Is this the start of the end for diesel?

Shefwedfan

After 10 years it seems the green party's new car tax system might actually do what it is supposed to do and clean up the car's on the Irish roads

https://amp.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/pressure-for-action-to-avert-extra-vrt-and-road-tax-on-newcar-buyers-as-new-emissions-test-bites-37128907.html

So much for VW been the only car manufacturer fixing the tests....

meep

So this is car manufacturers saying;

'We've been cheating emissions results to get around an emissions-based tax system. We've been found out. Now all we want is for you to change the system please'.

How about they go off and build cleaner cars instead.

Henry Ford III

Once again and for the sake of clarity VAG have been fined billions for deliberately using cheat devices/ software on their diesels.

Ubbquittious

Green party?

I thought we got rid of them

Shefwedfan

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Once again and for the sake of clarity VAG have been fined billions for deliberately using cheat devices/ software on their diesels.

A device which was developed by Bosch who are the main supplier to every car manufacturer in the World....just worth remembering that

How come now with new test suddenly Ford engine is not clean? in other words it was never clean. They just knew how to get around the old test

Ford are not the only ones....all manufacturers are the exact same....in other words they all managed to get around the test

Nissan have come out recently as well and admitted their emmission are higher and they made a mistake on the test:P

Shefwedfan

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Green party?

I thought we got rid of them

They paid the price for introducing a green car tax which actually put more unhealthy cars on the road...

The latest I seen was from a Green Party member who thought it was a great idea to build a road in Swords :P not take people off the roads but to put more on them....f**king idiots

Henry Ford III

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A device which was developed by Bosch who are the main supplier to every car manufacturer in the World....just worth remembering that

How come now with new test suddenly Ford engine is not clean? in other words it was never clean. They just knew how to get around the old test

Ford are not the only ones....all manufacturers are the exact same....in other words they all managed to get around the test

Nissan have come out recently as well and admitted their emmission are higher and they made a mistake on the test:P

That's nonsense. The standards are changing so engines that fairly gave one result under the earlier less stringent standards won't yield such positive results under stricter testing.

p.s. VW were fined for cheating, and not Bosch.

Shefwedfan

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That's nonsense. The standards are changing so engines that fairly gave one result under the earlier less stringent standards won't yield such positive results under stricter testing.

p.s. VW were fined for cheating, and not Bosch.

How is it nonsense? have you actually seen the difference
http://wltpfacts.eu/from-nedc-to-wltp-change/

If the engine was clean in the first place then going from a 20 min test to a 30 min test should make no difference.

P.S. https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2017/0203/Bosch-agrees-to-pay-327-million-for-helping-VW-cheat-on-emissions

Henry Ford III

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How is it nonsense? have you actually seen the difference
http://wltpfacts.eu/from-nedc-to-wltp-change/

If the engine was clean in the first place then going from a 20 min test to a 30 min test should make no difference.

P.S. https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2017/0203/Bosch-agrees-to-pay-327-million-for-helping-VW-cheat-on-emissions

Your earlier claim that "......in other words it was never clean. They just knew how to get around the old test" is nonsense.

Shefwedfan

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Your earlier claim that "......in other words it was never clean. They just knew how to get around the old test" is nonsense.

How is it nonsense? the diesel Mondeo passed the old test and had a stupid low tax bracket. The same car now does the new test and it's so bad they won't even put it up for sale in Ireland?

So how did it pass the old test with flying colours and the new one it can't? they are testing for the exact same thing? they are just changing the speed a little and testing for an extra 10 mins?

R.O.R

Is it just diesel cars effected? All petrols are the same under WLTP as NEDC then?

Shefwedfan

R.O.R wrote: »

Is it just diesel cars effected? All petrols are the same under WLTP as NEDC then?

Diesel and petrol. The article says the hybrid Ford is also having issues

Please note I am just using Ford as that is what is reference in the article. All the manufacturers are going to have issues with this.....

Just to show you this is going on in all car manufacturers

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-peugeot-gm-opel-exclusive/exclusive-psa-seeks-opel-refund-from-gm-over-co2-emissions-idUSKBN1DT1NA


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R.O.R

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Diesel and petrol. The article says the hybrid Ford is also having issues

So why is it the start of the end for Diesel, and not the start of the end for the internal combustion engine?

Bosch are working on new tech for Diesels that drastically reduces nox emissions, and has been proven to work in real world situations. As it's only really nox that modern diesel cars fall behind petrol cars in, I think diesel will see another bounce when this is implemented.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/04/bosch-might-just-have-solved-the-problem-of-diesel-nox-emissions/

Shefwedfan

R.O.R wrote: »

So why is it the start of the end for Diesel, and not the start of the end for the internal combustion engine?

