Constructive dismissal

redzerdrog

Hi all just looking for opinion on the following situation.

I have been with my company since 2011 and have been in a management position since August 2013. Although in a management position I only have a level 7 qualification (ordinary degree) however have the opportunity to begin a level 9 masters this September. The problem is my company will not allow me to complete this.

Please have a look at the following timeline and although not directly linked I feel it is impacting on my development.

May 2015 - interim senior manager positions are advertised with the criteria of 2 years managerial experience and a level 7 qualification. I applied for this at the time and received feedback from HR that although I just fell short of the criteria this time the positions were only interim and when the permanent positions were available in 6 months time I would meet the criteria and would be able to apply.

March 2016 - permanent senior management positions available however criteria changed to 3 years managerial experience and level 7. Again I am a few months short on the criteria so did not apply.

September 2017 - I now have 4 years managerial experience under my belt. Senior management position becomes available however the criteria has changed yet again. This time it is 5 years managerial experience and a level 8 degree which again I do not meet the criteria for.

I now have the 5 years experience but I am not being allowed gain the further qualification necessary to further my career.

I have now managed to get into a masters course which requires me to attend from 2-6 one day a week. I went to the company to see what supports were available for this as a colleague has recently completed a similar masters were the company contributed towards the cost and allowed him one full day off (paid) each week to attend same.

The feedback I got was financially the company was not in a position to facilitate same for me. This was fine and I explored the option of using annual leave to help me attend the course. I was also open to working up hours on other days to help this. It worked out at 48hours this term and 60 hours the following which I would be out of office. I did not feel this was an unreasonable request however the company have stated they will not allow me to use my annual leave to attend college.

There is personal reasons and other stuff which the company are aware of that means it is unlikely I would be able to complete this course on a later time.

I feel like I have no other choice but to leave as a result of this and wondering do you think this is a case on constructive dismissal?

Thank you in advance for any feedback

TG1

No. You are not being forced to leave your job. It's not constructive dismissal unless it is impossible for you to continue working there.

Not liking the fact that you haven't got a promotion in a few years is not constructive dismissal. If it was sure we would all be taking every company we ever worked for to court...

redzerdrog

TG1 wrote: »

No. You are not being forced to leave your job. It's not constructive dismissal unless it is impossible for you to continue working there.

Not liking the fact that you haven't got a promotion in a few years is not constructive dismissal. If it was sure we would all be taking every company we ever worked for to court...

Thank you for your feedback. Given that to further my career I need an additional qualification, have made a reasonable request regarding a solution for completing same yet being stopped for no logical reason, do you think this is an issue?

TG1

Companies are not legally obliged to provide educational assistance, or to facilitate you around time off for it.

It's a nice thing to do and in my opinion most should be doing it as it's a relatively cost effective retention tool, but it's not a legal obligation.

Obviously, in terms of do you have a case to take, your solicitor is the one to talk to, i can't give you legal advice. but my opinion is that if this came across my desk having been accepted by the WRC I'd wonder what they had been smoking at the time....

tayto lover

Seems like they have you doing the same work for less pay than you'd get with the qualification you are seeking and that suits them
If you got the higher qualification they'd have to give you more money.

redzerdrog

I am struggling with this because there is no reasonable explanation. I am expected to be flexible in my role and complete additional roles outside of my primary job yet when looking for a small bit of flexibility back it is not facilitated.

Further to this the Masters course I am completing I technically do not meet the criteria for however have gained entry through an exceptional entry route. It is likely the only opportunity I will have to complete this and the company are aware of this. I have looked at the possibility on a level 8 course however this would require even more time off.

I feel like if I want to further my career I have no other option but to resign my current position to complete the masters

JustAThought

Perhaps your colleagues course or his /her experience combined with the course was more useful/valuable to them. You want to get ahead and want to be promoted but the bar is being continually raised - thats the way ot goes with ever increasing levels of educated people entering the workforce. You can bet old HR or managers hadnt half the qualifications wrle have today. Your issue is that you are less qualified and therefore less able to compete than your colleagues or new entrants - finding a course that you can do in your own time after hours and self fund should be your focus - not giving up a managerial job and compromising your future with frivilous court cases with a predictable unsuccessful outcome. Jealousy - however well intended and well motivated - and ambition are not reasons for constructive dismissal nor is your emploter in any way obliged to compromise their operations or service by allowing a manager to be missing one day per week or unavailable at peak hours when they are needed. .

screamer

Something's amiss there OP. It's not constructive dismissal but someone definitely wants to keep their boot on your head. With that much experience best advise is to move company. With experience like that, you'll find a job easily and TBH if it's that hard to climb the ladder in your current company you'll get fed up in the end and resent it.

davo10

Are the same criteria being applied to all applicants for the managerial positions? If they are, it's hard to see how this could be construed as CD, they are not forcing you out of your current job nor discriminating against you. Employers can set the minimum criteria required for job applications, but they must be applied to all applicants. In relation to the extra time off to study, unless it says that you are entitled to it in your contract, then as long as they are abiding by the T&cs and not forcing you out of your current job, can't see how it's CD, you have no right to a promotion as long as they don't discriminate against you.

