Sites and Siblings.

mycro2013

As above lads and lassies how do people navigate the above ticking time bomb. Anyone that I've talked to doesn't seem to address the issue and like all farm family issues just seem to kick the can down the road. In the hope that the issue will resolve itself.

DaDerv

What is the issue exactly?

freedominacup

The brother in law nailed it. 5 sisters. Got 3 of them hitched to farmers, me included, fourth one was living in Dublin when she got married traded the three bed semi in Dublin for a four bed detached just off the ring Rd in Waterford when she moved home. Last girl married a fella who already had a nice new four bed in a sought after location in Tramore if that's not a contradiction in terms. #sorted. Fcuker must have 2 miles of rd frontage.

charolais0153

If you get the place youd be kind of obliged to give them an acre or two for a site if you have it....dont think my sisters will want to live beside me though!

memorystick

Families living on top of each other is a recipe for a disaster.

Dinzee Conlee

mycro2013 wrote: »

As above lads and lassies how do people navigate the above ticking time bomb. Anyone that I've talked to doesn't seem to address the issue and like all farm family issues just seem to kick the can down the road. In the hope that the issue will resolve itself.

I think the best thing to do is sit down at the kitchen table at home, and talk it out... see what everyone wants, talk about how each option affects everyone... everyone have their homework done beforehand on any tax implications, tax-free allowances, etc...
I would also say no in-laws, just siblings...

That’s what happened in our place, a while ago now though...

Might be easier said than done...

lakill Farm

memorystick wrote: »

Families living on top of each other is a recipe for a disaster.

so is pure greed and meanness

wrangler

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

I think the best thing to do is sit down at the kitchen table at home, and talk it out... see what everyone wants, talk about how each option affects everyone... everyone have their homework done beforehand on any tax implications, tax-free allowances, etc...
I would also say no in-laws, just siblings...

That’s what happened in our place, a while ago now though...

Might be easier said than done...

That has to be done before anyone commits to farming, parents shouldn't walk their children into farming without laying out the conditions of taking over the farm.....they also shouldn't take advantage of someones youthful enthusiasm.
Not every 25 year old has the cop on to figure out the implication

memorystick

lakill Farm wrote: »

so is pure greed and meanness

Exactly. Not all families are like the Waltons. Mine are a disgrace. Just bring a baby with a disability home from hospital and you get to do what some people are like.

lakill Farm

memorystick wrote: »

Exactly. Not all families are like the Waltons. Mine are a disgrace. Just bring a baby with a disability home from hospital and you get to do what some people are like.

there isn't a family in the country that currently has or had a large disagreement

If there is a family that hasn't, its just about to happen

Siamsa Sessions

Giving a site for free will cause rows as the farmer will always have a hold over his sibling. Charging full whack for the site is a bit on the greedy side but the sibling can then tell the farmer/brother to eff-off as they're independent.

If the parents had a will and the siblings were to get a certain amount, maybe whatever they were getting could be used to pay for the site.

Tis complicated anyway. The existing relationship between family members plays a huge role.

Talking it through is the only hope, even though talking is often the hardest thing of all to do.

lakill Farm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Giving a site for free will cause rows as the farmer will always have a hold over his sibling. Charging full whack for the site is a bit on the greedy side but the sibling can then tell the farmer/brother to eff-off as they're independent.

If the parents had a will and the siblings were to get a certain amount, maybe whatever they were getting could be used to pay for the site.

Tis complicated anyway. The existing relationship between family members plays a huge role.

Talking it through is the only hope, even though talking is often the hardest thing of all to do.

a site for free will cause fights after maybe getting 100 acres of land or more for free? :eek:

I can really see why some parents sell up the farm or lease it out and give the finger to greedy kids thinking they deserve everything

Nekarsulm

Give them a site, and as long as they have their own seperate entrance etc, and don't expect to tap into your well etc, let them do their own thing.
Remember that they may well decide to sell the house in the future, so this may influence where the site should be located.

Life is short.

