Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker **Spoilers from post 2076**

cursai

I find it remarkable that people are still defending TLJ. Although the defence is mostly waffle with a sprinkle of nostalgic deathgripping.
It doesn't bode well for the next film if paying punters standards are this low.

Tony EH

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

One of the major, consistent focuses of TLJ was to drag the Resistance fighters down to their lowest ebb, but to also leave them in a place of hope that they can fight back and inspire others. The last images of the film show this in no uncertain terms, and it’s something repeatedly referenced in the dialogue as well. Of the narrative and practical challenges facing Abrams, I’d suggest it’s among the easiest to deal with... it naturally and logically flows from the end of the last film. If it seems the heroes are facing overwhelming odds... well, that’s not exactly new territory for either SW or basic storytelling in general

No. But, in this case is utterly ridiculous. There's 12 people left vs the thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of the New Order. At the very least, there needs to be years and years of rebuilding, all the while Kylo Ren and his lot get stronger.

As I said, writing something convincing for a good guys win there isn't going to be easy.

Perhaps the New Republic conveniently see the error of their ways in between VIII and IX and call up Leia to apologise? Maybe the people in the pic I posted on the last page are the remainders of Luke's Jedi school and they're all shit hot like Rey -> instant win.

All of this is shooting the breeze, of course. But, frankly, it's about the only interest I have in IX now.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

As an adamant defender of TLJ, my view is that it all *has* come together in ways that I found immensely rewarding and satisfying, and in ways TFA did not lead me to expect.

Well, I spose all I can say there is good for you.

Sad Professor

pixelburp wrote: »

JJ Abrams wrote into the Episode VII script a sh*t tonne of mystery boxes and trailing plot strings; Knights of Ren, Rey's lineage, Luke's lightsabre, on and on. No writer could have been reasonably expected to take all those winks & nods and spin gold. I know Rian Johnson is now some kind of cinematic antichrist, but he was given a huge amount of question marks to deal with. We may not have liked the answers he came up with - but they are still answers to a needless number of mysteries.

And this is scarcely the first time JJ Abrams could be accused of this behaviour in his storytelling, so it's not shifting anything really.

What Johnson could have done is simply left all the mystery boxes unopened, maybe even adding some of his own, and leaving the reveals until the third film with predictably unsatisfying results given that JJ never had an answer for these things. This is what distinguishes mystery boxes from puzzle boxes. Puzzle boxes (e.g. Westworld) are meant to be solved, usually sooner rather than later and in a dramatic fashion. Mystery boxes (e.g. Lost) aren't meant to be solved. In fact, the whole idea of the mystery box is to prolong the mystery as long as possible and hope that the audience is so engaged by the story that they forget about the mystery or don't care that the answer is unsatisfying.

Johnson just treated the mystery boxes for what they really were: unresolved plot threads that weren't worth prolonging. He was also a good enough writer to be able to plot his film without making more of them. He spoke to JJ and Kasdan, had looked behind the curtain, and knew there was nothing more to characters like Snoke than what you saw on-screen. He wasn't interested in expanding the mystery or making big reveals out of stuff that wasn't important to the story. In this sense Johnson did kinda break JJ's mystery boxes, but for the better of the trilogy as a whole even if it meant upsetting a bunch of online theorists who were more interested in TFA's mystery boxes than they were in its story.

nix

What Disney should have done, was have someone write the story for the entire trilogy, instead of just having people jumping in and making it up as they go along, its a ****ing mess.

I'm baffled as to why they would even do it this way, its like the most expensive game of "Once upon a time", why would they do it this way?

SimonTemplar

I still think the worst decision of this trilogy what not locking in the same writer/director for the three movies. One of the problems I have with TLJ is that it just doesn't feel like a continuation of TFA.

TLJ could have been a fantastic stand alone film, but ultimately, it needs to fit within a trilogy.

And I'm sure if they knew back when this trilogy was being planned that JJ would direct both the first and last films, he'd definitely end up at least writing the second one too.

Sad Professor

nix wrote: »

What Disney should have done, was have someone write the story for the entire trilogy, instead of just having people jumping in and making it up as they go along, its a ****ing mess.

I'm baffled as to why they would even do it this way, its like the most expensive game of "Once upon a time", why would they do it this way?