I agree with the above, sounds like they keep raising the bar to keep you out, but as long as they stick to the criteria when hiring, probably not a lot you can do.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

redzerdrog

JustAThought wrote: »

Perhaps your colleagues course or his /her experience combined with the course was more useful/valuable to them. You want to get ahead and want to be promoted but the bar is being continually raised - thats the way ot goes with ever increasing levels of educated people entering the workforce. You can bet old HR or managers hadnt half the qualifications wrle have today. Your issue is that you are less qualified and therefore less able to compete than your colleagues or new entrants - finding a course that you can do in your own time after hours and self fund should be your focus - not giving up a managerial job and compromising your future with frivilous court cases with a predictable unsuccessful outcome. Jealousy - however well intended and well motivated - and ambition are not reasons for constructive dismissal nor is your emploter in any way obliged to compromise their operations or service by allowing a manager to be missing one day per week or unavailable at peak hours when they are needed. .

The colleague was a level behind when he began same. He is now on the same level but the external opportunities which are opening up to him are eye watering. There is certainly no jealousy regarding this as each case is individual.

The operation would in no way be compromised as I have two able deputies that have proven their ability to deputise in my absence. I also complete an additional duty which no other other manager completes this has be out of office 1-3 days per month and my department functions just fine in my absence. I could reduce this responsibility as it is not what I am contracted to do and another manager with less responsibility but on same level could take on to free me up. This the argument that the department can't function without during these times doesn't stack up.

Unfortunately there is no available course in this area that I can do outside of working hours so it is not an option for me.

redzerdrog

screamer wrote: »

Something's amiss there OP. It's not constructive dismissal but someone definitely wants to keep their boot on your head. With that much experience best advise is to move company. With experience like that, you'll find a job easily and TBH if it's that hard to climb the ladder in your current company you'll get fed up in the end and resent it.

Exactly my thinking

Damien360

It is an odd company that continues to look at education as a criteria for management so long after you are hired. I can understand for new starters.

For example I work in a field in which all of us have either degrees, masters and a few pHD's. Degrees and Masters do principally the same job and some of those have progressed based on ability after a few years and not on education. The pHD people tend to walk into higher support positions but not management. In fact many of them wouldn't have the personality for management.

Education gets you a start but it doesn't have any say on further progression. I'm sure there are fields where this doesn't always apply for technical ability (doctor sticks out) but management doesn't normally get included here.

As for your question, my employer also offers education assistance but it is as a business need only and not as a employee need. It tends to be reserved for those longer term employed. So applying this to you, the company could argue it's not a business need and therefore not have to assist you financially and if the time off does not suit the business, they may refuse extended leave at this time. Not constructive dismissal at all.

sexmag

screamer wrote: »

Something's amiss there OP. It's not constructive dismissal but someone definitely wants to keep their boot on your head. With that much experience best advise is to move company. With experience like that, you'll find a job easily and TBH if it's that hard to climb the ladder in your current company you'll get fed up in the end and resent it.

Second this.

Have a meeting with HR and tell them your grievance, you want to educate yourself to stay with the company and climb their corporate ladder but they are making it impossible, if they can't see you halfway then they will lose a long term experienced employee

redzerdrog

davo10 wrote: »

Are the same criteria being applied to all applicants for the managerial positions? If they are, it's hard to see how this could be construed as CD, they are not forcing you out of your current job nor discriminating against you. Employers can set the minimum criteria required for job applications, but they must be applied to all applicants. In relation to the extra time off to study, unless it says that you are entitled to it in your contract, then as long as they are abiding by the T&cs and not forcing you out of your current job, can't see how it's CD, you have no right to a promotion as long as they don't discriminate against you.

I agree with the above, sounds like they keep raising the bar to keep you out, but as long as they stick to the criteria when hiring, probably not a lot you can do.

This is interesting thank you.

redzerdrog

sexmag wrote: »

Second this.

Have a meeting with HR and tell them your grievance, you want to educate yourself to stay with the company and climb their corporate ladder but they are making it impossible, if they can't see you halfway then they will lose a long term experienced employee

Done this. HR manager agreed with me but the decision wasn't theirs to make. They advocated on my behalf but unfortunately unsuccessful. I have asked if there is an appeals process regarding the decision I can utilise or can I discuss case with the board of management.

fritzelly

Where are they hiring from? Internally or externally - qualifications don't usually matter much for experience and proven track record.

username2013

What industry is this in OP? Relying on education rather than performance in the company seems odd to me.

