GoBe Cork - Dublin Airport Expansion

bk

GoBe between Cork and Dublin will have a new timetable that includes some extra departures Friday and Sunday, but also some services that now go direct Cork - Dublin Airport - Dublin City, rather then going to the city first.

The new schedule layout is a bit confusing IMO, with some buses going:
Cork - Dublin City - Dublin Airport
Cork - Dublin Airport Only
Cork - Dublin Airport - Dublin City

https://www.gobus.ie/timetable.php?map=35
https://www.gobus.ie/timetable.php?map=34

Good to see expansion in services to Cork.

Unofficially Aircoach has often run two buses every hour, one heading to Dublin City and one heading direct to Dublin Airport. Perhaps this will force them to make it a bit more official.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

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bk

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

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A private company hiring in another private to operate extra buses

I'd assume if it happens frequently enough, then it will end up cheaper for them to buy more coaches and operate it themselves, with official timetable, etc. Like Citlink does to Galway with Eireagle and it looks like GoBE are about to do.

I'm surprised Citylink didn't launch their Eireagle service between Cork and Dublin Airport. They already operate this service from Galway and Limerick and they already operate out of Cork with the Cork - Limerick - Galway service. Seems like a missed opportunity for them and would have loved to see more of their Vanhools in Cork.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

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devnull

Pretty hard to read timetable not really clear at all. And it's blurry!

bk

devnull wrote: »

Pretty hard to read timetable not really clear at all. And it's blurry!

Yeah, pretty hard to read! Hopefully they will update the website when the date comes and it will be laid out more clearly.

bk

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

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Given how frequently it happens, I can't imagine it being cheaper then adding their own extra coaches. Perhaps just a lack of capital budget to buy coaches.

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

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Basically BE and DC are non entity to/from Cork City, far too long compared to the other two, you'd be crazy to take either of those. An Eireagle direct service would destroy either of those for Airport runs.

I suspect it is more Aircoach being a very recognisable name to the airport that might of kept them out and a strong established history from Cork. Probably didn't want to go head to head against them. Perhaps just a coincidence, but it is notable that there is no overlap between Citylink and Aircoach, they don't compete directly anywhere. Would make for a incredibly strong merger/takeover!

A real pity, Citylink seem to be a tip top operator and Cork still is a bit all over the place (compared to Galway, still way better then Limerick and 5 years ago).

soundman45

bk wrote: »

Given how frequently it happens, I can't imagine it being cheaper then adding their own extra coaches. Perhaps just a lack of capital budget to buy coaches.



Basically BE and DC are non entity to/from Cork City, far too long compared to the other two, you'd be crazy to take either of those. An Eireagle direct service would destroy either of those for Airport runs.

I suspect it is more Aircoach being a very recognisable name to the airport that might of kept them out and a strong established history from Cork. Probably didn't want to go head to head against them. Perhaps just a coincidence, but it is notable that there is no overlap between Citylink and Aircoach, they don't compete directly anywhere. Would make for a incredibly strong merger/takeover!

A real pity, Citylink seem to be a tip top operator and Cork still is a bit all over the place (compared to Galway, still way better then Limerick and 5 years ago).

It's a good move by Go be and they have new sevice cork to dublin now at 0130 0330 0530. They obviously have seen the demand as aircoach are running 2/3 coaches each hour at 0100 0200 0300. Aircoach always send a coach direct to the airport to provide that option once customers are booked online they go on the extra coach direct to the airport.

devnull

soundman45 wrote: »

It's a good move by Go be and they have new sevice cork to dublin now at 0130 0330 0530. They obviously have seen the demand as aircoach are running 2/3 coaches each hour at 0100 0200 0300. Aircoach always send a coach direct to the airport to provide that option once customers are booked online they go on the extra coach direct to the airport.

Aircoach themselves only added the 2.00am, 6.30am and 7.30am from Cork about a year or so ago because of the fact the were running relief coaches on quite a regular basis so they obviously saw demand to add new timetabled services. Before that it was 1am, 3am, 5am, 6am, 7am, 8am and so on.

Be interesting to see what move Aircoach make now, bearing in mind their very commercially savvy MD joined Bus Eireann as Chief Customer Officer and the new Aircoach MD is more of an operational person, to the point that they are currently looking to hire someone with commercial experience.

Would not surprise me if Bus Eireann got the former Aircoach MDs input for these services, and surely BE and GoBus are going to give the new Aircoach MD a test early on to see how they react under the new leadership.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Good to see them doing earlier and later times, previously their timetable was very poor and no competition to Aircoach's one. Good to see more services.

soundman45

devnull wrote: »

Aircoach themselves only added the 2.00am, 6.30am and 7.30am from Cork about a year or so ago because of the fact the were running relief coaches on quite a regular basis so they obviously saw demand to add new timetabled services. Before that it was 1am, 3am, 5am, 6am, 7am, 8am and so on.

Be interesting to see what move Aircoach make now, bearing in mind their very commercially savvy MD joined Bus Eireann and their new MD is more of an operational person, to the point that they are currently looking to hire someone with commercial experience.

Would not surprise me if Bus Eireann got the former Aircoach MD's input for these services, and surely BE and GoBus are going to give the new Aircoach MD a test early on to see how they react under the new leadership.

I would imagine it will be very much on bus eireanns to do list. The former aircoach MD is a certainty to take over BE as their current boss is stepping down and he is bound to take on that route but as usual will meet with opposition from unions about drivers not being able to be tucked up in bed by midnight☺

devnull

soundman45 wrote: »

I would imagine it will be very much on bus eireanns to do list. The former aircoach MD is a certainty to take over BE as their current boss is stepping down and he is bound to take on that route but as usual will meet with opposition from unions about drivers not being able to be tucked up in bed by midnight☺

I always thought it was interesting that Allen Parker has gone from Aircoach MD to a role of Chief Customer Officer at Bus Eireann, especially when that role was one that didn't previously exist prior to his appointment to it and it always it did seem to be somewhat of an odd fit and role.

