Would you call this "skinny shaming"?

chite

Maybe a bit of an ott way to describe this, but the alliteration was too good to not use.

Irish Times magazine writer, Jennifer O'Connell, sees a dress on Zara and said this on Twitter:
"I love @ZARA clothes but it’s hard to give my money to a brand that normalises this kind of body shape. This is in its women’s section, by the way"

Then in a reply to what Zara said to her:
"Thank you for your response. I’m not sure what your strict and total commitment to a healthy lifestyle entails, but that body shape is not attainable or desirable for the vast majority of women."

https://twitter.com/jenoconnell/status/1025030643930095621

I get her sentiment, you'd want the models to be healthy and you'd want the modelling industry to not pressurise models into being underweight just so that clothes look good on them, or whatever the hell the idea is. If you look at the Zara website all the female models look like this though, so models of various shapes and sizes should be shown.

In saying that though, there's plenty of people with this kind of body, the sort of Keira Knightly/ Angelina Jolie androgynous look. What she originally said in the 1st tweet implies that this body shape is unacceptable and masculine looking apparently. When I first saw the photo, the hips definitely implied that the model was female.

Interesting point made by someone (which was never answered by the writer):
"@jenoconnell I wonder if this was a photo of a very overweight or obese model would you have still said that "it’s hard to give my money to a brand that normalises this kind of body shape?"

Airyfairy12

It is skinny shaming. There are lots of women who are naturally skinny, particularly younger women who often have a faster metabolism which slows down as we get older. Surely insisting that this body shape is 'wrong' or in way unhealthy only contributes to self esteem issues and eating disorders in young girls and women, particularly at a time when the 'ideal' shape thats been consistently forced down our throats is the Kardashian/Jenner craze of massive breasts, tiny waists and large backside. Stick a pair of large breasts on that model and nobody would care how skinny she appears. So what are naturally skinny, small breasted women expected to do to fit into societies standards of what women are supposed to look like? Stuff their body with silicone? binge on food to force weight gain? Gain an obsession with muscle building and body sculpting to gain an hour glass figure?
Implying a young girl looks like a boy because she has small breasts is horrifically irresponsible and the complete opposite of body positivity.

Keep in mind theres been a huge increase in plus size models lately which is great but im noticing that more frequently these plus size models are obese and applauded for being so. Why do we have to shame one body shape to lift up another? Women, like men, come in a large range of shapes and sizes.

Emme

Skinny shaming or not I find that Zara is a shop that does not cater for women with boobs and their styles tend to suit slimmer women best. I have been a size 10 and am now a 14. I only ever got skirts and jeans in Zara even at size 10. Their tops and dresses don't suit women with boobs (I'm talking DD cup size and over :D).

Zara targets slim customers with small boobs. That's their market and I have a friend with that body shape who shops there all the time. I don't skinny shame her because I can't find dresses or tops to fit in Zara.

chite

Emme wrote: »

Skinny shaming or not I find that Zara is a shop that does not cater for women with boobs and their styles tend to suit slimmer women best. I have been a size 10 and am now a 14. I only ever got skirts and jeans in Zara even at size 10. Their tops and dresses don't suit women with boobs (I'm talking DD cup size and over :D).

Zara targets slim customers with small boobs. That's their market and I have a friend with that body shape who shops there all the time. I don't skinny shame her because I can't find dresses or tops to fit in Zara.

Didn't know that. In a way I guess it helps, cos otherwise they might have to resort to some children's clothing like jeans for example (I've done that but I'm not skinny, just because it can be cheaper than a similar size for ladies - plus I'm short )

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

It is skinny shaming. There are lots of women who are naturally skinny, particularly younger women who often have a faster metabolism which slows down as we get older. Surely insisting that this body shape is 'wrong' or in way unhealthy only contributes to self esteem issues and eating disorders in young girls and women, particularly at a time when the 'ideal' shape thats been consistently forced down our throats is the Kardashian/Jenner craze of massive breasts, tiny waists and large backside. Stick a pair of large breasts on that model and nobody would care how skinny she appears. So what are naturally skinny, small breasted women expected to do to fit into societies standards of what women are supposed to look like? Stuff their body with silicone? binge on food to force weight gain? Gain an obsession with muscle building and body sculpting to gain an hour glass figure?
Implying a young girl looks like a boy because she has small breasts is horrifically irresponsible and the complete opposite of body positivity.

