Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse...

Orebro

182 taxi charging in Blackpool in Cork, pulling a massive 22kw on the FCP. Driver probably chilling in McDonalds have a bite. I give in, I need a Rex.

ELM327

#rapidgate yo?

unkel

Orebro wrote: »

182 taxi charging in Blackpool in Cork, pulling a massive 22kw on the FCP. Driver probably chilling in McDonalds have a bite. I give in, I need a Rex CCS charging EV and the Ionity chargers.

FYP

But imagine having a L40 starting a charge and another one waiting. You'd be there for 4 hours

With all those new L40 on the road, public fast charging will be dire until the Ionity chargers are installed. Wasn't one meant to go in this summer?

jhegarty

With only one working CCS in Cork city at the moment you need a Rex or lots of time on your hands.

unkel

jhegarty wrote: »

With only one working CCS in Cork city at the moment you need a Rex or lots of time on your hands.

Or not fast charge in Cork.

liamog

The recent ESB tender for new EV Charging equipment included requests for 24kW DC Chargers.

Imagine pulling into a charger and finding a rapidgate leaf charging at 22kW on the 50kW Efacec whilst the secondary 24kW charging sits idly mocking you.

unkel

liamog wrote: »

The recent ESB tender for new EV Charging equipment included requests for 24kW DC Chargers.

WTF?

If they are installing any chargers with our tax payers money, they should be installing 175kW / 350kW chargers, not 24kW ones :mad:

_dof_

Maybe they're planning to replace the 22kW AC SCPs with 24kW DC chargers so that everyone has the chance to get higher charge rates, not just the Zoes and Teslas. Wouldn't need any new electrical upgrades, and probably a lot cheaper than higher power FCPs.

Or maybe they'll install them beside the Ionity CCS chargers as Leaf 2 rapidgate chargers, since we'll only be pulling 22kW from them anyway, and all the Ioniq owners can sneer at us as they charge up at 70kW

unkel

_dof_ wrote: »

Or maybe they'll install them beside the Ionity CCS chargers as Leaf 2 rapidgate chargers, since we'll only be pulling 22kW from them anyway, and all the Ioniq owners can sneer at us as they charge up at 70kW

Almost 80kW it looks like on the latest 175kW chargers FastNed have installed in the Netherlands. Quite likely the same on the Ionity chargers

ELM327

22kW DC chargers are great as slow chargers as they are not that much slower than fast chargers for most cars (Ioniq and Tesla excepted) but are much less costly.

Put a row of them in Blanch and Lucan!

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

22kW DC chargers are great as slow chargers as they are not that much slower than fast chargers for most cars (Ioniq and Tesla excepted) but are much less costly.

Put a row of them in Blanch and Lucan!

That's a bit backwards, the 50kW chargers are already a bit slow by todays standards. The Leaf 40 is likely to be the last car released that can't break the 50kW charging mark.

ELM327

To clarify, I'm not supporting them as a means of fast charging, but as a means of mild fast charging (IE go shopping for one hour at a 22kW point and most EVs would receive over 50% of a recharge. Versus only 3-6kW at a 22kW AC point.

Fast chargers installed today should be 100kW at a minimum.

liamog

Ah OK, that's what 50kW chargers are for, you plug in your car whilst shopping for an hour.

* for 60kWh cars sold in 2019+

zilog_jones

I really don't think taxi drivers should be using free public chargers.

Orebro

zilog_jones wrote: »

I really don't think taxi drivers should be using free public chargers.

Careful - I’ve made that point in the past and got lambasted for it. The whole “every Km driven on EV is a good Km” brigade will use this statement as a blank cheque for anything. A few instances of them meeting taxi L40s at FCPs sucking only 22Kw will make them change their tune.

Typical government shortsightedness though - introduce a scheme for taxis and neglect any scheme to make charging facilities available for them.