As you say the MD of Bus Eireann has stepping down, however they are going to appoint a different interim MD following this. It makes you wonder if Parker had a clause in his Aircoach contract about not taking certain roles with competitors for a certain period of time after leaving and they're just waiting that time out.

Then you'll have a strange situation where John O'Sullivan, who was at the helm of Aircoach for over a decade, and Parker at Bus Eireann, who was also at Aircoach for a decade, will be the biggest competitors to Aircoach on both the Cork and Dublin runs, essentially going up head to head against the company they built up.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised to see Aircoach be sold up to Go-Ahead for example. It would provide a good North Dublin base for them and First honestly don't have the finances right now to grow the business much more in the face of intensifying competition.

devnull

Clearer timetable now up:
http://gobe.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/TT-for-Gobe-website_V2-.pdf

mickmmc

How would the GOBE driver roster work for the early morning services?

Aircoach has Dublin based and Cork based drivers on the Cork Route.

Would those services be the return lap for GOBE drivers with some drivers based in Dublin?

It would hard to hack starting at 1:30am and 3:30am.

devnull

mickmmc wrote: »

How would the GOBE driver roster work for the early morning services?

Aircoach has Dublin based and Cork based drivers on the Cork Route.

Would those services be the return lap for GOBE drivers with some drivers based in Dublin?

It would hard to hack starting at 1:30am and 3:30am.

Perhaps those services will be operated by Bernard Kavanagh?

When GoBe started it was fully operated by Bernard Kavanagh, although about a year ago they started doing about half of the services in-house.

Victor

bk wrote: »

Unofficially Aircoach has often run two buses every hour, one heading to Dublin City and one heading direct to Dublin Airport. Perhaps this will force them to make it a bit more official.

NTA had previously cracked down on this for all operators, restricting the number of extra services that could be provided off-timetable.

soundman45

Aircoach now running direct to airport on the 1/2/3am services. I think they will still dominate on the Cork - Dublin route as they seem much more flexible to customer demands for example when I'm in Cork I've never seen Go Be put on extra busses. Do they just take enough bookings to fill a coach or how do they cope with extra demand?

bk

Victor wrote: »

NTA had previously cracked down on this for all operators, restricting the number of extra services that could be provided off-timetable.

Why would they do that!! If the demand is there, fill it. It is a sign of success of the NTA's policy, not something to be stopped!

soundman45 wrote: »

Aircoach now running direct to airport on the 1/2/3am services. I think they will still dominate on the Cork - Dublin route as they seem much more flexible to customer demands for example when I'm in Cork I've never seen Go Be put on extra busses. Do they just take enough bookings to fill a coach or how do they cope with extra demand?

I've seen them just turn away walkup's and tell them try the next bus in two hours!

Definitely always book online with them. Though that isn't too harsh as you can book online just one hour in advance which is more flexible then Aircoach.

BTW no sign anywhere of these new direct departures.

devnull

Victor wrote: »

NTA had previously cracked down on this for all operators, restricting the number of extra services that could be provided off-timetable.

As long as they are departing the same time as the timetabled service, and are not stopping off at any stops which are not on the timetabled service, they are considered auxiliary departures, rather than off timetable departures.

What is not allowed is to operate a bus at a time that is not listed on the timetable or to call at points which are not indicated on the timetable for that particular service, or change the order in which the stops are called at.

soundman45 wrote: »

Aircoach now running direct to airport on the 1/2/3am services. I think they will still dominate on the Cork - Dublin route as they seem much more flexible to customer demands for example when I'm in Cork I've never seen Go Be put on extra busses. Do they just take enough bookings to fill a coach or how do they cope with extra demand?

Booking engine is showing the following as now being Cork - Airport - Dublin
1.00am
2.00am (was that anyway)
3.00am

There may be more, and also similar in the other direction, you'll have to keep selecting times in the booking engine and see what the arrival time comes out as to work it out, as it seems Aircoach have not updated their website yet.

bk wrote: »

I've seen them just turn away walkup's and tell them try the next bus in two hours!

Definitely always book online with them. Though that isn't too harsh as you can book online just one hour in advance which is more flexible then Aircoach

Sure but closing bookings earlier is the very reason that Aircoach can adequately plan for extra capacity if needed since they have far more idea of the numbers travelling with enough time to arrange capacity if necessary.

devnull

According to the Aircoach tracker, the 07:30 service from Cork went direct to Dublin Airport, the same as the GoBe one at the same time.

That very much isn't indicated on the timetable....

soundman45

devnull wrote: »

According to the Aircoach tracker, the 07:30 service from Cork went direct to Dublin Airport, the same as the GoBe one at the same time.

That very much isn't indicated on the timetable....

It does happen occasionally that there would just not be any passengers on a trip going into dublin city so that leaves driver free to go direct to airport.

devnull

soundman45 wrote: »

It does happen occasionally that there would just not be any passengers on a trip going into dublin city so that leaves driver free to go direct to airport.

Maybe that was the case but it does strike me odd, especially when GoBe had a service going direct to Dublin Airport, at the same time.

Quite a few are doing it according to the tracker, going to the airport first.

Victor

bk wrote: »

Why would they do that!! If the demand is there, fill it. It is a sign of success of the NTA's policy, not something to be stopped!

devnull wrote: »

As long as they are departing the same time as the timetabled service, and are not stopping off at any stops which are not on the timetabled service, they are considered auxiliary departures, rather than off timetable departures.

What is not allowed is to operate a bus at a time that is not listed on the timetable or to call at points which are not indicated on the timetable for that particular service, or change the order in which the stops are called at.

