Bus Connects Effects on South Dublin/North Wicklow

Stephen15

I know a few other about bus connects in specific areas so I decided to make focusing on my own area as there hadn't already been one made. I'm focusing particularly on the Stillorgan, Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock and Bray areas for this thread. But I will talk about a few more in the general South County, North Wicklow and Dublin 18 areas.

General Scope
-The new spine which will serve the area will be the E spine which will run from Ballymun to Foxrock Church. Route E1 will run to Bray similar to the 145 does presently and route E2 will terminate in DL similar to the 46a.

-New orbital routes include the S8 which will run from DL to Tallaght on a far more direct route than the current 75 every 20-25 mins. Also the new S6 and S7 will run from Blackrock to Tallaght taking slightly different route every 10-15 mins.

-New local routes include the 225 which run from DL to Dundrum every 10-15 mins and the 213 which will run from UCD to Bray every 40 mins via Enniskerry

Blackrock area
-Served by orbital routes S6 and S7 to Tallaght. Both will run at a combined frequency of what looks to be every 15 mins. Good to see that the QBC on Mount Merrion Ave. will get more usage as it will have a bus every 15 mins aswell as the Aircoach.

-New local routes for Blackrock will be the 226 and 227. The 226 will go to Kilternan taking a similar route to the 84 as far as Cornelscourt and then go take a similar route to the 63 as far Kilternan just not going via Ballyogoan which will be served by the 227 also going to Blackrock taking a similar route to the 63 as far as Abbey Road before then going via from TEK Roundabout via the link road and Carysfort Ave. to Blackrock.

-The new 7 will serve Blackrock not going via the village and will go to Glasnevin before branching off taking to different routes to Charlestown SC.

Dun Laoghaire Area
-Will be served by the E2 to Charlestown Shoppping Centre which will run on the E corridor from Foxrock Church to Ballymun and the new 7 corridor which will go from DL to Glasnevin before branching off and taking two different routes to serve Charlestown SC.

-The 75 will be replaced by the S8 taking a more direct route from DL to Tallaght every 20-25 mins and the 225 from DL to Dundrum every 10-15 mins.

-Route 222 will replace the 7 from Bride's Glen to DL every 10 to 15 mins and the 229 will replace the 111 serving Brides Glen, Louglinstown Hospital and Park before going on Churchview Rd. as far as Rochestown Ave. as far as Abbey Rd. before replacing the 63 as far as DL.

-The 45a will remain but instead going via Pearse Villas in Sallynoggin it will be re numbered the 211. The 59 will also remain but be re numbered the 221.

Bray and North Wicklow
-E1 will run from Northwood in Santry along the E spine as far as Foxrock Church before going on to Bray along the 145 routing and terminating at Bray Rail Station.

-Route 212 will replace the 145 from Bray DART station to Ballywaltrim every 10-15 mins

-Route 213 will go to UCD via Enniskerry every 40 mins running along the old 185 running to Enniskerry before going alone the old 44 routing as far as Sandyford and then turning right into the Industrial Estate and going to UCD via Stillorgan

-Routes 201 and 202 will replace the 84 and 184 in North Wicklow. Both will start and finish in Bray and going to Greystones every 20 mins. After Greystones both will divide taking clockwise and anti-clockwise loops serving the villages of Kilcoole, Delgany, Newtownmountkennedy and Newcastle. 201 will be clockwise every 40 mins and 202 will be anti clockwise every 40 mins.

-New circular route of Greystones the 204 will run every 30 mins



What are your thoughts on this project. The public consultation is now open here.

https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-public-consultation-report/

I think it is broadly good but to me a few things need a look at such as:

The 227 should go to DL along the 63 routing as the 63 is a popular bus to DL from places such as Ballygoan, Carrickmines, Cornelscourt and Cabinteely instead of taking a meandering route to Blackrock and it would make more sense if the 229 went to Blackrock along the 227 routing.

Also Bray won't have any direct link to the Luas apart from the 213 which takes a long route via Enniskerry and only runs every 40 mins.

You would think more new bus routes would serve Bride's Glen/Cherrywood considering the development going on up there. In my opinion it should have a bus every 20-30 mins to Bray. Perhaps it could be included as another terminus on the E spine which would have a different Northside terminus.

Awaaf

Thanks for this analysis. Plan looks good. Is there any convenient link to the new route maps? I did try to wade through the reports but didn't persevere.

Stephen15

Awaaf wrote: »

Thanks for this analysis. Plan looks good. Is there any convenient link to the new route maps? I did try to wade through the reports but didn't persevere.

It can be found here. All maps can be downloaded as a PDF zoom in if it's blurred at least that's what worked for me

https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-public-consultation-report/

LXFlyer

Chapter 7 is the relevant part of the report, which contains full detailed maps and, importantly, proposed frequencies at the end of it.

https://busconnects.ie/media/1239/chapter7recommendednetworkplan.pdf

I'd implore everyone to examine them carefully. read the detail and the frequencies, and compare the service with what you have now.

Some good changes, some not so good, but very important that everyone puts their views forward.

Survey is here:
https://www.research.net/r/BusConnects

Alternatively email consultations@busconnects.ie

Awaaf

Thanks for the links.

Here is my attempt to assess impacts. I am in the Monkstown Farm area. Please advise if any of this seems wrong.

The changes seem to increase frequency to DL at the Monkstown Ave end which is good. However the direct route to Blackrock via the existing 4 is severed with the route now seeming to be to go to DL on increased frequency and then 7 to Blackrock. This is an unfortunate bus-change on a short route.

The loss of the #4 as a direct route to town is a big loss with the route now either via the E-spine or the increased frequency to DL and then 7/DART or maybe increased links to the N11 and E-spine. I guess this is a classic example of the tradeoff of bus changes for frequency.

Big improvements in connectivity to Dundrum/Sandyford and Stillorgan are big plusses.

Dr. Bre

Anything effecting knocklyon area - Dublin 16?

LXFlyer

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Anything effecting knocklyon area - Dublin 16?

Plenty. The entire network is potentially changing.

Click the link above in my post above to chapter 7.

There’s detailed maps and proposed frequencies.

People seriously need to look at this in detail. You may risk losing direct bus services if you don’t take part in the survey. On the other hand you may like what’s proposed.

ted1

Shame that the E1 terminates in Northwood and doesn’t extend the extra 3km to the airport.

It’d be a real contender with the aircoach and and much cheaper

ted1

Shame that the E1 terminates in Northwood and doesn’t extend the extra 3km to the airport.

It’d be a real contender with the aircoach and and much cheaper

Stephen15

ted1 wrote: »

Shame that the E1 terminates in Northwood and doesn’t extend the extra 3km to the airport.

It’d be a real contender with the aircoach and and much cheaper

Airport to Bray might be a little long a route a suggestion I would make would be an E3 from Cherrywood to the Airport and/or Swords

patrickbrophy18

It looks like the 111 is set to be scrapped under these plans along with a number change to the 59 route.


Does this mean that Go Ahead will eventually cease operation of these routes?