Turns out it’s been a complete failure: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/still-sucking-diesel-taxi-drivers-ignore-ross-s-electric-car-incentive-1.3566083

cruizer101

zilog_jones wrote: »

I really don't think taxi drivers should be using free public chargers.

Whats the alternative? Specific chargers for taxi's makes no sense.

And in terms of emissions taxi should be encouraged to use electric as there are generally driving in stop start traffic where the efficiency of electric is more pronounced. They are also often diesel which we should really be pushing people away from particularly in city centers.

liamog

cruizer101 wrote: »

Whats the alternative? Specific chargers for taxi's makes no sense.

And in terms of emissions taxi should be encouraged to use electric as there are generally driving in stop start traffic where the efficiency of electric is more pronounced. They are also often diesel which we should really be pushing people away from particularly in city centers.

I agree, Taxi's make excellent customers for town/city charging hubs. Meaning they're more likely to be viable sooner.

Let's face it, the guy who rapid charges 4 times in a year is not going to do much to make a network viable.

zilog_jones

Orebro wrote: »

Careful - I’ve made that point in the past and got lambasted for it. The whole “every Km driven on EV is a good Km” brigade will use this statement as a blank cheque for anything. A few instances of them meeting taxi L40s at FCPs sucking only 22Kw will make them change their tune.

Typical government shortsightedness though - introduce a scheme for taxis and neglect any scheme to make charging facilities available for them.

Turns out it’s been a complete failure: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/still-sucking-diesel-taxi-drivers-ignore-ross-s-electric-car-incentive-1.3566083

When they're driving the cars for profit, using the public charging system (while it's free) just seems like they're gaming the system. The fact this thread exists suggests there's a problem with capacity.

If the government really cared about air quality in urban environments they could just ban diesel taxis. Many countries have been using LPG and other stuff for years - sure, still fossil fuels, but not diesel, and while the EV charging infrastructure isn't good enough it would be better than the current situation. A lot of taxi drivers seem to be switching to hybrids anyway.

Orebro

cruizer101 wrote: »

Whats the alternative? Specific chargers for taxi's makes no sense.

Of course it does - they need them multiple times per day. I wouldn’t get one right now if I were a taxi driver - time is money in that game and sitting queuing at the limited number of FCPs is a no no.

Use part of the grant money to let them install their own rapid chargers wherever their HQ is - taxi companies in the UK do this and they don’t depend on the public system.

cruizer101

Would it not be better to use the money to put in chargers for everyone rather than for specific people.
I'd also be of opinion everyone should pay to charge at public charge points regardless of taxi or member of public.

ELM327

Orebro wrote: »

Of course it does - they need them multiple times per day. I wouldn’t get one right now if I were a taxi driver - time is money in that game and sitting queuing at the limited number of FCPs is a no no.

Use part of the grant money to let them install their own rapid chargers wherever their HQ is - taxi companies in the UK do this and they don’t depend on the public system.

There's a 100% EV taxi company that had a leaf with nearly 200k miles on it.
They installed their own fast chargers

liamog

Orebro wrote: »

Of course it does - they need them multiple times per day. I wouldn’t get one right now if I were a taxi driver - time is money in that game and sitting queuing at the limited number of FCPs is a no no.

Use part of the grant money to let them install their own rapid chargers wherever their HQ is - taxi companies in the UK do this and they don’t depend on the public system.

A Leaf40 Taxi will start the day with around 250km of range. One rapid charge to 80% will add another 190km, are there that many taxis that are covering over 400km in a single day?

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

A Leaf40 Taxi will start the day with around 250km of range. One rapid charge to 80% will add another 190km, are there that many taxis that are covering over 400km in a single day?

There's a guy on Youtube that has a l40 as a taxi in the UK and says that bar once in a blue moon airport run he never exceeds the range of the car in a day.

cros13

Multi-rapid sites would handle the taxi issue, congestion and reliability. But that's not on the cards because of the grid connection requirements and the works required.

