Overbooked IE trains

XPS_Zero

I had the misfortune to be on the Dublin-Cork train today at 14:00


At first I was confused because I saw an ICR, but it had one of those Premier "yellow pack version of first class, I cant BELIEVE they call this first class" carriages so off I went and sat down.


So I take out my laptop, tablet (to charge via laptop) , notes etc. The train starts to fill up. Four people approch who have booked my seats. Now I'm not one of these "if the displays were not on I've no obligation -f__k off" people, and it would be pretty brazen of me still (though not for much longer) on an FT pass to tell fare paying passengers to p1ss off as I sit in their booked seats, so I apologized, packed my gear up and moved.


The train was due to leave in 20 minutes, but even after we departed the displays were never turned on. As a result of this, two things happened:


1. We all ended up playing an absolutely farcical game of musical chairs, I moved THREE TIMES finding myself in other peoples seats, and at least three dozen other people were moving around the same.


2. The train, it turns out, was overbooked...I assumed since there was a Portlaoise train in 20 min and other trains that they'd get on the speakers and give people who wanted to pay for it the first class upgrade option (I contemplated it before realizing that PREMIER nonsense is no different to any other carriage other than the seat cushion, no extra space or other stuff so not worth it) but I figured some of the seniors who were now out of seats might take up the offer. It was never made. I also assumed that someone would come on and say "there is a train to Portlaoise and x yz wherever else in 20 minutes for any who want to move we can board you for that train early we will give you priority boarding if you wanna take advantage of the opportunity"....nope. So people had to stand or sit on the rock hard floor....for a nearly 3 hour trip, and no it didn't empty out much at Portlaoise in fact an equal amount got off as got on.




Do IE not have a booking software that can tell them something as f--_-__g BASIC as "105 seats, 105 bookings - sell no further tickets for this train". Are the terminals in booking offices even connected with the online system?



I assume (based on this) that the ticket does not allocate me to a particular train (even theoretically) and i could have used the ticket for any train going that way, so they literally have no way of knowing if they've overbooked the longest rail journey on the island?



First: Does it not make sense to have tickets (inc FT tickets, the works) allocate you a particular seat on a particular service and have it all tied in together to prevent this happening?? I'm trying to think if I had to make this trip while I was at the height of being sick it would have been a nightmare, and the seniors who had to sit half inside luggage racks just to take the weight off. This is a stupid way of running a railway.

Second: The displays not turned on was a major complained BACK IN 2007 WHEN THESE TRAINS FIRST ARRIVED HAVE THEY SERIOUSLY F____G STILL NOT GOT THIS SORTED? WHAT THE F:___k??

Jamie2k9

It wasn't overbooked, it sounds like it was a 5 ICR and that's what is available online. High volumes traveling home from Longitude and potentially people misusing semi and flex tickets believing they are entailed to booked seats when they are not. I raised this with them and they were not interested even though the solution is simple.

Del.Monte

The solution would have been not to get rid of the MkIII stock.

Isambard

Del.Monte wrote: »

The solution would have been not to get rid of the MkIII stock.

possibly, but at least the solution is not to use 5 coach trains on the principal service in the State. (unless they use two of them of course)

XPS_Zero

I have to disagree - if there are more tickets sold than the train has seats by definition it is overbooked
I didn't check the times on peoples tickets, I should have and next time I will but they clearly sold more tickets than they can fit in the train.

The train barriers should be programmed to reject paper tickets whos hours of booking have passed same way it does days of booking passed.

Surely they can make longer ICRs? I was told the ICR can work with double it's size, they can get ones that are full platform length or even double it and only open the doors of the first 6 say. It's not acceptable for this to happen to have people sitting on the floor or standing on the Dublin-Cork line , and it's an embarrasement to the natives re visitors

Jamie2k9

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I have to disagree - if there are more tickets sold than the train has seats by definition it is overbooked
I didn't check the times on peoples tickets, I should have and next time I will but they clearly sold more tickets than they can fit in the train.

The train barriers should be programmed to reject paper tickets whos hours of booking have passed same way it does days of booking passed.