Keep in mind theres been a huge increase in plus size models lately which is great but im noticing that more frequently these plus size models are obese and applauded for being so. Why do we have to shame one body shape to lift up another? Women, like men, come in a large range of shapes and sizes.

There always seems to be a cycle of perceived beauty standards over the years (Marilyn Monroe - Kate Moss era - and now the instagram bubble arse) as you said yourself. You never really see these significant fluctuations in body shape in male fashion/modelling compared to women. I guess the fashion industry's method of putting down women's self-esteem always helped boost makeup etc. sales, cos otherwise women wouldn't be as self-conscious and buy into this stuff.

Absolutely agree with the bold part, I think she didn't realise what she said would come across as a bit insulting for people who look like that IMO. On plus size models, more power to them, again you'd want a modelling industry that ensures that they're healthy. It's more well known that overweight/obese people are predisposed to health issues down the road so again so long they're fine in that sense then great. It's also more PC to not fat-shame compared to the other extreme, this video of the woman's answer to the man's question reminds me of this (I agree it came across as a bit loaded and awkward the way he asked, but then I felt that way because I feel that I would be offending her if that was me, we've been conditioned to think this way ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6IVE2wG74k

Airyfairy12

chite wrote: »

There always seems to be a cycle of perceived beauty standards over the years (Marilyn Monroe - Kate Moss era - and now the instagram bubble arse) as you said yourself. You never really see these significant fluctuations in body shape in male fashion/modelling compared to women. I guess the fashion industry's method of putting down women's self-esteem always helped boost makeup etc. sales, cos otherwise women wouldn't be as self-conscious and buy into this stuff.

Absolutely agree with the bold part, I think she didn't realise what she said would come across as a bit insulting for people who look like that IMO. On plus size models, more power to them, again you'd want a modelling industry that ensures that they're healthy. It's more well known that overweight/obese people are predisposed to health issues down the road so again so long they're fine in that sense then great. It's also more PC to not fat-shame compared to the other extreme, this video of the woman's answer to the man's question reminds me of this (I agree it came across as a bit loaded and awkward the way he asked, but then I felt that way because I feel that I would be offending her if that was me, we've been conditioned to think this way ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6IVE2wG74k

Totally agree that theres always going to be beauty standards, that dates back thousands of years and its never going to change but it does get under my skin a bit when women are shamed for not living up to those standards. Particularly when that shaming is played off as a sense of 'care' towards skinny or fat people and as you pointed out, this is always directed at women, very rarely is it directed towards to men and never to the same extent.
I also have to disagree with the woman in the video, as a skinny girl (and always been healthy) ive been called anorexic, told to go eat a sandwich and have had other rude and nasty remarks make about my appearance, most of them from well meaning people. The male members of my family who are also skinny as size usually comes down to genetics, dont seem to have had the same amount of comments made about their appearance. I think we can only blame the media for so much of it, it really comes down to self righteous, arrogant and insecure people who dont think about how their words might effect others.

milli milli

but that body shape is not attainable or desirable for the vast majority of women.

Charming!
It’s horrible when other women attack each other like this. That writer sounds like she is insecure about her own body shape and is just lashing out.

Carlos Orange

Thinking of body shape as something you attain seems terribly unhealthy.

meeeeh

It might be just me but everything now is skinny or fat shaming. It's not a secret that designers like to use slender teenage girls to sell clothes to women in their 20s, 30s, 40s and older. Our bodies change with age and for whatever reason men's clothes are usually not modelled by 16 year olds. Argument about overweight models is completely redundant in this case and I challenge you to search through whole Zara website and find a size 10 model. I'm not going to suggest you should look for plus size models because there are none.