ELM327 wrote: »

There's a 100% EV taxi company that had a leaf with nearly 200k miles on it.
They installed their own fast chargers

They got the rapid free from nissan with their eNV200s. There was a deal 2-3 years ago where if you bought four eNV200 you got a free DBT 50kW fitted by Nissan to your business premises.

ted1

liamog wrote: »

cruizer101 wrote: »

Whats the alternative? Specific chargers for taxi's makes no sense.

And in terms of emissions taxi should be encouraged to use electric as there are generally driving in stop start traffic where the efficiency of electric is more pronounced. They are also often diesel which we should really be pushing people away from particularly in city centers.

I agree, Taxi's make excellent customers for town/city charging hubs. Meaning they're more likely to be viable sooner.

Let's face it, the guy who rapid charges 4 times in a year is not going to do much to make a network viable.

That’s exactly what ESBs London contract was for. Taxis !!

liamog

cros13 wrote: »

Multi-rapid sites would handle the taxi issue, congestion and reliability. But that's not on the cards because of the grid connection requirements and the works required.

A 350kW charger is about the same as a B&Q Superstore.

Using a Chargepoint Express Plus that could be 8 CCS + CHAdeMO stations and a power cube with 4 extra modules.
That's 4 cars charging at up to 62.5kW and 4 cars at 31.25kW for a total of 375kW. When the system is under full load cars can use more of the available power.

Orebro

liamog wrote: »

A Leaf40 Taxi will start the day with around 250km of range. One rapid charge to 80% will add another 190km, are there that many taxis that are covering over 400km in a single day?

Taxi men & women will go well out of their way to get “cheap” diesel, so I could see the same ones doing most of their charging on the free rapids.

cros13

liamog wrote: »

A 350kW charger is about the same as a B&Q Superstore.

Sure... but majority of the existing sites have either 70 or 100kW supplies. Existing cable in ductwork would need to be replaced. Some ducts widened.
Many of the substations don't have the spare capacity and would need to be upgraded.

The infrastructure work will almost certainly cost more than the rapids.... in a perfect world the rapid sites would be moved to better locations closer to the high voltage network to allow for expansion to multiple 350kW+ rapids.

But the money isn't there... Considering EV owners paying 100 times the cost of the electricity still wouldn't cover running costs of the current network and no commercial network could hope to be viable until we had 50-100 times the number of EVs we currently have on the road... we need the money to come from government funds.

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

no commercial network could hope to be viable until we had 50-100 times the number of EVs we currently have

Yet here Ionity comes. Costing not a cent to the Irish tax payer

Same with Fastned in the Netherlands (and expanding). They've never made a profit but were also never paid for with government funds

Orebro

unkel wrote: »

Yet here Ionity comes. Costing not a cent to the Irish tax payer

Same with Fastned in the Netherlands (and expanding). They've never made a profit but were also never paid for with government funds

You've mentioned these Ionity guys alot unkel - any indication yet on where they are going to site the chargers, how many of them, when are they coming etc?

unkel

I started a dedicated thread on Ionity, it's probably a few pages down from the top of this forum

Summary: there will be 9 Ionity chargers in Ireland before the end of next year. I think it was Mad_Lad who said the first one in Ireland will be installed this summer. All are 175kW (and 350kW ready). All at least 4 charging points per site, all CCS only. Locations:

JackieChan

Looking at that picture of Ireland, if it is somewhat accurate then the approx locations for the 9 seem good. There is a real need for some in the middle to cover the midpoints of main routes(maybe Carlow area(for M9),Portlaoise(for M7/M8), Athlone(M6) at a minimum.
And if possible extend to Longford(N4/N5) and Cavan(N3) and maybe Monaghan(N2)

FriendsEV

unkel wrote: »

I started a dedicated thread on Ionity, it's probably a few pages down from the top of this forum