I had a neighbour, batchelor man in his 80's farming 35 acres, whose sister and husband asked for a site.
They were retired and moving back here from England.

He refused, because it would "spoil a good field".
They bought a house 25 miles away and he passed away 5 years later, alone but for the neighbours popping in when they could.

KatyMac

I made what I now consider a mistake. Mother promised one of my brothers a site when he got married, if he ever wanted to come nearer to 'home'. She died soon after that and no more was ever said for years. Then the brother arrives and asks our father if he could have his site. I felt obligated (I know I shouldn't have as I'd made no promises and the land was mine but......) to let him have it as I'd got the farm.
So himself and family build a house and promptly fell out with me and Dad! I didn't care as we aren't a close family, but I do regret the waste of a nice field:) I had to smile at the wording on the form I had to fill up for the legal bit "the natural love and affection" between the two of us.

Mooooo

Ideally should be sorted b4 the parents hand over anything. Sit down and see and if a big age gap or whatever see if parents can hold ownership of the proposed site when whoever is taking over get the land transferred. Try an pick out a site with least interference and talk about other options if site isn't required. Talk anyway is main advice

kollegeknight

We haven’t many sites on our land- but the places I have planned in my head to use as sites of needed are far away enough that their entrance would be a mile from us but they would be within 10 minutes walking distance from mams house and also far away enough that they need their own well.

Hard Knocks

kollegeknight wrote: »

We haven’t many sites on our land- but the places I have planned in my head to use as sites of needed are far away enough that their entrance would be a mile from us but they would be within 10 minutes walking distance from mams house and also far away enough that they need their own well.

Yes but where you say a good site is & where they want may differ.
The problem with sites is problems can arise from simple farming practices, slurry, machines operating, bull in field
FIL has motto, 1 farm 1 house & I agree

Dinzee Conlee

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Yes but where you say a good site is & where they want may differ.
The problem with sites is problems can arise from simple farming practices, slurry, machines operating, bull in field
FIL has motto, 1 farm 1 house & I agree

It’s easy to talk...

What about when the new young farmer comes of age, wants to get married - what happens the parents? Do they all live in the one house?

I won’t go into any issues with the person getting the farm now maybe having a larger portion to pay to siblings to keep it fair...

No offence - but this motto of your FIL sounds as much a reason for some kinda family falling out as any sites being doled out...

Hard Knocks

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Yes but where you say a good site is & where they want may differ.
The problem with sites is problems can arise from simple farming practices, slurry, machines operating, bull in field
FIL has motto, 1 farm 1 house & I agree

A fairly idiotic policy I must say. The ability for family to live close by is one of the great things about rural living. Unlike a previous poster I think it’s great for parents and a few siblings to all live close by in their own houses.

kollegeknight

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Yes but where you say a good site is & where they want may differ.
The problem with sites is problems can arise from simple farming practices, slurry, machines operating, bull in field
FIL has motto, 1 farm 1 house & I agree

Well we are surrounded by forestry so most of where you could build are destroyed. I built on one of the viable sites. Brother has another one on that separate entrance.

Family can be hard to deal with but I think planning is needed to avoid some difficulties that may arise.

My brother was a nightmare the first year after dad died with regards to the farm. His wife put him straight about things, now I’d be lost without him.

mycro2013

Some very good points here. I suppose my main reason for creating the thread is I've seen cases where one person stayed at home farming while all the rest of the siblings were very well educated.(university Dublin) On the back of the son/daughters work on the homestead.

Said siblings then return again with the paw out looking for sites. Seems a bit greedy on the siblings side. Who ever is left the farm, in an ideal world should be left the farm with no site obligations. No matter how persuasive any daughter or son can be.