Bosch are working on new tech for Diesels that drastically reduces nox emissions, and has been proven to work in real world situations. As it's only really nox that modern diesel cars fall behind petrol cars in, I think diesel will see another bounce when this is implemented.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/04/bosch-might-just-have-solved-the-problem-of-diesel-nox-emissions/

The increase on petrol is not going to be as bad as diesel. As you have seen the Mondeo diesel was pulled from the market. The petrol and hybrid will not.

You trust Bosch? this is the same company along with VW and the rest who told us the previous diesel was cleaner than anything before it.....until they got caught of course

The cleaner engine as well is a mild hybrid system. So a tiny battery with a diesel engine, even smaller battery than a hybrid. I will wait and see how "clean" it is.....

Most people in Ireland drive diesel because of cheap tax....they get cheap tax because the engine is supposed to be clean. If the WLTP test shows that and people move to alternatives then it is better for everyone.....

allthedoyles

Well we intend to stick with diesel cars for the immediate future.
Very economical on long-distance journeys.

Shefwedfan

allthedoyles wrote: »

Well we intend to stick with diesel cars for the immediate future.
Very economical on long-distance journeys.

What would you class as long distance journeys?

Also how regular do you do them?

_Brian

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What would you class as long distance journeys?

Also how regular do you do them?

We have two diesels here, 35k & 45k kilometres a year, and intow trailer regularly.
I can’t see another option for us but diesel.

Leonard Hofstadter

_Brian wrote: »

We have two diesels here, 35k & 45k kilometres a year, and intow trailer regularly.
I can’t see another option for us but diesel.

Yup, diesel is still the best option for high mileage motorists.

allthedoyles

I do 35k annually with about 50% on the N25 .
Would love a hybrid but going to wait.

EPAndlee

It isnt the end of diesel, unless the government is going to buy us all hybrids. I'm sticking with my dirty diesel anyway

doolox

My wife and I are both high mileage drivers at the moment.

I just received news today that might see my wifes mileage reduced drastically in that she got a new job much nearer home.

I do 600 Km per week minimum on work related stuff alone and possible another 200 Km on driving my daughter around. This could soon change as she is now about to learn to drive.

I would gladly go electric but for range and the horror stories I hear about the lack of chargers and people hogging chargers all day or ordinary cars taking up charger space. I have absolutely no faith in the civic spirit of the Irish motorist to behave in a considerate manner or for the government or a government semi state to provide adequate charging infrastructure in the future.

I am not prepared to waste time waiting at some remote location to charge up from near empty or rely on dodgy charger locations or have my power source blocked by the countless thousands of inconsiderate people who would hog these spaces all day, or park an ordinary car in the electric only space.

Diesel for me for the foreseeable future.

There is one day when I do over 200 Km so that rules out electric for me unless things change.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Tesla range on the model S is over 600kms on the long range

But we don't exactly have an hundred grand just lying around !

Maybe the model 3 can do something about the price !

But I'm on the band wagon of people hogging up chargers

There's a esb charger at arklow train station and the same car is plugged into it from evening, overnight and into morning.

I reckon the owner lives very close by and whenever he or she is home they just plug in and leave it, meaning it could be there for days not moved.

That's just one example of what's going on around the place and the reason we can't have electric cars for everyday use just yet unless there's a way to control cars usuage at stations or time restrictions etc.

I mean after all, the whole idea of the electric car is to charge at home overnight in the drive or garage (not possible for everyone I know)

I think when esb introduce prices for charging in public there might magically be chargers free more often.....

ba_barabus

Tbh the 1.5d Mondeo was a dog to drive. Glad it's gone.

nice_guy80

Can't blame the green party for car companies lying and cheating

Shefwedfan

doolox wrote: »

My wife and I are both high mileage drivers at the moment.

I just received news today that might see my wifes mileage reduced drastically in that she got a new job much nearer home.

I do 600 Km per week minimum on work related stuff alone and possible another 200 Km on driving my daughter around. This could soon change as she is now about to learn to drive.

I would gladly go electric but for range and the horror stories I hear about the lack of chargers and people hogging chargers all day or ordinary cars taking up charger space. I have absolutely no faith in the civic spirit of the Irish motorist to behave in a considerate manner or for the government or a government semi state to provide adequate charging infrastructure in the future.

I am not prepared to waste time waiting at some remote location to charge up from near empty or rely on dodgy charger locations or have my power source blocked by the countless thousands of inconsiderate people who would hog these spaces all day, or park an ordinary car in the electric only space.