Now, I will say that the 111 is a weak attempt at providing Dalkey with a connection to the Green Luas Line. So, I am now 100% convinced that they deliberately made the route convoluted to the point that no one would use it.


They might be making the network easier to understand. However, it looks like another Network Direct. Only this time, the amount of routes will be cut back significantly. Also, the scarcity of orbital routes will continue to be a problem.

Stephen15

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

It looks like the 111 is set to be scrapped under these plans along with a number change to the 59 route.


Does this mean that Go Ahead will eventually cease operation of these routes?


Now, I will say that the 111 is a weak attempt at providing Dalkey with a connection to the Green Luas Line. So, I am now 100% convinced that they deliberately made the route convoluted to the point that no one would use it.


They might be making the network easier to understand. However, it looks like another Network Direct. Only this time, the amount of routes will be cut back significantly. Also, the scarcity of orbital routes will continue to be a problem.

There are plenty of new local and orbital routes being introduced from some of the hubs such as Dun Laoghaire introduced.

Tbh Dalkey is a very low passenger generator on the DB network it could nearly be compared to the likes of Blessington, Skerries, Newcastle and some the other outlying on the current DB network. If an orbital or a radial route was to serve there it would have go out of it's way to serve there. Despite being a suburb of Dublin it does feel quite isolated and cut off from the rest of the city.

Luckily for Dalkey it has a high frequency railway line which is used by the majority of pt users in the vicinity meaning it's not quite as cut off as one might expect. The 111 and 59 in Dalkey are currently two bus routes which nearly only by OAPs and this will likely remain the case for any all day bus route serving the town/village. The 8 for example never carried very many to Dalkey in either it's original or more recent form.

The thing people from Dalkey will benefit also from improvements to Dublin's public transport including 10 minute DART frequency which will benefit directly and Bus Connects which will benefit Dalkey indirectly.

Eg. Patrick here wants to be able to get to Sandyford he can get a DART to DL every 10 mins and then change to an S8 orbital bus which comes every 20-25 mins. This will be a big benefit as if this journey was being made today you would likely have to get a DART to Black rock which comes every 15 mins and then a 114 bus which comes every 90 mins and if want to make this journey on a Sunday you're out of luck as the 114 doesn't even run on Sundays nor does the 111.

patrickbrophy18

Stephen15 wrote: »

There are plenty of new local and orbital routes being introduced from some of the hubs such as Dun Laoghaire introduced.

The only problem is that the only coastal hubs in the burrough of Dun Laoghaire Rathdown are Dun Laoghaire town itself and Blackrock. Then, there is a massive gap between Dun Laoghaire and Bray. I've long since thought of Dalkey as the last remaining piece of this jigsaw puzzle.


Unfortunately, there are too many oddball locals who want Dalkey to remain isolated because its a "heritage town". Dalkey should have really followed the example set by Blackrock from a functional and planning perspective instead of being airbrushed off the map and downgraded.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Tbh Dalkey is a very low passenger generator on the DB network it could nearly be compared to the likes of Blessington, Skerries, Newcastle and some the other outlying on the current DB network. If an orbital or a radial route was to serve there it would have go out of it's way to serve there. Despite being a suburb of Dublin it does feel quite isolated and cut off from the rest of the city.

So, you agree that it feels quite isolated and cut off from the rest of Dublin and you are advocating it at the same time. This is part of the problem. As long as there are advocates for its isolation, it will remain as such.



Isolation only creates more problems than it solves.



There is a wide range of reasons why bus services have failed and all of them appear to be either deliberate either by virtue of poor frequency or winding routes which fail to capitalize on existing infrastructure.


Also, if the current coastal bus network continues to revolve around Dun Laoghaire and Blackrock, then Dalkey would be considered out of the way. As I said above, Dalkey should be reconfigured into a self-sufficient commuting destination to avoid dependence on interchanges from the likes of Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire so that it isn't out of the way.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Luckily for Dalkey it has a high frequency railway line which is used by the majority of pt users in the vicinity meaning it's not quite as cut off as one might expect. The 111 and 59 in Dalkey are currently two bus routes which nearly only by OAPs and this will likely remain the case for any all day bus route serving the town/village. The 8 for example never carried very many to Dalkey in either it's original or more recent form.

I've said it numerous times and I will say it again, the DART only covers Northbound and Southbound journeys and doesn't cater for the demand for new travel patterns in the direction of the M50 where massive employment centers have sprung up.


If the 8 and 7D had been merged and turned into an all day service along the N11, I believe it could have taken off. Sadly, skepticism, a lack of will power and virtually zero outside the box thinking have failed to prove definitively if this is nonviable.



Services restricted to peak times or with a handful of journeys are obviously not going to gather patronage because they don't meet expectations set by all day services. So, naturally, all day services will win.

Stephen15 wrote: »

The thing people from Dalkey will benefit also from improvements to Dublin's public transport including 10 minute DART frequency which will benefit directly and Bus Connects which will benefit Dalkey indirectly.

Undoubtedly, they will benefit from a higher frequency DART. However, it is an improvement of what is there currently. It is very simple-minded to assume that this should continue being the de facto situation going forward as there will always be room for improvement.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Eg. Patrick here wants to be able to get to Sandyford he can get a DART to DL every 10 mins and then change to an S8 orbital bus which comes every 20-25 mins. This will be a big benefit as if this journey was being made today you would likely have to get a DART to Black rock which comes every 15 mins and then a 114 bus which comes every 90 mins and if want to make this journey on a Sunday you're out of luck as the 114 doesn't even run on Sundays nor does the 111.

As I frequently point out in these threads, so long as the car remains significantly faster and more flexible, the public transport alternative will remain inferior. Also, the types of interchanges mentioned here constitute v-shaped commutes which make the journey far more time consuming.


The NUMBER ONE PRIORITY should be to get people out of their cars. I would love to live in a Dublin where I don't need a car. However, the current situation is too inconvenient to afford me this. Anyway, c'est la vie!:rolleyes:

Stephen15

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The only problem is that the only coastal hubs in the burrough of Dun Laoghaire Rathdown are Dun Laoghaire town itself and Blackrock. Then, there is a massive gap between Dun Laoghaire and Bray. I've long since thought of Dalkey as the last remaining piece of this jigsaw puzzle.

Issue Dalkey is more down to Geography than anything else. Road access is poor and you couldn't build a wide road into the place without displacing many houses. Also a main road wouldn't be very direct if it went through Dalkey and would likely have to stop there. If you build say a small shopping centre in Dalkey I couldn't see it getting that much business as Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire and Stillorgan are all hubs in central locations which are easy to acess by both car and public transport Dalkey is not.

So, you agree that it feels quite isolated and cut off from the rest of Dublin and you are advocating it at the same time. This is part of the problem. As long as there are advocates for its isolation, it will remain as such.

I never advocated for it to be isolated. I was just pointing out that it was isolated and that's likely not going to change anything time soon.

