Should people who refuse to fold up buggies for wheelchair users on buses be fined?

ayux4rj6zql2ph

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Dravokivich

It'll take more than the dail the get that through considering the current position of first in wins, is backed by eu.

Gatling

Absolutely they should ,but this won't change a thing ,ross said one thing Leo said something else.
Meanwhile pregnant women are getting stickers to remind rail passengers they are pregnant and should be given a seat

Try_harder

I thought a case taken re Equality legislation meant they did not have priority over buggies?

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Fann Linn

Gatling wrote: »

Absolutely they should ,but this won't change a thing ,ross said one thing Leo said something else.
Meanwhile pregnant women are getting stickers to remind rail passengers they are pregnant and should be given a seat

How do we know those 'pregnant' women are actually pregnant? They'll probably end up like disabled blue badges with all and sundry having them.

I know I'm not a gynacologist but I'll have a look.

Dravokivich

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

didn't realise one happened

It did. Buses are now being bought with a second space due to it. But that effectively means 2 unfolded buggies.

Gatling

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

Many drivers do intervene and make parents fold up the buggy if a wheelchair user is incoming.

From experience they don't , they simply ask can the mother with a Buggy to fold it down ,they are under no obligation to do so.
I've a seen it a few times where a mother has totally ignored a driver's request leaving wheelchair user waiting for another bus

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Gatling

Fann Linn wrote: »

How do we know those 'pregnant' women are actually pregnant? They'll probably end up like disabled blue badges with all and sundry having them.

I know I'm not a gynacologist but I'll have a look.

I've no idea how it going to work.
See here

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/baby-on-board-badges-being-introduced-for-pregnant-women-taking-public-transport-858786.html

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hollymartins

Gatling wrote: »

I've no idea how it going to work.
See here

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/baby-on-board-badges-being-introduced-for-pregnant-women-taking-public-transport-858786.html

I received a badge from the midwife at one of my scans so perhaps they won't just dish them out. Never used it though, I used to leave work early in my last trimester to make sure I got a seat, when I didn't I was never offered one, not even the priority seat

AlekSmart

Try_harder wrote: »

I thought a case taken re Equality legislation meant they did not have priority over buggies?

"They" never had guaranteed availability of the Disabled Bay.

What the regulations provide for is that the Operators must provide the relevant Dedicated Space,the means of access to it (usually via a ramp) and the appropriate level of training for Staff who operate the service.

That ends the legal requirement for the Operator.

As it currently stands,a Busdriver MUST request (and be heard to Request) the Buggy owner to fold and stow the buggy to accomodate the Wheelchair user.

Should the Buggy Pusher refuse,then the matter ends there,and the Wheelchair Passenger is refused access.

This is the current situation in The REPUBLIC of IRELAND and up until March 2017,the UK.

In March 2017,following a lengthy series of Judgements and appeals in what is now known as the Paulley Case,the UK Busdriver is now required to venture further and ascertain a reason why the Buggy Pusher refuses,up to,and including Switching Off the Engine and waiting to see if that will prompt a rethink.

The salient point here,is that even under the new UK regulations,a Busdriver does NOT have the legal authority to force the Buggy Pusher to fold & stow.

The UK Supreme Court,not having many Busdrivers on it's bench, has now effectively exposed UK Busdrivers to significantly increased risk of confrontation and perhaps assault,when attempting to enforce the Court's ruling on the Streets.

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0025.html

The Supreme Court unanimously allows Mr Paulley’s appeal, albeit only to a limited extent.
Lord Neuberger gives the lead judgment (with which Lord Reed agrees) allowing the appeal but only to the extent that FirstGroup’s policy requiring a driver to simply request a non-wheelchair user to vacate the space without taking any further steps was unjustified. Where a driver who has made such a request concludes that a refusal is unreasonable, he or she should consider some further step to pressurise the non-wheelchair user to vacate the space, depending on the circumstances. Lord Toulson and Lord Sumption write concurring judgments. On the issue of the order to be made, this majority declines to uphold an award of damages.

The majority of NTA spec double deck vehicles now have TWO spaces,BOTH of which can be utilised by Occupied Buggies,with one space being approved for Wheelchairs.