Personally I'm not bothered by the size of models but I think Jennifer O'Connell has a point. Average woman in Ireland is size 14 or 16 and I really don't think it's skinny shaming if someone wonders why body shapes less than 10% of women have are used to model vast majority of clothing (or all in case of Zara).

And btw is then any concern about eating disorders in fashion industry which are well documented also skinny shaming? Some countries even ban use of models who are under certain age, bmi or require doctors cert that they are healthy. At 40 and size 10, normal bmi I am quite happy with myself but as fashion obsessed 15 year-old I thought I was fat despite being healthy weight. I was on diets at 13. Is it really so offensive to ask that models are more representative of how we look?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Emme wrote: »

Skinny shaming or not I find that Zara is a shop that does not cater for women with boobs and their styles tend to suit slimmer women best. I have been a size 10 and am now a 14. I only ever got skirts and jeans in Zara even at size 10. Their tops and dresses don't suit women with boobs (I'm talking DD cup size and over :D).

Zara targets slim customers with small boobs. That's their market and I have a friend with that body shape who shops there all the time. I don't skinny shame her because I can't find dresses or tops to fit in Zara.

That is very good to know. I find it hard to buy tops that aren't flapping off my chest and have to be careful with necklines. End up wearing men's t-shirts and shirts but it'd be nice to have fancy pretty clothes to wear without stuffing the heck out of my bra

chite

meeeeh wrote: »

Argument about overweight models is completely redundant in this case and I challenge you to search through whole Zara website and find a size 10 model. I'm not going to suggest you should look for plus size models because there are none.

The point about overweight models was brought up as there is a double standard where most of the time they're shown in a positive light, whereas it's the opposite for the other extreme. This phenomenon being outside of Zara.

Personally I'm not bothered by the size of models but I think Jennifer O'Connell has a point. Average woman in Ireland is size 14 or 16 and I really don't think it's skinny shaming if someone wonders why body shapes less than 10% of women have are used to model vast majority of clothing (or all in case of Zara).

That's not the issue though, it was her choice of wording used to describe this model's bodyshape as "undesirable" and she felt that it was worth mentioning that this was in the women's section. She could still ask the question on the health of their models without these put downs.

And btw is then any concern about eating disorders in fashion industry which are well documented also skinny shaming? Some countries even ban use of models who are under certain age, bmi or require doctors cert that they are healthy.

Already addressed, so long they're healthy (likewise with models that are overweight) then grand.

coffee_cake

I don't think every single shop needs to cater for the average size. They have a target market, let them at it. There are plenty of other shops too

The J Stands for Jay

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm not going to suggest you should look for plus size models because there are none.

Based on the men's clothes, I'd say the reason for that is they don't sell plus size clothes...

Airyfairy12

meeeeh wrote: »

It might be just me but everything now is skinny or fat shaming. It's not a secret that designers like to use slender teenage girls to sell clothes to women in their 20s, 30s, 40s and older. Our bodies change with age and for whatever reason men's clothes are usually not modelled by 16 year olds. Argument about overweight models is completely redundant in this case and I challenge you to search through whole Zara website and find a size 10 model. I'm not going to suggest you should look for plus size models because there are none.

Personally I'm not bothered by the size of models but I think Jennifer O'Connell has a point. Average woman in Ireland is size 14 or 16 and I really don't think it's skinny shaming if someone wonders why body shapes less than 10% of women have are used to model vast majority of clothing (or all in case of Zara).

And btw is then any concern about eating disorders in fashion industry which are well documented also skinny shaming? Some countries even ban use of models who are under certain age, bmi or require doctors cert that they are healthy. At 40 and size 10, normal bmi I am quite happy with myself but as fashion obsessed 15 year-old I thought I was fat despite being healthy weight. I was on diets at 13. Is it really so offensive to ask that models are more representative of how we look?