[Quotes]There is a wide range of reasons why bus services have failed and all of them appear to be either deliberate either by virtue of poor frequency or winding routes which fail to capitalize on existing infrastructure.[/quote]

True

Also, if the current coastal bus network continues to revolve around Dun Laoghaire and Blackrock, then Dalkey would be considered out of the way. As I said above, Dalkey should be reconfigured into a self-sufficient commuting destination to avoid dependence on interchanges from the likes of Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire so that it isn't out of the way.

It's not going to happen. Dalkey is not big enough or central enough to justify multiple bus routes.

I've said it numerous times and I will say it again, the DART only covers Northbound and Southbound journeys and doesn't cater for the demand for new travel patterns in the direction of the M50 where massive employment centers have sprung up.

That's true but for the time being that's where most of the demand will continue to be even after bus connects in Dalkey.

If the 8 and 7D had been merged and turned into an all day service along the N11, I believe it could have taken off. Sadly, skepticism, a lack of will power and virtually zero outside the box thinking have failed to prove definitively if this is nonviable.

You believe it could have taken off but it's fairly oblivious that Dalkey is a relatively low passenger generator. Such a service would likely duplicate other bus routes along the N11 ie the 46a and 145 and the other bus routes around Killiney and Rochestown Ave. ie the 7/a.

Services restricted to peak times or with a handful of journeys are obviously not going to gather patronage because they don't meet expectations set by all day services. So, naturally, all day services will win.

True but even when Dalkey had the all day 8 back in the day patronage was low as is/was on the 59 even when it used to go to Mackintosh Pk.

Undoubtedly, they will benefit from a higher frequency DART. However, it is an improvement of what is there currently. It is very simple-minded to assume that this should continue being the de facto situation going forward as there will always be room for improvement.

You can say that about many other areas too it's not just Dalkey. Many areas along the Luas line only have the Luas and many areas along QBCs only have buses into town.

As I frequently point out in these threads, so long as the car remains significantly faster and more flexible, the public transport alternative will remain inferior. Also, the types of interchanges mentioned here constitute v-shaped commutes which make the journey far more time consuming.

And that's what project aims to change but also public transport must serve the areas where the most demand ie the most densely populated areas.

The NUMBER ONE PRIORITY should be to get people out of their cars. I would love to live in a Dublin where I don't need a car. However, the current situation is too inconvenient to afford me this. Anyway, c'est la vie!:rolleyes:

One more question I would like to ask you if you don't like the fact that Dalkey is isolated how come you continue to live there? I'm not having a go at you I'm just asking the question.

Awaaf

I always felt a Dalkey to Blackrock local route via Rochestown Ave-Stradbrook Road would have more patronage than the existing Dalkey feeders. It would serve much of the hinterland of previous route to mackintosh park and in this new plan could replace the connectivity from Stradbrook-Deansgrange to Blackrock direct currently provided by the 4 but which will go in the new plan.
It could be diverted onto Pottery Road for some of the route if that would improve volumes.

ted1

Awaaf wrote: »

I always felt a Dalkey to Blackrock local route via Rochestown Ave-Stradbrook Road would have more patronage than the existing Dalkey feeders. It would serve much of the hinterland of previous route to mackintosh park and in this new plan could replace the connectivity from Stradbrook-Deansgrange to Blackrock direct currently provided by the 4 but which will go in the new plan.
It could be diverted onto Pottery Road for some of the route if that would improve volumes.

Dalkey to Blackrock has the DART. So there goes the two main stops. So you are just left with a route that will only be used by pensioners with travel cards.

Awaaf

ted1 wrote: »

Dalkey to Blackrock has the DART. So there goes the two main stops. So you are just left with a route that will only be used by pensioners with travel cards.

I don't think this route will ever happen but just for the record I haven't proposed it to connect Dalkey to Blackrock but rather to connect Dalkey to its inland hinterland and to provide connections between Glenageary-Killiney-Watsons-Johnstown-Rochestown-Deansgrange-Stradbrook and onward to Blackrock and the DART.

schemingbohemia

Contrary to the beliefs of some on this thread, there are other places than Dalkey, ones that are more likely to avail of public transport. I live in Dalkey by the way.
If I want to get to town I use the DART, if I want to get to DL, depending on where in DL and timings, I might take the 59/111. If I want to do an orbital route at the minute, I can go to DL or Blackrock, or Sandymount (18) by DART and then get a bus. It takes longer than driving, this is not a surprise. If I really need to drive I can use one of the 2 GoCars in Dalkey. There are options available to me at the moment, these options will be much more preferable to use if BusConnects becomes a reality.
The 111 is really 2 routes merged together, an additional 59 in reality to DL and then a link from DL to the LUAS. I've used the 111 a few times and it was much busier from DL to the LUAS than from Dalkey to DL.
The plan, and the points illuminated by Stephen show that for the most part this will actually achieve getting people out of their cars, people want certainty in relation to journey times and frequency, this plan will deliver that, if it is delivered in full.
Dalkey is never going to become a Public Transport Hub, geography and demographics won't allow for it.

dublinman1990

Having 2 bus services to Dun Laoghaire in my area like the S8 & 225 is a brilliant idea. I live along the link road in Newtownpark Avenue. Under the current network; it would take me about 30 minutes by walking to or from either bus stop that is on the 7/a, 63 or the Stillorgan N11. These new proposals would only take me only a maximum of 30 seconds to walk between the house and the nearest bus stop out on the link road on Newtownpark Avenue which is a huge improvement in time saving when walking to or from my current nearest bus stops in Monkstown Road, Abbey Road & Stillorgan.

Myself & my mum are very heavily dependent on PT to allow us do our day to day business as we cannot afford to buy a car in a place like Dublin.

The 225 as a local route is really a big game changer for myself & my mam as we sometimes go shopping either in Dun Laoghaire, Stillorgan or Dundrum SC throughout the year. This new route will be a huge benefit for us in allowing us getting to or from these destinations quicker. The 225 is also a really good option for us with the Luas if we want to use it to link further on between Dundrum & Broombridge. I would say that it will be an even better option to use the 225 when the Green Line includes having the option of MetroLink if we wanted to go further into the Northside of Dublin in future.

The 227 is another good choice of a route from Blackrock Dart Station as it will leave us at the same stops where the 225 will pick us up on the link road to get home. It's another good choice to have if we wanted to go to Cornelscourt Shopping Centre. Some of my family live along the 227 as they live in Abbey Road & Ballyogan.

The S8 is also good link to have a route to Sandyford. It counts as a good alternative to getting a southbound Luas instead of getting the 225 to Dundrum.

That is all I will say on the routes. The infrastructure that covers them is a little more problematic. I could address some potential problems mainly along the link road & up upon Newtownpark Avenue as far as White's Cross. The link road up as far as Coppinger in Stillorgan has plenty of speed bumps along it to slows down buses like the 7b & 7d mainly along Rowanbyrn up to the Benamore apartment block. There is also the issue of private cars being parked outside houses along both sides of the bus lane at Rowanbyrn which is caused by a severe lack of suitable car parking spaces along the main road. There is also the problem of the link road having heavy traffic sometimes in the morning & evening peak times which slows down buses further. A road widening scheme needs to be put in place from outside the old Playwright Pub up as far White's Cross to allow the S8 have quicker journey times during the peak.

