Pony trekking group on public road

badtoro

I've no issue with other road users acting sensibly, it's there for us all to use. But, I do have a question. Today on a poor quality, winding, high tourist traffic N road with seriously limited overtaking areas I met a group of 23 ponies & riders in one single file line. There's no hard shoulder, there was significant traffic in both directions.

Such a long unbroken line presented a major obstacle to motorists.

Should the group have been broken down into three or more smaller groups or are there any laws regarding this situation?

I've no issue with the activity, just the size of the group, the obvious very low speed and while I've no doubt the ponies are 100% comfortable with traffic they're another factor to take into consideration when attempting to navigate past them.

It appears to be an accident waiting to happen.

Del2005

They were in single file on a road so doing nothing wrong. What difference would there have been if it was group cyclists or walkers? Because they would be on the same side. Also the people on the horses have the power to stop traffic.

If anything happens it's the motorists fault

badtoro

Del2005 wrote: »

They were in single file on a road so doing nothing wrong. What difference would there have been if it was group cyclists or walkers? Because they would be on the same side. Also the people on the horses have the power to stop traffic.

If anything happens it's the motorists fault

I work with animals, believe me it might say we have power to stop traffic, but an awful lot of motorists will plough on.

My point was 23 ponies nose to tail effectively create a rolling roadblock. On such a road as described it becomes a dangerous situation.

I was asking is there anything stating group sizes and leaving space to overtake safely (like cars are meant to leave space between them for overtaking).

D3V!L

badtoro wrote: »

Such a long unbroken line presented a major obstacle to motorists.

"I'm not a racist but....." The ponies have as much right to be on the road as any motorist. Motorist dont have sole use of the roads.

badtoro

D3V!L wrote: »

"I'm not a racist but....." The ponies have as much right to be on the road as any motorist. Motorist dont have sole use of the roads.

Where did I say that they don't?

I don't see justification for your first few words.

conor2469

It is also worth noting that overtaking a cyclist and overtaking a horse/pony are not exactly the same, you have to take into account whether the animal is easily spooked or not. With a cyclist you can drop a gear and accelerate past quickly without fearing that the noise will spook the cyclist.

badtoro

conor2469 wrote: »

It is also worth noting that overtaking a cyclist and overtaking a horse/pony are not exactly the same, you have to take into account whether the animal is easily spooked or not. With a cyclist you can drop a gear and accelerate past quickly without fearing that the noise will spook the cyclist.

I definitely don't doubt the ponies suitability, I know the operator has been doing this for decades. I was just wondering about the size of the group on a road with such conditions.

Del2005

conor2469 wrote: »

It is also worth noting that overtaking a cyclist and overtaking a horse/pony are not exactly the same, you have to take into account whether the animal is easily spooked or not. With a cyclist you can drop a gear and accelerate past quickly without fearing that the noise will spook the cyclist.

A cyclist can do stupid moves same as an animal. Was behind one who went perpendicular to the traffic when going up a hill, dropping a gear and accelerating here would have ended badly.

conor2469

badtoro wrote: »

I definitely don't doubt the ponies suitability, I know the operator has been doing this for decades. I was just wondering about the size of the group on a road with such conditions.

I agree that it would have been courteous for them to break into smaller groups so it would've been easier for other traffic to pass.

I'm not sure why they chose otherwise, perhaps they want an experienced rider at the front and back of the group, so dividing into subgroups would require 2 experienced people per subgroup, they didn't have enough experienced people so just kept everyone in one long group.

conor2469

Del2005 wrote: »

A cyclist can do stupid moves same as an animal. Was behind one who went perpendicular to the traffic when going up a hill, dropping a gear and accelerating here would have ended badly.

Very true, I have also witnessed cyclists act incredibly recklessly. But if they choose to cycle out in front of me without indicating or looking behind then that is their choice. My point was that excessive noise from an overtake may spook an animal so extra care has to be taken when doing so.

granturismo

While the ponies were travelling slower than cyclists, what distance were the ponies hacking on the road, it was unlikely to be a huge distance. If I was paying for a pony trek, I'd be disappointed if I was on a road for 1 hour. I guess they were heading for an offroad trek.

