Unfair competition - application for a semi state job

beer enigma

Just looking for a pointer here.

I was approached by an agency suggesting I apply for a senior role being recruited for by a state funded body. I was made aware than an internal candidate had also applied (I was external) and that under the rules if an internal candidate had applied they opened it up to external applicants too.

Initial question was that I didn't want to make up the numbers, but was assured no, they were very interested in my CV.

Went through the process, 1st interview, 2nd interview (which I flew back early from a work meeting in Lisbon for). Two weeks later i got a call saying sorry the internal candidate had got the role.

Firstly, i was surprised they confirmed the internal had got it, but then my surprise when i checked my Linkedin to find the internal candidate had viewed my profile BEFORE my second interview.

I asked for feedback as to how this could happen, but getting a brick wall from the agency and the state body.

My question is, who regulates state body recruitment ? - I'm not looking to get the job, more that this is raised. surely under Data Protection my details should not have been passed across the the other candidate, let alone under fair competition

TheBlock

beer enigma wrote: »

Just looking for a pointer here.

I was approached by an agency suggesting I apply for a senior role being recruited for by a state funded body. I was made aware than an internal candidate had also applied (I was external) and that under the rules if an internal candidate had applied they opened it up to external applicants too.

Initial question was that I didn't want to make up the numbers, but was assured no, they were very interested in my CV.

Went through the process, 1st interview, 2nd interview (which I flew back early from a work meeting in Lisbon for). Two weeks later i got a call saying sorry the internal candidate had got the role.

Firstly, i was surprised they confirmed the internal had got it, but then my surprise when i checked my Linkedin to find the internal candidate had viewed my profile BEFORE my second interview.

I asked for feedback as to how this could happen, but getting a brick wall from the agency and the state body.

My question is, who regulates state body recruitment ? - I'm not looking to get the job, more that this is raised. surely under Data Protection my details should not have been passed across the the other candidate, let alone under fair competition

I would not be letting this one go. This is in no way professional and someone has screwed the pooch here. Write to the person that interviewed you and demand a response as to how this could have happened. I'd be letting them know if you don't receive a satisfactory explanation you will be taking this further.

Jack Moore

beer enigma wrote: »

Just looking for a pointer here.

I was approached by an agency suggesting I apply for a senior role being recruited for by a state funded body. I was made aware than an internal candidate had also applied (I was external) and that under the rules if an internal candidate had applied they opened it up to external applicants too.

Initial question was that I didn't want to make up the numbers, but was assured no, they were very interested in my CV.

Went through the process, 1st interview, 2nd interview (which I flew back early from a work meeting in Lisbon for). Two weeks later i got a call saying sorry the internal candidate had got the role.

Firstly, i was surprised they confirmed the internal had got it, but then my surprise when i checked my Linkedin to find the internal candidate had viewed my profile BEFORE my second interview.

I asked for feedback as to how this could happen, but getting a brick wall from the agency and the state body.

My question is, who regulates state body recruitment ? - I'm not looking to get the job, more that this is raised. surely under Data Protection my details should not have been passed across the the other candidate, let alone under fair competition

How do you know who the other candidate was?

beer enigma

TheBlock wrote: »

I would not be letting this one go. This is in no way professional and someone has screwed the pooch here. Write to the person that interviewed you and demand a response as to how this could have happened. I'd be letting them know if you don't receive a satisfactory explanation you will be taking this further.

My first port was though the introducing agency, they came back and were obviously trying to get me to drop it by saying 'maybe the internal candidate 'saw' some paperwork !'.

I didn't buy that and they reluctantly went back and asked the question, next rebuttal was them saying maybe I was mistaken, to which i provided a dated screenshot withe the candidates access & photo.

I've gone back again and am now told the agency are meeting the body tomorrow and will report back. I'm not hopeful of getting anything, so I guess my question is who polices the state/semi state HR process.

Stanford

You have no proof that the HR Dept or anybody gave your details to the other candidate, anybody can post on LinkedIn if they have an account

beer enigma

Jack Moore wrote: »

How do you know who the other candidate was?