Awaaf

Discussion at DCC on the new Bus Proposals https://dublincity.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/360509

In fairness the presentation and the response to questions from Councillors is very good.

patrickbrophy18

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Contrary to the beliefs of some on this thread, there are other places than Dalkey, ones that are more likely to avail of public transport. I live in Dalkey by the way.

I live in Dalkey too on account of the fact that I was brought up there. However, as someone who wasn't driving in my youth, I found myself thinking that there is a lot of room for improvement from a public transport stand point. That's all!

Either way, nobody will change my observation. However, going by some of the posts here, you would swear people were experts in either public transport or town planning.

Also, I amn't for one second saying that there aren't other areas which need it more as there are. That is fairly obvious when one goes up to places such as Belarmine and Stepaside.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Dalkey is never going to become a Public Transport Hub, geography and demographics won't allow for it.

Well, never is such a strong word as there will always be change requirements.

What do you mean by "geography and demographics won't allow for it"?

And more importantly, why wouldn't they allow for it?

ted1

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Contrary to the beliefs of some on this thread, there are other places than Dalkey, ones that are more likely to avail of public transport. I live in Dalkey by the way.

I live in Dalkey too on account of the fact that I was brought up there. However, as someone who wasn't driving in my youth, I found myself thinking that there is a lot of room for improvement from a public transport stand point. That's all!

Either way, nobody will change my observation. However, going by some of the posts here, you would swear people were experts in either public transport or town planning.

Also, I amn't for one second saying that there aren't other areas which need it more as there are. That is fairly obvious when one goes up to places such as Belarmine and Stepaside.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Dalkey is never going to become a Public Transport Hub, geography and demographics won't allow for it.

Well, never is such a strong word as there will always be change requirements.

What do you mean by "geography and demographics won't allow for it"?

And more importantly, why wouldn't they allow for it?

Because people don’t want it to be. People like Dalkey the way it is.
If you want better transport then move.
It’s well connected to the city with the Dart which links up i busses in Dun Laoighre and Blackrock.

Not many people living in Dalkey work in the likes of cherrywood and so there’s no demand.
Those that do work there are young and have no reason for not hopping in their bike.

schemingbohemia

By geography I meant the difficulty in constructing roads with bus priority, well not difficulty anything can be built but the sense in doing so.
By demographics I meant there is a significant cohort of people who will never use public transport in Dalkey, who have spent lots of money on cars and will simply not use the bus or dart no matter what improvements are made. Does it make sense to invest huge amounts of money on bus services there rather than in other areas where people may be more likely to use them?
Have a look at the numbers driving their kids to the Harold or Loreto who could easily walk or cycle there, I've a neighbour who drives to Dun Laoghaire every day.

patrickbrophy18

ted1 wrote: »

Because people don’t want it to be. People like Dalkey the way it is.

If you're talking about the town (or village as you like to call it), then yes, I and many other people like the plethora of pubs and cafes that line it.


Of course, there could be more contrary to your opinion. I still don't mind multinationals moving in as long as they remain tasteful.

ted1 wrote: »

If you want better transport then move.

People shouldn't have to move to an area for better transport options. There should be a uniform approach to public transport provision in a way that is evenly distributed. Moreover, local residents shouldn't be preventing this as they only halt provision for future generations who are willing to avail of it.



So, let's start setting an example to them. Agree?

ted1 wrote: »

It’s well connected to the city with the Dart which links up i busses in Dun Laoighre and Blackrock.

Yes. But, if you have seen how Dublin has developed in the latter part of the 1900s, you would realize that demand has been created in areas well away from the DART. So, something has got to give.

ted1 wrote: »

Not many people living in Dalkey work in the likes of cherrywood and so there’s no demand.

Where is the evidence of this?


I know plenty of Dalkey people who work out in that direction and even further afield.

ted1 wrote: »

Those that do work there are young and have no reason for not hopping in their bike.

Again, it;s not about Cherrywood (which is bike-able alright, I'll give you that), it's about areas like Sandyford, Dundrum, Tallaght, Citywest and other areas well away from the DART. Also, the further from the point of origin, the less likely people will be inclined to cycle. Although, from the other thread, you cycle 60 miles a day. That takes a lot of commitment!

schemingbohemia wrote: »

By geography I meant the difficulty in constructing roads with bus priority, well not difficulty anything can be built but the sense in doing so.

Agreed. Reshaping the roads would be needed if it were to become more public transport oriented. While not badly needed by any means now. It will be needed eventually. I just think never is a strong word.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

By demographics I meant there is a significant cohort of people who will never use public transport in Dalkey, who have spent lots of money on cars and will simply not use the bus or dart no matter what improvements are made.

Ah yes, any excuse to drive their souped up status symbols. :cool:

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Does it make sense to invest huge amounts of money on bus services there rather than in other areas where people may be more likely to use them?

I do think areas like Carrickmines, Stepaside, Belarmine, Blessington and Enniskerry certainly need better links. Then again, it shouldn't be about what areas have more transport and what areas have less in Dublin. It should be evenly distributed so that each suburb has a chance to switch to public transport.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Have a look at the numbers driving their kids to the Harold or Loreto who could easily walk or cycle there, I've a neighbour who drives to Dun Laoghaire every day.

As a continuation of the previous comment about status symbols, I think parents should be encouraging people to switch to more sustainable modes of transport such as cycling or public transport instead of setting an example that will spill over to the next generation.

Stephen15

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

People shouldn't have to move to an area for better transport options. There should be a uniform approach to public transport provision in a way that is evenly distributed. Moreover, local residents shouldn't be preventing this as they only halt provision for future generations who are willing to avail of it.

I'm sorry I have to disagree with this statement. That's almost like saying people living in Connemara should have transport options on a par with densely populated parts of Dublin. Ok a bit of an extreme example but surely areas which have the highest populations and most demand should have the best transport links.

Yes. But, if you have seen how Dublin has developed in the latter part of the 1900s, you would realize that demand has been created in areas well away from the DART. So, something has got to give.

Most places in South Dublin have two types of services currently radial services such as the DART, Luas or high frequency buses and some local services such like the 59, 63, 111 or 114. Some areas also have orbital services aswell like the 17, 18 or 75 but these are usually bigger areas like Stillorgan, Blackrock or Dun Laoghaire rather than areas like Dalkey, Shankill, Carrickmines or Cabinteely

E.g. Carrickmines and Ballygoan which have I would guess a similar population to Dalkey has the Luas for journeys into town or other areas along the line and the 63 to DL for more local trips. This is similar which has the DART for journeys into town and the 59 for more local trips.

Again, it;s not about Cherrywood (which is bike-able alright, I'll give you that), it's about areas like Sandyford, Dundrum, Tallaght, Citywest and other areas well away from the DART. Also, the further from the point of origin, the less likely people will be inclined to cycle. Although, from the other thread, you cycle 60 miles a day. That takes a lot of commitment!

