The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V3

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492573#Comment_120492573

Players and teams don't negotiate long term, 5 year, heavily guaranteed contracts based on someones performance in the distant past. Based on the last two years (Hurts' only two years as an NFL starter) hes played 25% more games than Jackson due to being injured less, Hurts has had a higher overall QB rating in each season, and hes won more games at the important end of the season (regular season and playoff). Hes also gotten better every year hes been in the NFL, unlike Jackson whos been getting worse every year since his MVP season back in 2019 as teams adjust to his limitations.

Hurts is also younger, has no ego problems, and apparently has a competent management team around him. None of which applies to Jackson.

Jackson is just a far riskier bet all-round.

Which is why Jackson holding out to get a significantly bigger contract than Hurts is beyond stupid, hes just not going to get it. As the apparent complete lack of interest in offering him one around the league shows.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120493002#Comment_120493002

You're ignoring Hurts' support system has gotten better year on on year while Lamar's has gotten worse. Eagles actually invested to support him while the Ravens absolutely wasted his rookie contract.

Last year would you have taken the Ravens' WR or OC or OL over that of the Eagles?

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492573#Comment_120492573

Hurts was a serious consideration for MVP before his injury.

The Eagles lost the two games he missed in the 2022 regular season.

Finally comparing their first two years is pointless. We can't just compare years 2 and 3 for both. You have to take in all years and Lamar has a worse injury record than Jalen. Even the injuries should be looked at. Jalen missed games with a high ankle sprain and separated shoulder.

Lamar missed time twice with a knee sprain, once with a high ankle sprain, once with lower back injury and once with concussion.

Concussion, lower back and knee are far more concerning issues.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120493164#Comment_120493164

I would have taken Hurts with the Ravens WR, OC and OL over Jackson with the Ravens WR, OC and OL, if both were the same price. And more importantly when planning for the future I would also definitely take Hurts as a safer bet for the equivalent money than Jackson.

Can you honestly say if you were a GM you'd be happy paying 10-20% more for Jackson than Hurts in the year 2023 on a long term, multi-year, heavily guaranteed, contract? Because thats what Jackson is holding out for it seems.

If so you're of a wildly different view to any qualified analysis I've seen anywhere.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494615#Comment_120494615

I think the issue is that Hurts costs more if you have the Ravens WR, OC and OL. So yes I would take Hurts over Lamar at the moment however that is not a choice the Ravens have. Though I think Jackson wants the "Total" guarantees to guarantees on the previous deal so you are paying them the same (I would still take Hurts at that point but not an option for the Ravens).

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494615#Comment_120494615

You might currently take Hurts over Lamar but I don't believe you 'would have taken' Hurts at the same cost as Lamar this time last year - when consensus was that 2022 was make or break for Hurts and that the Eagles had traded for a 1st in 2023 so they'd have ammo to get a QB, if necessary.

Eagles look like they are getting a potential decent deal here, despite making Hurts the highest paying QB in history, because they are paying Hurts after one year of very good production while surrounded by better WRs, OC, and OL than Lamar has ever had. Ravens had their chance to do a similar deal and get this sorted years ago and they completely fumbled it.

You've no idea what Lamar is holding out for, at best you're shilling team talking points. It also isn't about a GM being 'happy', it is about a GM either doing what he has to do to keep his QB long term or moving on from him.

Blut2

Trying to move the goal posts to what hypothetical debate might have occurred in April 2022 is beyond irrelevant. The question is whats happening right now, in April 2023.

We know what the Ravens have offered Jackson, and we know he turned it down. So we have a rather well educated guess that hes holding out for more than that.

You didn't answer my question. Can you honestly say if you were a GM you'd be happy paying 10-20% more for Jackson than Hurts in the year 2023 on a long term, multi-year, heavily guaranteed, contract?

And if so, why do you think that apparently every single real life GM, and most NFL analysts, are of a completely differing opinion?

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496302#Comment_120496302

Ah now, serious pot calling the kettle black with your complaints here.

You never directly answered the question in my previous post, at least I referenced yours and why it wasn't worth going into.

You're also complaining about being asked to get into a hypothetical debate while in the very same post asking me to respond to a question about a hypothetical demand from Lamar.

What the Ravens could have done, as far back as the offseason of 2021, is completely relevant here. You're trying to use a baseline of a player coming off his 2nd season as a starter, who has made very little money and only scheduled to make $4m this year, versus one coming off his fourth year, made $23m last year and currently scheduled to make $32m in 2023.

Eagles are taking a risk and had a stronger negotiation advantage even before the good faith they showed Hurts in supporting him and making a deal when they did, the complete opposite of what the Ravens have done for Lamar.

Hurts and Lamar are apples and oranges when it comes to their situation.

eagle eye

I think its funny how you say they are apples and oranges but keep comparing them.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496651#Comment_120496651

You must only find it funny because you don't understand what the word 'comparing' means.

It is very easy to compare an apple and an orange, they have both similarities and differences.

Trying to equate the two, like other posters have, is where it is a waste of time because there are too many differences.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496715#Comment_120496715

Well Hurts missed two games and the Eagles lost both and Minshew, who I'd consider a serviceable QB, got sacked six times in one of those games. So do we blame the offensive line for that? Is there a case where they have looked better than they are by having Hurts under center.

Also on the OC situation I think it's a little unfair to say that there was a big advantage for Hurts. The Ravens were 9-4 when Lamar went down. They struggled after that. As regards receivers, they had the best receiving tight end in the league who had a bad year with injuries. He has been Lamar's favourite target for quite a while. They also lost Rashod Bateman who had looked decent before injury took its toll early in the season. It's not up to the standard of the Eagles receiving corp but it's decent if they are all fit.

