Serious docking of pay for error

LegacyUser

I have to change some of the specifics of this to make sure I'm not identified.

I have been working as a full time employee at a media business for the last 18 months, with the job usually ticking along quite nicely. I've worked in the business for the last 10 years (very small industry) and have had never had any particular problems with previous places of employment.

However, the boss at this business is...unique. Domineering, fussy, and a bully. He rules with an iron fist. Such as...my start time is 8.30am. But, really, it's 8.20. Later than that....bad timekeeping. So now I come in for 8am every day. I regularly work through break times due to the extent of my workload, and leave at 5.30 or often later due to the nature of the work meaning I can't put stuff off until the morning.

The nature of my work also means that any errors I make are easily and quickly uncovered and, unfortunately, it's also quite easy to make errors. However, these errors are very, very minor (think stuff like an expired event being on the company website two hours after the event has expired). I'm not stupid, I know what errors are 'proper' errors. I figured out the bosses character very quickly and have, up until now, been able to keep errors to an absolute minimum. We're talking 2-3 of this level of error over the last six months.

Three weeks ago, I made a more significant error. Specifics changed but, basically, think of a client's advertisement not running as scheduled in a daily newspaper and, instead, an old advertisement for a different client running. Not ideal, and I hold my hands up. I was under serious pressure on the day it happened and, according to my contract, should have been able to say no to getting the job done due to the time pressures involved. However, the realities of the job (boss being owner/manager and overall God in the company) meant I couldn't say no. I got the job done, but made the error.

The error was uncovered today and I was summoned to his office. Boss, manager and assistant manager there shooting daggers: "Explain yourself". I didn't know what was meant, and asked what was up. "Don't play ****ing games" is what I got back. I asked again, and was told. The total cost of my error to the company is circa 400 euro. I was told that this will be taken from my wages this month. This is around a quarter of my paycheque for the month. There is nothing in my contract regarding errors being paid for by employees.

I told him I will be handing in my notice, keeping completely calm. I'm not hugely concerned about losing the job, due to the toxic environment of the business. I think he realises this, as he didn't seem to know how to respond to the fact that I was voluntarily walking away. I know that, due to the niche nature of the job, he will find it very difficult to find someone to cover the job in any way quickly or competently. It's especially difficult for him due to this business having a well known reputation in its industry for being ****ty to employees.

I have not yet handed in my notice, and have since received an email outlining that I have received a verbal warning (downgraded from the written warning he initially told me). The email outlined that the mistake had cost 'X amount' but nothing regarding my pay being docked. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go ahead with handing in my notice this week but am obviously concerned about being docked. Handing it in will mean I am essentially useless to him beyond this month, making him more likely to dock me.

Is it within his powers to dock me for an error like this? If he does dock me and I can't get him to commit in writing as to why, what can I do? This is a small business - he essentially acts as HR, boss, management, owner, even owning the building. There's noone I can turn to within the organisation and i have no doubt that he is fully capable of docking me thinking I won't respond - he's done it to a few before me who have left.

Any advice?

shar01

Hopefully someone will be along with more expertise than me but I think the Payment of Wages Act 1991 may prohibit this type of deduction.

Sounds like your boss is hellbent on having a day in the Workplace Relations Commission.

TG1

If it's not in your contract, handbook or policies and procedures and you didn't sign anything agreeing he could he is on very shaky ground should you decide to go the wrc route regarding payment of wages as I understand it.

facehugger99

beingdockedforerror wrote: »

Any advice?

Try to find another job would be the main thing.


I'm pretty sure he can't dock your pay either.

sexmag

Speak to an employment solicitor.

If he it doesn't say it in your contract then he has no right to do so.

You can email him and hand in your notice officially and state that you have reviewed your contract extensively and that under no circumstances is your pay to be docked and if it is you will be left with not alternative but too seek legal advice.