Pardon me using the wrong term. It is the auxiliary departures which are / were being limited to something like 25% of timetabled departures.

Licences specify timetables. Licences are designed to provide a balance between operators (although first come first served is still important). Operating outside the licence causes unfair competition and undermines the ability of others operators to make a profit, thereby causing operators to withdraw services. Overall this becomes disruptive to the service provided to passengers.

There is also the matter of what any particular stop location can handle.

devnull

Victor wrote: »

Pardon me using the wrong term. It is the auxiliary departures which are / were being limited to something like 25% of timetabled departures.

There is nothing in the NTA's own guidelines which underpin this 25% figure:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Guidelines-for-the-licensing-of-bus-passenger-services.pdf

Auxiliary departures are permissible where the licence holder determines on any given day that there is additional demand for the deployment of such departures, which could not have been reasonably anticipated.

An auxiliary service departure on a licensed route departs as close to the timetabled departure as safe and operationally possible, serves all or some points of the route and terminates on that route. The auxiliary departure is deployed for the purposes of accommodating unanticipated additional demand for a scheduled departure on that route.

The approval of the Authority is not required in respect of the deployment of an auxiliary departure that operates for not more than 3 weeks, consecutively or otherwise, within a period of not more than 3 months from the first deployment of the auxiliary services. Auxiliary departures, as described above, are only permissible if the licence holder informs the Authority of the operation of the departure within 5 working days of the first operation of the auxiliary departure and that the departure otherwise complies with the licence.

Any non-scheduled departure on a route that is referred to in any schedule or timetable published or displayed in any format by the licence holder or any other operator which provides services on a subcontracting basis to the licence holder in respect of the route in question cannot be regarded as being an auxiliary departure.

As well there is also the debate as to whether an additional bus operating at exactly the same time due as the timetabled bus due to predicted demand is considered as an auxiliary departure or simply adding extra capacity to a timetabled departure.

bk

Victor the extra coaches I've seen operate out of Cork fall under the "auxiliary" departures from what I've seen.

An extra coach or two that leave at the same time (or within max 5 minutes) as the main scheduled coach and either run the exact same route as the scheduled coach (I've seen them follow one another pretty much back to back all the way to Dublin) or one skips Dublin City and goes straight to the airport.

In fairness to them I've never seen them leave at totally unscheduled times or stop at anywhere but their stops.

I see nothing wrong with this and see no reason why they shouldn't be able to lay on 20 coaches at the same time if the demand was there. Surely it is a good indication of lots of people taking public transport.

Of course I'd be completely against aggressive competition with them laying on extra coaches at the same time as their competitor. And that those lead to those couple of x:30 departures that Aircoach started a few years ago during the BE strike at the same time as some GoBE departures. That one is just weird.

Of course you maybe could argue if things are so busy, then you could argue that the NTA should issue a third of even fourth license. Leave other companies pick up the slack. Would have the advantage of more competition on the route and high frequencies of a coach every 15 minutes rather then every 30. It would be great to see Citylink on this route. The Cork route is still only ok and could do with a bit more competition and quality IMO.

I suspect Cork is now busy enough to have different services aimed at different markets. Cheap service for students and perhaps a more luxurious service for others (less seats, more legroom, etc.).

Of course the question of bus stop capacity is another story. The quays on Cork are a disaster and not at all suitable and mark my words their will be a serious accident there some day. Cork badly needs a dedicated private bus station similar to Galway.

Though now that I think of it, a third or fourth operator operating at x:15 and x:45 would help reduce the pressure on those stops due to more staggered departures. But it would only be a temporary solution IMO.

devnull

Third or fourth operator would not be a good thing - having too much competition would work against a consumer and would make it more unlikely that the least profitable journeys are going to be run.

Then rather than having two operators with 15-20 services each you might end up with 3 or 4 operators with 10 journeys each, which actually reduce options for travel when purchasing return tickets and will push the price up.

We need competition, but too much is not good either

In relation to GoBe and Aircoach head to head departures, the licensing guidelines state that there should be 30 minutes time separation from that of competing services.

However there is a clause that allows this to be overidden

An example of circumstances when the operation of separation times would not be in the public interest could be periods of peak demand, such as, Friday and Sunday evenings, Monday morning and bank holiday weekends.

Such cases will be considered on individual merits and separation of times may be adjusted in order to serve the interests of public transport use.

If Aircoach could demonstrate that the times concerned were at peak times for them, and they had a large number of passengers on the 6am, 7am and 8am coaches, then I assume this is how they got the times granted.

bk

devnull wrote: »

Sure but closing bookings earlier is the very reason that Aircoach can adequately plan for extra capacity if needed since they have far more idea of the numbers travelling with enough time to arrange capacity if necessary.

But really at this stage Aircoach should have more then enough historical data to model a good guesstimate for most departures.

They most already model this for the walk up fares. I assume it is something like they know 80% book online and 20% walk-up and work accordingly on that.

All they would need to do is adjust this model to something like:
- 70% online 24 hours before
- 10% in the last 24 hours
- 20% walk-up

and order up extra coaches based on that sort of modelling.

I don't think there should be any big unexpected surprises, they know what concerts, etc. are coming up and those people tend to book far in advance anyway. They should still be able to predict pretty accurately a few hours in advance.

I would have agreed with this excuse when they first started up. But it is really weak now years later and I don't buy it any more. I feel it is more that they just couldn't be bothered and lack competition on the route.

An auxiliary service departure on a licensed route departs as close to the timetabled departure as safe and operationally possible, serves all or some points of the route and terminates on that route. The auxiliary departure is deployed for the purposes of accommodating unanticipated additional demand for a scheduled departure on that route.

In fairness that sounds exactly like Aircoaches extra services.