_Brian

Three points.
1, you haven’t left your job, a CD case can only be taken after that.
2, you must before you leave utilise every avenue of all appeal etc available before leaving
3, you will need to prove beyond doubt that you were left with absolutely no other option but to leave your job. That it would have been impossible to continue working there.

Maybe I’m Missing something but are you just not saying that you must leave because they won’t pay for further education. That’s never going to float.

redzerdrog

_Brian wrote: »

Three points.
1, you haven’t left your job, a CD case can only be taken after that.
2, you must before you leave utilise every avenue of all appeal etc available before leaving
3, you will need to prove beyond doubt that you were left with absolutely no other option but to leave your job. That it would have been impossible to continue working there.

Maybe I’m Missing something but are you just not saying that you must leave because they won’t pay for further education. That’s never going to float.

No that's not what I am saying at all

I am looking to utilize my annual leave to facilitate me attending further education, there is no rational explanation for the refusal of this request. I need the qualification to progress they are pretty much stopping me from gaining it

LegacyUser

redzerdrog wrote: »

No that's not what I am saying at all

I am looking to utilize my annual leave to facilitate me attending further education, there is no rational explanation for the refusal of this request. I need the qualification to progress they are pretty much stopping me from gaining it

I'd just take my annual leave and pay out of my own pocket. What you do on your own time is none of their concern. No point in fighting a losing battle as it will own lead to increased frustration.

davo10

redzerdrog wrote: »

No that's not what I am saying at all

I am looking to utilize my annual leave to facilitate me attending further education, there is no rational explanation for the refusal of this request. I need the qualification to progress they are pretty much stopping me from gaining it

Would you only be using your annual leave or would additional unpaid leave be required to attend the course? You don't plan to take any holidays at all while you are doing the course?

The dates on which annual leave is taken is at the discretion of your employer so there isn't anything in this which constitutes constructive dismissal.

sexmag

_Brian wrote: »

Three points.
1, you haven’t left your job, a CD case can only be taken after that.
2, you must before you leave utilise every avenue of all appeal etc available before leaving
3, you will need to prove beyond doubt that you were left with absolutely no other option but to leave your job. That it would have been impossible to continue working there.

Maybe I’m Missing something but are you just not saying that you must leave because they won’t pay for further education. That’s never going to float.

His point is he wants to move up in the company, every time an opportunity opens they up the requirements to be accepted for that role, the latest one requires a new degree, he wants to get that degree but they won't allow him time to do it so effectively are putting him a position where he will never be able to get a promotion I.e. stuck in a dead end role.

I fully understand ops predicament

fritzelly

Time to move on if you can't move up - experience says more about you than words on a paper if you can sell it in an interview

redzerdrog

davo10 wrote: »

Would you only be using your annual leave or would additional unpaid leave be required to attend the course? You don't plan to take any holidays at all while you are doing the course?

The dates on which annual leave is taken is at the discretion of your employer so there isn't anything in this which constitutes constructive dismissal.

As said I would need to use 48 hours of annual leave this year and 60 hours next year this is out of my entitlement of 240hours per year. As said I don't think this is unreasonable or would negatively impact on the rest of my leave

davo10

redzerdrog wrote: »

As said I would need to use 48 hours of annual leave this year and 60 hours next year this is out of my entitlement of 240hours per year. As said I don't think this is unreasonable or would negatively impact on the rest of my leave

It is very reasonable, I agree with you 100%. But unfortunately your employer can reject your request for leave to attend the course and it wouldn't amount to CD. Legally they are doing nothing wrong, but it would seem they are telling you that they will not promote you. Maybe time to look for pastures new where you will be more appreciated.

redzerdrog

davo10 wrote: »

It is very reasonable, I agree with you 100%. But unfortunately your employer can reject your request for leave to attend the course and it wouldn't amount to CD. Legally they are doing nothing wrong, but it would seem they are telling you that they will not promote you. Maybe time to look for pastures new where you will be more appreciated.

Thanks for the feedback. I just wanted to assess my options. Think it is time to move on regardless which is unfortunate. It's not even about promotion for me it's is more my continuous professional development is being impacted unfairly.

Glass fused light

redzerdrog wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback. I just wanted to assess my options. Think it is time to move on regardless which is unfortunate. It's not even about promotion for me it's is more my continuous professional development is being impacted unfairly.

It's not CD to not promote you nor to refuse to give you time off to gain further educational qualifications as your ability to do your current job is not being negatively impacted by the behaviour of the company.

redzerdrog wrote: »

The colleague was a level behind when he began same. He is now on the same level but the external opportunities which are opening up to him are eye watering.

Unfortunately there is no available course in this area that I can do outside of working hours so it is not an option for me.