Surely they can make longer ICRs? I was told the ICR can work with double it's size, they can get ones that are full platform length or even double it and only open the doors of the first 6 say. It's not acceptable for this to happen to have people sitting on the floor or standing on the Dublin-Cork line , and it's an embarrasement to the natives re visitors

Yes it is acceptable, Cork trains suffer the least overcrowding on the network.

Do you think FT tickets should be rejected considering there was more paying passengers looking to travel?

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yes it is acceptable, Cork trains suffer the least overcrowding on the network.

Do you think FT tickets should be rejected considering there was more paying passengers looking to travel?

How the hell is it acceptable on any line in the country?

cython

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I have to disagree - if there are more tickets sold than the train has seats by definition it is overbooked
I didn't check the times on peoples tickets, I should have and next time I will but they clearly sold more tickets than they can fit in the train.

The train barriers should be programmed to reject paper tickets whos hours of booking have passed same way it does days of booking passed.

Surely they can make longer ICRs? I was told the ICR can work with double it's size, they can get ones that are full platform length or even double it and only open the doors of the first 6 say. It's not acceptable for this to happen to have people sitting on the floor or standing on the Dublin-Cork line , and it's an embarrasement to the natives re visitors

ICR sets can be joined together, yes. However only by putting complete sets together - they can't just add or remove cars arbitrarily like the loco hauled stock, that's a whole project in and of itself. As for double length and only open X number of doors, ICRs don't have selective door opening, so not an option to make one longer than the platform. And even if you could, since it would be made up of multiple sets, if long enough there would likely be no route from certain cars to the doors at a platform.

I don't disagree with the farcical nature of it, for what it's worth, but design decisions by CIE in ordering their stock have contributed in the form of the above.

Hilly Bill

It can't be overbooked, there is only a certain number of seats that can be booked, they can't be booked twice.
If the op was in the Premier coach then the chances of them being asked to move was going to be high.
Passengers travelling without pre booked seats doesn't count towards a train being overbooked.

CeilingFly

Hope you never get a train in the UK.

About three times the price, frequently delayed and ALWAYS crowded with staff not giving a damn.

That's standard service in the UK.

Cakewheels

Agreed it is unacceptable. Have had similar experiences on other lines, though not quite as bad. Maybe the semi/flex tickets just aren't working and they should bring back fixed times and the €10 fee for changing the time on a ticket that was booked online? It would allow them to increase the price for particular trains at times when they could see the train was almost full (within particular bands such as the max price at the ticket office, not complete gouging). It might also help them to anticipate demand better and add extra carriages where possible?

I also think consideration should be given to requiring FT passengers to pay some sort of a small fee and to book their tickets in advance for long distance trips.

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

How the hell is it acceptable on any line in the country?

Its not ideal but 100% of the time its just not possible. I do have to say IE have made improved efforts to address it and the reality is Cork passengers have it good in terms of capacity by in large it copes well.

Passenger numbers were well above normal levels and capacity was added on various routes but you must still protect your existing evening peak schedules so adding carriages to every service isn't practical.

zetalambda

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yes it is acceptable, Cork trains suffer the least overcrowding on the network.

Are you for real? I've been travelling on the Dublin to Cork train for years and it's rare that you don't have a packed train with large numbers of people standing at peak times. Since the start of this year, I've travelled on the Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Sligo a few times each. Dublin to Galway on average is about 30% full and Dublin to Sligo about 75% and we're talking 3 carriage commuter trains on these two routes. I was even given a detailed survey to fill out on the Dublin to Galway last time. I'm assuming this is to identify why it's such a failure! (it focused a lot on where I go and why plus how I get there e.g. car, bus or train, preferences, reasons, etc, etc.)

Jamie2k9

zetalambda wrote: »

Are you for real? I've been travelling on the Dublin to Cork train for years and it's rare that you don't have a packed train with large numbers of people standing at peak times. Since the start of this year, I've travelled on the Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Sligo a few times each. Dublin to Galway on average is about 30% full and Dublin to Sligo about 75% and we're talking 3 carriage commuter trains on these two routes. I was even given a detailed survey to fill out on the Dublin to Galway last time. I'm assuming this is to identify why it's such a failure! (it focused a lot on where I go and why plus how I get there e.g. car, bus or train, preferences, reasons, etc, etc.)