Summary: there will be 9 Ionity chargers in Ireland before the end of next year. I think it was Mad_Lad who said the first one in Ireland will be installed this summer. All are 175kW (and 350kW ready). All at least 4 charging points per site, all CCS only. Locations:

Looks good

Hopefully they charge enough to put off the freeloaders

30-40c Kwh or minute etc

Otherwise people will take the piss

unkel

JackieChan wrote: »

Looking at that picture of Ireland, if it is somewhat accurate then the approx locations for the 9 seem good. There is a real need for some in the middle to cover the midpoints of main routes(maybe Carlow area(for M9),Portlaoise(for M7/M8), Athlone(M6) at a minimum.
And if possible extend to Longford(N4/N5) and Cavan(N3) and maybe Monaghan(N2)

Couldn't agree more. My only gripe with Ionity is that the locations seem to be in or near the biggest cities with nothing in between them

There is no point having a charger in Dublin and a charger in Cork when you want to drive from Dublin to Cork and there is no charger in the middle and your car can't do anywhere near 250km at 130km/h

Not sure what they were thinking there. Maybe profitability with lots of locals from Dublin with no home charging charging up in Dublin, etc? Or maybe just presuming all EVs from 2018 onwards will be able to easily do that trip without stopping to charge? The 2018 Hyundai Kona EV (a budget vehicle) has a WLTP range of 470km after all. Not much point in dwelling on first generation EVs like Leaf or even second generation EVs like Ioniq when you look at the future that is here already...

liamog

cros13 wrote: »

Sure... but majority of the existing sites have either 70 or 100kW supplies. Existing cable in ductwork would need to be replaced. Some ducts widened.
Many of the substations don't have the spare capacity and would need to be upgraded.

The infrastructure work will almost certainly cost more than the rapids.... in a perfect world the rapid sites would be moved to better locations closer to the high voltage network to allow for expansion to multiple 350kW+ rapids.

But the money isn't there... Considering EV owners paying 100 times the cost of the electricity still wouldn't cover running costs of the current network and no commercial network could hope to be viable until we had 50-100 times the number of EVs we currently have on the road... we need the money to come from government funds.

Not saying it's going to be cheap, and I don't really care about the current sites (for the most part).
I also have no issue with government funds covering the setup costs.

Both the UK and Norway provide 75% capital grants without clawback. This is probably the best funding model for now, and should be administered by TII.


There has to be a magic number where X% occupancy plus N chargers and a convenience store / coffee shop make sense.

Fastned have an interesting article on how they see it, and the reasons why faster charging makes it more rather than less economical.

https://fastned.nl/en/blog/post/fast-charging-station-capacity-and-economies-of-scale

Del2005

Orebro wrote: »

Use part of the grant money to let them install their own rapid chargers wherever their HQ is - taxi companies in the UK do this and they don’t depend on the public system.

There are no taxi companies in this country, they are mostly all privately owned and some hire a radio from a company. But the taxi won't be parked at any company when idle it'll be outside the drivers home.

unkel

liamog wrote: »

There has to be a magic number where X% occupancy plus N chargers and a convenience store / coffee shop make sense.

Fastned have an interesting article on how they see it, and the reasons why faster charging makes it more rather than less economical.

https://fastned.nl/en/blog/post/fast-charging-station-capacity-and-economies-of-scale

You are losing yourself in the details there. The bigger picture is that everyone now realises we will all be driving EVs shortly. And they will make the providers big money

Even the likes of big oil are now very keen to jump onto the bandwagon. BP (#5 oil giant in the world) has bought chargemaster with 50000 EV chargers in the UK and they plan to "BP to install fast chargers at every filling station in the UK"

Linky


Shell (#3 in the world) is joining Ionity

#1 and #2 are Chinese. Say no more - they are going EV everything faster than anyone else in the world

liamog

Did you not hear, it cost's eleventy billion dollars to install any kind of EV charging infrastructure in Ireland. Wheres a standard network substation for a supermarket comes free with a pack of cornflakes.