Her job title was 'interim manager' for a very specific role within the state company, which matched up to the exact wording on the Linkedin profile and the Agency have subsequently confirmed that she was indeed the internal candidate. There are only 20 employees in this body and one interim manager, so it was fairly easy

beer enigma

Stanford wrote: »

You have no proof that the HR Dept or anybody gave your details to the other candidate, anybody can post on LinkedIn if they have an account

Yes, but are you saying that out of 4 candidates for the role, the internal candidate visited my profile by accident ? - my profile was found by a search for my name (Linkedin confirmed that much) - she searched me out, so must have had my details prior to the 2nd interview

Stanford

Is there a senior manager within the body that you could complain to?

Stanford

beer enigma wrote: »

Yes, but are you saying that out of 4 candidates for the role, the internal candidate visited my profile by accident ? - my profile was found by a search for my name (Linkedin confirmed that much) - she searched me out, so must have had my details prior to the 2nd interview

I'm not saying it was an "accident", I'm trying to see the burden of proof you have to meet before suggesting anything sinsiter

dudara

You could submit a data access request under GDPR, asking to share which personal information they hold on you, how it is stored, who has access to it etc.

It doesn’t seem right that the internal candidate knew who you were, but maybe she was entitled to know under their internal structure.

beer enigma

Stanford wrote: »

Is there a senior manager within the body that you could complain to?

Its funded by a much larger state entity and controlled by a voluntary board. I was told that the head of the voluntary board was investigating and would hazard a guess that my next step is to HR of the parent entity, but I'm sure there must be a state body for these issues, hence my question

beer enigma

dudara wrote: »

You could submit a data access request under GDPR, asking to share which personal information they hold on you, how it is stored, who has access to it etc.

It doesn’t seem right that the internal candidate knew who you were, but maybe she was entitled to know under their internal structure.

My guess is that the information was slipped to them by someone within the body - its a small outfit & she has been interim there for nearly a year. GDPR will tell me what they have, basically my CV detail, but I suspect the communication of it was less than official.

if you could so easily identify the internal candidate then their data protection rights have been breachef

Stanford

beer enigma wrote: »

Its funded by a much larger state entity and controlled by a voluntary board. I was told that the head of the voluntary board was investigating and would hazard a guess that my next step is to HR of the parent entity, but I'm sure there must be a state body for these issues, hence my question

Forget any State Body just for the moment, you won't get far unless you can show that you have exhausted the local channels first, I suggest that you send a Registered Letter to the HR Function setting out your case and saying that lack of a response will result in you making a complaint under GDPR to the Data Commissioner, do NOT accuse anyone by name

beer enigma

Stanford wrote: »

I'm not saying it was an "accident", I'm trying to see the burden of proof you have to meet before suggesting anything sinsiter

I think the fact that out of four candidates, the only internal one went directly to my Linkedin page before my second interview would be proof enough that something went wrong somewhere. Proving where she got the info from I suspect will be impossible, but I want to highlight it, especially given the nature of the body is 100% confidential advice to the public.

beer enigma

Deleted User wrote: »

if you could so easily identify the internal candidate then their data protection rights have been breachef

Not really, I got notified that people were looking at my linkedin page so I looked to see who was looking. there was a person with photograph and a job title exactly matching the one I'd applied for. It was her own personal Linkedin profile so no data protection breach.

Stanford

beer enigma wrote: »

I think the fact that out of four candidates, the only internal one went directly to my Linkedin page before my second interview would be proof enough that something went wrong somewhere. Proving where she got the info from I suspect will be impossible, but I want to highlight it, especially given the nature of the body is 100% confidential advice to the public.

You might also suggest that since this person was a candidate herself for the post she should not have had access to other applicant's info

beer enigma

Stanford wrote: »

Forget any State Body just for the moment, you won't get far unless you can show that you have exhausted the local channels first, I suggest that you send a Registered Letter to the HR Function setting out your case and saying that lack of a response will result in you making a complaint under GDPR to the Data Commissioner, do NOT accuse anyone by name

Which is likely my next step, but until the agency come back and give me a clear answer from the body itself, I wont have exhausted every channel. I guess im just getting ready by thinking who I need to go to next.