They did. Arndt was hired for exactly that purpose. It didn't work out. JJ and Kasdan had to start almost from scratch. They barely came up with a story for one film and were still re-writing and reshooting as they went. Disney weren't going to delay for several years while they planned the rest of the trilogy.

Check out Chris McQuarrie's interview on the Empire podcast where he talks about making up the story to Fallout as he went along. He addresses this question of "well, why didn't you start with a finished script". He says that's just not how Hollywood works, that blockbuster filmmaking is total chaos.

Defunkd

homerun_homer wrote: »

If JJ can finish this trilogy well then it will put paid to all the grief he gets for setting stories up and then abandoning them.

He's jew a significant bonus from directing this one, as per TFA, which netted him an extra $24 or $40 million. You can be sure he'll put in effort. Who wouldn't?

J Mysterio

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

Ultimately - for me - the most disturbing aspect of the new trilogies has been their lack of direction. This 'making it up as they went along' business is very annoying and has resulted in this, well, mess.

For the life of me I can't understand why they didn't plot the three films, or actually just write the three films, before filming.

Why did they initially want three different directors? What is the benefit of that? I can only see negatives insofar as they will have different ideas, goals, style, technique and this will result in a different feel, tone, result.

I would have liked to have seen Lucas vision borne out. It would have been best if himself and kasdan could have been out together to work on the plot and then had that be reviewed and worked on with whatever director. This was always supposed to be the story of the Skywalker family in three trilogies, covering three generations. That has been totally obscured.

I'm still annoyed about what they did with Luke. What a fuçking waste. I was looking forward to some cool Jedi ****, from the master Jedi(!) and what do I get? 'The Jedi are wrong'. FFS. The Jedi was always what was coolest about Star Wars - lightsaber, robes, mind tricks, force push(ing), wisdom.

Disaster.

SimonTemplar

The fact that they can't even plan a trilogy correctly shows what an even greater feat the MCU has been. Say what you want about it, at least they have been consistent with their world building and Infinity Wars feels like a natural conclusion to the last 10 years of story telling.

In contrast, TLJ often does not feel like a sequel to TFA but instead one of those "A Star Wars Story" movies.

Sal Butamol

I can't believe how badly they fcuked the whole story up. It's unforgivable.

Kennedy should be fired immediately. Johnson should have his trilogy cancelled.

Hidalgo fired

It's a cluster****.

Wedwood

At this stage, I hope they wrap the saga by referencing all the good aspects of the previous 8 movies:

Pod racers, Maul, Dooko, 'good' Luke, Han, Leia, Obi Wan, Vader, Palpatine, Falcon, X-Wing, Tie Fighter, Rey (being a somebody), Kylo Ren, Chewie, C3PO, R2D2, Yoda, Lando, Stormtroopers, Hutts, Williams.

It's Star Wars, so finish with an epic fight in space and a final lightsaber battle. Let the good guys win and close the saga with a final blue text saying ' .... and they lived happily ever after'

Defunkd

J Mysterio wrote: »

I would have liked to have seen Lucas vision borne out. It would have been best if himself and kasdan could have been out together to work on the plot and then had that be reviewed and worked on with whatever director.


Disaster.

George Lucas has a very different vision of where he wanted SW's to go, so to a degree, i'm happy he isn't involved. George intended on Jar Jar being a central figure in the 2nd film of the new trilogy until feedback and fan disgust changed his mind. The guy that voiced the gungan has a draft script sent by Lucas and he said the film was meant to go in a different direction completely with Jar Jar featuring prominently. And not as a Sith lord...<shudder>

branie2

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

Wedwood wrote: »

At this stage, I hope they wrap the saga by referencing all the good aspects of the previous 8 movies:

Pod racers, Maul, Dooko, 'good' Luke, Han, Leia, Obi Wan, Vader, Palpatine, Falcon, X-Wing, Tie Fighter, Rey (being a somebody), Kylo Ren, Chewie, C3PO, R2D2, Yoda, Lando, Stormtroopers, Hutts, Williams.