However here is your answer ^^ dust off the CV and start looking for a new job IMO you will not go any further up the ladder in your current company. Go looking for a role which will support you into the future, have a training plan and a reason as to why the Masters is good for your new company and that your ambition and work ethic need a position that you can currently fill and grow into.

Do your company have any process for internal management advancement or have a policy on training and education?
Were all the previous position filled internally of did they take in external candidates? If they took on external candidates you have no hope of moving up. If Senior management / HR is any good they would have looked at their pool of potentials for the first job and set the bar to include the likely internal candidate(s), moving the goal posts on the second round excluded you again. Either you are doing too good a job in your current role and the bosses don't want the hassle of a change over and don't think you will leave or you have been been disregarded for some other reason.

Is the person who was supported in the CPD still employed? Sometimes the company loose the employee as they had not planned on the career path needed to retain the better qualified person and expected them to sit still after doing the work for the qualification. It could also be that this employee has been picked for the new roll and a position has been tailored around this?

redzerdrog wrote: »

There is certainly no jealousy regarding this as each case is individual.

Its not individual in a well run organisation who want to grow their management team and have internal promotions. They funded 1/5 of the salary cost of that employee and won't even give you the time off to do the course on your own time and money. QED move.

_Brian

sexmag wrote: »

His point is he wants to move up in the company, every time an opportunity opens they up the requirements to be accepted for that role, the latest one requires a new degree, he wants to get that degree but they won't allow him time to do it so effectively are putting him a position where he will never be able to get a promotion I.e. stuck in a dead end role.

I fully understand ops predicament

But there’s no responsibility on the employer to provide advancement nor facilitate further education. Annual leave timing is at the discretion of the employer.

So the employer while being inflexible is doing absolutely nothing wrong.

And somehow the employee thinks they are being pushed out ??

redzerdrog

Thank you all for your feedback pretty clear it is not a case for constructive dismissal.

One more kind of related question but could I apply for parental leave for 0.5 days a week during this period? If the company refuse this where do I stand?

dubrov

My understanding is that the employer is obliged to offer parental leave but may insist it is all taken in a single block.
So they could insist you take the 18 weeks in a single break

redzerdrog

dubrov wrote: »

My understanding is that the employer is obliged to offer parental leave but may insist it is all taken in a single block.
So they could insist you take the 18 weeks in a single break

Ok thanks for that. If there was precedent for employees taking one day per week would that have any impact?

davo10

redzerdrog wrote: »

Ok thanks for that. If there was precedent for employees taking one day per week would that have any impact?

No, leave dates are always at the discretion of the employer. For instance, if one employee gets the first two weeks of July off, it doesn't mean everyone else has the right to the same two weeks off.

redzerdrog

Ok so am I getting this right that I have a statutory entitlement to parental leave however the company decide when and how this is facilitated?

Not sure if this makes and difference to the entitlement but have 3 kids aged 4, 2 and 12weeks have never used any parental leave but took my 2 week paternity

davo10

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/parental_leave.html

redzerdrog

Thanks for that I can't see them facilitating it but i will at least try. A number of managers have similar arrangements being facilitated at present though.

Any other options that I haven't thought of yet?

Damien360

redzerdrog wrote: »

Thanks for that I can't see them facilitating it but i will at least try. A number of managers have similar arrangements being facilitated at present though.

Any other options that I haven't thought of yet?

You are clutching at straws. You need to find another employer or you will end up bitter and damage your long term reputation.

redzerdrog

Damien360 wrote: »

You are clutching at straws. You need to find another employer or you will end up bitter and damage your long term reputation.

That is the plan but don't want to jump to the wrong job. I fully intend on moving but need to make sure it is the right move and location is quite important.

I am clutching at straws at the minute because I am looking for a solution to begin the course in September and also give me enough time to find the right move

beauf

I think there is another way of looking at this. I worked in a few places with similar issues and usually it's about the work people are doing. High profile work get promotions and training, the low profile didn't. The Solution was to switch teams and jobs and even departments within the company to move away from the low profile jobs.

The low profile and high profile jobs might be equally important. But if one is getting all the attention and another isn't then you have to move.

I might make the low profile jobs difficult to get get done though. As everyone moves out of them and no one will do them. But that's not the employees problem.

It also means you might promote people who actually want to cherry pick the work they are willing to do. But then that's the management culture this creates.

beauf

Also you might consider getting your own training outside of work. Make yourself more attractive to other employers.

I think you are wasting you time with your current managers and company in trying to use parental leave and stuff.
That's making too much of a song and dance about it. You need to blind side them with a move internally or externally.
Often being able to produce new qualifications, can allow you to jump sideways.

runawaybishop

redzerdrog wrote: »

Thank you all for your feedback pretty clear it is not a case for constructive dismissal.

One more kind of related question but could I apply for parental leave for 0.5 days a week during this period? If the company refuse this where do I stand?

Parental leave can be cancelled if it is not to look after a kid, so tread carefully.