Del2005

conor2469 wrote: »

Very true, I have also witnessed cyclists act incredibly recklessly. But if they choose to cycle out in front of me without indicating or looking behind then that is their choice. My point was that excessive noise from an overtake may spook an animal so extra care has to be taken when doing so.

That's a terrible attitude to have. Just because someone does something stupid doesn't allow you to mow them down.

My point is that you can't trust a cyclist, or any road user, not to do something stupid so you have to pass them all with the same care.

artanevilla

I think OP is questioning the size of the group, and it's appropriateness for road safety/traffic and nothing else.

badtoro

artanevilla wrote: »

I think OP is questioning the size of the group, and it's appropriateness for road safety/traffic and nothing else.

100%

Cabaal

badtoro wrote: »

On such a road as described it becomes a dangerous situation.

Only if motorists take chances and try overtake when it is not safe to do so

conor2469

Del2005 wrote: »

That's a terrible attitude to have. Just because someone does something stupid doesn't allow you to mow them down.

No need to overreact, I never said I felt I was allowed to mow them down. But if someone does something incredibly stupid then there is only so much I can do and I am not to blame for their carelessness.

Del2005 wrote: »

My point is that you can't trust a cyclist, or any road user, not to do something stupid so you have to pass them all with the same care.

Care is required when overtaking any vulnerable road user, that is a given. Rather than adding an extreme to make a point ( A cyclist suddenly an unexpectedly veering out in front for some reason) consider that the horserider and cyclist are both fairly competent and careful.
My point is that the additional factor of the horses temperament creates an extra element that you must also consider.

Borderfox

I was out on a hack from the Royal Meath equestrian centre which went from their centre to the hill of Tara (approx 8km there and the same) on roads (some big, some small). They had three experienced riders guiding a group of about 15 riders and we went in single file. At two points in the hack we pulled over at a safe area to allow the build up of traffic past but otherwise it was very peaceful.

It wouldn't have been possible to split the group up as Horses are herd animals and it would make some of them anxious and possibly hard to control.

A very pleasant day with the minimum of delay to any other road users, that said all drivers and cyclists were very patient and the route chosen had long sight lines so with hi-vis we were easily seen.

badtoro

Cabaal wrote: »

Only if motorists take chances and try overtake when it is not safe to do so

An English car over took the lot of them on a hilly bend. The road conditions mentioned earlier , combined with the traffic volume don't allow for safe overtaking of such a large group.

However, if it were a smaller group or groups this would be made significantly easier and safer. All one has to do is look at some of the threads in this forum to see not everyone practices safe driving.

ohnonotgmail

badtoro wrote: »

An English car over took the lot of them on a hilly bend. The road conditions mentioned earlier , combined with the traffic volume don't allow for safe overtaking of such a large group.

However, if it were a smaller group or groups this would be made significantly easier and safer. All one has to do is look at some of the threads in this forum to see not everyone practices safe driving.

but that is a problem with the driver and not the ponies.

Isambard

if it isn't safe to overtake, you wait until it is safe to do so.

cruizer101

Although roads are not purely for cars there is an expectation that all road users are not inconsiderate to other users and to my mind travelling in such a large group at a speed significantly slower than most road users isn't considerate behaviour. Now fair enough if they were only travelling a short enough distance along the road, but if it was a significant distance and they didn't make any effort to allow other road users by (breaking group up, pulling in) that is inconsiderate even if not legally wrong.

markpb

cruizer101 wrote: »

Although roads are not purely for cars there is an expectation that all road users are not inconsiderate to other users.

