Is Solar PV about to get more expensive?

n97 mini

Grants announced today. Still no FIT though.

https://www.seai.ie/grants/home-grants/solar-pv/

slicedpanman

about 3k more expensive

mordeith

slicedpanman wrote: »

about 3k more expensive

We just received a quote for around €3,500 for a 2kw system. Would it be worth it if we added a battery storage option (now that grant is available). It seemed like a waste of time without the battery and no FIT.

Alkers

mordeith wrote:

We just received a quote for around €3,500 for a 2kw system.

Is that including the grant?

Shefwedfan

mordeith wrote: »

We just received a quote for around €3,500 for a 2kw system. Would it be worth it if we added a battery storage option (now that grant is available). It seemed like a waste of time without the battery and no FIT.

Other option is divertor to the hot water....so not push it back to grid but just heat the water.....

n97 mini

https://shop.electricireland.ie/products/install-detail/solar-pv

The diverter costs €510. We heat our hot water and do all our cooking on mains gas. In the last 2 months the total for both inc VAT was €10.61 (leaving out standing charge as that's not avoidable). So I'm estimating around €6 per bill for hot water (around 2kw/h per day, super insulated tank only needs to be topped up by a few degrees), or €36 a year. Means the diverter has a payback time of around 14 years.

Gumbo

I have a 3kw system with immersion divertor, constantly generate more than I need and dump to the grid every day.
Im hoping to get a battery soon as it could mean I would be off grid for a great deal of the year.

n97 mini

kceire wrote: »

I have a 3kw system with immersion divertor, constantly generate more than I need and dump to the grid every day.
Im hoping to get a battery soon as it could mean I would be off grid for a great deal of the year.

I read somewhere if you're off grid they add €9.65 to your bill to make up for the electricity you're not using!

unkel

mordeith wrote: »

We just received a quote for around €3,500 for a 2kw system. Would it be worth it if we added a battery storage option (now that grant is available). It seemed like a waste of time without the battery and no FIT.

It is a waste of time financially without the battery and no FIT. But it will help the environment.

Batteries are very expensive still. But EUR1,000 subsidy is nice. I'll look into that option myself.

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

It is a waste of time financially without the battery and no FIT. But it will help the environment.

Batteries are very expensive still. But EUR1,000 subsidy is nice. I'll look into that option myself.

I wouldn't say waste of time. Based on my current analysis most days I am under the 2kW.


I would say it is worth doing some analysis of your requirement before just buying PV...battery would be lovely but high cost

unkel

kceire wrote: »

I have a 3kw system with immersion divertor, constantly generate more than I need and dump to the grid every day.
Im hoping to get a battery soon as it could mean I would be off grid for a great deal of the year.

Immersion diverter is a very inefficient way of heating water and the pay back for someone installing it is long. For a small PV system, it might actually cost more than letting the overproduction go to the grid for free :eek:

That said, if you were going to install a large PV system anyway in a house where you were going to be living for a very long time (with the idea / hope to add batteries in the future or get FIT or charge your car) like yourself then of course it makes sense. Or if you don't have oil / gas heating. Which will become more common in future.

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I wouldn't say waste of time. Based on my current analysis most days I am under the 2kW.

Not sure what your point is? The base load of a house is a few hundred watts max. If the sun is shining and you don't have a washing machine / dishwasher etc. running at the same time (which 95% of the time you don't), then the overproduction will go to the grid for free

I'm not saying this is stupid, I'm doing it myself. But mostly as a hobby / for environmental reasons. Not financial reasons. I am hoping to install more solar PV in future, add a battery and try and charge my car with solar

ElKavo

unkel wrote: »

Not sure what your point is? The base load of a house is a few hundred watts max. If the sun is shining and you don't have a washing machine / dishwasher etc. running at the same time (which 95% of the time you don't), then the overproduction will go to the grid for free

I'm not saying this is stupid, I'm doing it myself. But mostly as a hobby / for environmental reasons. Not financial reasons. I am hoping to install more solar PV in future, add a battery and try and charge my car with solar

