Why do Nissan Leafs lose value so quickly?

pawdee

Just wondering if anyone can explain how not very old Nissan Leafs can be advertised for as little as 5K on DoneDeal when they're high 20s / 30+ k new? I might be a bit out in my figures (I've only started looking today) but is there a major downside to Leafs (and electric cars generally) that I should be aware of?

If they're so cheap to run why do so many people seem to be getting rid of not very old ones? If anyone could enlighten me about EVs I'd appreciate it. There's so much information on Boards alone I can't process it!

troyzer

The batteries decay. The early first generation models can have a range below 50km if they've had particularly bad decay.

It can cost the best part of €10k to replace them so older Leafs are either useless for anything other than nipping down to the shop or a really expensive fixer upper and the price reflects that.

pawdee

troyzer wrote: »

The batteries decay. The early first generation models can have a range below 50km if they've had particularly bad decay.

It can cost the best part of €10k to replace them so older Leafs are either useless for anything other than nipping down to the shop or a really expensive fixer upper and the price reflects that.

Ah, I thought there had to be a catch! Thanks for explaining that.

unkel

A year or two ago you could buy a reasonable range 2011 Leaf for EUR5k. Now the same car is worth about EUR7k, so the values have gone up, not down!

The only EURk Leaf you can now buy is one with a severely badly degraded battery, like the one on DoneDeal that you saw

troyzer

pawdee wrote: »

Ah, I thought there had to be a catch! Thanks for explaining that.

This might be one of the Leafs you're looking at for €5k.

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/nissan-leaf-2011/18960416

Look at the range the seller is quoting, 30 miles is just under 50km. If you lived in Maynooth and worked in the city centre you wouldn't make it home every evening.

Gumbo

pawdee wrote: »

Just wondering if anyone can explain how not very old Nissan Leafs can be advertised for as little as 5K on DoneDeal when they're high 20s / 30+ k new? I might be a bit out in my figures (I've only started looking today) but is there a major downside to Leafs (and electric cars generally) that I should be aware of?

If they're so cheap to run why do so many people seem to be getting rid of not very old ones? If anyone could enlighten me about EVs I'd appreciate it. There's so much information on Boards alone I can't process it!

How much is an equivalent petrol/diesel car of similar value and similar year advertised for?

liamog

kceire wrote: »

How much is an equivalent petrol/diesel car of similar value and similar year advertised for?

What would be the ICE equivalent for a car that needs €5,000 of work?

Shefwedfan

Main reason the Leaf lost its value was Nissan dropped the price of a older model once a new one came out. Like selling off the 24kWh SVE for 20k at end of last year. A lady posted on facebook that she had paid 28k or something like that last year, then went to swap this year and was quoted 15k or something on it....those numbers are not exact but something stupid like that

It has to be noted, I bought second hand last year. If I sold the car I bought second hand I could make up to 2k profit with a car 1 year older. To get a good second hand Leaf for decent value is extremely hard......

Orebro

troyzer wrote: »

The batteries decay. The early first generation models can have a range below 50km if they've had particularly bad decay.

It can cost the best part of €10k to replace them so older Leafs are either useless for anything other than nipping down to the shop or a really expensive fixer upper and the price reflects that.

That’s the type of baloney that is stopping EVs from being sold in this country.

troyzer

Orebro wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

The batteries decay. The early first generation models can have a range below 50km if they've had particularly bad decay.

It can cost the best part of €10k to replace them so older Leafs are either useless for anything other than nipping down to the shop or a really expensive fixer upper and the price reflects that.

That’s the type of baloney that is stopping EVs from being sold in this country.

It's not baloney at all. It's why Nissan have the bar gauge to keep track of battery degradation. Why would the seller of a car lie and say their range is nearly gone? This isn't the fault of EVs. It's battery technology in general. If you have an iPhone that you've been charging every day for the last seven years I guarantee the battery doesn't last more than an hour.

As far as the cost of replacing the batteries go, ring Nissan if you don't believe me.

unkel

troyzer wrote: »

It's not baloney at all. It's why Nissan have the bar gauge to keep track of battery degradation. Why would the seller of a car lie and say their range is nearly gone? This isn't the fault of EVs. It's battery technology in general.

It is not battery technology in general. Yes, batteries degrade over time, but the rate is slow and gradual on any EV sold today. Most manufacturers give 8 years battery warranties now and in the USA the battery on the Hyundai Ioniq is guaranteed for life. Once an EV comes to end of life, say after 15 years, the car is still worth quite a bit of money and the battery will be taken out and used for another 15 years as home or grid storage

Yes, the early Leaf batteries were not as good as the current batteries are, but a 2011 Leaf with only 7 bars left like in the ad, is the exception. Most would have about 10 bars at this stage...