Diesel for me for the foreseeable future.

There is one day when I do over 200 Km so that rules out electric for me unless things change.

This is not a thread about the benefits of electric. That is another days conversation. I would suggest you post the details above and in electric car forum and you might be surprised.

ba_barabus

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This is not a thread about the benefits of electric.

Thank God for that as the above doesn't seem like benefits. Charger hogging is an issue that I've seen.

demanufactured

Shefwedfan wrote: »

After 10 years it seems the green party's new car tax system might actually do what it is supposed to do and clean up the car's on the Irish roads

https://amp.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/pressure-for-action-to-avert-extra-vrt-and-road-tax-on-newcar-buyers-as-new-emissions-test-bites-37128907.html

So much for VW been the only car manufacturer fixing the tests....

Being.

John_Rambo

Car manufacturers have been moving away from diesel for a few years now.

It's done. Diesel is done.

They're not going to continue to manufacture diesel cars for a tiny country on the Atlantic seaboard who's customers are confident in thinking their commutes are bigger or longer than their German, French or Austrian neighbours.

And, now we've PCP on diesel cars, the latest fast-sell on diesel cars, a last grasp attempt to push car buyers in to a scam that will leave their cars at a much less value than the value they're currently valued at.

The PCP sellers are giving trade-up estimates on today's trade up markets. They're not estimating how much they'll be worth in four years time.

Buyer beware, don't go in blind.

DaveyDave

I'll be interested in seeing how much more expensive cars will be now. They're already expensive enough as it is.

beertons

Is it red or green they're talking about?

bazz26

Should be good value in buying diesels over the next few years as the sheep get herded by the motor industry towards trendy plug in appliances.

unkel

allthedoyles wrote: »

I do 35k annually with about 50% on the N25 .
Would love a hybrid but going to wait.

Hybrid won't save you any money over diesel. But if you have the budget for a new(ish) car, do post details about your driving pattern (and your budget) on the EV forum and you might be surprised about the replies.

Tuco88

And they think we are "saving" the place with the hybrid cars ffs.Gota love the motor industry they will find mugs every time.

Buy a honda 50 and a push bike. Use the bus when needed, chape motoring in all its glory.

unkel

Tuco88 wrote: »

And they think we are "saving" the place with the hybrid cars ffs.

Well, Toyota hybrids are "self charging" according to their ads. No need to even plug them in. That's wonderful!

_Brian

With no vrt on commercials surely we will just see loads of folks buy and run small vans or commercial variants of cars.
I’m already considering it for my next purchase.

ford2600

The real question rather than OP title is what will EV cost to run when diesel is finished with?

€5 billion is collected per year from motorists in Ireland; the gap will be plugged.

Watch for the long con rather than falling for "cheap" running costs in short term.

Electric transportation is the future just don't cod yourself it's going to be cheap for too long.

9935452

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Tesla range on the model S is over 600kms on the long range

But we don't exactly have an hundred grand just lying around !

Maybe the model 3 can do something about the price !

But I'm on the band wagon of people hogging up chargers

There's a esb charger at arklow train station and the same car is plugged into it from evening, overnight and into morning.

I reckon the owner lives very close by and whenever he or she is home they just plug in and leave it, meaning it could be there for days not moved.

That's just one example of what's going on around the place and the reason we can't have electric cars for everyday use just yet unless there's a way to control cars usuage at stations or time restrictions etc.

I mean after all, the whole idea of the electric car is to charge at home overnight in the drive or garage (not possible for everyone I know)

I think when esb introduce prices for charging in public there might magically be chargers free more often.....

The range on the standard model 3 is 200 miles. In the states it costs 10k dollars more for the battery which does 300 miles which will most likely be 10 grand or more here too.
It will make that car a lot more expensive

9935452

unkel wrote: »

Tuco88 wrote: »

And they think we are "saving" the place with the hybrid cars ffs.

Well, Toyota hybrids are "self charging" according to their ads. No need to even plug them in. That's wonderful!

The most well known hybrid is the prius.
Little known fact is it will go 12 miles on a charge of the good battery.

_Brian

If the best offering from EV supporters is to mention the mega expensive Tesla as an example of range then we are in trouble.

Until there are examples of large family saloon cars with 4-600km ranges for reasonable money they are not going to become mainstream.

Now, there are lots and lots of people out there who are prefect for the likes of the leaf but as of yet are afraid to take the leap.

I do wonder if banning diesels from urban centres or charging them for access would indeed force these people over to EV in droves, but is the infrastructure ready for that.