So if a household is producing more electricity than it is using the extra is exported to the national grid, which you don't get paid for. But if same house, for whatever reason draws electricity from the grid, to the same amount that it exported you will be charged? Well that just sums up the governments approach to renewable energy right there. Surely there should be legislation to say that what you export you should be able to get back for free or with a minimum "holding" charge I.E. 5% etc

We'll take your free energy but charge you to have the same energy back! Seems like bonkers way to do it really.

unkel

Yep that's exactly it

In countries like the Netherlands, you get net metering, which basically means that your meter runs back when you produce more solar electricity than you are using. Or in other words, you get the full day rate for every single kWh you produce. Plus a subsidy on the install and VAT back. You'll know what I mean when you drive around there. Many houses are plastered with PV. Payback time about 3-5 years. In Ireland payback with this subsidy is probably about 15-20 years at least (with a battery system)

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Not sure what your point is? The base load of a house is a few hundred watts max. If the sun is shining and you don't have a washing machine / dishwasher etc. running at the same time (which 95% of the time you don't), then the overproduction will go to the grid for free

I'm not saying this is stupid, I'm doing it myself. But mostly as a hobby / for environmental reasons. Not financial reasons. I am hoping to install more solar PV in future, add a battery and try and charge my car with solar

My base load seems to be circa 0.3-0.4kW during the day. This is because everything is timed to run at night.



Once at night it flies up. If I could take excess during the day and use for washing machines etc then I would save. Also small top up's of car during the day. So more or less on a sunny day use up all the Solar PV if possible.

If not put it into hot water.

To make some better sense, all day it sits at 0.5 lets say. Maybe 1-2 peaks if showers. Then at 12 at night I am over 5kW for about 4 hours. This is car/dish washer/washing machine etc all kicking in. Then from 5-8/9 it is running at about 3KW as hot water is on plus people start getting up for showers etc....

I could space this all out during the day and save money.....plus get rid of the 0.5kW load. Battery of course would be lovely

Water John

Don't think I would do it without the batteries. Might as well maximise the return once one is doing it at all, even if the ROI is longer.
And secondly, wouldn't give it away for free. That is really taking the p**s.

Am I right that their is a total of 15 installers in the country on the list? I have the total of 1 for Cork county.

ElKavo

unkel wrote: »

Yep that's exactly it

In countries like the Netherlands, you get net metering, which basically means that your meter runs back when you produce more solar electricity than you are using. Or in other words, you get the full day rate for every single kWh you produce. Plus a subsidy on the install and VAT back. You'll know what I mean when you drive around there. Many houses are plastered with PV. Payback time about 3-5 years. In Ireland payback with this subsidy is probably about 15-20 years at least (with a battery system)

No real surprise that the uptake is so slow in Ireland.

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If I could take excess during the day and use for washing machines etc then I would save. Also small top up's of car during the day. So more or less on a sunny day use up all the Solar PV if possible.

Yep, turn on an appliance when it is bright enough(doesn't necessarily have to be sunny, PV still works (a bit) even if it is raining) anytime from 11AM to 3PM and it will run on the sun. Run them all consecutively though. You will lose most of your production to the grid though

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If not put it into hot water.

Not a great idea on a 2kW system. The savings are so small it's probably cheaper to let it go to the grid for free (once these savings are offset against the cost of buying a diverter). If you already have a smart EV charger like a Zappi, you could charge your car with the excess though...

Sleeper12

No grants if you install yourself as far as I can get. Even the battery needs to be certified by approved installer.

Sort of takes the good out of it

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Yep, turn on an appliance when it is bright enough(doesn't necessarily have to be sunny, PV still works (a bit) even if it is raining) anytime from 11AM to 3PM and it will run on the sun. Run them all consecutively though. You will lose most of your production to the grid though



Not a great idea on a 2kW system. The savings are so small it's probably cheaper to let it go to the grid for free (once these savings are offset against the cost of buying a diverter). If you already have a smart EV charger like a Zappi, you could charge your car with the excess though...