FriendsEV

unkel wrote: »

It is not battery technology in general. Yes, batteries degrade over time, but the rate is slow and gradual on any EV sold today. Most manufacturers give 8 years battery warranties now and in the USA the battery on the Hyundai Ioniq is guaranteed for life. Once an EV comes to end of life, say after 15 years, the car is still worth quite a bit of money and the battery will be taken out and used for another 15 years as home or grid storage

Yes, the early Leaf batteries were not as good as the current batteries are, but a 2011 Leaf with only 7 bars left like in the ad, is the exception. Most would have about 10 bars at this stage...

All the Leafs have Tesco value batteries tbf, except maybe a batch of later gen 24kWh

Orebro

troyzer wrote: »

It's not baloney at all. It's why Nissan have the bar gauge to keep track of battery degradation. Why would the seller of a car lie and say their range is nearly gone? This isn't the fault of EVs. It's battery technology in general. If you have an iPhone that you've been charging every day for the last seven years I guarantee the battery doesn't last more than an hour.

As far as the cost of replacing the batteries go, ring Nissan if you don't believe me.

Unfortunately you don’t know what you’re talking about - your points make no sense for EVs post 2014. We could all find an example of a cheap car that’s a dog but it doesn’t mean every other model of that car is in the same condition.

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

The batteries decay. The early first generation models can have a range below 50km if they've had particularly bad decay.

It can cost the best part of €10k to replace them so older Leafs are either useless for anything other than nipping down to the shop or a really expensive fixer upper and the price reflects that.

Load of rubbish

As I mentioned I bought a early Gen 1 last year....it still has 12 bars

Just because one car is advertised with a low battery doesn’t mean that’s all Leaf. That’s the only time I ever seen one so bad

The same as a bad petrol/diesel car which happens all the time....I don’t see every other car in that range then getting tarred with the same brush

Shefwedfan

FriendsEV wrote: »

All the Leafs have Tesco value batteries tbf, except maybe a batch of later gen 24kWh

More rubbish to be honest

People have driven huge mileage in Leaf without any issues.....people on here have as well

I am no fan of Leaf but the amount of rubbish from people is unreal. The Leaf itself is a great car, it just looks so damn ugly

FriendsEV

Shefwedfan wrote: »

More rubbish to be honest

People have driven huge mileage in Leaf without any issues.....people on here have as well

I am no fan of Leaf but the amount of rubbish from people is unreal. The Leaf itself is a great car, it just looks so damn ugly

Loads of studies have been done about Leafs degradation issues, warm climates especially. I recall a large study in New Zealand of issue with newer 30kWh degradation, New Zealand is a temperate climate and 30kWh is petty modern

40kWh 2018 Leaf we all know has cheap ass battery/bms

i3, Ioniq, e-golf don't seem to have any issues

Shefwedfan

FriendsEV wrote: »

Loads of studies have been done about Leafs degradation issues, warm climates especially. I recall a large study in New Zealand of issue with newer 30kWh degradation, New Zealand is a temperate climate and 30kWh is petty modern

40kWh 2018 Leaf we all know has cheap ass battery/bms

i3, Ioniq, e-golf don't seem to have any issues

The L40 issue is to do with battery over heating....the lack of a cooling system is issue

0lddog

Has anyone mentioned that the DD leaf has saved someone approx 10k in fuel costs over its life to-date ?

5k to bring battery up to 'as new' seems pretty good to me in the circs.

Orebro

FriendsEV wrote: »

Loads of studies have been done about Leafs degradation issues, warm climates especially. I recall a large study in New Zealand of issue with newer 30kWh degradation, New Zealand is a temperate climate and 30kWh is petty modern

40kWh 2018 Leaf we all know has cheap ass battery/bms

i3, Ioniq, e-golf don't seem to have any issues

The stink of BS from this thread is awful.

FriendsEV

Orebro wrote: »

The stink of BS from this thread is awful.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-gets-replacement-battery-4-bar-loss/amp/

http://evtalk.co.nz/nissan-investigating-reports-of-30kwh-leaf-battery-degradation/

https://transportevolved.com/2018/03/26/rapidgate-what-we-know-about-2018-nissan-leaf-rapid-charging-woes/

Where's the BS?