The convention,and standing instruction for all Bus Atha Cliath Busdrivers is to advise the initial Buggy Pusher to occupy the clearly marked Buggy Space,just opposite the Centre Doors and behind the Stairwell.

This then leaves the Wheelchair space free for a second Occupied Buggy,whose pusher should be advised,on boarding that they WILL be asked to fold & stow the buggy should a Wheelchair user present for boarding.

By far and away the most confounding element in this scenario,is the NTA insistance on fitting a pair of Flip Down Seats in the Buggy Space.

These seats are viewed (mistakenly) as being intended for elderly or mobility challenged passengers...THEY ARE NOT. (The two seats behind ARE marked for that sector).

If the NTA would remove this pair of Flip Down seats from the new vehicle specification it would immediately improve the Access issue for BOTH Wheelchair AND Buggy users...Retro removing the seats would really solve up to 90% of the often fractious and ill tempered exchanges between Busdrivers and Passengers themselves.

Make it simple.....the simpler the better,and remove most of the "choice" available,as,left to their own devices,the average Human Being will choose what is most convienent for THEMSELVES.

It should be noted ,that in the immediate wake of the Paulley judgement,there was a spell of increased activity in the Irish context,which luckily did not last long.

It's probably not lost on Irish Public Transport Operators,that should an Irish Busdriver,embark upon the course of action now required by the UK Supreme Court Judgement a veritable Tsunami of Court Cases would ensue,focusing upon individuals being subject to excessive embarrassment,or personal stress by wild-eyed Busdrivers.

Mr Paulleys total award,following his initial successful case was £4,500,a sum which would be considered derisory in the Irish system,however the Supreme Court judgement failed to maintain the aware,leaving Mr Paulley with only the satisfaction of kinda,sorta winning the case ?

Heaven alone knows what will develop if our Courts get involved on this issue ? :eek:

uck51js9zml2yt

Try getting a parent who has shopping and a young child in a buggy to somehow manage the bags, take the child( probably sleeping) out of the buggy and fold it.
It's absolute nonsense at its finest.

Stephen15

I don't get how this could be enforced? Who would issue the fine? The bus driver or DB/BE/GAI/NTA through CCTV evidence. If it is the bus driver who is tasked with the responsibility then he/she would need to be provided with a warrant card and wear an id badge in order to be able to issue fines surely similar to ticket inspectors. Such a thing would really open a huge can of worms I would imagine.

iamwhoiam

Kayden Wrong Sphere wrote: »

Try getting a parent who has shopping and a young child in a buggy to somehow manage the bags, take the child( probably sleeping) out of the buggy and fold it.
It's absolute nonsense at its finest.

And try holding a new born baby while folding a buggy . Or should she hand the baby to some randomer to hold ?

uck51js9zml2yt

iamwhoiam wrote: »

And try holding a new born baby while folding a buggy . Or should she hand the baby to some randomer to hold ?

Ive been that soldier. I found a wonderful word...in fact, I think I invented it......NO!....works a treat

Pawwed Rig

Pregnancy badges are idiotic imo. If someone wants a seat and isn't offered one why not ask for it? Are people that infantile that rather than engage with other human beings they will stand waering a badge?

The worst thing that will happen is that the person will say no - in which case ask one of the other 40 people in the carriage that is sitting.

Pretty ignorant to leave a guy in a wheelchair stranded if you can fold a buggy (not always possible to be fair) but some people are just dicks.

bobbyss

Very difficult for a person to fold pram with baby and odds and ends in tow. How is it possible? What if baby is special needs? What if bus is crowded?

Wonder does this new id thing for pregnant women have an expiry date like the disabled car card?

satguy

I think that the babies safety must come first, (holding a baby if the bus crashed would be very bad), The wheelchair user should be asked to wait for the next bus.

Tickityboo

Kayden Wrong Sphere wrote: »

Try getting a parent who has shopping and a young child in a buggy to somehow manage the bags, take the child( probably sleeping) out of the buggy and fold it.
It's absolute nonsense at its finest.