The approval of the Authority is not required in respect of the deployment of an auxiliary departure that operates for not more than 3 weeks, consecutively or otherwise, within a period of not more than 3 months from the first deployment of the auxiliary services. Auxiliary departures, as described above, are only permissible if the licence holder informs the Authority of the operation of the departure within 5 working days of the first operation of the auxiliary departure and that the departure otherwise complies with the licence.

Well I find it very hard to believe Aircoach aren't falling fowl of this. This services seem to operate year round for years now! These auxilaries are certinly running far longer then just 3 months!

devnull wrote: »

As well there is also the debate as to whether an additional bus operating at exactly the same time due as the timetabled bus due to predicted demand is considered as an auxiliary departure or simply adding extra capacity to a timetabled departure.

Perhaps this is it and I would agree with that.

devnull wrote: »

Third or fourth operator would not be a good thing - having too much competition would work against a consumer and would make it more unlikely that the least profitable journeys are going to be run.

I'm not at all sure I agree with this. If these routes continue to get busier and busier like I suspect they will, then I think there can be plenty of room for extra companies. If you go to Poland or Brazil, you see multiple private companies operate every 5 to 10 minutes. And as I mentioed you see different types of services aimed at different markets.

I also think that the Cork route hasn't matured as well as it could because of how weak GoBE's service and competition has been, allowing Aircoach to be a bit complacent about it all. I feel the route could certainly be improved with a quality third operator to throw a bit of compeition and energy into the market.

devnull wrote: »

In relation to GoBe and Aircoach head to head departures, the licensing guidelines state that there should be 30 minutes time separation from that of competing services.

However there is a clause that allows this to be overidden


If Aircoach could demonstrate that the times concerned were at peak times for them, and they had a large number of passengers on the 6am, 7am and 8am coaches, then I assume this is how they got the times granted.

Well these operate every day, not just weekends/bank holiday Mondays. I mean if this is the excuse, GoBe could just say the same and lay on coaches at Aircoaches on the hour time, since clearly there is so much demand with Airocach needing auxiliaries.

Then we just end up with a coach war like we have on the Belfast route.

Aircoach might be technically within the rules here, but it does feel it goes against the moral of the idea on how these licenses operate and really isn't much better then what DC have been doing to Belfast.

devnull

But really at this stage Aircoach should have more then enough historical data to model a good guesstimate for most departures.

Operationally what Aircoach are doing is pretty sound and allows for the most passenger numbers possible to be carried and less chance of being turned away. Note that there generally is no upper limit on the number of people who can book on an Aircoach service, the fact they close bookings off early means however many people book, they can cater for them.

The GoBus system is quite limited. Yes you can book up to an hour or so before the departure, but once the coach is full, it's full. This means that patrons can be turned away because the coach is full, even when trying to book a few days in advance, because the magic number has been reached. It does work well for off-peak services though that normally are quite empty.

The good thing about Aircoach is I know that if I book ahead of 5pm the day before I travel I will be able to travel on whatever service I want to because it won't refuse bookings. With GoBus if I book the same day, one day ahead or a week ahead, there is the potential that I could be turned away because the coach has no space, which creates a real FOMO fear which almost creates an argument for booking GoBe even further in advance than Aircoach.

Neither model is perfect and both companies are using a trade off:
- GoBe limit ticket sales to be able to be more flexible on how far in advance tickets can be bought
- Aircoach limit how far in advance tickets can be purchased to be more flexible on ticket sales.

Unfortunately if you neither cap your ticket sales per bus or have a cut off, you're going to be turning passengers away on a very regular basis and it will create for very poor PR.

bk wrote: »

Well these operate every day, not just weekends/bank holiday Mondays. I mean if this is the excuse

Peak demand doesn't necessary have to be a day - it can be argued I would say that peak demand for such a route would be more dependent on time of day and not whatever day of the week it was.

GoBe could just say the same and lay on coaches at Aircoaches on the hour time.[/quote

I would say GoBe would have to fill all criteria below to get that:
a) Have a coach half an hour before Aircoach
b) Have a coach half an hour after Aircoach
c) Be able to demonstrate that both of these are full on an ongoing basis.

If they can show that they are leaving people behind or that they have had to run extra vehicles for either a) or b) to cater for demand, that would no doubt help their case.

Aircoach might be technically within the rules here, but it does feel it goes against the moral of the idea on how these licenses operate and really isn't much better then what DC have been doing to Belfast.

There's a world of difference between this and Dublin Coach.

Aircoach are running the services on the half an hour because the services half an hour before and half an hour after them are full and have been able to convince the NTA that providing extra capacity would be in the interests of the passengers in general. If they were not filling those vehicles, they would not have got the rights for the services that are head to head. They are getting it I believe because of passenger numbers on their services either side.

With Dublin Coach, they didn't start with a time separated service. They started running head to head from day one and that would not be possible if the route was run under NTA guidelines, since the initial license would only be given with time separation, and only if they could demonstrate to the NTA that they had services half an hour before and half an hour after the competition that were full, would the NTA consider allowing them something similar to Aircoach.

bk

devnull wrote: »

Operationally what Aircoach are doing is pretty sound and allows for the most passenger numbers possible to be carried and less chance of being turned away. Note that there generally is no upper limit on the number of people who can book on an Aircoach service, the fact they close bookings off early means however many people book, they can cater for them.

I honestly can't see any reason why Aircoach couldn't introduce a hybrid system that would allow the best of both worlds.

- Unlimited online ticket sales up to 5pm
- Limited online ticket sales from 5pm to 1 hour in advance, up to the number of seats left on the number of coaches they have selected to put on for that journey. Can even incorporate a certain number of walk on seats in that number if they wanted.

At this stage it is simply poor performance from Aircoach IMO

devnull wrote: »

The GoBus system is quite limited. Yes you can book up to an hour or so before the departure, but once the coach is full, it's full. This means that patrons can be turned away because the coach is full, even when trying to book a few days in advance, because the magic number has been reached. It does work well for off-peak services though that normally are quite empty.