Good luck mate

_Brian

Definitely sounds like you need a move to a better workplace.
Now, I’m not sure about handing in your notice straight away though, I’d hold on that depending on how hard it will for you to get into employment ? I’m sure like the rest of us you have bills to pay.

If I were you I’d reply to the email accepting the verbal warning. But as others have suggested point out that docking of wages is not covered in your contract and so not acceptable, and if it happens you will take legal advice on the issue.

Proceed to look for new work and when you have something found hand in your notice. That way you should have no gap on wages, why should you be inconvenienced by a gap in wages over this idiot.

lurker2000

I thought I was the only one working for a tyrant. The company I work for is run by a couple, only the fact that she is a Saint and would suffer financially has stopped previous employees from taking him to a triburneral. It sounds like your working conditions have been made stressful by the bullying tactics of the owner. Get advice asap on where you would stand with a constructive dismissal case, then if you have grounds, use this as ammunition to get your fair payment on leaving. You should leave either way, life if too short to be ground down by that oaf.

Vestiapx

Can’t dock you for an error, he can warn you or put you on less responsible tasks but he can’t withhold your pay.
Don’t quit, take the warning and look for a job where you don’t hate the employer would be my advice.

If the industry is so small is going legal a good idea?

sbsquarepants

I'd echo the advice here - find a new job first, then hand in your notice. In fact to be perfectly honest with you I personally probably wouldn't even bother with the notice, seeing as they are such a shower to work for -I'd just start the new job. He absolutely can not dock your pay, tell him out straight that if your wages is touched you'll see a solicitor straight away - the law applies to bullies as much as it does to everyone else!

I had a similar situation a few years back, I accidentally knocked something over - caused about 15k worth of damage, was my fault but had been flagged over and over that we were seriously understaffed, could have been much worse could easily have killed someone but for the grace of god. There was an enquiry to see what happened all the old time bosses where very understanding, they knew full well it was accident that had been waiting to happen for a long time due to how we were working at the time, but a new operations manager threw the head and started almost shouting "do you have any idea how much this is going to cost?"
"I know how much it's going to cost me" I said and got up and walked out of the room - that was the end of that!

the_pen_turner

Startt on time 8 30
Take your breaks. All of them
Leave on time

If the works not done then it's not your fault. Tell them to hire someone to do the extra work.

seamus

TG1 wrote: »

If it's not in your contract, handbook or policies and procedures and you didn't sign anything agreeing he could he is on very shaky ground should you decide to go the wrc route regarding payment of wages as I understand it.

Even if you did sign anything, he's on shaky ground. Contracts cannot override the law. Withholding pay must be reasonable, proportionate and written notice must be given a week in advance.

That's if it's in contract. If it's not, he's basically stealing.

Roadtoad

The word around Newbridge / Naas is that one of the big German retailers dock wages of people who physically damage stock in their warehouse (not retail). Can another confirm?

Mellor

the_pen_turner wrote: »

Startt on time 8 30
Take your breaks. All of them
Leave on time

If the works not done then it's not your fault. Tell them to hire someone to do the extra work.

The boss can't dock his pay here unless he has grounds to in the contract (which wouldn't be impossible).
But the bold part above is definitively not true either.

the_pen_turner

Mellor wrote: »

The boss can't dock his pay here unless he has grounds to in the contract (which wouldn't be impossible).
But the bold part above is definitively not true either.

What I mean is that if your able to do say 100 operation in the 8hour day. If you do 9 hours then you can do 120 operation.
If your paid for 8 hours then do 8 hours.
If the boss needs 120 operations done each day then they have to hire more staff or increase the paid working day

Mellor

the_pen_turner wrote: »

What I mean is that if your able to do say 100 operation in the 8hour day. If you do 9 hours then you can do 120 operation.
If your paid for 8 hours then do 8 hours.
If the boss needs 120 operations done each day then they have to hire more staff or increase the paid working day

Right, and if that person who should be able to do 100 operations only does 75. That's their fault imo.