It's even harder for the person in the wheelchair to get out of it and put it on the luggage rack!!

ayux4rj6zql2ph

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mvl

yes, what's wrong with waiting for next bus ?
- either the wheelchair owners, the children/buggies, or most of all, the standard passengers that have no seats and stand in the bus ... safety first for all

or is the issue here that there should be more buses ?

PS: for me it is common sense letting a heavily pregnant woman take a seat anywhere, and i wouldn't be offended if she jumps a queue in front of me neither.

AlekSmart

Stephen15 wrote: »

I don't get how this could be enforced? Who would issue the fine? The bus driver or DB/BE/GAI/NTA through CCTV evidence. If it is the bus driver who is tasked with the responsibility then he/she would need to be provided with a warrant card and wear an id badge in order to be able to issue fines surely similar to ticket inspectors. Such a thing would really open a huge can of worms I would imagine.

Currently,here in the Republic,a fine can only be issued by a Court of Law after the relevant procedures have been implemented.

Generally there will be an offer for a person to accept a lesser penalty,such as a Standard Fare,in lieu of going to court,where the risk of incurring a larger fine is ever present.

Ginger83

Kayden Wrong Sphere wrote: »

Ive been that soldier. I found a wonderful word...in fact, I think I invented it......NO!....works a treat

I use 1 myself, starts with t, ends with p.

The solution is that ALL buggies should be folded unless a child is disabled. If there is a buggy space and wheelchair space a 2nd parent with buggy should be told to wait for the next bus.

The disabled are too quiet, they should block the bus if refused admission. I blame the driver, he/she should refuse to drive another inch til the b***h folds the buggy.

Gatling

bobbyss wrote: »

Very difficult for a person to fold pram with baby and odds and ends in tow.

It's only difficult if you choose it to be ,

The days of mother's with 20 bags hanging off a stroller are rarely seen now a days ,
The most common excuse I hear on my local routes is I don't know how to fold my designer buggy or my ma told me you can't make fold I'm entitled to not fold .

People need to stop looking at people with buggies as some poor unfortunate sods with nobody to help them,
Most are perfectly able bodied persons who should be encouraged to fold and let people with disabilities to board a bus .

Stephen15

AlekSmart wrote: »

Currently,here in the Republic,a fine can only be issued by a Court of Law after the relevant procedures have been implemented.

Generally there will be an offer for a person to accept a lesser penalty,such as a Standard Fare,in lieu of going to court,where the risk of incurring a larger fine is ever present.

Exactly it would be more hassle than it's really worth. At the end of the day what would probably happen is the driver will get out a yellow book and pen and ask for a person's details only to receive a nice tirade full of abuse and if he/she persists to try and fine the person a hanky may a requirement to wipe away the salvia.

It's only economic to fine someone who is costing the company revenue ie a fare evader or a vandal. Currently has someone ever received the €50 fine for placing their feet on Irish Rail seats for example, I highly doubt it as feet on seats is not costing the company revenue in the grand scheme of things.

Fann Linn

Stephen15 wrote: »

Exactly it would be more hassle than it's really worth. At the end of the day what would probably happen is the driver will get out a yellow book and pen and ask for a person's details only to receive a nice tirade full of abuse and if he/she persists to try and fine the person a hanky may a requirement to wipe away the salvia.

It's only economic to fine someone who is costing the company revenue ie a fare evader or a vandal. Currently has someone ever received the €50 fine for placing their feet on Irish Rail seats for example, I highly doubt it as feet on seats is not costing the company revenue in the grand scheme of things.

An issue that Transport Police could possibly resolve?

boundlessSea

The best solution might be to have at least one space on a bus dedicated for a wheel chair, which cannot be used for any other purposes, this would be a little inefficient but would prevent a wheel chair user feeling that someone had to give up their position for them which is a bit unfair for the wheel chair user. A person with a wheel chair should always have priority over buggies.

Having at least one wheel chair only space could allow wheel chair users to check if a particular bus has a wheel chair using the Dublin Bus app, or to even book a space (but this might be tricky to implement).

Stephen15

Fann Linn wrote: »

An issue that Transport Police could possibly resolve?

Transport police forces generally only police rail based transport. In London for example the BTP only respond to incidents on Network Rail and The Tube and The Met respond to all bus and other road based transport.