Everything isnt skinny or fat shaming, if models look a certain way - Big boobs, small waist and bubble butt (pretty little things website is a great example of this) no negative comments are made. If bigger models are used in advertising, the feedback is mostly positive - theyre often referred to as 'curvy' and 'real women'.
I disagree with Zara in that they dont cater to bigger sizes but that doesnt give anyone a free pass to be an ignorant asshat and pick apart a young girls body and make comments about how boyish or 'undesirable' she is. To even suggest that insinuates that as a woman, her whole purpose is to look desirable and womanly, ie fit in with current beauty standards. - That cant have any positive effect on young girls self esteem, body image or mental health. Would it not be a healthier choice to accept that some people are skinny, some are big, some have small boobs etc and celebrate that rather than pitting women against each other?
So no, its not offensive to ask that models are more representative and I dont know were you picked that up from. What is offensive, is calling a young girl boyish and undesirable and assuming she has an eating disorder because she doesnt have a big chest and a massive arse.

Eating disorders are a complex mental health issue that stem from many sources, often a result of sever low esteem, child abuse victims often suffer from eating disorders. I cant imagine its healthy for someone who is already suffering from a debilitating illness and who already has dangerously low self esteem to come online and read nasty comments directed at how someone looks who may be similar in appearance to themselves.

Anorexia and bulimia suffers dont need to be told they theyre 'undesirable', they already feel that way about themselves. They need adequate mental health care and Jennifer Connolly is not a mental health professional and should keep her unqualified and illinformed opinions to herself.

bee06

It was these kind of comments that used to really make me hate being skinny when I was a teenager. Ironically seeing models like Kate Moss made me feel more “normal”. 20 years later and I’m still bloody skinny and even having a baby and breastfeeding didn’t change that. Thankfully I now see comments like my body type being undesirable for the bull**** it is. But I really feel for the young girls today of all sizes with social media and the obsession with the physical appearance. It never stops.

RacoonQueen

There is a lot of 'skinny shaming' and 'fit shaming' about and it seems to be deemed acceptable (compared to 'fat shaming). Stuff that you couldn't / wouldn't say to or about an overweight or unfit person is apparently ok to say to fitter/skinnier people. I mean I'm fairly laid back so don't get offended but I've had people come over to me to squeeze my arm or poke my stomach to 'feel my muscles' Imagine me going over to an overweight person and squeezing their belly because I wanted to feel their fat. I'd be pulled straight in to HR.

ginandtonicsky

I guess the thing is, slim/skinny/fit people have a certain privilege that fat people do not. Being slim/in shape is hailed as the holy grail by society, and with that you get a certain privilege in terms of how you're treated, thought of, valued and held in regard. Slim = attractive by society's standards, male attention comes your way, other women are envious, respect and visibility are the default.

So in that context, all the insults can almost be construed as backhanded compliments. "She needs to eat a sandwich" or "she's so skinny!" or trying to feel your muscles - they're socially acceptable because you've already won that war, you've got an otherwise easy ride when it comes to how society treats you.

Fat people on the other hand, are always the punch line. Everything from mistreatment to invisibility and constant judgement and disgust are pretty regular experiences for people - especially women - who are quite overweight. Log onto the most popular forum of this website on any given day and you won't have to spend too long to find evidence of that.

That's why fat shaming is becoming less socially acceptable than skinny shaming.

I'm a petite size 6, albeit could do with toning up a little. I get pretty regular comments about my size whenever I put food into my mouth, most often from other women ("look at you eating that and the size of you!"). I also get looked up and down like I'm some kind of nuclear threat, but I also get regularly called for job interviews, get promoted, people pay attention to me in meetings and the world by and large responds to me in a friendly and favourable way.

Fat people experience the exact opposite, both online and in the real world. It doesn't matter how many Dove Real Women campaigns get launched online, it's still a tough world to be in if you're significantly overweight. So I can take the odd snide comment tbh.

Airyfairy12

ginandtonicsky wrote: »

I guess the thing is, slim/skinny/fit people have a certain privilege that fat people do not. Being slim/in shape is hailed as the holy grail by society, and with that you get a certain privilege in terms of how you're treated, thought of, valued and held in regard. Slim = attractive by society's standards, male attention comes your way, other women are envious, respect and visibility are the default.