Anyway, kinda irelevant to the OP. He's handing in his norice and should get out of there.

MentalMario

Firstly, I think your time here is up but I wouldn't hand in your notice, just yet.

RE the official warning email, I'm pretty sure you have him by the balls if he didn't follow protocol, which is doesn't sound like he did.

If you want to go down that route, is another thing. Personally, I wouldn't. I'd keep tipping away for the next while, while looking extensively for work.

the_pen_turner

Mellor wrote: »

Right, and if that person who should be able to do 100 operations only does 75. That's their fault imo.

Anyway, kinda irelevant to the OP. He's handing in his norice and should get out of there.

i agree with you about the 75. thats the employees fault.

but we can only asume the OP is working to the best of their ability.
problem here is emloyer is wanting more work done than the op can produce in thir working day.
this is putting pressure on the OP and mistakes are happening as a result.


this is very relivent ( i would almost say the crux of the issue) . the op is making mistakes because they are rushing to keep the never ending work load done.


of course theOP could be useless and getting very little done

the_syco

the_pen_turner wrote: »

Startt on time 8 30
Take your breaks. All of them
Leave on time

As above, work to rule. And look for another job.

John_Rambo

I work in (what I think) is the same industry.

A €400 ad repeating instead of running a new ad is minuscule unless there's an offer in the old ad that's going to mean the company running the offer further costing tens of thousands. Is this the case? Even if this is the case, these things happen.

An old ad ran on me once, the new ad wasn't delivered due to ambiguous emails from media and the client. Creative and production got the blame.

The only change was "spring offers" to "summer offers" and a slight seasonal change in the colour palette. The client went nuts, they always do... I don't know why, it's childish and unreasonable.. It was a tiny 5x2 ad.

This crap where management take on the clients drama and start bullying staff is endemic. It's usually management style that leads to these mistakes happening.

Docking of pay to pay for mistakes is ridiculous and very amateurish. They're reaction should be systems put in place where this doesn't happen again and the systems detailed and sent to the client. You're company should pay for the mistake with credit, not money. They can call in favours from the publications.

If you're a designer and you're sending CV's out pm me.

Conservatory

400 euro a week for that hassle?

davo10

John_Rambo wrote: »

I work in (what I think) is the same industry.

A €400 ad repeating instead of running a new ad is minuscule unless there's an offer in the old ad that's going to mean the company running the offer further costing tens of thousands. Is this the case? Even if this is the case, these things happen.

An old ad ran on me once, the new ad wasn't delivered due to ambiguous emails from media and the client. Creative and production got the blame.

The only change was "spring offers" to "summer offers" and a slight seasonal change in the colour palette. The client went nuts, they always do... I don't know why, it's childish and unreasonable.. It was a tiny 5x2 ad.

This crap where management take on the clients drama and start bullying staff is endemic. It's usually management style that leads to these mistakes happening.

If you're a designer and you're sending CV's out pm me.

But the client is paying for a service, should they not get the service they are paying for? If you make a business decision to run a particular offer and the media provider messes it up, I think the client has a reasonable case for being annoyed, considering they will have to take crap from customers if they don't stand by the erroneous advertised offer.

John_Rambo

davo10 wrote: »

But the client is paying for a service, should they not get the service they are paying for? If you make a business decision to run a particular offer and the media provider messes it up, I think the client has a reasonable case for being annoyed, considering they will have to take crap from customers if they don't stand by the erroneous advertised offer.

Of course.

But we're dealing with the internal punishment within the agency/studio here. Docking staffs pay for forced errors instead of restructuring the systems will eat the studio up from the inside out. OP is already handing in their notice.

flatty

There's also no need to go ballistic. I speak as a client. I'd go ballistic if the company wasn't apologetic and offering to rerun the advert as intended. I'd just accept these things happen. Going ballistic at some poor hoor down the phone is counter productive, vindictive and utterly pointless.

fritzelly

Unless, as others have pointed out, it is written in to your contract he cannot take the full amount in the next months wages where it would not be classed as reasonable to dock you a full weeks wages in a single month - taking you below the minimum wage.