Shefwedfan

FriendsEV wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-gets-replacement-battery-4-bar-loss/amp/

http://evtalk.co.nz/nissan-investigating-reports-of-30kwh-leaf-battery-degradation/

https://transportevolved.com/2018/03/26/rapidgate-what-we-know-about-2018-nissan-leaf-rapid-charging-woes/

Where's the BS?

As above, rapidgate is in regards to overheating of the battery. Nothing to do with loss of capacity so I have no idea why you are referencing that?

Not sure why you posted an article that has "report" and "insufficient" in it....

The other article reference Nissan swapping battery if customer has issues? what is problem with that? Loads of companies have to swap out engines in dodgy cars....I don't see that been used as a stick to beat them

Also the other BS is the 10k to replace the battery, the funny bit was about contact Nissan:P:P:P:P:P......I contacted the donedeal seller. He is talking to Nissan....its 3-4k they are talking about...

So yes I agree with Orebro....a stink of something alright

tedpan

I've had my leaf for just over 3 years now, covered 110,000kms, the battery has lost no bars and has 95% capacity when tested with LeafSpy.

It's a superbly built car and drives like new. Don't think I'll ever sell it as nothing compares to it for the the value others put on it.

FriendsEV

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As above, rapidgate is in regards to overheating of the battery. Nothing to do with loss of capacity so I have no idea why you are referencing that?

Not sure why you posted an article that has "report" and "insufficient" in it....

The other article reference Nissan swapping battery if customer has issues? what is problem with that? Loads of companies have to swap out engines in dodgy cars....I don't see that been used as a stick to beat them

Also the other BS is the 10k to replace the battery, the funny bit was about contact Nissan:P:P:P:P:P......I contacted the donedeal seller. He is talking to Nissan....its 3-4k they are talking about...

So yes I agree with Orebro....a stink of something alright

I think you will find battery degradation and rapidgate will go hand in hand

This will be the one to get

Decent barbecue for someone 😂

https://insideevs.com/nissan-confirms-leaf-nismo-on-sale-end-of-this-month/

Shefwedfan

FriendsEV wrote: »

I think you will find battery degradation and rapidgate will go hand in hand

You have no idea....pure speculation

I must remember "Don't feed the Thierry troll":D

Well I'm shocked (as Shefwedfan is positive about a lowly Nissan. They are not ugly, they are "distinctive", lol). Is there any chance that the 2011 in question got a new battery at some stage for example under warranty? The 12 bars on a 7 year old (early) LEAF is almost unheard of.

Yes, good attempt to muddy the waters there "Friend" of EVs: The rapidgate and battery degradation on L40 goes hand in hand: It's done to avoid potentially huge degradation of the battery by limiting the temperature of the battery from reaching dangerously high levels of heat. It's not an indication of low quality battery cells or BMS but actually a product of Nissan being proactive by preserving the life of battery due to cheap ass battery cooling system (there is none).

Time will tell if the resulting battery life of the L40 is better, the same, or worse than for example post 2013 L24 which is doing just fine. They could easily do better by active cooling but for some reason chose not to.

slave1

The OP is an outlier exception, we're now on a 2 year old, 24k kms and 102% SOH

FriendsEV

samih wrote: »

Well I'm shocked (as Shefwedfan is positive about a lowly Nissan. They are not ugly, they are "distinctive", lol). Is there any chance that the 2011 in question got a new battery at some stage for example under warranty? The 12 bars on a 7 year old (early) LEAF is almost unheard of.

He bought one

Great car now lol

Shefwedfan

samih wrote: »

Well I'm shocked (as Shefwedfan is positive about a lowly Nissan. They are not ugly, they are "distinctive", lol). Is there any chance that the 2011 in question got a new battery at some stage for example under warranty? The 12 bars on a 7 year old (early) LEAF is almost unheard of.

The Leaf was always a good car, just a car I wouldn't drive myself. Simple as that.

Orebro

FriendsEV wrote: »

He bought one

Great car now lol

How many Thierry alter egos are there?

Shefwedfan

Orebro wrote: »

How many Thierry alter egos are there?

3 including this one....

Who knows next week....

All of them are still only allowed post after school/summer camp is over :-)

Gumbo

Orebro wrote: »

How many Thierry alter egos are there?

Can be reported to a mod and banned for re-reg. especially if the re-reg is just to sh1t stir.

FriendsEV

kceire wrote: »

Can be reported to a mod and banned for re-reg. especially if the re-reg is just to sh1t stir.

Bored of being patronising in the construction forum?

DrPhilG

kceire wrote: »

Can be reported to a mod and banned for re-reg. especially if the re-reg is just to sh1t stir.