But not every area is going to have direct connection to every other area where happen to work or go to college etc. Some places are going to require changes. Even bigger places like Bray don't have direct connections to the areas you mentioned. Not every area is going to have a direct connection some may require may require changes which is a fundamental part of this project.

You mention places like Tallaght and Citywest but these areas will now be far more accesible to people from Dalkey after the plan as DL and Blackrock will have connections to those places through new orbital routes like the S6, S7 and S8. A person from Dalkey can get the DART to DL or Blackrock to get one of those places.

I do think areas like Carrickmines, Stepaside, Belarmine, Blessington and Enniskerry certainly need better links. Then again, it shouldn't be about what areas have more transport and what areas have less in Dublin. It should be evenly distributed so that each suburb has a chance to switch to public transport.

It's impossible to evenly distribute public transport as areas which have the highest density and population should have the most links. See the first point I made. So under your logic a place like Blessington with a population of 5k should equal public transport links to an area like Blanchardstown with a population of nearly 70k

Stevie S

Stephen15 wrote: »

You would think more new bus routes would serve Bride's Glen/Cherrywood considering the development going on up there. In my opinion it should have a bus every 20-30 mins to Bray. Perhaps it could be included as another terminus on the E spine which would have a different Northside terminus.

Agreed on this point. In one of the pages it mentions the 212 goes from Ballywaltrim all the way to Bride's Glen but none of the maps depict this, just Ballywaltrim terminating in Bray. It would make sense for this to happen IMO and connect Bray / Shankill to the Luas here (biased Shankill resident!). I put it in the survey anyway

DUBLINBUSGUY

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

It looks like the 111 is set to be scrapped under these plans along with a number change to the 59 route.


Does this mean that Go Ahead will eventually cease operation of these routes?


Now, I will say that the 111 is a weak attempt at providing Dalkey with a connection to the Green Luas Line. So, I am now 100% convinced that they deliberately made the route convoluted to the point that no one would use it.


They might be making the network easier to understand. However, it looks like another Network Direct. Only this time, the amount of routes will be cut back significantly. Also, the scarcity of orbital routes will continue to be a problem.

I use it . (But mainly for bus spins.) As someone said earlier, the 111 is like an extra 59 linking Dalkey to DL and then it serves as an extra/alternative bus to Sallynoggin/Ballybrack etc. It is also handy because it serves both the 7/a terminuses and the hospital.

Also, reversing on my opinion from a few months back, I don't think a bus to town from Dalkey would make much sense. If it followed the current 7D route it would only be handy for you (everyone in Dalkey would probably take the DART apart from me, you and a small handful of ppl) and maybe a few ppl from Honeypark/Cualanor who would get on instead of walking down the road to catch a 46a. After that, it would just be an extra 46a into the city.
I think the 7D is grand as it is. The 05:20 departure gets a good few on it (I don't know about the 07:15 but I presume it gets a decent amount on it) and the 17:35 back out is packed with commuters. I think the only change would be maybe a departure between 16:30-17:00 and then it goes every 10-15mins till 18:30.

DUBLINBUSGUY

I also noticed from looking at the proposed additional peak hour routes that the 7D will be scrapped. Unless you're getting the bus between Dalkey and Dún Laoghaire though, I don't think it really matters.

DUBLINBUSGUY

From what I can understand there is going to be an hourly 244 bus route from Tallaght to Blessington/Ballymore. There is then going to be a peak hour route, the 344 from Tallaght to Ballyknockan. The route is going to only operate in the AM peak and will operate one service outbound and then head back inbound to Tallaght. They say it will combine with the all day 244 route to create a 30 minute frequency between Blessington and Tallaght for 2 hours. Should they not have services in the evening too? It would provide additional peak frequency between Blessington and Tallaght and Ballyknockan would keep their evening services.

schemingbohemia

DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »

I use it . (But mainly for bus spins.) As someone said earlier, the 111 is like an extra 59 linking Dalkey to DL and then it serves as an extra/alternative bus to Sallynoggin/Ballybrack etc. It is also handy because it serves both the 7/a terminuses and the hospital.

Also, reversing on my opinion from a few months back, I don't think a bus to town from Dalkey would make much sense. If it followed the current 7D route it would only be handy for you (everyone in Dalkey would probably take the DART apart from me, you and a small handful of ppl) and maybe a few ppl from Honeypark/Cualanor who would get on instead of walking down the road to catch a 46a. After that, it would just be an extra 46a into the city.
I think the 7D is grand as it is. The 05:20 departure gets a good few on it (I don't know about the 07:15 but I presume it gets a decent amount on it) and the 17:35 back out is packed with commuters. I think the only change would be maybe a departure between 16:30-17:00 and then it goes every 10-15mins till 18:30.

0715 is full, it gets a good few people before Baker's Corner but fills up after that and then would probably be full once it hits the first couple of stops on the N11. I would say that the move to the link road has helped with loadings.

patrickbrophy18

DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »

I use it . (But mainly for bus spins.) As someone said earlier, the 111 is like an extra 59 linking Dalkey to DL and then it serves as an extra/alternative bus to Sallynoggin/Ballybrack etc. It is also handy because it serves both the 7/a terminuses and the hospital.

Precisely why I see it as a Machiavellian attempt at running the route into the ground. On paper, it claims to connect Dalkey with the Green Luas Line. Before even changing for a Tram to Dundrum, people driving to Dundrum from Dalkey will have already arrived.


The following is how I would operate a route with this purpose:


1. Preferred Bus Route: Dalkey, Glenageary Shopping Center, Park Pointe, Bakers Corner, Foxrock Church, Leopardstown Road, Stillorgan Luas.
(20 minutes)
2. Luas: 5 Minutes to Balally for Dundrum Town Center.
Total Journey Length: 25 minutes



With the above arrangement, a whole lot more people will be dissuaded from using their cars.



Instead :mad:, the current situation is as follows:


1. Bus Route 111: Takes 40-50 minutes to get to the Brides Glen Luas.
2. Luas: 20 Minutes to Dundrum.
Total Journey Length: 60-70 Minutes



Am I not getting through to anyone?

DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »

Also, reversing on my opinion from a few months back, I don't think a bus to town from Dalkey would make much sense. If it followed the current 7D route it would only be handy for you (everyone in Dalkey would probably take the DART apart from me, you and a small handful of ppl) and maybe a few ppl from Honeypark/Cualanor who would get on instead of walking down the road to catch a 46a. After that, it would just be an extra 46a into the city.

The 7D also serves as a direct (0 changes) connection to UCD and Stillorgan, something the DART currently doesn't do. What made you change your mind so drastically?

DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »

I think the 7D is grand as it is. The 05:20 departure gets a good few on it (I don't know about the 07:15 but I presume it gets a decent amount on it) and the 17:35 back out is packed with commuters. I think the only change would be maybe a departure between 16:30-17:00 and then it goes every 10-15mins till 18:30.

If you are saying that it "gets a good few on it", why don't they (Dublin Bus, Bus Connects or Go Ahead) exploit the **** out of it?