That job is not worth that hassle for that kind of money - jobseekers market

How hard up is the company that they cannot afford a €400 euro loss and keep a client happy - seems like a blame game going on to cover up their own inadequacies. Why did the manager not notice something wrong - whats his job?

John_Rambo

flatty wrote: »

There's also no need to go ballistic. I speak as a client. I'd go ballistic if the company wasn't apologetic and offering to rerun the advert as intended. I'd just accept these things happen. Going ballistic at some poor hoor down the phone is counter productive, vindictive and utterly pointless.

I've seen people fired for this crap. One case in particular, a reactive ad was booked very late in the evening for a large Irish semi state company. There was one designer working late on another project and was told to design the reactive ad. There were spelling mistakes and the client approved it.

Some busy body wrote a letter to the Irish Times complaining about the spelling and the agency had to write to the Times, take responsibility for the mistake and the designer that was working late on another project and unfamiliar with the semi state companies brand and tone of voice was fired.

There’s usually a lot more going on in these situations than someone just forgetting to submit a new ad. Late changes, ambiguous directions, media company involved with bookings, creative involved with delivery, complicated delivery procedures, the publication repeating ads without instructions and not copy chasing… When I started out a client told me “better and empty house than a bad tenant” ie; better no ad in the paper than the wrong ad.

fritzelly

John_Rambo wrote: »

I've seen people fired for this crap. One case in particular, a reactive ad was booked very late in the evening for a large Irish semi state company. There was one designer working late on another project and was told to design the reactive ad. There were spelling mistakes and the client approved it.

Some busy body wrote a letter to the Irish Times complaining about the spelling and the agency had to write to the Times, take responsibility for the mistake and the designer that was working late on another project and unfamiliar with the semi state companies brand and tone of voice was fired.

There’s usually a lot more going on in these situations than someone just forgetting to submit a new ad. Late changes, ambiguous directions, media company involved with bookings, creative involved with delivery, complicated delivery procedures, the publication repeating ads without instructions and not copy chasing… When I started out a client told me “better and empty house than a bad tenant” ie; better no ad in the paper than the wrong ad.

Client approved it - all responsibility is then on them. That's why proofs are sent out.

John_Rambo

fritzelly wrote: »

Client approved it - all responsibility is then on them. That's why proofs are sent out.

Big client on a big retainer. Never their fault. Agency lost the client at the next pitch, they'd done amazing work for the semi state, took them from an ill-respected basket case to a media svavy, slick presence including an excellent rebrand.

fritzelly

John_Rambo wrote: »

Big client on a big retainer. Never their fault. Agency lost the client at the next pitch, they'd done amazing work for the semi state, took them from an ill-respected basket case to a media svavy, slick presence including an excellent rebrand.

Well the fault there lies with the agencies line manager (if they are handling big contracts like that they should have been approved before proof sent out) and the state agencies employee who said it looks lovely and signed off on it. Not the poor guy under pressure to do a job he shouldn't have been doing - hope he took them to the work tribunal.

Bit like the case of the OP - minimum wage employee with an absentee manager/owner when it comes to doing his job/running the business

John_Rambo

fritzelly wrote: »

Well the fault there lies with the agencies line manager (if they are handling big contracts like that they should have been approved before proof sent out) and the state agencies employee who said it looks lovely and signed off on it. Not the poor guy under pressure to do a job he shouldn't have been doing - hope he took them to the work tribunal.

Bit like the case of the OP - minimum wage employee with an absentee manager/owner when it comes to doing his job/running the business

Yeah, it's very unfair. But when it comes to blue chip clients and hissy fits the little guy working late will get the bullet. When ads are wrong and the public bring it to the attention of the client all compassion and ethical protocol goes out the window. They want their pound of flesh and they want to look perfect, their own mistakes are passed on to the low hanging fruit for optics.