Roman won the AP coordinator of the year award in 2019, the other OCs to win that award are Kyle Shanahan, Pat Shurmur and Brian Daboll. That's not bad company to be keeping.

Hurts was being talked about as a serious MVP candidate before the injury. I like Lamar but I'd take Hurts everyday over him. Hurts is a better passer, he's a really good runner too.

The similarities between an apple and an orange is that they are both round and fruits.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496610#Comment_120496610

Hurts and Jackson are two of the most similar QBs in the NFL you'll find in terms of age, play style, and most importantly for this discussion the fact that they're both negotiating a long term contract in April 2023.

You've written all of that to again completely avoid answering the simple question, which speaks volumes.

You're arguing a rather odd position thats apparently at odds with every NFL management professional. First it was that all of the NFL teams were in collusion against Jackson. Then it was that NFL owners were desperately trying not to pay out $200mn in guarantees to anyone. And now its that Jackson is a completely different, incomparable player, to Hurts.

Its a hell of a lot of mental gymnastics to just avoid accepting the fact that Jackson is a terrible negotiator who has massively overvalued himself.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497025#Comment_120497025

Lots of words there but at no point in any of that do you clearly reject my claim that Hurts had better OL, WR, and OC so good to see we have another rare agreement between us.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498323#Comment_120498323

I never said Lamar and Hurts are incomparable players, I clearly posted the complete opposite yesterday.

What I am saying is the overall context of the two situations are so different in many ways that you can't equate them like you are trying to.

You're treating them like they are two guys in FA on Madden that a GM can pick between.

We'll see at some stage how good or bad a negotiator Lamar is - I'm pretty confident he'll end up signing a deal better than Hurts', especially taking into account his agent savings, and my confidence will only grow when Burrow and Herbert's deals come through going above Hurts'. Teams never save money waiting to pay their QB.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499568#Comment_120499568

I clearly asked you a question about the Eagles offensive line allowing six sacks on Minshew in one game.

I mentioned the OC situation and how the guy you are dismissing, Roman, as not as good as the Eagles OC is one of four offensive coordinators to win the AP coordinator award with the other three being Kyle Shanahan, Pat Shurmur and Brian Daboll. You have nothing to say about that either.

Lamar wom the mvp 4 years ago. Hes failed to play a full season since id not be giving him full garintees. Add to that a ravens are a team thats been consistently successful for decades at times with sub par qbs.

Ravens dont have as good a roster as the eagles right now (albeit the eagles rosters in a bit of a bubble currently) but to say theve not looked after hims unfair i think. Since hes been drafted hes gotten two first rd recievers and a first rd center. Theve a very very good o-line and one of the best recieving tight ends in the league. They also drafted a rb 2nd rd and hes class but unfortunately injury prone much like lamar

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500091#Comment_120500091

All while not disagreeing with original points.

You're doing your very best to pull me down a goal post moving rabbit hole and for once I'm not going there.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500636#Comment_120500636

I'm not trying anything of the sort. You said the Eagles had a better offensive line and OC. I've responded to those two things but you don't want to engage about them probably because you have no answer. Ravens OC received an AP coordinator of the year award and he's in good company as far as offensive coordinators who have won the award. So you have no rebuttal as regards who is the better OC between the Eagles and Ravens.

Likewise the fact that the Eagles OL gave up six sacks when Minshew was under center doesn't suit your argument that they are a better OL than the Ravens so you ignore that too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120501052#Comment_120501052

The eagles oline was also missing the vest right tackle in the league for those games but ya youd be fairly notorious for goalpost shifting

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120501809#Comment_120501809

Goalpost shifting?

Read his post claiming the Eagles OL and OC were better than the Ravens

Then go read my response. There's no movement away from a topic he brought up.

Cop on and read posts before making accusations.

And try to be better with your English as well.

Christ thats me off again 🙄

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120502093#Comment_120502093

Good riddins.

adrian522

Please keep your comments civil and respectful, I have issued warnings and will ban users if this continues.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120501052#Comment_120501052

So you are claiming that the Ravens OL and OC were better last year than the Eagles?

You'd be quite unique in holding that opinion.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500124#Comment_120500124

I agree, I think it is fair to say they've tried but they've clearly failed in what they were trying to do.

One of those 1st round WRs has already been traded away to draft that center and the other WR has been consistently injured, along with the injuries to the RB you've noted. By letting Roman walk they've also clearly accepted that he hasn't been doing a good job as an OC.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120503828#Comment_120503828

I never said that either. My point is that you can't say that there's a big gap between the Ravens OL or OC and that of the Eagles but you were making out that there was a huge gap between both.

The Ravens gave up 38 sacks over the season, the Eagles 44.

The Eagles were better in short yardage situations.

Overall there was very little between them.

Then the OC situation, Roman one of four OCs to win the AP coordinator of the year award and I've shared the names with you of the other three to win that award.

You come out and say that the Eagles OC is better based on his two seasons in Philly while Roman has been awarded at the highest level as a coordinator

And the funny thing is you rave about the quality of the Eagles receivers in comparison to the Ravens which means you should be putting less emphasis on the quality of the OC.

Mr. Guappa

Rodgers to the Jets is agreed. Flip of first rounders this year (13 to GB, 15 to NYJ), the Packers get a 2nd this year and a 2nd next year that becomes a 1st if Rodgers plays 65% of snaps. An exchange of late round picks too.

Feels like a slight overpay by the Jets, but the AFC becomes even more stacked.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120517120#Comment_120517120

It's a crazy price for a 39 year old QB who didn't look anywhere near his best last season.

A third rounder seems about right to me.

Mr. Guappa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120517208#Comment_120517208

That contract was a noose around the Packers neck too. Seems like the Jets blinked first.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120517222#Comment_120517222

I complete forgot about the contract, complete madness that.