I've been taking GoBE the last 5 years and I've never not been able to book on any departure, even booking regularly one hour in advance.

devnull wrote: »

The good thing about Aircoach is I know that if I book ahead of 5pm the day before I travel I will be able to travel on whatever service I want to because it won't refuse bookings. With GoBus if I book the same day, one day ahead or a week ahead, there is the potential that I could be turned away because the coach has no space, which creates a real FOMO fear which almost creates an argument for booking GoBe even further in advance than Aircoach.

Again, I've never once seen that happen on GoBe. I almost exclusively travel GoBE to Cork now and I usually book the same day and usually only an hour or two in advance. I've never been turned away. Far more flexible and pleasant then Aircoach, which is why I've almost exclusively switched over to GoBE.

devnull wrote: »

Neither model is perfect and both companies are using a trade off:
- GoBe limit ticket sales to be able to be more flexible on how far in advance tickets can be bought
- Aircoach limit how far in advance tickets can be purchased to be more flexible on ticket sales.

Unfortunately if you neither cap your ticket sales per bus or have a cut off, you're going to be turning passengers away on a very regular basis and it will create for very poor PR.

But Aircoach could do better, they could move to a hybrid system like mentioned above. Best of both worlds.

devnull wrote: »

There's a world of difference between this and Dublin Coach.

Aircoach are running the services on the half an hour because the services half an hour before and half an hour after them are full and have been able to convince the NTA that providing extra capacity would be in the interests of the passengers in general. If they were not filling those vehicles, they would not have got the rights for the services that are head to head. They are getting it I believe because of passenger numbers on their services either side.

With Dublin Coach, they didn't start with a time separated service. They started running head to head from day one and that would not be possible if the route was run under NTA guidelines, since the initial license would only be given with time separation, and only if they could demonstrate to the NTA that they had services half an hour before and half an hour after the competition that were full, would the NTA consider allowing them something similar to Aircoach.

Really I don't see much difference. They are operating at the exactly the same time as GoBE and thus stealing their customers. As I said they may well technically be within the rules, but they are going against the idea behind these rules. We might as well rip up the licenses and leave unfettered competition like to Belfast if Aircoach are just going to start muscling in on other operators routes.

soundman45

Aircoach busses are constantly booked out and you want them to take bookings up to 1 hour before departure and then what? Wave a magic wand and supply a back up coach in an hour, from what I see Aircoach do a good job if they had a coach overbooked they get a 2nd coach. The back up goes full direct to airport and the service bus runs as per schedule with maybe 5 passengers on board where as Go Be stop taking bookings leaving want to be passengers stuck and they in turn end up on aircoach. Aircoach are dominant on the Cork - Dublin route for a good reason they have huge capacity and cater for customers needs. Last Sunday with cork limerick in croke park how much extra capacity did Go Be put on???

bk

soundman45 wrote: »

Aircoach busses are constantly booked out and you want them to take bookings up to 1 hour before departure and then what? Wave a magic wand and supply a back up coach in an hour, from what I see Aircoach do a good job if they had a coach overbooked they get a 2nd coach. The back up goes full direct to airport and the service bus runs as per schedule with maybe 5 passengers on board where as Go Be stop taking bookings leaving want to be passengers stuck and they in turn end up on aircoach. Aircoach are dominant on the Cork - Dublin route for a good reason they have huge capacity and cater for customers needs. Last Sunday with cork limerick in croke park how much extra capacity did Go Be put on???

So, did you even read what I posted?!

I pointed out a hybrid system that would solve this problem.

- Unlimited bookings until 5pm like at the moment, Aircoach can then arrange for extra buses if needed.
- Continue to allow for bookings after that up to the number of seats still free on the number of coaches available for that time.

Pretty simple really, I'm not sure why that is hard to understand?

GoBE should also implement the same sort of system. That would also allow them to put extra coaches on for events like Croke Park, etc. Actually there is nothing to say they didn't anyway. Knowing how busy that day was, there is nothing to say that GoBE didn't put on extra coaches and simply increased the number of seats to book online from 50 to 100, etc.

soundman45

bk wrote: »

So, did you even read what I posted?!

I pointed out a hybrid system that would solve this problem.

- Unlimited bookings until 5pm like at the moment, Aircoach can then arrange for extra buses if needed.
- Continue to allow for bookings after that up to the number of seats still free on the number of coaches available for that time.

Pretty simple really, I'm not sure why that is hard to understand?

GoBE should also implement the same sort of system. That would also allow them to put extra coaches on for events like Croke Park, etc. Actually there is nothing to say they didn't anyway. Knowing how busy that day was, there is nothing to say that GoBE didn't put on extra coaches and simply increased the number of seats to book online from 50 to 100, etc.

Pretty simple???
So who do you ring to say I need a coach and driver in an hour because it's busy?
Private operators don't have busses sitting idle it's that simple it takes advance notice to arrange.

Yggr of Asgard

So today I used the new 1600 airport to cork direct service (i.e. the one that now starts in town and goes to the airport to go to Cork).

The price for a single journey has been raised by 1€ to 19€ but if booked with a return journey that leg has been lowered by 1€ to 9€ so that the end result is still 28€ for a return journey.

We left the airport 15 minutes late as the bus only arrived at 1600 and the driver has problems loading the webpage which shows him the passengers.

We arrived at 1924 in Cork after there was a lot of traffic on the M50 and then M8 at points, however giving that previously it would have been nearer to 2000 to arrive the new routing was nice for me.

bk

soundman45 wrote: »

Pretty simple???
So who do you ring to say I need a coach and driver in an hour because it's busy?
Private operators don't have busses sitting idle it's that simple it takes advance notice to arrange.