Mongfinder General

Conservatory wrote: »

400 euro a week for that hassle?

This part has to be made up. That’s €20 grand a year. These guys need to be given a week’s notice and then told to **** off followed up with a claim for bullying and harassment. Total 2 bit ****

davo10

Mongfinder General wrote: »

This part has to be made up. That’s €20 grand a year. These guys need to be given a week’s notice and then told to **** off followed up with a claim for bullying and harassment. Total 2 bit ****

Probably net, while I don't agree with the deduction, the op was probably being overpaid if he/she makes repeated mistakes.

fritzelly

davo10 wrote: »

Probably net, while I don't agree with the deduction, the op was probably being overpaid if he/she makes repeated mistakes.

Errors made were minor - ooh why is that still on the website 2 hours after it finished
You're making out the OP is fecking up all the time.

@OP ever thought of going it alone? Years of experience could be worth a punt.

drunkmonkey

Don't leave until you've secured another job, it's likely your boss knows your next employer. Do not speak any way negative about a previous employer in an interview.

Are you on any kind of bonus structure or is it just a basic wage and he's taking that, if the latter he's having a laugh, throw it up to him but be cute about it and don't blame someone or anything else it's your fault. If your struggling with workload ask him for help, you'd be surprised how some tweaks to your system can free you up.

Ronin247

A notice letter along these lines would be nice for him to receive.... I am sure there are improvements others can add...

Dear Billy Big boss

I hereby tender 2 weeks notice as I feel I am being forced to quit over what I considered a pressure induced error.During my notice period I will be working strictly to my contracted hours of 08:30 to 17:00 and will be taking my statutorily entitled break in full.

Your threat to dock my wages for this error is illegal, as are the many other threats and bullying behavior I have endured and kept a record of over the last 18 months. The stress of this has been making me physically ill for a number of months now.

I feel it is only fair to inform you that as a full time employee my rights are protected under Irish statute and I will be seeking legal advice with a view to taking a constructive dismissal case against you.

beingdockedforerror

fritzelly

Ronin247 wrote: »

A notice letter along these lines would be nice for him to receive.... I am sure there are improvements others can add...

Dear Billy Big boss

I hereby tender 2 weeks notice as I feel I am being forced to quit over what I considered a pressure induced error.During my notice period I will be working strictly to my contracted hours of 08:30 to 17:00 and will be taking my statutorily entitled break in full.

Your threat to dock my wages for this error is illegal, as are the many other threats and bullying behavior I have endured and kept a record of over the last 18 months. The stress of this has been making me physically ill for a number of months now.

I feel it is only fair to inform you that as a full time employee my rights are protected under Irish statute and I will be seeking legal advice with a view to taking a constructive dismissal case against you.

beingdockedforerror

Do not use that - threatening leaving letter is never a good idea no matter how bad the circumstances. Plus as an 18 month employee you don't have as many rights as you think you do.
And as a monthly paid employee there is probably a months notice needed

LionelNashe

_Brian wrote: »

....

If I were you I’d reply to the email accepting the verbal warning. But as others have suggested point out that docking of wages is not covered in your contract and so not acceptable, and if it happens you will take legal advice on the issue.

....

As an employee, do you have to 'accept' or even acknowledge the warning? I'm not saying you should dispute it, but wouldn't you want to reserve the option to say that you disagreed with the warning in the future?

As for the OP's post, it sounds to me like the threat of notice made the boss back down on the unreasonable pay-deduction-threat, or else the possibility of a constructive dismissal complaint is what changed his mind.

jimmycrackcorm

fritzelly wrote:

Do not use that - threatening leaving letter is never a good idea no matter how bad the circumstances. Plus as an 18 month employee you don't have as many rights as you think you do. And as a monthly paid employee there is probably a months notice needed

In the ops case it is otherwise the boss will continue to behave the same.