My whole point is that she should have had absolutely no access to any other candidate detail

Stanford

beer enigma wrote: »

Which is likely my next step, but until the agency come back and give me a clear answer from the body itself, I wont have exhausted every channel. I guess im just getting ready by thinking who I need to go to next.

My whole point is that she should have had absolutely no access to any other candidate detail

I think its almost certain that a complaint to the Data Commission is your next step but I agree, wait and see what the Agency comes back with.

Bandana boy

Surely it could be as simple as somebody booking a room for "interview with beer enigma" and internal candidate putting 2+2 together and having a snoop .

Is it possible somebody recognised you on your first interview ?

I was actually making a visit to try and win some business with a potential client a few years back and was recognised by a former colleague who assumed I was interviewing and told folks in my company (his former) that I was interviewing at his place.

mrcheez

I worked in a place once where I found my CV lying around on a table for anyone to pick up. I was pretty shocked, but just ripped it up as it was my first week there.

Something as simple as that could have happened. Pretty typical for Ireland really.

beer enigma

Bandana boy wrote: »

Surely it could be as simple as somebody booking a room for "interview with beer enigma" and internal candidate putting 2+2 together and having a snoop .

Is it possible somebody recognised you on your first interview ?

I was actually making a visit to try and win some business with a potential client a few years back and was recognised by a former colleague who assumed I was interviewing and told folks in my company (his former) that I was interviewing at his place.

Nope as both interviews were held offsite and because I travel quite a bit with my current role both interviews were on separate days to the other candidates.

beer enigma

mrcheez wrote: »

I worked in a place once where I found my CV lying around on a table for anyone to pick up. I was pretty shocked, but just ripped it up as it was my first week there.

Something as simple as that could have happened. Pretty typical for Ireland really.

Not for an agency who's whole business is confidentiality, that would be a huge breach

4ensic15

Make a complaint to the Office of Data Protection. Either the agency or the state body gave out your name.

micar

https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Making-an-Access-Request/1715.htm

beer enigma

4ensic15 wrote: »

Make a complaint to the Office of Data Protection. Either the agency or the state body gave out your name.

Wasn't the agency as the internal wasn't with them, let's see what they come back with tomorrow.

Mirafiori

beer enigma wrote: »

Her job title was 'interim manager' for a very specific role within the state company, which matched up to the exact wording on the Linkedin profile and the Agency have subsequently confirmed that she was indeed the internal candidate. There are only 20 employees in this body and one interim manager, so it was fairly easy

If the job is very specific or specialised, would your potential candidature have been guessable based on your Linkedin profile by any chance?

It is tangential to what you are concerned about, but external candidates often have a good chance of knowing or finding out who the internal candidates might be, but not normally the other way around. There is an asymmetry there. Why were you told there was an internal candidate? Should that have happened?

beer enigma

Mirafiori wrote: »

If the job is very specific or specialised, would your potential candidature have been guessable based on your Linkedin profile by any chance?

It is tangential to what you are concerned about, but external candidates often have a good chance of knowing or finding out who the internal candidates might be, but not normally the other way around. There is an asymmetry there. Why were you told there was an internal candidate? Should that have happened?

Under open competition where an internal applies they are told it open to externals. I was told there was an internal candidate just as the internal candidate was told there were externals. Nothing wrong there.

The role was operations management and whilst her profile on LinkedIn clearly showed who she was I'm an ops manager in a completely different discipline so no way of tracing me.

I should say that she may well be the best candidate, I'm not disputing that side, just disputing how she got my details.

limnam

Did you have to sign in or get a badge before the interview?


They could have just looked at the guest log book if they knew "someone" was in been interviewed?

4ensic15

limnam wrote: »

Did you have to sign in or get a badge before the interview?


They could have just looked at the guest log book if they knew "someone" was in been interviewed?

It is still a breach of the Data protection Regulations if such a record was left available. The interviews were also held offsite.

Yawns

Correct, my place of work now has an amended sign in sheet for interviews for this very reason. Initials of the candidates in print is all that is on show on the sign in sheet. It used to be a full names printed on a page. So unless the another applicant recognises a name from the hand written signature, we should be in the good.

beer enigma

limnam wrote: »

Did you have to sign in or get a badge before the interview?
They could have just looked at the guest log book if they knew "someone" was in been interviewed?