Then again, this is Ireland where common sense is lacking!

Stephen15

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Precisely why I see it as a Machiavellian attempt at running the route into the ground. On paper, it claims to connect Dalkey with the Green Luas Line. Before even changing for a Tram to Dundrum, people driving to Dundrum from Dalkey will have already arrived.

Taking the 111 from Dalkey to Brides Glen would be a bit like taking the 27 all the way from Clare Hall to Jobstown. It would probably take over an hour and a half to do a journey which could be done in about half an hour in a car on the M50 however the route is a merger of the old 77 from Jobstown to the City Centre and the 27 from Clare Hall to the City Centre. It is not designed with end to end commutes in mind it is designed like many urban bus routes it is not go from A to Z but to go from A to B to C to D and so on.


The following is how I would operate a route with this purpose:

1. Preferred Bus Route: Dalkey, Glenageary Shopping Center, Park Pointe, Bakers Corner, Foxrock Church, Leopardstown Road, Stillorgan Luas.
(20 minutes)
2. Luas: 5 Minutes to Balally for Dundrum Town Center.
Total Journey Length: 25 minutes


Instead :mad:, the current situation is as follows:


1. Bus Route 111: Takes 40-50 minutes to get to the Brides Glen Luas.
2. Luas: 20 Minutes to Dundrum.
Total Journey Length: 60-70 Minutes

You're journey timings don't take wait time into account either. If such a route were to exist demand would dictate it would likely only be able to run at around about a frequency of every hour which according to bus connects would be an average wait time of 30 mins and Luas would be an average wait time of 6 mins meaning a commute time of an hour if you include average wait times.

Also you forgot to mention that if one were to do this commute today they could do it quicker by going by DART to DL and 75 DL to Dundrum. Here is the fastest pt commute from Dalkey to Dundrum

Current situation

1. Dart: 6 mins to DL
2. 75 Bus 30 mins to Dundrum
Total journey time 36 mins

If you include average wait time that's would 7.5 mins DART and 15 mins 75 so it would be a total of 22.5 mins wait time versus 36 mins average wait time on the 111/Luas option so that's a total journey of about 100 mins versus 57.5 mins.

After Bus Connects/DART 10 mins frequency

1. Dart 6 mins to DL
2. 225 Bus At a rough guess I would this bus route would take about 20-25 mins
Total journey time 30 mins

If you include an average wait for the DART at 5 mins and for the proposed 225 bus at 7.5 mins that's a total wait time of 12.5 mins so a commute 42.5 mins versus a commute of an hour under your Dalkey to Stillorgan Luas/Luas commute proposal.

So Bus Connects along with a 10 minute DART would likely benefit someone going from Dalkey to Dundrum would more then Patrick's proposals. I don't have anything against you personally Patrick but I do think a Dalkey to Stillorgan Luas bus would be unviable.

MarkY91

Number 9 and 54a bus are being gotten ride of. I live in kimmage. How am I supposed to get to town? Wtf

Stephen15

MarkY91 wrote: »

Number 9 and 54a bus are being gotten ride of. I live in kimmage. How am I supposed to get to town? Wtf

F spine serves Kimmage

patrickbrophy18

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

If you are saying that it "gets a good few on it", why don't they (Dublin Bus, Bus Connects or Go Ahead) exploit the **** out of it?


Then again, this is Ireland where common sense is lacking!

Indeed.

During the last changes they scrapped the No 8, because 5 of the 6 buses a day weren't busy. The simple fact that the 8am one was the only way a significant number of kids had to get to school, hence it being packed within the first six or eight stops seemed to go completely unnoticed.

People moan about parents doing the school runs, but then they take away a bus service that catered almost exclusively for schools. it beggers belief.

Stephen15

Aegir wrote: »

Indeed.

During the last changes they scrapped the No 8, because 5 of the 6 buses a day weren't busy. The simple fact that the 8am one was the only way a significant number of kids had to get to school, hence it being packed within the first six or eight stops seemed to go completely unnoticed.

People moan about parents doing the school runs, but then they take away a bus service that catered almost exclusively for schools. it beggers belief.

I thought they planned to keep the 0800 8 but it doesn't appear in either the public timetable or the school services timetable.

Dardania

Stephen15 wrote: »

MarkY91 wrote: »

Number 9 and 54a bus are being gotten ride of. I live in kimmage. How am I supposed to get to town? Wtf

F spine serves Kimmage

Look at this: https://busconnects.ie/media/1274/map-2-proposed-all-day-network-big-picture.pdf

Stephen15

The biggest concern about the South Dublin/North Wicklow proposals is that Bray and Greystones are currently in a better place now with the 84/a for a connection to the Luas and we all know the 84/a is a pretty crap bus. Greystones has no Luas connection and Bray only has the 213 every 40-45 mins which takes a somewhat strange and long route going from Bray to UCD via Enniskerry, Kilternan and Sandyford.

If the long term aim is to extend Luas to Bray then obivosuly the demand is there for a feeder bus between Bray and the Luas so people can get from Bray to places like Sandyford, Dundrum and Ranelagh also the plans show no increase in service in Cherrywood despite the plans to develop the area. There is a shuttle bus replacing the 7 to DL every 15 mins which I guess is an improvement but when the development is finished I think the area needs more then that.

My proposal would be extend the 201/202 routes to Bride's Glen that would give not just Bray but also Greystones and Shankill a 20 minute frequency to the Luas as well as providing an extra connection for people living in the proposed developments in Cherrywood and giving Delgany, Kilcoole, Newcastle and Newtownmountkennedy a connection to the Luas also. This would be a big improvement on the 84/a in terms of frequency of the connection.

I would also have the route bypass the DART station in Bray and go straight to Bride's Glen via Shankill. It wouldn't be nessecary to provide a connection to Bray DART station as most of the people connecting to the DART are from South of Greystones and Greystones will have a 20 minute DART frequency so they wouldn't need to go all the way to Bray to get a frequent DART service.

Stevie S

Stephen15 wrote: »

The biggest concern about the South Dublin/North Wicklow proposals is that Bray and Greystones are currently in a better place now with the 84/a for a connection to the Luas and we all know the 84/a is a pretty crap bus. Greystones has no Luas connection and Bray only has the 213 every 40-45 mins which takes a somewhat strange and long route going from Bray to UCD via Enniskerry, Kilternan and Sandyford.

If the long term aim is to extend Luas to Bray then obivosuly the demand is there for a feeder bus between Bray and the Luas so people can get from Bray to places like Sandyford, Dundrum and Ranelagh also the plans show no increase in service in Cherrywood despite the plans to develop the area. There is a shuttle bus replacing the 7 to DL every 15 mins which I guess is an improvement but when the development is finished I think the area needs more then that.

My proposal would be extend the 201/202 routes to Bride's Glen that would give not just Bray but also Greystones and Shankill a 20 minute frequency to the Luas as well as providing an extra connection for people living in the proposed developments in Cherrywood and giving Delgany, Kilcoole, Newcastle and Newtownmountkennedy a connection to the Luas also. This would be a big improvement on the 84/a in terms of frequency of the connection.