So in that context, all the insults can almost be construed as backhanded compliments. "She needs to eat a sandwich" or "she's so skinny!" or trying to feel your muscles - they're socially acceptable because you've already won that war, you've got an otherwise easy ride when it comes to how society treats you.

Fat people on the other hand, are always the punch line. Everything from mistreatment to invisibility and constant judgement and disgust are pretty regular experiences for people - especially women - who are quite overweight. Log onto the most popular forum of this website on any given day and you won't have to spend too long to find evidence of that.

That's why fat shaming is becoming less socially acceptable than skinny shaming.

I'm a petite size 6, albeit could do with toning up a little. I get pretty regular comments about my size whenever I put food into my mouth, most often from other women ("look at you eating that and the size of you!"). I also get looked up and down like I'm some kind of nuclear threat, but I also get regularly called for job interviews, get promoted, people pay attention to me in meetings and the world by and large responds to me in a friendly and favourable way.

Fat people experience the exact opposite, both online and in the real world. It doesn't matter how many Dove Real Women campaigns get launched online, it's still a tough world to be in if you're significantly overweight. So I can take the odd snide comment tbh.

Sorry ginandtonic but this is the most ridiculous post ive ever seen on boards. Im a size 6 too and my appearance has never benefited me in terms of getting jobs, promotions, friends or anything else. I cant imagine an employer hiring someone based on their size unless body shape was specific to the role. If thats the case then how come my employment and every employment ive ever had has had a mix of sizes. Why is one of my female managers easily a size 22? My manager from my last job was quite big also and also female. Thats a ridiculous comment to make.

Again ill repeat myself, pitting women against each other is not healthy and its not ok. Ever. Just because some bigger person was called fat, that doesnt give anyone the right to balance it out by shaming random girls because theyre skinny. Telling someone to go eat a sandwich is not a backhanded compliment. What sort of mind set are you in where you think thats somehow acceptable or ok? Id worry about your self esteem and emotional boundaries if thats a type of behavior that you regularly accept and take as a compliment.
'Look at you eating that and the size of you' is not the same as personal insults . Theres a different undertone to that comment than others. Its not the same thing at all.

bee06

ginandtonicsky wrote: »

I also get regularly called for job interviews, get promoted, people pay attention to me in meetings and the world by and large responds to me in a friendly and favourable way.

Do you really think you’re being called for interviews, promoted etc because of your size and not because you’re good at your job?

ginandtonicsky

:pac::pac:

Seem to have ruffled some feathers.

Nope, I'm awesome at my job. But the unconscious biases around size are undeniable. Don't see many size 22 folks at the top of the chain where I work, or in any previous offices I worked in around the world either.

Self-esteem is perfectly intact thanks, or at least no more healthy or unhealthy than the next person's.

meeeeh

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Telling someone to go eat a sandwich is not a backhanded compliment. What sort of mind set are you in where you think thats somehow acceptable or ok? Id worry about your self esteem and emotional boundaries if thats a type of behavior that you regularly accept and take as a compliment.

So you can't tell people to eat a sandwich but you can speculate about someone's self esteem on basis of one post.

There is some research that weight gain doesn't help at your career.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/lisaquast/2011/06/06/can-being-thin-actually-translate-into-a-bigger-paycheck-for-women/amp/

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/aug/30/demoted-dismissed-weight-size-ceiling-work-discrimination

I have no skin in the game, I was never fat or skinny shamed but I don't live somewhere on Mars so I did hear about research of how looks influence career progression on average.

Faith

There’s plenty of research indicating that attractiveness is a big factor in things like being offered jobs. So it follows to reason that, if being slim is considered more attractive than being overweight, then a slim candidate could benefit from an unconscious bias in their favour when compared to an overweight candidate of equal skill and experience.

That’s asssuming all else is equal, of course. Weight won’t get you a job if another person is clearly more suitable for the role, in most cases.