No sign in or badge, both of my interviews were held in a hotel with just the four members of the Board. I was met in reception by the chair of the board, so even the hotel didn't have a record.

4ensic15 wrote: »

It is still a breach of the Data protection Regulations if such a record was left available. The interviews were also held offsite.

Absolutely. The agency are due back this morning and once I see what they come back with i can decide on the next step, but HR of the governing body & data protection now seem the logical next steps.

TheAbstracter

Is it possible that you popped up in the LinkedIn "people you may know" list for that other person? Was the job listed on LinkedIn and you viewed it? Or had you searched for the company on LinkedIn? Could be something as simple as the LinkedIn connection suggestion algorithm suggesting your profile for the other person, if you had recently started looking at the company which they were currently working as the interim manager. I think in LinkedIn is says how they found you, e.g. "from their newsfeed" or "through search"or similar.

beer enigma

TheAbstracter wrote: »

Is it possible that you popped up in the LinkedIn "people you may know" list for that other person? Was the job listed on LinkedIn and you viewed it? Or had you searched for the company on LinkedIn? Could be something as simple as the LinkedIn connection suggestion algorithm suggesting your profile for the other person, if you had recently started looking at the company which they were currently working as the interim manager. I think in LinkedIn is says how they found you, e.g. "from their newsfeed" or "through search"or similar.

Again, not possible, I've pretty much covered every angle here.

Its a state body so doesn't have a LinkedIn profile and I had no prior warning of who the volunteer board was made up of. To be honest i was working away and had no time to access LinkedIn. When I did go to LinkedIn a week AFTER the 2nd interview, I saw the other candidate had viewed my profile 2 weeks earlier 7 there are no common connections between us.

malkmoose

To make an official complaint about the recruitment process, I would first ask for their complaints procedure, If this does not work or they do not have one then I would contact the office of the ombudsman https://www.ombudsman.ie/

beer enigma

malkmoose wrote: »

To make an official complaint about the recruitment process, I would first ask for their complaints procedure, If this does not work or they do not have one then I would contact the office of the ombudsman https://www.ombudsman.ie/

Actually having looked at the site, that seems a fairly good one stop option

CeilingFly

What harm has been done. Obviously you did well enough in the interview to warrant being checked out. Very easy for someone internally to say someone called "Ber Enigma" applied for the job in a casual way.

Now you have a situation that you are looking for information and possibly looking at filing a complaint.

Ask yourself - will the agency be looking at putting you forward for positions with other clients of theirs?

storm in a teacup imo.

IITYWYBMAD

CeilingFly wrote: »

What harm has been done. Obviously you did well enough in the interview to warrant being checked out. Very easy for someone internally to say someone called "Ber Enigma" applied for the job in a casual way.

Now you have a situation that you are looking for information and possibly looking at filing a complaint.

Ask yourself - will the agency be looking at putting you forward for positions with other clients of theirs?

storm in a teacup imo.

This really is the type of comment that stinks of somebody with no ambition.

In fairness to the OP, he/she has put forward their argument very well, and answered some well made points and "alternative theories" with regards to the knowledge gained by the other candidate.

In my world if it quacks and walks like a duck, it's a duck. It's obvious that the internal candidate was given the OP's details. The fact that the internal candidate did not have the sense to hide their activity on Linkedin in their problem. But this does stink of the "old boys network" and at it's very basic level.

I'm sure that the OP approached the interview in a fair and even manner.

Is He/She not entitled to a level playing field when going for an interview? Isn't everybody?

If you're happy having your prospects hackney'd when you apply for a job, belt ahead. Or better still, don't bother.

The OP is more than entitled to pursue the grievance, and should be supported by both the agency and body concerned. I know I'd be p***ed off also.

beer enigma

CeilingFly wrote: »

What harm has been done. Obviously you did well enough in the interview to warrant being checked out. Very easy for someone internally to say someone called "Ber Enigma" applied for the job in a casual way.