That's not entirely true. There's an expectation that road users are considerate to car drivers, not to all road users. It's fine to park on cycle lanes and on footpaths. It's acceptable to park directly opposite other cars so that bin trucks and emergency service vehicles can't get through housing estates. There's no problem at all with cars queuing two abreast at a junction, even if there's only one lane and cyclists are impeded from cycling normally. Overtaking a bus at a bus stop when there's a solid white line, forcing oncoming traffic to stop for you is an every day occurrence.

cruizer101

Examples of inconsiderate behavior by one group towards other don't somehow nullify other acts of inconsiderate behavior on that group.
Take any reasonably large group of people and there will always be some dicks there, doesn't mean they all are.

markpb

cruizer101 wrote: »

Examples of inconsiderate behavior by one group towards other don't somehow nullify other acts of inconsiderate behavior on that group.
Take any reasonably large group of people and there will always be some dicks there, doesn't mean they all are.

Maybe I was unclear. I wasn't saying that -some- drivers act inconsiderately towards others, I'm saying that we've developed a mentality where it's perfectly okay for any driver to disregard the convenience (and sometimes the safety) of other types of road users. It might be individuals who are being inconsiderate but every housing estate in the country is littered with bad parkers. Every football match, every mass, every funeral has hoards of people parking in a way that is inconsiderate. Every time there's a crash on a motorway, a significant number of people will drive on the hard shoulder to avoid it, usually delaying the emergency services. Every guarda speed check is signalled to oncoming road users. Every speed camera van is decried publicly because it's unfair to punish motorists breaking the law. And because it's culturally accepted, the guards almost never take any action because they see no problem.

A line of cars driving in the bus or cycle lane and holding up legitimate users of those lines is perfectly acceptable but a line of ponies making it hard to overtake sparks a debate on here about how they're not being polite.

conor2469

markpb wrote: »

A line of cars driving slowing in the bus or cycle lane and holding up legitimate users of those lines is perfectly acceptable

No its not. It is acceptable to the people doing it.

marvin80

Some joke - they don't even pay road tax.

Loads of fields there and they weren't using them either.

:D

dr.fuzzenstein

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but that is a problem with the driver and not the ponies.

So if something happens the ponies and riders will be safe?
That is good to know.

edit:

Yes, drivers have to look out for cyclists, pedestrians, horses, donkeys, children, farmers and all manner of dangers on the road.
If they drive too fast or don't pay attention, something unfortunate will happen.
But the attitude of "well, drivers should look out for me so I'll be fine" could be seen as not ideal.
Not talking about the ponies in the OP, more a general point.

Isambard

markpb wrote: »

Maybe I was unclear. I wasn't saying that -some- drivers act inconsiderately towards others, I'm saying that we've developed a mentality where it's perfectly okay for any driver to disregard the convenience (and sometimes the safety) of other types of road users. It might be individuals who are being inconsiderate but every housing estate in the country is littered with bad parkers. Every football match, every mass, every funeral has hoards of people parking in a way that is inconsiderate. Every time there's a crash on a motorway, a significant number of people will drive on the hard shoulder to avoid it, usually delaying the emergency services. Every guarda speed check is signalled to oncoming road users. Every speed camera van is decried publicly because it's unfair to punish motorists breaking the law. And because it's culturally accepted, the guards almost never take any action because they see no problem.

A line of cars driving in the bus or cycle lane and holding up legitimate users of those lines is perfectly acceptable but a line of ponies making it hard to overtake sparks a debate on here about how they're not being polite.

That's a very good point. How is a line of cars doing 2 mph more acceptable than a line of Ponies ditto? The cars are about twice as wide too

Kamili

marvin80 wrote: »

Some joke - they don't even pay road tax.

Loads of fields there and they weren't using them either.

:D

Don't feed the troll, don't feed the troll

Screw it I have to bite.