I would also have the route bypass the DART station in Bray and go straight to Bride's Glen via Shankill. It wouldn't be nessecary to provide a connection to Bray DART station as most of the people connecting to the DART are from South of Greystones and Greystones will have a 20 minute DART frequency so they wouldn't need to go all the way to Bray to get a frequent DART service.

Hi

I agree with your sentiments. I feel extending the 212 to Brides Glen would be simpler. 201/202 probably has a good reason for the current proposed loop. The 212 would just be extending an already pretty short route

Whatever gets Shankill to Brides Glen every 20 mins is good for me though..

Stephen15

Stevie S wrote: »

Hi

I agree with your sentiments. I feel extending the 212 to Brides Glen would be simpler. 201/202 probably has a good reason for the current proposed loop. The 212 would just be extending an already pretty short route

Whatever gets Shankill to Brides Glen every 20 mins is good for me though..

The loop would stay the same it's a good idea it would just go to Bride's Glen instead of just Bray. The reason why I chose the 201/202 is that it would also give Greystones a 20 minute link to the Luas and not just Bray. Also the 212 is meant to be replacing the 145 in West Bray/Ballywaltrim so it would need to be of higher frequency. If the Luas is extended to Bray this routing should be cancelled and leave it terminate in Bray.

DUBLINBUSGUY

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Instead :mad:, the current situation is as follows:


1. Bus Route 111: Takes 40-50 minutes to get to the Brides Glen Luas.
2. Luas: 20 Minutes to Dundrum.
Total Journey Length: 60-70 Minutes!

While it would be nice to be able to not have to change bus/train while travelling to/from Dalkey and Dundrum there is absolutely no need as there are multiple ways of doing so with journey times starting at 35 minutes (not 60-70 minutes as you have stated :rolleyes:).

The method you have described in the quote above is the slowest way to do so, and you know it!

Here are some quicker ways (which most actually been pointed out to you):

If it's a Saturday at 1 pm and I want to go to Dundrum,
I can get the 59 at approximately 13:00 and then catch the 13:10 75 to Dundrum and arrive at approximately 13:40. That is a total journey time of 40 minutes. (If the 75 isn't too busy it could take 25 minutes.)
You could get the DART instead of the 59 and that could possibly reduce the journey time to 30-35 minutes.
You could also get the 111 at 13:30 and catch the 13:40 75 to Dundrum.
And then you have your very slow option of getting the 111 to Brides Glen and then a LUAS. There are (obviously) slower ways but I classify them as on purpose getting slow/indirect routes etc., like if you were doing a bus spin or something.

Edit: I get the LUAS to/from Brides Glen and Dundrum a lot and the quickest journey time would be 25 minutes. I also get the 111 terminus to terminus a lot. Using my knowledge I calculate Patrick's journey at approximately 75 minutes. (45 mins 111, 33 mins LUAS journey, 5 minute wait added bc that's usually how long I wait after getting off the 111 at Brides Glen, extra 2 minutes added to round it.

MarkY91

Dardania wrote: »

Look at this: https://busconnects.ie/media/1274/map-2-proposed-all-day-network-big-picture.pdf

Makes a little more sense from reading some of this thread. I still have no idea how to get from A to B.

I can currently get the 9 from kimmage to o connell street and get the 46a to Hanlon's corner in stoneybatter. How do I figure out how the proposed new way of me doing that journey would be? I hope the new app to tell us information won't be as horrific as the Dublin bus all of now



Edit: so I change bus on the O route eliminating town from the equation. I wonder how much time I'm apparently gonna save?

DUBLINBUSGUY

DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »

While it would be nice to be able to not have to change bus/train while travelling to/from Dalkey and Dundrum there is absolutely no need as there are multiple ways of doing so with journey times starting at 35 minutes (not 60-70 minutes as you have stated :rolleyes:).

The method you have described in the quote above is the slowest way to do so, and you know it!

Here are some quicker ways (which most actually been pointed out to you):

If it's a Saturday at 1 pm and I want to go to Dundrum,
I can get the 59 at approximately 13:00 and then catch the 13:10 75 to Dundrum and arrive at approximately 13:40. That is a total journey time of 40 minutes. (If the 75 isn't too busy it could take 25 minutes.)
You could get the DART instead of the 59 and that could possibly reduce the journey time to 30-35 minutes.
You could also get the 111 at 13:30 and catch the 13:40 75 to Dundrum.
And then you have your very slow option of getting the 111 to Brides Glen and then a LUAS. There are (obviously) slower ways but I classify them as on purpose getting slow/indirect routes etc., like if you were doing a bus spin or something.

Edit: I get the LUAS to/from Brides Glen and Dundrum a lot and the quickest journey time would be 25 minutes. I also get the 111 terminus to terminus a lot. Using my knowledge I calculate Patrick's journey at approximately 75 minutes. (45 mins 111, 33 mins LUAS journey, 5 minute wait added bc that's usually how long I wait after getting off the 111 at Brides Glen, extra 2 minutes added to round it.

I used to commute from Dalkey to Dundrum everyday.

If I caught the 7:20 7d from Dalkey, get off at Brewery Road and walk to Stillorgan Luas, I could get in to the office just after 8. That was the absolute quickest way of doing it. You would have to be superbly lucky to get off the 59 and step on to the 75 and you might do it in 40 minutes, but very very lucky if you do, especially if you have to walk from the 75 Bus Stop to the other end of the shopping centre.

Stephen15

Stevie S wrote: »

Hi

I agree with your sentiments. I feel extending the 212 to Brides Glen would be simpler. 201/202 probably has a good reason for the current proposed loop. The 212 would just be extending an already pretty short route

Whatever gets Shankill to Brides Glen every 20 mins is good for me though..

There appears to be a direct link to Bride's Glen/Cherrywood from Bray according to the proposed frequency chart. It states that the 212 bus will run between Bray and Bride's Glen Luas every 10 mins however on the map it shows the 213 only runs to Bray DART son I don't know which one to believe.

The map is also a little bit misleading as it states that the 211 route which is pretty much the same as the 45a will terminate at the DART station but it also shows Kilmac as being the terminus.

Stevie S

Yes saw that. It's on no maps but is on the frequency page. It's why I picked the 212 to get there to be honest.
I'm not sure it needs a frequency of 10 mins but I don't want to speak for those south of Bray towards Ballywaltrim.
Every 20 would seem reasonable. The 84 is hopeless currently for this journey

Victor

Stephen15 wrote: »

You would think more new bus routes would serve Bride's Glen/Cherrywood considering the development going on up there. In my opinion it should have a bus every 20-30 mins to Bray. Perhaps it could be included as another terminus on the E spine which would have a different Northside terminus.

How useful would such a connection be, given routes S1, S4, S6, S7, S8, 213, 222, 225, 226, 227?

Victor

Awaaf wrote: »

Thanks for the links.