Even the original was only here to shlt stir...

Don't think they will ban him as he wasn't banned the first time. He came back under a different name for his own reasons, not as a means of circumventing a ban.

Gumbo

FriendsEV wrote: »

Bored of being patronising in the construction forum?

Thank you. Evidence acquired.

FriendsEV

kceire wrote: »

Thank you. Evidence acquired.

I doubt it

Shefwedfan

FriendsEV wrote: »

I doubt it

Thierry, is it not past your bed time.....:mad:

FriendsEV

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You have no idea....pure speculation

I must remember "Don't feed the Thierry troll":D

Its not looking good so far

Degradation on 40kWh already being reported

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=25726&start=50

unkel

10% battery degradation in just 9k miles on a L40 :eek:

I guess Nissan will have to do a lot of battery replacements under warranty. Their luck this time is that they no longer own part of AESC

DrPhilG

If this turns out to be a major issue then I can't promise that I won't show up on speakev.com with an exceptionally smug attitude...

Round Cable

unkel wrote: »

10% battery degradation in just 9k miles on a L40 :eek:

I guess Nissan will have to do a lot of battery replacements under warranty. Their luck this time is that they no longer own part of AESC

I'm afraid Nissan now own 100% of AESC.

https://insideevs.com/nissan-stuck-with-aesc-as-sale-of-battery-unit-to-gsr-was-canceled/

Gumbo

DrPhilG wrote: »

If this turns out to be a major issue then I can't promise that I won't show up on speakev.com with an exceptionally smug attitude...

Thread over there followed just incase

Shefwedfan

FriendsEV wrote: »

Its not looking good so far

Degradation on 40kWh already being reported

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=25726&start=50

When it happens to 200+ then they have an issue....when it happens to 1 car then maybe, just maybe that one has a bad battery

FriendsEV

Shefwedfan wrote: »

When it happens to 200+ then they have an issue....when it happens to 1 car then maybe, just maybe that one has a bad battery

True

It's not a good sign and Nissan have history for it

2 more in the thread have lost capacity

Can anyone guess how much battery degradation my I3 has suffered ? it's 1 year 4 months and has 29,772 Kms .

unkel

Round Cable wrote: »

I'm afraid Nissan now own 100% of AESC.

https://insideevs.com/nissan-stuck-with-aesc-as-sale-of-battery-unit-to-gsr-was-canceled/

Oh sweet Jesus.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Can anyone guess how much battery degradation my I3 has suffered ? it's 1 year 4 months and has 29,772 Kms .

0%

A few of the lads have tested their Ioniqs, up to 18 months old and with up to 50k km on them. All of them 0% degradation

I haven't tested mine (also 1 year and 4 months old, 19k km) and I know it is a warm summer, but I expect the same zero degradation - my range is far higher than last summer

Shefwedfan

A guy with eGolf and 80,000km in US tested when he got it....after the 80,000 it was the same result....

Based on the comments they are saying the degradation is less than Leaf but also it looks like VW pad the battery more. I have no idea but impressive stat, especially as the US would have higher/lower temp than Ireland so you would expect higher degradation

unkel

unkel wrote: »

0%

A few of the lads have tested their Ioniqs, up to 18 months old and with up to 50k km on them. All of them 0% degradation

I haven't tested mine (also 1 year and 4 months old, 19k km) and I know it is a warm summer, but I expect the same zero degradation - my range is far higher than last summer

Yep, 0 degradation.

Ioniq has LG battery, I would expect it to be better than Nissan's. Though the Zoe didn't fare as well.

It still baffles me who in Nissan decided no cooling of any kind was a good idea ? why ? past experience thought them nothing !

Worst of all is this could become bad for electric cars in general.

FriendsEV

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A guy with eGolf and 80,000km in US tested when he got it....after the 80,000 it was the same result....

Based on the comments they are saying the degradation is less than Leaf but also it looks like VW pad the battery more. I have no idea but impressive stat, especially as the US would have higher/lower temp than Ireland so you would expect higher degradation

Battery chemistry of Aesc Nissan cells is supposed to be inferior to what LG, Samsung etc used is a reason I have seen banded about too

Hence Tesco value battery vs Duracell jokes

tedpan

Deleted User wrote:

Can anyone guess how much battery degradation my I3 has suffered ? it's 1 year 4 months and has 29,772 Kms .

Deleted User wrote:

Yep, 0 degradation.

My leaf had 0% degradation at 60,000kms so I'd expect the beemer to at least be the same at half the Kms..

It might not be so inferior if they just fecking cooled the damn battery, idiots !