TPF2012

I was once of the opinion that you shouldn't destroy a good field by taking a site out of it, but I have changed that mindset. In my own situation I will be left the farm but my 4 siblings will have a site wherever they want on the land. The farm is not viable for a full-time wage and I have it now along with working full-time. If a farm is big enough to provide a wage for someone then will taking a couple of acres out to provide sites for siblings impact that much?. Likewise if the farm cannot provide a full-time wage what is the issue? Having family close by cannot be valued monetary and falling out over a small bit of land to provide them with a home is madness, like the old man who ended up with no family beside him. My siblings have no interest in the farm but I hope they decide to build on the farm, having a support network close is priceless even be it for non farming stuff.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Yes but where you say a good site is & where they want may differ.
The problem with sites is problems can arise from simple farming practices, slurry, machines operating, bull in field
FIL has motto, 1 farm 1 house & I agree

I'd agree with this too, except 1 farm, 2 houses. One for the farmer and one for the parents. But we're lucky enough that we have virtually no road frontage so the site potential is almost nothing.


My parents were of the opinion they would educate/train us to the level we wanted and a sum of money once we left the home to start us off. Only one here now is me and if one of the kids wants to farm, they can pick their own site here. The rest will be educated and trained as far as they want.


It's not like the 70's now where farming was a licence to print money. Margins are tight and getting tighter and I wouldn't force an extra weight on the one farming to provide sites/money for those working elsewhere.


On the sites, there is a family not far from here that gave 3 sites to 3 kids to build, all next to each other. All married and built and had kids. Middle house marriage broke up and son back living with parents and wife left the house and kids. Then she hooked up with another lad and moved him in.


That's not exactly a comfortable existence to be seeing every time you pass the house you built on your site.

arctictree

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

On the sites, there is a family not far from here that gave 3 sites to 3 kids to build, all next to each other. All married and built and had kids. Middle house marriage broke up and son back living with parents and wife left the house and kids. Then she hooked up with another lad and moved him in.

IMO, they should have sold the house and both moved on. I wouldn't have much respect for the new lad either. Who would want to live in that situation?

Muckit

TPF2012 wrote: »

Having a support network close is priceless even be it for non farming stuff.

I agree but is that guaranteed

theyoungchap

Family living in one another hair is a recipe for disaster.
I grew up on a farm in the south of the country, a large family, 1 person interested in the farm. He got the whole place - lock, stock, and barell.
The rest of us made our own way, got our own education, bought our own sites, etc. All live close to home but not at home, and have our own space.
There is such a thing as being too close. If I had been offered a free site I wouldn't have taken it if I was looking at my brother/sister/etc over the fence every morning/evening.
Having your own life and enjoying seeing your siblings, is worth more than any free site.

Siamsa Sessions

Re "1 farm 1 house": does he kinda mean "1 farm 1 boss" and either the parent has signed over the place or he/she hasn't (and therefore the parent is still the boss).

Anyway, I'll be operating a "1 farm 1 house" policy here when the time comes. Our youngsters can have the house as me-self and herself will be moving out and living someplace around the Mediterranean, if she puts up with me for that long!

On a more serious note, succession can be a minefield if one sibling stays at home, working to support brothers/sisters away in university, only for them to then come and ask/demand a site, and possibly not even knowing what fields are part of the farm.

Maybe the farmer should ask their educated sibling to "repay the college loan" if they're asked for a site? 20-25k per year by 4 years?

Support networks with families are great but must develop based on everyone being on an equal footing, not some sense of obligation.

Dinzee Conlee

Muckit wrote: »

I agree but is that guaranteed

But sure nothing in life is guaranteed...

Will the wife stay with you?
Will your job be safe?
Will you crash the car?

Sure you’d never get out of bed if that was your attitude...

Muckit

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

But sure nothing in life is guaranteed...

Will the wife stay with you?
Will your job be safe?
Will you crash the car?

Sure you’d never get out of bed if that was your attitude...

Sure l know well. Life is one big risk. Just the way he said it. I think you'd be giving the site with no strings attached or not at all

lakill Farm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Re "1 farm 1 house": does he kinda mean "1 farm 1 boss" and either the parent has signed over the place or he/she hasn't (and therefore the parent is still the boss).

Anyway, I'll be operating a "1 farm 1 house" policy here when the time comes. Our youngsters can have the house as me-self and herself will be moving out and living someplace around the Mediterranean, if she puts up with me for that long!