Again, clearly not reading what I'm saying. Operate a hybrid model:

- Until 5pm the day before, allow unlimited bookings (or up to whatever number they feel comfortable that they can easily get extra coaches for with 24 hour notice). Now lets say you now have 75 bookings, they call around to the various contractors to get a spare coach. They now have 100 seats available for that time between two coaches, with 25 seats spare (lets say 50 seats per coach to keep the example simple, I know it differs between coaches).

- After 5pm and up until an hour before departure, allow those 25 seats to be reserved online. Once those 25 are gone, close the bookings online then (obviously this can all happen automatically).

Pretty simple and the best of both worlds with maximum flexibility. It is a little of the current Aircoach model and a little of the current GoBE model.

devnull

Certainly I think that the Aircoach system can be improved but operational and financial concerns will come in and this is why you see few bus operators will operate the hybrid system that you propose, if it was so simple everyone would be doing it but yet none of the big operators do.

I think that GoBe have great customer service, great engagement on social media though and they are far better with this side of thing and always have been than Aircoach. Don't get me wrong Aircoach are ahead of where they were in 2012 as far as that is concerned but GoBe still far better and I think that is pretty plain for everyone to see!

Aircoach recently lost what some regard as one of the best commercial and operational minds in the industry. They've gained someone with operational experience but new ideas and more focused on technological change and the customer experience even if they don't have the commercial knowledge of who they replaced (hence why they are recruiting a commercial manager).

In the last few months they've made their website mobile friendly, launched a coach tracker which is based on the leading coach tracking software in the UK, rolled out new ticket machines, new on-board tracking devices and had software custom designed for the first multi-currency contactless system which probably wasn't cheap.

According to this interview as well, they are still very much in the middle of change so it's possible you'll see a little more flexibility with ticketing once it's complete

The company expects to launch a new mobile ticketing service by the end of December, after which customers who use Aircoach several times a year will be able to buy tickets in bulk and download them to their phones.

Next month, it will roll out a ‘colleague app’ that serves as a kind of staff notice board. Workers will eventually be able to use the app to swap shifts with each other.

The article also mentions that we're going to see a new fleet of coaches from Aircoach, so hopefully the renewed competition from GoBe can help to keep both operators on their toes, since I don't think it's unfair to say that until quite recently, Aircoach had somewhat rested on their laurels and came a little bit complacent with their dominance of the route which was reflected in the lower spec vehicles etc.

GoBe are executing their strategy for the new services well at the moment though, they've not got into the self yield destroying tactics that happened 6 years ago where they cut the price too much and Aircoach easily saw them off and they had to retreat with their tail between their legs. Plus as said before, Aircoach are vulnerable right now, without the commercial experience they had in the past and the fact the person who knows their business inside out for the last decade is now in the BE/GoBe camp.

If GoBe were ever going to make serious inroads into the market share of Aircoach, now is the best chance in the last few years to do it and those chances don't come around very often, so when presented with them you need to take them.

mickmmc

There was a caller on Red FM complaining about GOBE loading and unloading passengers on the road at Patrick's Quay. The problem is that the tour coaches park on the space designated for GOBE.

It is not really sustainable long term for GOBE to loading and unloading on the road at Patrick's Quay at certain times of the day.

Aircoach have a strong brand and good reputation built up on the Cork route. They will continue to be the dominant player on that route.

bk

devnull wrote: »

The article also mentions that we're going to see a new fleet of coaches from Aircoach, so hopefully the renewed competition from GoBe can help to keep both operators on their toes, since I don't think it's unfair to say that until quite recently, Aircoach had somewhat rested on their laurels and came a little bit complacent with their dominance of the route which was reflected in the lower spec vehicles etc.

Oh, that is interesting. Any rumours on what they might be? Just newer Panthers or perhaps something a bit higher spec?

I don't think the panthers are a bad coach, but if GoBE are upping their game, then perhaps something a little better speced would keep them in front.

I was just reading about the Plaxton Elite-i overdecker the other day, sounds like a very nice coach, would be nice to see it here.

devnull wrote: »

GoBe are executing their strategy for the new services well at the moment though, they've not got into the self yield destroying tactics that happened 6 years ago where they cut the price too much and Aircoach easily saw them off and they had to retreat with their tail between their legs. Plus as said before, Aircoach are vulnerable right now, without the commercial experience they had in the past and the fact the person who knows their business inside out for the last decade is now in the BE/GoBe camp.

It can be hard to tell from the outside, but they do feel a bit busier since they moved out of the bus stations. Still far off full or up to Aircoach yet.

To be honest, they will need to do a lot more to compete with Aircoach. The Volvo's seem to be only ok too, nothing mind blowing, but you can certainly tell they are hand me downs from the Galway fleet. A few years older and a bit rough around the edges. Power plugs rarely work, etc. Nothing like Dublin Coaches maintenance issues, but just seems a bit sloppy if they intend to compete on such a busy route.

Don't get me wrong, still much better then BE and I still take them more often then not due to the more flexible booking options. But the Cork route still fells a bit immature, both Aircoach and GoBE.

mickmmc wrote: »

There was a caller on Red FM complaining about GOBE loading and unloading passengers on the road at Patrick's Quay. The problem is that the tour coaches park on the space designated for GOBE.

It is not really sustainable long term for GOBE to loading and unloading on the road at Patrick's Quay at certain times of the day.

Yes, I experienced exactly that this weekend, both arriving and leaving. Both times the coach had to stop on the outside road to load/unload due to tour coaches parked in their spot! Definitely not good.

The issue is due to the works for the new bridge at the Quay, some of the tour coach parking bays have been closed for the building work and rather then parking over on their newly designated street, then are just parking in the GoBE spots!

BTW it wasn't me on Red FM complaining!

ayux4rj6zql2ph

mickmmc wrote: »

There was a caller on Red FM complaining about GOBE loading and unloading passengers on the road at Patrick's Quay. The problem is that the tour coaches park on the space designated for GOBE.