Normally from 4-6 I have the immersion on to heat water for kids.....


would the excess not get rid of this requirement?


As part of install I would look at Zappi but a lot of time car might not be at home.

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Normally from 4-6 I have the immersion on to heat water for kids.....


would the excess not get rid of this requirement?

It would on a good day. But you could also have the immersion on timer running early in the morning at half price night rate. Any recent decent hot water cylinder loses very little heat. I think mine loses just 1C per 24h. Cheaper again is heating your water with gas, even in summer.

mordeith

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Other option is divertor to the hot water....so not push it back to grid but just heat the water.....

Quote us without grant and no battery. Thing about the hot water diverting is we already have solar panels for water heating. Works from around April to early October. How much do the batteries store does anyone now or is that an open ended question?

Gumbo

mordeith wrote: »

Quote us without grant and no battery. Thing about the hot water diverting is we already have solar panels for water heating. Works from around April to early October. How much do the batteries store does anyone now or is that an open ended question?

Open ended question, it depends on what size battery you buy.
Batteries range from 1kwh to 10kwh and possible more.

For example, today, relatively dull day, I generated 6.4kwh of power. I noticed that 3.5kwh went to my immersion trickle feed over the day so I now have got water for our 2 showers and then the 2 kids baths.

But there’s 3.something kWh that got dumped to the grid fro free. A small amount would have powered the house base load but the balance I could have stored and used this evening.
I think a 5kwh battery would be a good size.

Even right now, my panels are generating 500w of power!

slicedpanman

What size is your system kceire? And whats the orientation?

slicedpanman

Duplicate

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

It would on a good day. But you could also have the immersion on timer running early in the morning at half price night rate. Any recent decent hot water cylinder loses very little heat. I think mine loses just 1C per 24h. Cheaper again is heating your water with gas, even in summer.

Brand new hot water cylinder and it runs for a few hours each night to heat up tank.....


Heating is oil, I dont use to heat water

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Brand new hot water cylinder and it runs for a few hours each night to heat up tank.....


Heating is oil, I dont use to heat water

I'm not familiar with oil boilers but heating up DHW in summer with gas is cheaper than doing it on night rate electricity. I'd say the same applies to oil.

jaredGalen

I got very excited when I saw the headlines, but frankly I find the whole lot a bit of a mystery :-(

My usage is high, daily usage for July shown in the image.
Agricultural setting so have been wondering about this for a while.
chart (1).png

With high usage, this grant has me more seriously considering solav PV & battery now.... :rolleyes:

Gumbo

slicedpanman wrote: »

What size is your system kceire? And whats the orientation?

3kw
South Facing

Shefwedfan

jaredGalen wrote: »

I got very excited when I saw the headlines, but frankly I find the whole lot a bit of a mystery :-(

My usage is high, daily usage for July shown in the image.
Agricultural setting so have been wondering about this for a while.
chart (1).png

With high usage, this grant has me more seriously considering solav PV & battery now.... :rolleyes:

I have similar but what I am looking at now is what are the peaks during the day. Why are they so high and can they be moved.



If you look at total daily then you need 6kW system and that is what I was priced


But if I look over what I use during the day. Majority would be covered with 2kW but in reality I need a 3kW system to really take a hit on the amount I am using.....battery on top would be perfect

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

But if I look over what I use during the day. Majority would be covered with 2kW but in reality I need a 3kW system to really take a hit on the amount I am using.....battery on top would be perfect

Your highs are when you are using your 10kW electric showers. You will never be able to run those off EV unless you have substantial batteries. Get rid of them

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Your highs are when you are using your 10kW electric showers. You will never be able to run those off EV unless you have substantial batteries. Get rid of them

Long term and yes I know they are a small issue


What I need to test is how many kW the power shower off the hot water uses

No FIT and grid tied means the ESb will love you and give you nothing.

Without battery or fit solar PV is useless.

Battery is expensive.