Now you have a situation that you are looking for information and possibly looking at filing a complaint.

Ask yourself - will the agency be looking at putting you forward for positions with other clients of theirs?

storm in a teacup imo.

Very easy for you to say so, but when I'd queried whether this would be a level playing field i was assured it was. Twice I flew back from Lisbon for interview and then returned to Lisbon to continue the work at my own expense.

Unless one of the board members or Secretary mentioned my name to a very small team then there's no way this would have been made public.

This is a sister company to the Money Advisory Bureau, I'm sure you can appreciate the implications if they are equally as lax with regards to their client information under GDPR

I think i have a legitimate right to know how this information was disclosed to another candidate and if you read my posts, you will see that not only did I say the internal candidate may well have been the best choice, but I've also made it clear that i will only take this further if I don't get a satisfactory reply.

Very easy for me to have escalated this already, but its been over 3 weeks since this came to light and I'm patiently asking for a simple explanation but struggling to get a reply.

Maybe you would treat it as a storm in a t-cup, but for me its just slightly more than that.

GhostMutt30

beer enigma wrote: »

Actually having looked at the site, that seems a fairly good one stop option

The Ombudsman can't look at recruitment or semi-state companies, it's possible the cpsa could help http://www.cpsa.ie/en/

weldoninhio

Deleted User wrote: »

if you could so easily identify the internal candidate then their data protection rights have been breachef

Also the agency should be in bother for confirming who the second candidate was, to you, when you asked.

beer enigma

weldoninhio wrote: »

Also the agency should be in bother for confirming who the second candidate was, to you, when you asked.

I agree totally - I suspect it slipped out when I mentioned i had a screenshot of the candidate on my LI page, but its shabby all round.

beer enigma

Ok just had a call from the agency and gave them permission for the organisation to contact me directly.

They told me that following their internal investigation, the individual had claimed that she'd seen my name in their internal Health & Safety sign in book that the board use for visitors and in a moment of madness she had used the information to look me up.

I was just about to point out this was not possible when they added that that they appreciate this could not be the truth as the interview had taken place away from the workplace and that the lookup on LinkedIn was prior to the 2nd interview date.

They are writing to me directly following further investigation, so I'll hold my breath a bit longer.

AlphaOmega1

Following this for the drama, hope you get the truth OP

Thud

It stinks and likely shows the interview wasn't done on a level playing field, if they were given your name they clearly had someone on the interview panel who favored them or was looking out for them.
What other info were they given prior to the interview, did their connection sway the other members of the panel into hiring them??

At very least you were wasting your time from the start.

TheBoyConor

unlikely an FOI or GDPR investigation would reveal any evidence of wrongdoing. And it certainly won't if she found out your name via by means of conversation.

skallywag

Just an aside, but it was pretty dumb for her to be looking at your Linkedin profile before the interview if she was not in anonymous mode setting ...

KevRossi

TheBoyConor wrote: »

unlikely an FOI or GDPR investigation would reveal any evidence of wrongdoing. And it certainly won't if she found out your name via by means of conversation.

She already lied about where she got the name from.

So far they have found out that she's a liar. An FOI or GDPR would likely reveal more. If it starts to get too hot for those responsible, then it'll be race to see who splills the beans in an effort to try to save their reputation.

*Following

beer enigma

Just want to make one thing very clear on this thread.

I really don't want this to be a witch hunt. However the internal candidate got my details, they made an error of judgement. They had been interim manager for a while and nobody knows what the position meant for them and their family. Given the information I'm sure a lot of people would have bee tempted to look. Naivety in not covering their tracks.

My gripe is that I feel the interview process was not on a level playing field especially given the time and cost I incurred flying in and out for interviews. I'm 53 and a Senior Ops manager for 25 years.

I also feel the nature of the organisation is 100% confidentiality and this shows there are weaknesses.

Yes im angry because I feel played but it also shows a potential huge weakness in the confidentiality this body is built on.

If I'm asked whether I want action against the employee my answer would be no, naivety can be managed. Culture has to be changed though

gordongekko

let it go and move on

beer enigma

gordongekko wrote: »

let it go and move on

No comment......