Supposing you introduced a transport police and based them in Hueston or Connolly which would be most likely and there was an incident on a bus out in Bray do send send the transport police all the way from Hueston or Connolly even if AGS might only be 5 mins away. Likewise in reverse if someone was mugged across the road from Hueston or Connolly do you send AGS who could be 10 mins away even if the transport police were only across the road as technically the transport police can only respond to incidents on public transport or in stations/track.

Carawaystick

boundlessSea wrote: »

The best solution might be to have at least one space on a bus dedicated for a wheel chair, which cannot be used for any other purposes,

How would you define a wheelchair user? to dedicate these spaces?

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Stephen15

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

What I have found out in recent days is that Bus Eireann are reintroducing double decker buses with centre doors on them, these will take away a few seats as a result which could make some people more intent on getting onboard before and buggy or wheelchair.

It’s only happening in Galway and Limerick cities for now though.

I assume they would have a similar arrangement to the DB SG class?

AndrewJRenko

Ginger83 wrote: »

The disabled are too quiet, they should block the bus if refused admission. I blame the driver, he/she should refuse to drive another inch til the b***h folds the buggy.

It's a great idea. The other passengers will make sure the matter gets sorted quick enough.

ED E

This was covered on Liveline before. Apparently a wheelchair user getting left behind by several busses isn't uncommon.

Say you're on 50 minute Sunday intervals and two busses have buggies onboard when passing a stop, is it reasonable to expect a wheelchair user to wait the guts of three hours? I'm not sure what the solution is but there are definitely some mothers who are just pure wagons using DB.

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Ginger83

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's a great idea. The other passengers will make sure the matter gets sorted quick enough.

Yes. Block the bus from moving, nobody goes anywhere. The passengers won't be long folding that buggy.

Part of the issue is the driver refusing to let the ramp down because if the wheelchair user got onto the passageway the bus doesn't move until the issue is sorted.

Stephen15

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

Common sense isn't always that common, Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus might operate out of Broadstone and be part of the C.I.E group, but they don't always do things the same way.

Well naturally enough as they both operate different types of services.

dashcamdanny

The best solution in the one New York City uses. ALL prams must be folded all of the time at the door.

The wheel chair bay is there to accommodate wheel chair users. People who simply need it.

Parents dont need it.

Ginger83

dashcamdanny wrote: »

The best solution in the one New York City uses. ALL prams must be folded all of the time at the door.

The wheel chair bay is there to accommodate wheel chair users. People who simply need it.

Parents dont need it.

+1

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dashcamdanny

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

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Was not a million years ago every bus had no low floor access. All prams had to be folded. Wheel chairs had to stay at home.

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Stephen15

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

Bus Eireann introduces the first one in 1997.

Since 2004 all their city fleet is low floor.

I remember buses with steps, buggies got on, wheelchairs with assistance and difficulty.

I don't know about BE but DB has only been all lowfloor since 2012 when the last RV Olympian buses were replaced by the GT class.

Dravokivich

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

Bus Eireann introduces the first one in 1997.

Since 2004 all their city fleet is low floor.

I remember buses with steps, buggies got on, wheelchairs with assistance and difficulty.

With Dublin bus they all had to be folded down. There was no room for them unfolded even if they did manage to get on.

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AlekSmart

Ginger83 wrote: »

Yes. Block the bus from moving, nobody goes anywhere. The passengers won't be long folding that buggy.

Part of the issue is the driver refusing to let the ramp down because if the wheelchair user got onto the passageway the bus doesn't move until the issue is sorted.

You then run the very real risk of a confrontation developing,which has a high likelyhood of becoming physical.

Portraying the Busdriver as a contributing element to this is somewhat far from reality.

Once the passenger is aboard the Bus,the Driver and Company now have a very significant duty of care towards them.
I will not embark a Wheelchair user until I am satisfied that he/she can fully & safely access the designated Wheelchair Space.
Allowing that Wheelchair user to board,in the knowledge that their designated space is NOT clear is not a reasonable action (particularly from a professional driver)
Suggesting that a full size wheelchair,and a full size buggy should joust each other in the gangway will most certainly not end well ....for anybody concerned...including the other able bodied passengers.