7.5C/Kwh night rate or 14 C Kwh day ? come on, forget PCV, I doubt I'll consider it until there's a FIT, the Government are desperate to reduce emissions to be seen to be the green Government but they'd be better to put this money towards EV chargers or offer a FIT but that can't happen because there's too much wind on the grid at peat production !

Sleeper12

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Long term and yes I know they are a small issue


What I need to test is how many kW the power shower off the hot water uses

Power showers don't have a KW rating. At least not published on the box. They have no element so only use a tiny amount of electricity. They run off a 3 amp fuse where an electric shower runs off a 40amp fuse. I you were using electricity to run both the electric shower works out cheaper to run as you only heat the exact amount of water required & you use a lot less water.& is A rated.


If you have free hot water then the power shower is very cheap to run. The Aqualisa Aquastream & Hydramax are low voltage showers so cheaper again to run

unkel

A 2 bar waterpump (that can give you 2 simultaneous showers) uses about 300W. Versus 1 electric shower that uses about 10kW. That's 33 times as much!!!

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

A 2 bar waterpump (that can give you 2 simultaneous showers) uses about 300W. Versus 1 electric shower that uses about 10kW. That's 33 times as much!!!

I have a triton as2000xt installed in one bathroom. It is better than the 2 x T90 I have installed.

JohnnyJohnJohns

Our house was built in 2016 so it's a non-runner. It's a real pity as the house is fairly energy efficient and PV's would be a nice addition.


Why are home batteries so expensive? Hyundai can put a 70kWh (Estimated) battery in a Kona that can be fast charged and discharged at a much higher rate than I would assume a house needs. A powerwall is €6,600 for 13.5 kWh making it almost the same cost as the Hyundai for equidistant kWh.


Do people use reclaimed leaf 24kWh batteries for home set ups?

n97 mini

[Deleted User] wrote: »

the Government are desperate to reduce emissions to be seen to be the green

There was an article in the Sunday Business Post recently saying Ireland will be fined in 2020 for not meeting our renewable energy commitments (16% by 2020, we're only at 13% currently). So it's not just about being seen. Lack of FIT doesn't encourage microgeneration and will ultimately cost us hundreds of millions.

I'd like to know what tail is wagging the dog, blocking FIT. Is it the Catholic church, the Vintners, the unions, IFA... Who?

Shefwedfan

n97 mini wrote: »

There was an article in the Sunday Business Post recently saying Ireland will be fined in 2020 for not meeting our renewable energy commitments (16% by 2020, we're only at 13% currently). So it's not just about being seen. Lack of FIT doesn't encourage microgeneration and will ultimately cost us hundreds of millions.

I'd like to know what tail is wagging the dog, blocking FIT. Is it the Catholic church, the Vintners, the unions, IFA... Who?

ESB Networks

Calahonda52

Sleeper12 wrote: »

No grants if you install yourself as far as I can get. Even the battery needs to be certified by approved installer.

Sort of takes ALL the good out of it

fearrchair

Maybe this is a silly question but could you run a Nibe 1220 etc heat pump of solar panels. Probably not if it's on all the time. May need a lot of power.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

A 2 bar waterpump (that can give you 2 simultaneous showers) uses about 300W. Versus 1 electric shower that uses about 10kW. That's 33 times as much!!!

Yes but you have to offset those figures with the cost of heating the water
The 10kW includes heating water quickly.


If you have solar PV fitted then the heating of the water will use some/all of the generated kW for a portion of the day, meaning that if you use an average of 0.5kW across a 24 hour period for constant "free" hot water, that's 12kWh. Which is 2kWh more than running a 10kW shower for 1 hour. Which no one would do.


What is the opportunity cost of that 0.5kW. Can it be used elsewhere. Have the installation costs of the PV been recouped already.

I take your point that electric showers are very high peak usage but using the "free" hot water from PV may or may not be the answer. If you have a 4kW PV and a 20kWh battery then perhaps it doesn't make sense as you could use some of the 20kWh to run a 10kW shower for 15 minutes.