Yes I am for real, bar the 18.00 most days (excl Friday on all routes) there is sufficient capacity, the 17.00 is probably one of the lowest trafficked intercity train departing between 17.00-18.00 out of Heuston.

You have clearly traveled on Galway/Sligo off peak because peak trains are 5-6 coaches and regularly suffer from over crowding.

IE treat the Cork route far more superior in terms of capacity than the rest. I'm sure you have been on the poorly loaded 06.15 service as well!

end of the road

the reservation/seat issue has been problematic for years. no staff on board most trains now to enforce anything and they don't seem to be in a hurry to fix the reservation system.
also the capacity issue has been problematic since at least 2010. it is compounded by the fact that there aren't enough unit sets to double up on a lot of the long distance services as a number of them operate suburban services, mainly on the portlaoise/kildare heuston corridor.

Quackster

Del.Monte wrote: »

How the hell is it acceptable on any line in the country?

I can't speak for anyone else but I would most certainly rather stand (and I have more than once over the years) rather than be left behind. Extra rolling-stock can't just be magiced out of thin air.

Fortunately FT ticket-holders can purchase a seat reservation in advance if they so wish.

Hilly Bill

end of the road wrote: »

the reservation/seat issue has been problematic for years. no staff on board most trains now to enforce anything and they don't seem to be in a hurry to fix the reservation system.
also the capacity issue has been problematic since at least 2010. it is compounded by the fact that there aren't enough unit sets to double up on a lot of the long distance services as a number of them operate suburban services, mainly on the portlaoise/kildare heuston corridor.

They monitor the reservation system on the trains and work to rectify any failures.

zetalambda

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yes I am for real, bar the 18.00 most days (excl Friday on all routes) there is sufficient capacity, the 17.00 is probably one of the lowest trafficked intercity train departing between 17.00-18.00 out of Heuston.

That seems odd on the busiest intercity route on the entire island.

Addle

Cakewheels wrote: »

I also think consideration should be given to requiring FT passengers to pay some sort of a small fee and to book their tickets in advance for long distance trips.

I've been travelling to Dublin from the west with a ft passenger regular the last few months and I always book our seats, as it's the only way to guarantee seats and particular seats.

By selling open return tickets, Irish rail can never have any realistic expectation of how many people will travel or if when they'll travel.

Pre-booking should be compulsory.

PlaneSpeeking

zetalambda wrote: »

That seems odd on the busiest intercity route on the entire island.

You ever seen the 17.25 Dublin to Limerick ???

Lovely paradox from EI - if you're not on by 5.10pm (assuming it's there!) you will rarely get a seat.

Plus the overhead reservations are rarely on - so you get kicked out regularly as OP discusses.

And for that we pay 4k a year and the option - from certain posters anyway - is "pay more for a reservation"!!!!

PlaneSpeeking

Addle wrote: »

I've been travelling to Dublin from the west with a ft passenger regular the last few months and I always book our seats, as it's the only way to guarantee seats and particular seats.

By selling open return tickets, Irish rail can never have any realistic expectation of how many people will travel or if when they'll travel.

Pre-booking should be compulsory.

And free if you have an annual ticket.

Hilly Bill

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And free if you have an annual ticket.

Why?

Try_harder

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They monitor the reservation system on the trains and work to rectify any failures.

How? Most evenings the seat displays arent working when I get on at Heuston

PlaneSpeeking

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Why?

What part of 4 grand a year was unclear to you ???

TheChizler

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

What part of 4 grand a year was unclear to you ???

Depends how often it's used, that could be fantastic value per journey even before paying for the seat booking.

PlaneSpeeking

TheChizler wrote: »

Depends how often it's used, that could be fantastic value per journey even before paying for the seat booking.

Well as it's to get to work, it's morning and night 5 days a week year round, sadly.

My point is that why should I have to pay extra to get a seat when I've been doing a ten hour day and want to get home ???

Why can't IE just get their house in order - only sell say 40% of tickets online; you can only get a reservation for one train - others and you can travel (if a flexi ticket) but the reservation does not carry and make sure the ****ing reservation lights are working before anyone boards.