A motorist Must yield to a horse on the road if requested by the person in control of the animal.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print

30. A driver meeting or overtaking an animal on a road shall either reduce speed or halt the vehicle, if requested to do so (whether by signal or otherwise) by a person in charge of the animal.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Horse_Safety/RSA_Horse_road_safety_booklet.pdf

Riding in company
If you are riding in company on the road, avoid blocking traffic. A group of horses
and riders should divide into smaller groups (half a horse’s length between
horses), leaving enough space between groups for a motorist to pass easily. There
should be an experienced rider at the front and back of each group of riders. Each
small group should always cross a road or junction as a unit. Do not let one horse
become isolated from the group as it will become anxious.

So yes they should have broken up into smaller groups to allow traffic pass.

ohnonotgmail

Kamili wrote: »

Don't feed the troll, don't feed the troll

Screw it I have to bite.

A motorist Must yield to a horse on the road if requested by the person in control of the animal.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print






http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Horse_Safety/RSA_Horse_road_safety_booklet.pdf



So yes they should have broken up into smaller groups to allow traffic pass.

That is advice not a requirement.

Kamili

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

That is advice not a requirement.

How are the road traffic By laws only advice??

ohnonotgmail

Kamili wrote: »

How are the road traffic By laws only advice??

you quoted an RSA document not road traffic laws

Kamili

Eh, the first link is traffic laws.

ohnonotgmail

Kamili wrote: »

Eh, the first link is traffic laws.

It is. But that creates a requirement for how the motorist behaves not how the pony riders behave.

glic71rods46t0

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is. But that creates a requirement for how the motorist behaves not how the pony riders behave.

Usual anti motorit nonsense being peddled I see... Rules of the Road are legally enforceable and sets the expectations of road users regarding their behaviour on the road. There would be simply no point in having "Rules of the Road" if they weren't (1) Rules and (2) enforceable.
Horseriders and all slow moving traffic including cyclists and tractors have an obligation to pull in to avoid the build up of traffic

ohnonotgmail

pufyagkx7szm43 wrote: »

Usual anti motorit nonsense being peddled I see... Rules of the Road are legally enforceable and sets the expectations of road users regarding their behaviour on the road. There would be simply no point in having "Rules of the Road" if they weren't (1) Rules and (2) enforceable.
Horseriders and all slow moving traffic including cyclists and tractors have an obligation to pull in to avoid the build up of traffic

i'm sure you can provide me with the relevant section of the road traffic acts that says that?

glic71rods46t0

Isambard wrote: »

by the same token, cars in slow moving traffic should pull over too

Yes, but only the slow moving one up front that's causing the delay

Isambard

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i'm sure you can provide me with the relevant section of the road traffic acts that says that?

yes I struggled to find that. The two links are not really on the same subject

glic71rods46t0

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i'm sure you can provide me with the relevant section of the road traffic acts that says that?

I have no intention of instructing you on how to join the dots between road traffic legislation and the Rules of the Road - do your own research!
But to help you on your way, look up the tractor driver in Mayo back in 2015, I wonder how he ended up with a driving ban "shure its only the ROTR, show me the legislation I say"

Seth Brundle

conor2469 wrote: »

It is also worth noting that overtaking a cyclist and overtaking a horse/pony are not exactly the same, you have to take into account whether the animal is easily spooked or not. With a cyclist you can drop a gear and accelerate past quickly without fearing that the noise will spook the cyclist.

I love it when I'm out cycling and some knob in their car drops a gear and speeds past me. Yeah sometimes I get spooked with them flying past me but sure they're in a hurry and what right have I to be there anyhow?

conor2469

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I love it when I'm out cycling and some knob in their car drops a gear and speeds past me. Yeah sometimes I get spooked with them flying past me

You're a cyclist and you get startled when cars overtake you? What speed does a car have to overtake you at in order for you to feel comfortable?

Seth Brundle wrote: »

but sure they're in a hurry and what right have I to be there anyhow?