It's Star Wars, so finish with an epic fight in space and a final lightsaber battle. Let the good guys win and close the saga with a final blue text saying ' .... and they lived happily ever after'

An episode of the Muppet Babies had an episode where the gang made their own version of Star Wars, and Baby Kermit said at the end of the film, "And they all lived happily ever after

Mark Hamill

J Mysterio wrote: »

I'm still annoyed about what they did with Luke. What a fuçking waste. I was looking forward to some cool Jedi ****, from the master Jedi(!) and what do I get? 'The Jedi are wrong'. FFS. The Jedi was always what was coolest about Star Wars - lightsaber, robes, mind tricks, force push(ing), wisdom.

Disaster.

The Force was the coolest thing about Star Wars, the Jedi were the worst thing about it (at least since the prequel trilogy).

They were a weird cult who took children and brainwashed all personality and humanity out of them, and when they messed up (as such brainwashing is wont to do) they messed up bad (see Anakin turning to the Dark Side). I've longed for a Star Wars character to point out how moronic they are and that a system which teaches people just to be good people and rejects the stupidly simple dichotomy of Light side vs Dark Side would much better. You can name any "dark side" power and a benevolent use could no doubt be described for it, and vice versa.

There's some of this in the extended universe stuff, like Jolee Bindo in the Knights of the Old Republic game, but the movies overall seem to be actively avoiding it, even when some characters touch on it e.g. Luke and Yoda burn the Jedi texts because they aren't important but Rey saves them so they are again? (I wonder was the shot at the end showing the Jedi texts on the Millenium Falcon added in after rest of the movie was finished?)

Mark Hamill

Tony EH wrote: »

There's 12 people left vs the thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of the New Order.

There are more than 12 rebels (there was mention of them not being able to contact their allies at the start, so they still exist in unknown numbers) and there is not necessarily 1000s or more of the New Order left (it lost Star Killer Base in EP7 and a bunch of its Fleet in EP8 so much of its forces are gone) and what is left is now under a new erratic leader in Kylo Ren who wants to end the New Order as much as he wants to defeat the Resistance.

nix

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The Force was the coolest thing about Star Wars, the Jedi were the worst thing about it (at least since the prequel trilogy).

They were a weird cult who took children and brainwashed all personality and humanity out of them, and when they messed up (as such brainwashing is wont to do) they messed up bad (see Anakin turning to the Dark Side). I've longed for a Star Wars character to point out how moronic they are and that a system which teaches people just to be good people and rejects the stupidly simple dichotomy of Light side vs Dark Side would much better. You can name any "dark side" power and a benevolent use could no doubt be described for it, and vice versa.

There's some of this in the extended universe stuff, like Jolee Bindo in the Knights of the Old Republic game, but the movies overall seem to be actively avoiding it, even when some characters touch on it e.g. Luke and Yoda burn the Jedi texts because they aren't important but Rey saves them so they are again? (I wonder was the shot at the end showing the Jedi texts on the Millenium Falcon added in after rest of the movie was finished?)

The whole point to training them when they were young was so they wouldnt turn into the likes of Vader, training from a young age was to help them control their emotions so they dont have hissy fits and murder kids and take over the universe :rolleyes:

To let people run loose with those kind of powers is a recipe for disaster, the Jedi were to help and keep the peace. Hardly call it evil brainwashing :rolleyes:

Sal Butamol

Only way to resolve this is for a super massive black hole to tear the galaxy apart and destroy everything

J Mysterio

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The Force was the coolest thing about Star Wars, the Jedi were the worst thing about it (at least since the prequel trilogy).

These seem to me to be mutually exclusive views. The Jedi are the Force (as are the Sith). If there are no Jedi/ Sith to use the Force, there may as well be no Force.

Also, you don't like the Jedi but your name is Mark Hamill?

Mark Hamill

nix wrote: »

The whole point to training them when they were young was so they wouldnt turn into the likes of Vader, training from a young age was to help them control their emotions so they dont have hissy fits and murder kids and take over the universe :rolleyes:

To let people run loose with those kind of powers is a recipe for disaster, the Jedi were to help and keep the peace. Hardly call it evil brainwashing :rolleyes:

If Anakin was taught to control his emotions instead of completely repressing them then he wouldn't have had his hissy fit and turned into Vader. They are exactly like a cult, like on of those pray-the-gay-away camps.

And don't forget EP1, when they tried to use the excuse that at age 8-10 Anakin was too old to be trained to control his emotions in the way they wanted. They seemed perfectly happy to let him leave and run loose, learning who knows what by himself, despite how powerful he had the potential to be.