Here is my attempt to assess impacts. I am in the Monkstown Farm area. Please advise if any of this seems wrong.

The changes seem to increase frequency to DL at the Monkstown Ave end which is good. However the direct route to Blackrock via the existing 4 is severed with the route now seeming to be to go to DL on increased frequency and then 7 to Blackrock. This is an unfortunate bus-change on a short route.

The loss of the #4 as a direct route to town is a big loss with the route now either via the E-spine or the increased frequency to DL and then 7/DART or maybe increased links to the N11 and E-spine. I guess this is a classic example of the tradeoff of bus changes for frequency.

Potentially, something like this could be done.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

What do you mean by "geography and demographics won't allow for it"?

Roads wise, Dalkey is effectively a cul de sac - there is nothing the far side of it.

Lots of people in the area are older and stuck to their cars.

Stevie S wrote: »

Agreed on this point. In one of the pages it mentions the 212 goes from Ballywaltrim all the way to Bride's Glen but none of the maps depict this, just Ballywaltrim terminating in Bray. It would make sense for this to happen IMO and connect Bray / Shankill to the Luas here (biased Shankill resident!). I put it in the survey anyway

Kilbride, not Bride's Glen.

Chapter 7 wrote:

Bray station is the hub for five local routes, in addition to the E1:
• Route 212 is a frequent local, every 10 minutes all day, that extends southwest from Bray to Kilbride/Ballywaltrim. This route replaces the outer part of current Route 145, but takes passengers to DART for connections to rail service to the city, as well as to E1 for continuing north toward Stillorgan Road.

Stephen15 wrote: »

The biggest concern about the South Dublin/North Wicklow proposals is that Bray and Greystones are currently in a better place now with the 84/a for a connection to the Luas and we all know the 84/a is a pretty crap bus. Greystones has no Luas connection and Bray only has the 213 every 40-45 mins which takes a somewhat strange and long route going from Bray to UCD via Enniskerry, Kilternan and Sandyford.

Don't Finnegan's provide a Bray-Bride's Glen service? This may prevent another route being added.

Stephen15

Victor wrote: »

Don't Finnegan's provide a Bray-Bride's Glen service? This may prevent another route being added.

They provide a Bray-Sandyford service but not a Bray-Bride's Glen service which is currently provided by the 84/a.

Stephen15

Victor wrote: »

Potentially, something like this could be done.

Not as professional looking as your's Victor but this is what could be done to fill to the void left by the 4. Run the proposed 7a to Dun Laoghaire and run the 7b on the 4 routing as far TK Roundabout and then extend it to Killiney SC via Abbey Road and Rochestown Avenue. I don't think a frequent service on Carysfort Ave. would really work as it's a narrow road with lots of on street parking.

There is a large amount of houses around Rochestown Avenue in places like Sallynoggin, Killiney and Ballybrack that are now left without a service to the city centre. My proposal would make the journey time from these areas quicker as it wouldn't have to go via Dun Laoghaire and Monkstown like the 7/a currently does.

Here is my map

patrickbrophy18

DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »

While it would be nice to be able to not have to change bus/train while travelling to/from Dalkey and Dundrum there is absolutely no need as there are multiple ways of doing so with journey times starting at 35 minutes (not 60-70 minutes as you have stated :rolleyes:).

You might find that the quoted time of 35 minutes is probably off peak and when there are fewer stops to be made.

DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »

The method you have described in the quote above is the slowest way to do so, and you know it!

You sound so certain of this. Now, the trajectory of the trip I described is in the general direction of Dundrum. Also, that last part is just condescending "You know it!".

As someone with Aspergers, I see genuine gaps in the network that have lead to car dependence. The attached image should better explain it.


This was taken from the following interactive map:


http://interactive.map.busconnects.ie/

DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »

Here are some quicker ways (which most actually been pointed out to you):

If it's a Saturday at 1 pm and I want to go to Dundrum,
I can get the 59 at approximately 13:00 and then catch the 13:10 75 to Dundrum and arrive at approximately 13:40. That is a total journey time of 40 minutes. (If the 75 isn't too busy it could take 25 minutes.)

And a very big "if" at that. It's not just about off peak commutes or casual commutes on a Saturday, it's also about the on peak as well. Moreover, we need to remember that a working population needs to have a badly needed work-life balance which can only be achieved by the car in many instances!


This is because the current work-life balance is not attractive in its current form NOR is it attractive in the proposed form in the interactive map.

DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »

You could get the DART instead of the 59 and that could possibly reduce the journey time to 30-35 minutes.

There are parts of the area such as Castlepark Road and Dalkey Avenue which can be up to a 10 minute walk from either the 59 or DART. Over in another thread, I came out with a proposal which would enable much better penetration of the area that would cut out the meandering. In the process, this would make Dalkey an en route destination instead of the "cul de sac" mentioned by Victor earlier. See the post at the below address:


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104866464&postcount=13

DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »

You could also get the 111 at 13:30 and catch the 13:40 75 to Dundrum.

The 111 terminates at the roundabout leaving a whole load of potential users south in the cold.

DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »

And then you have your very slow option of getting the 111 to Brides Glen and then a LUAS. There are (obviously) slower ways but I classify them as on purpose getting slow/indirect routes etc., like if you were doing a bus spin or something.

I have regularly thought that the routes were made indirect (111, 59) or infrequent (7D and former 8 bus) "on purpose" as a way of making them unattractive so they could ultimately cancel them due to 'poor loadings'. Of course the loadings are going to be poor if the perception of reliability (infrequent 7D or 8) or punctuality (indirect 111 or 59) has been crippled from the get go. It's akin to selling defective products in a store because the shop and its staff don't care about the customer. Fair comparison?

DUBLINBUSGUY wrote: »

Edit: I get the LUAS to/from Brides Glen and Dundrum a lot and the quickest journey time would be 25 minutes. I also get the 111 terminus to terminus a lot. Using my knowledge I calculate Patrick's journey at approximately 75 minutes. (45 mins 111, 33 mins LUAS journey, 5 minute wait added bc that's usually how long I wait after getting off the 111 at Brides Glen, extra 2 minutes added to round it.

This is probably a casual "bus spin" as you call it. I also highly doubt that anyone working in Dundrum, Sandyford or further afield would be tempted by the journey as they would very quickly loose the will to live.


Of course, perceptions need to change in Dalkey and other parts of Dublin from a public transport usage perspective. I just think the state owned organizations have made little or no effort to do this.


Yes, snobbery, souped up SUVs and school runs have become way too common in the area. However, we need to phase this out so that future generations can be more public transport orientated.



Like the store comparison, if you want to get shoppers, you have to earn their loyalty.


Also, it's not outside the realms of common sense that when Cherrywood is complete and operational that some of the extra pressure added to Dun Laoghaire and Blackrock could be relieved by a moderate improvement in service and infrastructure around the Dalkey area.


Either-way, I amn't going to take the arguments against my proposals as gospel as those arguments are merely opinions as well.


NUFF SAID!

Victor

The problem I've seen in Foxrock and Dalkey is that very few people seem to use the existing buses.