As long as the intending passenger remains on the footpath,the Busdriver retains control over the situation.
Advising the disappointed passenger of the capacity situation,contacting Route Control and also advising them,before continuing with the journey to benefit passengers alreay on board.

The battle you seek,cannot be fought on the platform of a bus.
It can only be legislated for,and will certainly require the attention of the only agency tasked with enforcement of the Law in Ireland...An Garda Siochana.

Whether or not we,as a society,really need to go down that road is a totally different issue.

The reality,all over the World,is that mainstream Mass Public Transport strives to serve as broad a base as possible,but in the full knowledge that there will always be a demographic,for whom access cannot be guaranteed.

Perhaps renewed consideration of the suggestion put forward by then CIE Chairman GT Paul Conlon in 1984,might move the topic forward today....

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/14th-january-1984/19/black-taxi-plans-corning-at-cie

CIE was a very early innovator in this area,as shown in the FFG built full-access vehicle which was used in the early 1980's in Dublin.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110807035822im_/http://www.skylineaviation.co.uk/buses/+45-XZL.jpg

Encouraging shouting and boxing matches on Bus Platforms is about the WORST solution I can see for this problem ?

Isambard

any reasonable person would of course fold a buggy. If an unreasonable person refuses to, all the poor driver can do is drive on. Agree with Alek, it's not up to the driver to referee a dispute.

AndrewJRenko

Isambard wrote: »

any reasonable person would of course fold a buggy. If an unreasonable person refuses to, all the poor driver can do is drive on. Agree with Alek, it's not up to the driver to referee a dispute.

That's just not true - the driver does have other options. He can drive on, or not drive on. He can just sit there and wait, or call the Gardai if required.

AlekSmart wrote: »

You then run the very real risk of a confrontation developing,which has a high likelyhood of becoming physical.

Portraying the Busdriver as a contributing element to this is somewhat far from reality.

Once the passenger is aboard the Bus,the Driver and Company now have a very significant duty of care towards them.
I will not embark a Wheelchair user until I am satisfied that he/she can fully & safely access the designated Wheelchair Space.
Allowing that Wheelchair user to board,in the knowledge that their designated space is NOT clear is not a reasonable action (particularly from a professional driver)
Suggesting that a full size wheelchair,and a full size buggy should joust each other in the gangway will most certainly not end well ....for anybody concerned...including the other able bodied passengers.

As long as the intending passenger remains on the footpath,the Busdriver retains control over the situation.
Advising the disappointed passenger of the capacity situation,contacting Route Control and also advising them,before continuing with the journey to benefit passengers alreay on board.

The battle you seek,cannot be fought on the platform of a bus.
It can only be legislated for,and will certainly require the attention of the only agency tasked with enforcement of the Law in Ireland...An Garda Siochana.

Whether or not we,as a society,really need to go down that road is a totally different issue.

The reality,all over the World,is that mainstream Mass Public Transport strives to serve as broad a base as possible,but in the full knowledge that there will always be a demographic,for whom access cannot be guaranteed.

Perhaps renewed consideration of the suggestion put forward by then CIE Chairman GT Paul Conlon in 1984,might move the topic forward today....

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/14th-january-1984/19/black-taxi-plans-corning-at-cie

CIE was a very early innovator in this area,as shown in the FFG built full-access vehicle which was used in the early 1980's in Dublin.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110807035822im_/http://www.skylineaviation.co.uk/buses/+45-XZL.jpg

Encouraging shouting and boxing matches on Bus Platforms is about the WORST solution I can see for this problem ?

I have some sympathy with your position, and indeed, the driver can't be expected to get involved in any physical intervention.



The principle of accessibility limitations is accepted by all. For example, the current buses have one wheelchair space, so if two wheelchair users are waiting to get on, that limitation will kick in. The problem arises when the limitation occurs from misuse of the existing facilities.



I'm not sure if your suggestion of 'black taxi' service for parents with buggies is a great solution here either.


If it's OK for drivers to refuse access to wheelchair users, then surely it's OK for drivers to refuse access to parents with buggies who won't fold them down?