TheChizler

€8.33 per journey assuming 240 working days in the year? While it's a lot to pay up front and you're a loyal customer, at those rates why should you be treated preferably to someone who just bought a single ticket?

Try_harder

Irish Rail would be in big problem without its huge income from Annual tickets. I wonder what % single/return ticket passagers make up?

schemingbohemia

Why didn't the OP book a seat for a fiver on their free travel pass, would have meant they wouldn't have had to move. Simple.

PlaneSpeeking

Try_harder wrote: »

Irish Rail would be in big problem without its huge income from Annual tickets. I wonder what % single/return ticket passagers make up?

Cheers!

PlaneSpeeking

TheChizler wrote: »

€8.33 per journey assuming 240 working days in the year? While it's a lot to pay up front and you're a loyal customer, at those rates why should you be treated preferably to someone who just bought a single ticket?

I may have been taught by nuns but I sill think 4 grand is more than 16 quid, or zero.

TheChizler

You're going to have to explain that one. Are you saying that because you're paying for all your tickets up front (and get a substantial discount for doing so) you're entitled to better treatment on a particular journey than the people who spend more than you on that journey? Why not everyone pays for the better treatment on a particular journey if they want it?

howiya

Try_harder wrote: »

Irish Rail would be in big problem without its huge income from Annual tickets. I wonder what % single/return ticket passagers make up?

It's not very realistic to suggest Irish Rail would have to forgo this income any time soon. How likely are people going to vote with their feet and get an annual ticket for the bus next year instead?

Addle

TheChizler wrote: »

You're going to have to explain that one. Are you saying that because you're paying for all your tickets up front (and get a substantial discount for doing so) you're entitled to better treatment on a particular journey than the people who spend more than you on that journey? Why not everyone pays for the better treatment on a particular journey if they want it?

The discount is from the tax man, not Irish rail.

Try_harder

TheChizler wrote: »

You're going to have to explain that one. Are you saying that because you're paying for all your tickets up front (and get a substantial discount for doing so) you're entitled to better treatment on a particular journey than the people who spend more than you on that journey? Why not everyone pays for the better treatment on a particular journey if they want it?

Not better, but certainly not worse

PlaneSpeeking

Addle wrote: »

The discount is from the tax man, not Irish rail.

And I only get the "perk" because of copious amounts of tax paid!

That fact tends to slip by!

howiya

Addle wrote: »

The discount is from the tax man, not Irish rail.

There is a discount from Irish Rail too. Check out the gross price of the annual ticket versus booking an individual daily return.

Eg Dublin Portlaoise €30 return online. Annual ticket €3,620.00

PlaneSpeeking

howiya wrote: »

There is a discount from Irish Rail too. Check out the gross price of the annual ticket versus booking an individual daily return.

Eg Dublin Portlaoise €30 return online. Annual ticket €3,620.00

Plus LUAS red/green line on top - I don't work in Heuston. Total is E4,080.

howiya

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Plus LUAS red/green line on top - I don't work in Heuston. Total is E4,080.

Still a substantial discount from Irish Rail though? The post I was replying to suggested Irish Rail didn't provide a discount.

TheChizler

Addle wrote: »

The discount is from the tax man, not Irish rail.

I didn't specify where the discount was. At the end of the day you're getting much better value than paying for individual tickets.

Hilly Bill

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

What part of 4 grand a year was unclear to you ???

Why should you get a free seat just because you get a discounted rate? All you have done is paid in advance whilst saving a few quid. You are not more important than anyone else on that train.

PlaneSpeeking

TheChizler wrote: »

I didn't specify where the discount was. At the end of the day you're getting much better value than paying for individual tickets.

I counted the other morning - train was late - and 76 people get on at my stop.

Let's say, half are commuters with Taxsavers - we're responsible for near 160k in EI's coffers. I don't think we're exactly scabbing off them are we ?

To be asked to pay for another tenner a day just for a guaranteed seat - when the simplest answer is to the company to get a simple system working properly - shows a distinct contempt for working people.

Hilly Bill

Try_harder wrote: »

How? Most evenings the seat displays arent working when I get on at Heuston

They record if the sets were checked or not and if not why. They also note if the reservations are working or not. If not, then they note the reason for it. It all gets inputed onto the system with any problems looked at.