I never said anything of the sort, more over sensitive overreactions :rolleyes:

ohnonotgmail

pufyagkx7szm43 wrote: »

I have no intention of instructing you on how to join the dots between road traffic legislation and the Rules of the Road - do your own research!
But to help you on your way, look up the tractor driver in Mayo back in 2015, I wonder how he ended up with a driving ban "shure its only the ROTR, show me the legislation I say"

get over yourself. The rules of the road are not legislation. The contents of the RSA website are not legislation. they are an interpretation of legislation along with advice from the RSA. And at that they are not always a correct interpretation. So until you can provide a link to the actual legislation that supports what you are saying i'll just have to ignore you.

Seth Brundle

conor2469 wrote: »

You're a cyclist and you get startled when cars overtake you? What speed does a car have to overtake you in order for you to feel comfortable?

Sit yourself on a bicycle and see how it feels for arseholes to zoom past you with inches to spare.
Not all drivers are inconsiderate obviously but many are!

conor2469 wrote: »

I never said anything of the sort, more over sensitive overreactions :rolleyes:

I never said that you did :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

I'd also suggest reading some of the posts on the Near Misses thread in the cycling forum...
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/post/107544679

conor2469

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Sit yourself on a bicycle and see how it feels for arseholes to zoom past you with inches to spare.
Not all drivers are inconsiderate obviously but many are!

I cycle part of my commute 5 days a week and have experienced what you speak of, But in my original post I was referring to considerate drivers in the encounter I described.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I never said that you did :rolleyes:

Fair enough, I assumed it was aimed at me because you were quoting my message

glic71rods46t0

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

get over yourself. The rules of the road are not legislation. The contents of the RSA website are not legislation. they are an interpretation of legislation along with advice from the RSA. And at that they are not always a correct interpretation. So until you can provide a link to the actual legislation that supports what you are saying i'll just have to ignore you.

Ignore away - thats what the tractor driver did. You have a very immature understanding of how the law works. Your simplistic binary world wouldn't need lawyers or case law at all ... I wonder what the judges use to interpret road traffic legislation? You know those loosely defined sections and phrases like "careless" "dangerous" and a list of other such phrases? - You're welcome!;)

ohnonotgmail

pufyagkx7szm43 wrote: »

Ignore away - thats what the tractor driver did. You have a very immature understanding of how the law works. Your simplistic binary world wouldn't need lawyers or case law at all ... I wonder what the judges use to interpret road traffic legislation? You know those loosely defined sections and phrases like "careless" "dangerous" and a list of other such phrases? - You're welcome!;)

well they certainly dont use the contents of the RSA website. They look at primary legislation. Something you seem unable to provide.

glic71rods46t0

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well they certainly dont use the contents of the RSA website. They look at primary legislation. Something you seem unable to provide.

I simply don't believe you need any more help joining the dots ... you are feigning ignorance now ... you probably drive a tractor:D

gmacww

Kamili wrote: »

A motorist Must yield to a horse on the road if requested by the person in control of the animal.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print

So if I dress my bike up as a pony...

Kamili

gmacww wrote: »

So if I dress my bike up as a pony...

Neigh Bother to you!

pufyagkx7szm43 wrote: »

Usual anti motorit nonsense being peddled I see... Rules of the Road are legally enforceable and sets the expectations of road users regarding their behaviour on the road. There would be simply no point in having "Rules of the Road" if they weren't (1) Rules and (2) enforceable.
Horseriders and all slow moving traffic including cyclists and tractors have an obligation to pull in to avoid the build up of traffic

there was that tractor driver that was fined and banned for causing an excessive tailback.. Given it was 7km, but still.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/tractor-driver-banned-over-7km-traffic-tailback-1.2177126

Seth Brundle

Kamili wrote: »

there was that tractor driver that was fined and banned for causing an excessive tailback.. Given it was 7km, but still.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/tractor-driver-banned-over-7km-traffic-tailback-1.2177126

You can't compare a tractor driver holding people up over several kms and refusing to pull in despite loads of opportunities against a procession of pony trekkers, many of whom are possibly novices, travelling what we can safely assume would be a short distance. Because it held up drivers briefly does not mean it's the same as the reported court case!