R.O.R

9935452 wrote: »

The most well known hybrid is the prius.
Little known fact is it will go 12 miles on a charge of the good battery.

Really?

I couldn't get more than 2km driving in EV mode in the new model demo I had a couple of years ago.

Or, are you talking about the plug-in hybrid version?

tabby aspreme

One of the negatives of owning an EV in an urban area is the difficulty of having your own charger, if you can only park on the street

9935452

R.O.R wrote: »

9935452 wrote: »

The most well known hybrid is the prius.
Little known fact is it will go 12 miles on a charge of the good battery.

Really?

I couldn't get more than 2km driving in EV mode in the new model demo I had a couple of years ago.

Or, are you talking about the plug-in hybrid version?

Not sure. I just googled it at one stage out of interest and thats the figure that came back .

jester77

They have started banning diesel vehicles on some of the busier streets here in Hamburg, it is closely monitored and they have made a lot of cash from all the fines so far. It's only a matter time until diesel disappears, people are not going to consider diesel when you are limited to where you can drive.

Larbre34

9935452 wrote: »

The most well known hybrid is the prius.
Little known fact is it will go 12 miles on a charge of the good battery.

Not to mention its whole life environmental footprint far exceeds that of a combustion engined car due to the dirty business of strip mining and end-of-life disposal of the rare earth metals in the batteries. Also in case of a PHEV if you charge off the national grid in Ireland you are consuming juice that is ~90% non renewable.

_Brian

jester77 wrote: »

They have started banning diesel vehicles on some of the busier streets here in Hamburg, it is closely monitored and they have made a lot of cash from all the fines so far. It's only a matter time until diesel disappears, people are not going to consider diesel when you are limited to where you can drive.

Diesel cars don’t belong in cities but they do have a place and will continue to for quite some time, having once off charges, say €5 per trip would deter everyday drivers from owning diesels in cities but allow other folk visit occasionally for a charge.

It’s about the right vehicle for the right driving habits. Constructive forward thinking public policy manipulates people to move in a positive direction.

Twenty Grand

_Brian wrote: »

If the best offering from EV supporters is to mention the mega expensive Tesla as an example of range then we are in trouble.

Until there are examples of large family saloon cars with 4-600km ranges for reasonable money they are not going to become mainstream.

Now, there are lots and lots of people out there who are prefect for the likes of the leaf but as of yet are afraid to take the leap.

I do wonder if banning diesels from urban centres or charging them for access would indeed force these people over to EV in droves, but is the infrastructure ready for that.

Fully agree. The range of a typical EV would probably suit 90% of journeys for nearly everyone in the country.

But no one wants to get stuck for charge on the other 10%.

When I can comfortably get from Dublin to Cork and back, I'll buy an EV.

_Brian

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Fully agree. The range of a typical EV would probably suit 90% of journeys for nearly everyone in the country.

But no one wants to get stuck for charge on the other 10%.

When I can comfortably get from Dublin to Cork and back, I'll buy an EV.

I’ll need one to tow a tonne and do 300km towing it. I may have a considerable wait I think.

tabby aspreme

_Brian wrote: »

Diesel cars don’t belong in cities but they do have a place and will continue to for quite some time, having once off charges, say €5 per trip would deter everyday drivers from owning diesels in cities but allow other folk visit occasionally for a charge.

It’s about the right vehicle for the right driving habits. Constructive forward thinking public policy manipulates people to move in a positive direction.

Similar to the way congestion charges are levied in London.
The dirty diesel car in this house has just left for its daily commute to Dublin, 410000 kms, engine clutch and gearbox never touched, except for oil changes , still on the original timing chain, that's why ppl like diesels. Unless there is a massive increase in charging infrastructure and a 300km range in all weather's, EVs are still going to be hard to sell

ford2600

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Similar to the way congestion charges are levied in London.
The dirty diesel car in this house has just left for its daily commute to Dublin, 410000 kms, engine clutch and gearbox never touched, except for oil changes , still on the original timing chain, that's why ppl like diesels. Unless there is a massive increase in charging infrastructure and a 300km range in all weather's, EVs are still going to be hard to sell

You don't get to feel warm and fuzzy on a windy day though

tabby aspreme

ford2600 wrote: »

You don't get to feel warm and fuzzy on a windy day though

Oh yes I do , sometimes I don't shave for a week and wear my big wooly jumper.

ford2600

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Oh yes I do , sometimes I don't shave for a week and wear my big wooly jumper.

The image would work with an EV driver; do you like skinny lattes and craft beer?