If however you have the standard 2kW PV and you are currently giving the energy for free to ESBn, then of course it makes sense to use"free" hot watyer

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

running a 10kW shower for 1 hour. Which no one would do.

We would. And then some

ELM327 wrote: »

If however you have the standard 2kW PV and you are currently giving the energy for free to ESBn, then of course it makes sense to use"free" hot watyer

As in using a diverter? Not that straight forward. Particularly if you have a smallish PV setup. It could be cheaper to give our access to the grid for free (payback time of the diverter could be longer than its life expectancy). If you have a big PV array and you use lots of hot water, then it is starting to make sense.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

Which is 2kWh more than running a 10kW shower for 1 hour. Which no one would do.

3 adults and 3 children in our house. Some days the kids will have a shower as well and I would say the shower would be close to running for a hour over the day:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

It is madness alright

unkel

One electric shower for one hour a day uses more electricity than the total electricity consumption of an average Irish household

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

One electric shower for one hour a day uses more electricity than the total electricity consumption of an average Irish household

Oh I know....I look at the Owl reports last night....I wont tell you the peaks we hit some days :eek::eek:

Sleeper12

unkel wrote: »

One electric shower for one hour a day uses more electricity than the total electricity consumption of an average Irish household

It does but if comparing it to showering with water heated by an electric immersion it's much cheaper per minute of showering. An electric shower uses 3 to 4.5 liters if water per minute a power shower uses 10 to over 20 litres per minute . An hours showering with water heated by an immersion n even the poorest power shower at 10 litres per minute costs more that twice to 3 times as much as the electric shower.


If you are getting free hot water from solar or pv then obviously thats cheaper.

unkel

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It does but if comparing it to showering with water heated by an electric immersion it's much cheaper per minute of showering.

That might well be the case, but who on earth uses electric immersion to heat their water if you can do it for a fraction of the cost with gas / oil? :eek:

Sleeper12

unkel wrote: »

That might well be the case, but who on earth uses electric immersion to heat their water if you can do it for a fraction of the cost with gas / oil? :eek:

For a half tank of hot water Electric immersion is cheaper than gas as it's 100% percent efficient. Think of all the water on the pipes between the gas boiler & the hot water cylinder you have to heat up as well as the coil itself For a full tank gas is cheaper than electric.



A combi boiler is cheaper than electric all the time as it only heats instant water as needed.


For 5 minute showers an electric shower is cheaper than gas (except a combi) or electric immersion.



Electric showers are a poor compromise imo but at times can work out much cheaper than the immersion or gas.

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

That might well be the case, but who on earth uses electric immersion to heat their water if you can do it for a fraction of the cost with gas / oil? :eek:

Moi :P:P:P:P


Always have.....


I do have it on a timer now to reduce the time it is on.....before that is ran 24 x 7

Sleeper12

Here's some calculations from a different thread HERE

John.G wrote: »

The sink element of a dual immersion will heat say 40 litres of water to 40C in that 30 mins and consume about 1.3 Kwh (of electricity) at 100% efficiency but a gas boiler (depending on cylinder & coil size) would only take around 18 mins and consume around 1.9 Kwh (of gas) at a boiler&system efficiency of 70%, so gas is apparently cheaper, I think I calculated a few years ago that the boiler&system efficiency would have to be as low as 40% to equal full cost electric but see below.
Of course a gas boiler can't heat "only" 40 litres and will normally heat say 150 litres so this would take ~ 7.0 Kwh of gas but if your daily hot water consumption is only 40 litres then theoretically there is 3 to 4 days of hot water available but cylinder losses will take another ~ 1.5Kwh/day so the "real" gas boiler consumption per 40 litres will be 4.0 Kwh/day,
Cost: assuming electric @ €0.18/Kwh, electric heating cost, (0.18*1.3), €0.23/day and assuming gas @ €0.07/Kwh, gas heating cost, (0.07*4), €0.28/day.

So ONLY if one is using ~ 40 litres of hot water/day then electric heating is a good and cheaper? option.