco88

Id be very surprised if this happens. Its too awkward to implement think about it, this is "Ireland" we couldnt handle electronic voting machine's.

They will stick to screwing us sideways at the pump and the paper disc. Thats fine.

Let us move to the EV, like they sold us the Diesel gimmick
Then nail us again rinse and repeat....

Clever thinking by the Gov I'll give them that. Any hero trying to generate his own electrical source will be taxed also.

Just shows you they couldnt give a flying feck about being "Green"

boombang

Nobody likes paying tax. However, given that we have to pay tax, doesn't it make sense that we do so in the fairest, most sensible way?

The growth of EVs means that ICE drivers would be paying while the others don't. That's not fair. This proposal is one way around that. It's not a perfect solution, but it seems sensible enough to me.

I think people need to get over their understandable anti-tax feelings an engage their brains on how motor tax should be reformed.

Atlantic Dawn

Sounds like they see there's no way to put a marker in household electricity.

ricimaki

This would have to be introduced in yearly mileage bands, instead of some multiplier of your mileage, or else everyone will be clocking their cars. Something along the lines of 0-10,000 km is band A, 10,001-20,000 is band B, etc.
The collection would have to be done at the NCT center though. I can't see any other way for them to check how much mileage your car has done. Motor tax could possibly change to a retroactive tax system rather than the current proactive system

Shefwedfan

It will be 2025 before they even look at this.

In the meantime the main part of the article is missed.

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has already indicated that carbon taxes will rise in the October budget, saying the State will have to “grasp the nettle” to reach its climate-change commitments.

Excise rates on petrol and diesel have remained unchanged since 2012, with 58.7 cent excise and a 4.6 carbon charge on a litre of petrol. The corresponding rates for diesel are 47.9 cent and 5.3 cent.

The Department of Finance tax strategy papers, which include the study of environment tax, says there is a “strong environmental rationale” for eliminating this gap.

Expect the next budget to throw circa 5 cent per ltr onto diesel and the following one another 5 cent so in 2 years time both diesel & petrol will be at 58.x cent excise...

Once they have hit this target then they might look at what else they can do....

At the moment the amount of electric cars on the road is 1% or so, to implement a new system will cost millions. Not worth it for the return. Cheaper just to hit the diesel car, its not like the last 2 years every other country in the World hasn't done the same.

The constant stream of articles in the press about Ireland missing their environmental target should really have your spidey senses tingling. All the government will do is point to them and say they had to? the big bad Europeans made us....

Plenty of diesel nuts around Ireland to tax the arse off them till 2025....then they will go after the poor electric cars

Anyone disagree?

P.S. I do have a diesel car :-)

Billgirlylegs

Alanstrainor wrote: »

That's an interesting point, how will they know your mileage? It might not be as Orwellian having a tracker, a mileage check at an NCT centre perhaps? But how that works for new cars I don't know.

Really I think it was to be expected. I'm more surprised this is happening now, I would have guessed we were couple of years away from this being mentioned at all. It'll be an interesting one to see how this plays out.

Unfortunately I can remember back to 1983 (and further), when this kind of stuff was mooted for insurance and "road tax". Load it on the petrol/diesel.
It made sense then in that you drive a lot, you pay a lot, and it makes sense now - BUT - it won't happen. Political hot potato.
People in rural areas "forced to" drive 40-100 km to get to work as opposed to the Dubs "whingeing" about their 5 km spin.
Anyway, measuring it?
Trackers? Where will these trackers be ?
NCT? What about new cars?
How about "clocked" cars.
Who will administer all these new accounts, and calculate who owes what?
What happens to those who don't pay?

The authorities have no interest in stopping people breaking speed limits, breaking red lights or parking illegally, so I think tracking every car on the road is unrealistic.

This is kite flying to guage reaction, and not very well thought out.

Shefwedfan

You can imagine the Dail meeting when they try to talk about this and the 2 boyo's from Kerry who own a fuel stations start going off on one....the cap might be fired off his head that day :-)

At the moment they are upset because your not allowed be hammered drunk when driving :-)

oceanman

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You can imagine the Dail meeting when they try to talk about this and the 2 boyo's from Kerry who own a fuel stations start going off on one....the cap might be fired off his head that day :-)

At the moment they are upset because your not allowed be hammered drunk when driving :-)

I think that's a slight exaggeration...