It is not really sustainable long term for GOBE to loading and unloading on the road at Patrick's Quay at certain times of the day.

Aircoach have a strong brand and good reputation built up on the Cork route. They will continue to be the dominant player on that route.

Coaches parking/loading/unloading on the road is nothing usual along there.

What should probably be done is to make the whole left side of that quay coach parking only, as roughly the lower half of it has cars,but then again there will probably be calls for a cycle lane there as well.

Yggr of Asgard

So after the August price increase they now have slashed the one way down to 9.95 with no more discount for booking a return.

9.95 is significantly lower than aircoach and it looks like that price is also available for same day booking.

Lets see if that drives people onto their services because giving how empty they were the last couple of weeks I was wondering how long they could keep this up.

Yggr of Asgard

This 9.95€ price seems to drive people onto the service, only my last 3 trips the bus was packed while usualy it would have been empty.

It also looks like Aircoach now charged 10€ if you limit the trip between city and city (airport is 17€).

Gobe does not charge more from/to the airport but aircoach takes 7 more.

bk

It is a little weird, the ad says this is only a limited deal until 30th of November, but may be extended. But then further down on the website they have the old prices.

Perhaps a test to see if this will drive up numbers and of it does they will make this the permanent fare.

GoBE have always been all over the shop with fares, schedules, ticketing. Aircoach have been much more consistent.

But good to see a bit of competition and how it can keep prices down. Hopefully it won't lead to a price war, but a bit more balance between Aircoach and GoBE loadings would be healthy.

devnull

bk wrote: »

It is a little weird, the ad says this is only a limited deal until 30th of November, but may be extended. But then further down on the website they have the old prices.

Perhaps a test to see if this will drive up numbers and of it does they will make this the permanent fare.

GoBE have always been all over the shop with fares, schedules, ticketing. Aircoach have been much more consistent.

But good to see a bit of competition and how it can keep prices down. Hopefully it won't lead to a price war, but a bit more balance between Aircoach and GoBE loadings would be healthy.

Aircoach are still using demand based pricing on their services, there isn't a flat €10 fare that has been claimed earlier on the thread, as a test by checking out a few dates have shown on their website.

The lack of reaction from Aircoach is poor commercial decision making - they fought this off last time all those years ago by undercutting GoBe by €1 which made them have to retreat heavily and raise prices as not only did GoBe not attract that many more customers, they were getting less from their existing patrons, that made GoBe perform even worse which made the services lose even more money.

As the market leader on this route a similar strategy to go to say €9.50 for as long as GoBe were charging €10 would have both retained customers and also harmed the yields of their competitor. This would have then forced GoBe into the same kind of retreat as before, but alas Aircoach no longer have one of the best commercial minds in the business at the helm and honestly it shows.

Aircoach have the volume to take anyone on in a proper price war on this corridor, but it seems management are asleep at the wheel and unfortunately the best days of Aircoach are behind them I would suspect on this route, especially based on the spec of new vehicles orders both providers have lined up for 2019,

There's no question that Jim Burke is another exceptional commercial mind - I stated around the time that Parker left Aircoach that they are now very vulnerable and I'd expect the new MD to get her commercial acumen tested pretty early on - that is certainly happening here. Burke didn't have the cards stacked in his favour last time around, but now it's a more favourable scenario and he's going to exploit it - that price I can guarantee you will not be changing anytime soon.

Yggr of Asgard

It looks like the 10€ Aircoach is advertised in their fare section but with the disclaimer of limited availability while gobe is all availability even same day.

Aircoach also is using one of the very old white buses now which is more Dublin coach experience.

Gobe seams to use newer models these days with most of them from. Kavanagh if the WiFi name is to be trusted.

Now if only there would be more airport direct services.

devnull

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

It looks like the 10€ Aircoach is advertised in their fare section but with the disclaimer of limited availability while gobe is all availability even same day.

Aircoach has been like that for years.

Aircoach also is using one of the very old white buses now which is more Dublin coach experience.

The oldest coaches that Aircoach use on the Cork route are from 2014, there is one coach from 2005 that is used as a relief vehicle to cover for breakdowns or delays, but it's maintained far higher standard than vehicles at Dublin Coach, that is for sure. Everything other than minor work is contracted out to well respected third party maintenance firms and the vehicle manufacturers as part of the contract to acquire such vehicles rather than being done in house to save a few quid, like Dublin Coach.

Gobe seams to use newer models these days with most of them from. Kavanagh if the WiFi name is to be trusted.

GoBe is a mix between Bernard Kavanagh vehicles and directly operated services these days. Initially it was fully contracted out to Bernard Kavanagh.

Old diesel

bk wrote: »

Oh, that is interesting. Any rumours on what they might be? Just newer Panthers or perhaps something a bit higher spec?

I don't think the panthers are a bad coach, but if GoBE are upping their game, then perhaps something a little better speced would keep them in front.

I was just reading about the Plaxton Elite-i overdecker the other day, sounds like a very nice coach, would be nice to see it here.



It can be hard to tell from the outside, but they do feel a bit busier since they moved out of the bus stations. Still far off full or up to Aircoach yet.

To be honest, they will need to do a lot more to compete with Aircoach. The Volvo's seem to be only ok too, nothing mind blowing, but you can certainly tell they are hand me downs from the Galway fleet. A few years older and a bit rough around the edges. Power plugs rarely work, etc. Nothing like Dublin Coaches maintenance issues, but just seems a bit sloppy if they intend to compete on such a busy route.

Don't get me wrong, still much better then BE and I still take them more often then not due to the more flexible booking options. But the Cork route still fells a bit immature, both Aircoach and GoBE.



Yes, I experienced exactly that this weekend, both arriving and leaving. Both times the coach had to stop on the outside road to load/unload due to tour coaches parked in their spot! Definitely not good.