If at the end of the month on payday, I found out that my pay was being docked, I'd walk out straight away.

fritzelly

LionelNashe wrote: »

As an employee, do you have to 'accept' or even acknowledge the warning? I'm not saying you should dispute it, but wouldn't you want to reserve the option to say that you disagreed with the warning in the future?

As for the OP's post, it sounds to me like the threat of notice made the boss back down on the unreasonable pay-deduction-threat, or else the possibility of a constructive dismissal complaint is what changed his mind.

Can appeal it but in what seems a small business probably not gonna get far and even if not signed still on record. Would only come in to play where it went further as in legal proceedings.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

In the ops case it is otherwise the boss will continue to behave the same.

If at the end of the month on payday, I found out that my pay was being docked, I'd walk out straight away.

Should still try to leave on amicable terms, like saying I can no longer work in this position but thanks for the experience.
As for taking the money from his wage then that would be more legal implications as in this case the employer would very likely be breaking the law by deducting it.

LionelNashe

fritzelly wrote: »

Can appeal it but in what seems a small business probably not gonna get far and even if not signed still on record. Would only come in to play where it went further as in legal proceedings.




Should still try to leave on amicable terms, like saying I can no longer work in this position but thanks for the experience.
As for taking the money from his wage then that would be more legal implications as in this case the employer would very likely be breaking the law by deducting it.

I'm not suggesting appealing it - I'm saying, why would you email the boss and 'accept the warning'? I'd be more inclined to reserve my position and make no comment either way.

fritzelly

LionelNashe wrote: »

I'm not suggesting appealing it - I'm saying, why would you email the boss and 'accept the warning'? I'd be more inclined to reserve my position and make no comment either way.

Just because you don't accept the warning ("signing" it) doesn't mean it doesn't still stand - if that was the case everyone would just refuse to accept them and claim unfair dismissal because the written warnings were not valid because you didn't sign them
Such occasions are always in the presence of witnesses (or should be) so you can't claim it never happened.

LionelNashe

fritzelly wrote: »

Just because you don't accept the warning ("signing" it) doesn't mean it doesn't still stand - if that was the case everyone would just refuse to accept them and claim unfair dismissal because the written warnings were not valid because you didn't sign them
Such occasions are always in the presence of witnesses (or should be) so you can't claim it never happened.

I think you're slightly misinterpreting me. I'm not saying that the warning will not stand if you don't accept it; I'm saying, is there any requirement for the employee to 'accept it', (the other posters words)? In my opinion, there isn't. That's like an implied admission on the employee's part that the error justified the warning. Whether the dispute gets legal in the future, or even if it doesn't, I wouldn't be emailing the boss to 'accept the warning'.

fritzelly

LionelNashe wrote: »

I think you're slightly misinterpreting me. I'm not saying that the warning will not stand if you don't accept it; I'm saying, is there any requirement for the employee to 'accept it', (the other posters words)? In my opinion, there isn't. That's like an implied admission on the employee's part that the error justified the warning. Whether the dispute gets legal in the future, or even if it doesn't, I wouldn't be emailing the boss to 'accept the warning'.

Sorry for the mistinterpretation
With witnesses that you have been given a warning, a signature or lack of means nothing.
Whether the warning was justified should be well laid out in the companies terms of employment as to when verbal and written warnings are justified and where termination is the final result. But any company terms cannot include every eventuality so even while certain circumstances are an automatic warning it doesn't mean the company cannot issue warnings for other things.

Mongfinder General

davo10 wrote: »

Probably net, while I don't agree with the deduction, the op was probably being overpaid if he/she makes repeated mistakes.

€22 grand a year. You can get that almost anywhere. The guy is being treated like a minimum wage punk. He should fcuk them off. Mug them off by ballsing up a few more times on his last day.