On a more serious note, succession can be a minefield if one sibling stays at home, working to support brothers/sisters away in university, only for them to then come and ask/demand a site, and possibly not even knowing what fields are part of the farm.

Maybe the farmer should ask their educated sibling to "repay the college loan" if they're asked for a site? 20-25k per year by 4 years?

Support networks with families are great but must develop based on everyone being on an equal footing, not some sense of obligation.

20/25k per annum ? come out of that sure a lot of farmers kids getting the grant :rolleyes:

Grueller

lakill Farm wrote: »

20/25k per annum ? come out of that sure a lot of farmers kids getting the grant :rolleyes:

Neighbour has 3 in college at tbe moment. He reckons 12k per head. In Dublin.

lakill Farm

Grueller wrote: »

Neighbour has 3 in college at tbe moment. He reckons 12k per head. In Dublin.

bit of gathering in 36k after tax

Grueller

lakill Farm wrote: »

bit of gathering in 36k after tax

No bother to this buck. Never ever idle

Muckit

Better off to have them working and able to claim tax back!!

ml100

Speaking as someone who has spent 3 years trying to get planning permission on their own land (kildare co co f..kers) I don't think this will be an issue in the future as the siblings with off farm jobs won't get planning permission. Some
councils are very anti rural houses at the moment.

Dinzee Conlee

I don’t understand why sometimes these issues are left to become problems before they are discussed...
Why can’t it be said to the person starting college, that their education is their ‘cut’

To be honest, I think an awful lot of these issues are down to people’s own making...

I also think they with fewer people going farming full time, there may be no clear person who should get the farm, or a site or whatever... in these cases, sitting down and talking it all through is evwn more important...

Angus2018

ml100 wrote: »

Speaking as someone who has spent 3 years trying to get planning permission on their own land (kildare co co f..kers) I don't think this will be an issue in the future as the siblings with off farm jobs won't get planning permission. Some
councils are very anti rural houses at the moment.

It's getting harder and harder. Every county around Dublin wants people in nice tidy housing estates and will look for any reason to deny planning permission. Easier to built a data centre than a house on your farm.

Hard Knocks

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

It’s easy to talk...

What about when the new young farmer comes of age, wants to get married - what happens the parents? Do they all live in the one house?

I won’t go into any issues with the person getting the farm now maybe having a larger portion to pay to siblings to keep it fair...

No offence - but this motto of your FIL sounds as much a reason for some kinda family falling out as any sites being doled out...

There’s 3 generations in the house his father built.
If the new farmer builds a new house, what happens the old 1?
Down the road there’s a farm with 3 houses belonging to last 3 generations, only newest is occupied all good houses

mycro2013

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

I don’t understand why sometimes these issues are left to become problems before they are discussed...
Why can’t it be said to the person starting college, that their education is their ‘cut’

To be honest, I think an awful lot of these issues are down to people’s own making...

I also think they with fewer people going farming full time, there may be no clear person who should get the farm, or a site or whatever... in these cases, sitting down and talking it all through is evwn more important...

I think the parents have a lot to answer for as well. The major of these issues have been caused by persuasive siblings constantly spinning a speel about the poor mouth and the parents swallowing it.

Plus it is contributory factor in which lads and lassies walk away from farms. As their being asked to finance their parents retirement, siblings lump-sum as well as seeing after there own interests.

Cattlepen

ml100 wrote: »

Speaking as someone who has spent 3 years trying to get planning permission on their own land (kildare co co f..kers) I don't think this will be an issue in the future as the siblings with off farm jobs won't get planning permission. Some
councils are very anti rural houses at the moment.

I got the same trouble from Kildare county council. Farming the land full time since I left school in 1989 and the told me I had no reason to live in the area. Did you ever hear the like? Planners have a serious chip on their shoulder. I have never sold a site or anything like it. Only other house built on the farm was the mothers. It was a very stressful time

Grueller

In Wexford now the big one is do you qualify as a first time buyer. If either you or your spouse/partner don't then there is no planning for you.

listermint

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

I don’t understand why sometimes these issues are left to become problems before they are discussed...
Why can’t it be said to the person starting college, that their education is their ‘cut’

To be honest, I think an awful lot of these issues are down to people’s own making...