Mark Hamill

J Mysterio wrote: »

These seem to me to be mutually exclusive views. The Jedi are the Force (as are the Sith). If there are no Jedi/ Sith to use the Force, there may as well be no Force.

Also, you don't like the Jedi but your name is Mark Hamill?

The Jedi and Sith are just Force users, but they are not the Force itself, the Force comes from all life:

J Mysterio

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The Jedi and Sith are just Force users, but they are not the Force itself, the Force comes from all life:

Yes but untill Rey suddenly fell into being a Force user, it was only ever Jedi and Sith who used the Force, being trained to do so.

nix

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If Anakin was taught to control his emotions instead of completely repressing them then he wouldn't have had his hissy fit and turned into Vader. They are exactly like a cult, like on of those pray-the-gay-away camps.

And don't forget EP1, when they tried to use the excuse that at age 8-10 Anakin was too old to be trained to control his emotions in the way they wanted. They seemed perfectly happy to let him leave and run loose, learning who knows what by himself, despite how powerful he had the potential to be.

They are constantly telling him throughout the movies to do just that, there is also years of off screen training he received between Ep1 and 2. He also didnt become unhinged until his mother died and he slaughtered the tusco's. Which he kept to himself, not a fault of the jedi :pac:

Mark Hamill

J Mysterio wrote: »

Yes but untill Rey suddenly fell into being a Force user, it was only ever Jedi and Sith who used the Force, being trained to do so.

There were others who were Force sensitive and/or Force resistant, the Sith and Jedi just had codified systems of training.

nix wrote: »

They are constantly telling him throughout the movies to do just that, there is also years of off screen training he received between Ep1 and 2. He also didnt become unhinged until his mother died and he slaughtered the tusco's. Which he kept to himself, not a fault of the jedi :pac:

As I said in the next part of my sentence that you just ignored, he wasn't taught to control his emotions, he was taught to repress them entirely.

nix

Mark Hamill wrote: »

As I said in the next part of my sentence that you just ignored, he wasn't taught to control his emotions, he was taught to repress them entirely.

How do you know that? pretty much all his training is done between movies, all we see are outbursts in the field, and Obi telling him to control his emotions, to not let them get the better of him, at no point are we left with the notion that he is being brain washed or conditioned

Controlling your anger/emotions is something we see in a lot of movies, especially when its like a master training the novice. It's not brain washing, its sound advice :pac:

homerun_homer

Total flop and a financial loss for Disney

Sal Butamol wrote: »

Only way to resolve this is for a super massive black hole to tear the galaxy apart and destroy everything

Isn't this what Rian wants to do with his trilogy? :pac:

Mark Hamill

nix wrote: »

How do you know that?

By his actions and reactions. People who control their emotions still do get angry, they just don't act impulsively on it. People who repress their emotions try not to feel anything at all, at least until thy inevitably explode, which is exactly what happens in the movies.

nix wrote: »

pretty much all his training is done between movies, all we see are outbursts in the field, and Obi telling him to control his emotions, to not let them get the better of him, at no point are we left with the notion that he is being brain washed or conditioned

Controlling your anger/emotions is something we see in a lot of movies, especially when its like a master training the novice. It's not brain washing, its sound advice

And yet the Jedi council don't believe such simple sound advice would work on someone who already 9 years old? And even after 13 years of 1 on 1 training with Obi Wan Kenobi he still hasn't learned what, according to your argument, amounts to "think before you act"?

Forget about the Force and the Jedi for a minute, would you not find it weird if a Martial Art wouldn't take on a child of 9 because they thought the child was too old to learn their philosophy?

Sal Butamol

The golden rule with religions is "Get them while they're young"

Sad Professor

Oscar Isaac Says Star Wars: Episode IX Is 'Looser' and More Improvisational Than Past Films

This is a nice way of saying JJ started shooting without a finished script again.

pixelburp

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the finale will involve a giant super-weapon threatening the galaxy. This time even bigger again! TFA already winked at the audience with Han's "another death star? lol", but who says you can't do the same joke two times over?

Goodshape

Disappointing box office take less than a billion

Nothing like a bit of loose improvisation to wrap up a "nine part saga"