Hilly Bill

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Why didn't the OP book a seat for a fiver on their free travel pass, would have meant they wouldn't have had to move. Simple.

Would have costed more than a fiver in the coach that they was sitting in

Hilly Bill

Addle wrote: »

The discount is from the tax man, not Irish rail.

Still a discount.

Hilly Bill

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I counted the other morning - train was late - and 76 people get on at my stop.

Let's say, half are commuters with Taxsavers - we're responsible for near 160k in EI's coffers. I don't think we're exactly scabbing off them are we ?

To be asked to pay for another tenner a day just for a guaranteed seat - when the simplest answer is to the company to get a simple system working properly - shows a distinct contempt for working people.

The system working properly properly still doesn't guarantee you a seat.. All you have paid for is to get on any train from A to B and if you are travelling at peak times and getting on at an intermediate stop then there its highly likely that you may have to stand for your journey.. It's not a new thing, it's common across the globe for passengers to stand during peak times. The only legitimate gripe you have is if being asked to move from a pre booked seat if no names are showing.. This is the same for everyone regardless of what your ticket costs.

end of the road

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They record if the sets were checked or not and if not why. They also note if the reservations are working or not. If not, then they note the reason for it. It all gets inputed onto the system with any problems looked at.

it doesn't seem to be working well though hilly. problems with the reservation system are very regular.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The system working properly properly still doesn't guarantee you a seat.. All you have paid for is to get on any train from A to B and if you are travelling at peak times and getting on at an intermediate stop then there its highly likely that you may have to stand for your journey.. It's not a new thing, it's common across the globe for passengers to stand during peak times.

agreed. however to be fair, a lot of our long distance services only have lots of standing due to the running of short trains.

Emme

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

To be asked to pay for another tenner a day just for a guaranteed seat - when the simplest answer is to the company to get a simple system working properly - shows a distinct contempt for working people.

Irish Rail seem to despise working people with annual passes. They keep telling us how good we have it :rolleyes: and how much worse off we would be in the UK. It kinda makes sense because the railway lines were put there by the British - IRISH Rail should be capable of original thinking and more intelligent than the British but instead they see their customer service as some kind of benchmark.

Irish Rail take annual ticket holders for granted because they know the train is the only option many of us have to get to work. People can't afford to buy a house near where they work. If you drive and take the M7/M9 it takes nearly 2 hours longer than it should. The bus service is very limited in some rural towns. They have us over a barrel and they know it.

Whatever about the UK, there will be an accident at one of the train stations some day with people rushing for the train. People literally push and jostle each other when the platform is called because it is so hard to get a seat on some trains. Many fill up less than 5 minutes after the platform is called.

Hilly Bill

Emme wrote: »

Irish Rail seem to despise working people with annual passes. They keep telling us how good we have it :rolleyes: and how much worse off we would be in the UK. It kinda makes sense because the railway lines were put there by the British - IRISH Rail should be capable of original thinking and more intelligent than the British but instead they see their customer service as some kind of benchmark.

Irish Rail take annual ticket holders for granted because they know the train is the only option many of us have to get to work. People can't afford to buy a house near where they work. If you drive and take the M7/M9 it takes nearly 2 hours longer than it should. The bus service is very limited in some rural towns. They have us over a barrel and they know it.

Whatever about the UK, there will be an accident at one of the train stations some day with people rushing for the train. People literally push and jostle each other when the platform is called because it is so hard to get a seat on some trains. Many fill up less than 5 minutes after the platform is called.

Do you expect to be treated differently than any other passenger?

Addle

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Do you expect to be treated differently than any other passenger?

I'd expected to be treated the same.
We should all get seats.

There is a benefit to any business being paid for a service in advance btw, be it by buying a voucher or paying a deposit or buying an annual ticket.

Hilly Bill

Addle wrote: »

I'd expected to be treated the same.
We should all get seats.

There is a benefit to any business being paid for a service in advance btw, be it by buying a voucher or paying a deposit or buying an annual ticket.

It's impossible to guarantee everyone a seat especially at peak times.