I also think they with fewer people going farming full time, there may be no clear person who should get the farm, or a site or whatever... in these cases, sitting down and talking it all through is evwn more important...

Sure your not wrong I mean 2k a year in fees for 4 years plus they'd all get grants due to being away from home and no money in farming versus an entire land asset.

Sure your education is your cut ....


Thread is full of people who'd prefer to die lonely it seems. Nothing worse than deaths and money to drive the greed out of people.

Dinzee Conlee

listermint wrote: »

Sure your not wrong I mean 2k a year in fees for 4 years plus they'd all get grants due to being away from home and no money in farming versus an entire land asset.

Sure your education is your cut ....


Thread is full of people who'd prefer to die lonely it seems. Nothing worse than deaths and money to drive the greed out of people.

Not saying that has to be the way - the parents might decide to sell the farm once everyone is educated and split the money...

Just that if you don’t discuss and set peoples expectations, it can easily lead to issues...

I agree with you to an extent re the disparity between 4 years in college and the value of a farm... but there are so many factors at play in that discussion...

Grueller

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Not saying that has to be the way - the parents might decide to sell the farm once everyone is educated and split the money...

Just that if you don’t discuss and set peoples expectations, it can easily lead to issues...

I agree with you to an extent re the disparity between 4 years in college and the value of a farm... but there are so many factors at play in that discussion...

Frankly I see no disparity. Either are only the tools needed to make a living.

messy tessy

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

On a more serious note, succession can be a minefield if one sibling stays at home, working to support brothers/sisters away in university, only for them to then come and ask/demand a site, and possibly not even knowing what fields are part of the farm.

Maybe the farmer should ask their educated sibling to "repay the college loan" if they're asked for a site? 20-25k per year by 4 years?

Support networks with families are great but must develop based on everyone being on an equal footing, not some sense of obligation.

Holy smokes. Am glad I was born into the family I was. Speaking as one of the 'educated siblings' who has returned home every summer to help out at silage time (both cuts), covered milkings for weddings and weekends away, babysat next generation of kids, and helped my parents / brother as much as possible while I am home, not from any sense of obligation... I can safely say if I was asked to repay 60k+ in order for a site I would be stunned.

Luckily it's not that environment I grew up in and if the situation of me asking for a site on my parents land, my family would be much more welcoming.

listermint

Grueller wrote: »

Frankly I see no disparity. Either are only the tools needed to make a living.

Or ones a large asset that can be sold for multiple years wages

whelan2

listermint wrote: »

Or ones a large asset that can be sold for multiple years wages

Or a major headache, working 7 days a week. I don't see the big advantage in being given the farm nowadays. Maybe other families see it differently but none of my siblings would want to work the farm here ever.

2OldBoots

I wouldn't be in favor of giving sites. Both my daughters asked for sites but when I discussed it with my son we came to the conclusion that each site would ruin the field they were in and ruin the farm. I told them no and they shouldn't be asking as dowrys are long gone

satstheway

2OldBoots wrote: »

I wouldn't be in favor of giving sites. Both my daughters asked for sites but when I discussed it with my son we came to the conclusion that each site would ruin the field they were in and ruin the farm. I told them no and they shouldn't be asking as dowrys are long gone

I thought someone as old fashioned as you would still give a decent dowry.

whelan2

satstheway wrote: »

I thought someone as old fashioned as you would still give a decent dowry.

Or he'd have the girls at home doing the cooking and cleaning

Count Mondego

I would have no problem giving a site to any of my siblings, but only if they were going to live there. One brother had the bright idea a few years ago to build a few houses and sell them, to which he was told to f#ck off. Family are one thing, but having strangers in complaining about cattle moving on the road or slurry is a headache I can do without.