The issue is due to the works for the new bridge at the Quay, some of the tour coach parking bays have been closed for the building work and rather then parking over on their newly designated street, then are just parking in the GoBE spots!

BTW it wasn't me on Red FM complaining!

The thing about a Panther vs say a Vanhool/Jonckheere or even higher spec Plaxtons is.....

Does the "normal" passenger actually notice or care once they can get "a cheap ticket".

bk

Old diesel wrote: »

The thing about a Panther vs say a Vanhool/Jonckheere or even higher spec Plaxtons is.....

Does the "normal" passenger actually notice or care once they can get "a cheap ticket".

Given the choice between two operators on the same route, then I'd say yes.

For instance, going to Galway I'd always choose Citylink over GoBus due to them using much nicer Vanhool coaches and I've others around Galway say the same.

I'd even happily pay an extra euro or two return for a better experience. After all they are all so cheap compared to rail anyway. For the past few years I've been paying the little extra to take GoBE as they are quieter then Aircoach and thus more likely to a seat to myself and the last minute online booking facility.

Obviously them being quiet isn't good for them, but I take advantage of it and I know other friends doing the same. Of course you wouldn't want to take this too far, I wouldn't pay €5 or more return more.

You are right that "normal" passengers probably don't know the different coach brands, etc. But for people going Cork to Dublin regularly, they probably try both operators and if one seems significantly more comfortable (better padded seats, more legroom, less noisy, power at seats, etc.), then I'd say they would be more likely to take them again.

BTW I don't rate GoBE's Volvo coaches, they aren't anything special IMO and maintenance seems only ok too. I've seen plenty only 4 - 5 years old looking rough inside.

devnull wrote:

especially based on the spec of new vehicles orders both providers have lined up for 2019,

What is the spec? I hadn't heard?

markpb

Old diesel wrote: »

The thing about a Panther vs say a Vanhool/Jonckheere or even higher spec Plaxtons is.....

Does the "normal" passenger actually notice or care once they can get "a cheap ticket".

Occasional passengers might not but repeat passengers are more likely to want to be comfortable, especially if there's a relatively small price difference.

Old diesel

bk wrote: »

Given the choice between two operators on the same route, then I'd say yes.

For instance, going to Galway I'd always choose Citylink over GoBus due to them using much nicer Vanhool coaches and I've others around Galway say the same.

I'd even happily pay an extra euro or two return for a better experience. After all they are all so cheap compared to rail anyway. For the past few years I've been paying the little extra to take GoBE as they are quieter then Aircoach and thus more likely to a seat to myself and the last minute online booking facility.

Obviously them being quiet isn't good for them, but I take advantage of it and I know other friends doing the same. Of course you wouldn't want to take this too far, I wouldn't pay €5 or more return more.

You are right that "normal" passengers probably don't know the different coach brands, etc. But for people going Cork to Dublin regularly, they probably try both operators and if one seems significantly more comfortable (better padded seats, more legroom, less noisy, power at seats, etc.), then I'd say they would be more likely to take them again.

BTW I don't rate GoBE's Volvo coaches, they aren't anything special IMO and maintenance seems only ok too. I've seen plenty only 4 - 5 years old looking rough inside.



What is the spec? I hadn't heard?

I'd have that exact mindset myself - but was thinking that my personal mindset was heavily influenced by being into vehicles of various kinds for as long as I can remember.

I can still remember the 2006 Vanhool that gave me a fabulous journey when Irish Rail had bus transfers on the go. That coach turned the negative of having to get off the train early into an actual positive.

That's not really normal though - I've literally no idea what it's like to sit in a vehicle and pay absolutely no attention to what it's like.

bk

Old diesel wrote: »

I'd have that exact mindset myself - but was thinking that my personal mindset was heavily influenced by being into vehicles of various kinds for as long as I can remember.

I can still remember the 2006 Vanhool that gave me a fabulous journey when Irish Rail had bus transfers on the go. That coach turned the negative of having to get off the train early into an actual positive.

That's not really normal though - I've literally no idea what it's like to sit in a vehicle and pay absolutely no attention to what it's like.

Yep, I totally get you and it is a good question.

You are right that most irregular users probably don't care. But as Mark says, I think the frequent users certainly would. The students and young professionals going up and down every weekend (for College, etc.), I'm certain they would try both services and go with the one that felt like a better experience to them.

And those sort of users are the bread and butter of these type of services.

They won't know the details of the coach, but they may well get a feeling about one being more comfortable, or leg room, etc.

I listen to my better half on this. When we get on a coach, she will sometimes comment (without prompting) that this is nice or other times, that it is uncomfortable/dirty/cramped. People do notice things like that.

Yggr of Asgard

And new prices again online, cheaper than before.

15€ one way between Cork and Dublin Airport with return leg for only 10€.

That is 3€ cheaper than before.

Still with the coaches mostly empty (at least when I go) it's begs the question how long they are going to keep this running.

bk

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

And new prices again online, cheaper than before.

15€ one way between Cork and Dublin Airport with return leg for only 10€.

That is 3€ cheaper than before.

Still with the coaches mostly empty (at least when I go) it's begs the question how long they are going to keep this running.

They seem to be much busier these days. Been a few times I've been on it recently now and either almost completely full or very close to it. I wouldn't say Aircoach levels, but definitely much busier.

Also vehicles seem to be newer, cleaner and better maintained now and hardly ever any higher ins from what I can see, like you would see a lot of in the past.

Also they have a new office/waiting room now in Cork and have just announced a new route to Ballina.

I'd say all signs that things are going better at the moment. I'd feel a lot less worried about them today then I would have 5 years ago.

If anything I feel they are reducing prices like this to gain more marketshare, given that Aircoach seem weaker at the moment under new management.