Summons for speeding

danyosan

I've been served a summons stating the offence "driving at 0km/h exceeding a speed that would enable the vehicle to stop within a visible distance"

At the time, I was pulled over by an unmarked car, who was driving behind me (too closely, but that's another matter) and was told that I was speeding, although no measurement had happened.

How can I be charged with driving 0km/h over the speed limit?

Whats the advice here, do I just pay it and be done with it?

1hnr79jr65

Get a good solicitor and laugh as he gets this throw out due to summons having incorrect data.

wexie

danyosan wrote: »

Whats the advice here, do I just pay it and be done with it?

Are you sure it's a summons and not a fixed penalty notice? I don't believe you can pay a summons, they are summoning you to court.

If there are payment details then it's a fixed penalty notice, a fine.

rock22

Were you ..

danyosan wrote: »

"driving at 0km/h exceeding a speed that would enable the vehicle to stop within a visible distance"

Probably best to just accept it if you were travelling at an excessive speed

danyosan

wexie wrote: »

Are you sure it's a summons and not a fixed penalty notice? I don't believe you can pay a summons, they are summoning you to court.

If there are payment details then it's a fixed penalty notice, a fine.

It's a summons.

I got the fixed payment notice months ago, but ignored it because it had the same details, and thought they would notice the mistake and forget about it.

It's giving me the option to pay up now to avoid court.

wexie

danyosan wrote: »

It's a summons.

I got the fixed payment notice months ago, but ignored it because it had the same details, and thought they would notice the mistake and forget about it.

It's giving me the option to pay up now to avoid court.

Ah, maybe would have been best to tackle it then .

Like said before I guess get a solicitor and take your chances in court. I'd imagine it may well get thrown out.

Or pay it if you don't want the hassle I guess.

(they don't seem to be great at 'noticing' or admitting to mistakes unless they're made to)

Mellor

danyosan wrote: »

How can I be charged with driving 0km/h over the speed limit?

There's nothing in the line you quoted about "driving over" the speedlimit.
It's presumably supposed to say the speed that you were actually going. Which makes it an obvious typo, as opposed to driving 0km/h over the limit, which is not illegal.

wexie

danyosan wrote: »

I've been served a summons stating the offence "driving at 0km/h exceeding a speed that would enable the vehicle to stop within a visible distance"

Mellor wrote: »

There's nothing in the line you quoted about "driving over" the speedlimit.
It's presumably supposed to say the speed that you were actually going. Which makes it an obvious typo, as opposed to driving 0km/h over the limit, which is not illegal.

Out of curiosity, could it be possible the gard didn't actually get a speed reading but just noticed someone was driving far too fast and pulled them over for it?

danyosan

Mellor wrote: »

There's nothing in the line you quoted about "driving over" the speedlimit.
It's presumably supposed to say the speed that you were actually going. Which makes it an obvious typo, as opposed to driving 0km/h over the limit, which is not illegal.

I was paraphrasing, its says 0km/h exceeding a speed, which is pretty much the same thing

danyosan

wexie wrote: »

Out of curiosity, could it be possible the gard didn't actually get a speed reading but just noticed someone was driving far too fast and pulled them over for it?

That is exactly what happened, she was up my backside (which made me go faster) and looked at her speedo.

invicta

danyosan wrote: »

That is exactly what happened, she was up my backside (which made me go faster) and looked at her speedo.

Which means she was breaking the speed limit too?....and tailgating??

danyosan

invicta wrote: »

Which means she was breaking the speed limit too?....and tailgating??

Yes

4ensic15

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

Get a good solicitor and laugh as he gets this throw out due to summons having incorrect data.

A summons is merely a device to get a person into court. Unless the errors on it go to jurisdiction, it won't matter what it says. What will matter is what the oral evidence of the guard is. It will cost more to consult a solicitor than the fine and the fine would probably increase if asinine defence tactics are used.

1hnr79jr65

4ensic15 wrote: »

A summons is merely a device to get a person into court. Unless the errors on it go to jurisdiction, it won't matter what it says. What will matter is what the oral evidence of the guard is. It will cost more to consult a solicitor than the fine and the fine would probably increase if asinine defence tactics are used.

If there are penalty point assigned to FPN then they will have long term impact in terms of cost and also if failed at court the points could increase from judge. The issues is around what is printed on the FPN/Summons in terms of accurate data. minor errors like that in alot of cases are enough for dismissal, regardless of what guard may say.

Also odds of guard attending summons are potentially low depending on jurisdiction.

danyosan

4ensic15 wrote: »

A summons is merely a device to get a person into court. Unless the errors on it go to jurisdiction, it won't matter what it says. What will matter is what the oral evidence of the guard is. It will cost more to consult a solicitor than the fine and the fine would probably increase if asinine defence tactics are used.

That was my fear. I'd love to give my side of the story, but unfortunately I've heard of too many instances of "what the Garda says is gospel" to risk going to court and getting a heavier penalty

invicta

danyosan wrote: »

That was my fear. I'd love to give my side of the story, but unfortunately I've heard of too many instances of "what the Garda says is gospel" to risk going to court and getting a heavier penalty

I’d talk to a solicitor,if I were you. Regardless of her job
(a) she was “up your ass”
(b)driving an unmarked car
(c)has she dash cam footage?—- which would show exactly what happened.
I would presume in this day and age,all Garda cars are fitted with same

4ensic15

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

If there are penalty point assigned to FPN then they will have long term impact in terms of cost and also if failed at court the points could increase from judge. The issues is around what is printed on the FPN/Summons in terms of accurate data. minor errors like that in alot of cases are enough for dismissal, regardless of what guard may say.

Also odds of guard attending summons are potentially low depending on jurisdiction.

The summons will be issued with a hearing date involving the same guard, who will be dealing with a number of summons in a number of cases. The guard will attend. What is written on the summons is not evidence.

Avatar MIA

4ensic15 wrote: »

The summons will be issued with a hearing date involving the same guard, who will be dealing with a number of summons in a number of cases. The guard will attend. What is written on the summons is not evidence.

I got a summons about 10 years ago. There was wrong information on the summons, wrong dates of when we met. The summons was that I was asked to produce my insurance cert at a garda station.



When I was stopped (I can't remember why I was stopped - I think it was a diesel checkpoint, not sure) he said he had asked me to produce my insurance cert at a garda station. I had insurance, and if he had asked me I'd have produced it. There was no other issue from the time I was stopped.



Because I knew the date and didn't recall him asking to produce an insurance cert I called into the garda at his station (also carrying the insurance cert). He checked his note book, said don't bother turning up for the court date and that he'd sort it.



I was a bit worried about not turning up for court on the summons date, but never heard anymore about it.

billybonkers

Just pay the fine it will be less hassle than going to court in all honesty. You were speeding

4ensic15

Avatar MIA wrote: »

I got a summons about 10 years ago. There was wrong information on the summons, wrong dates of when we met. The summons was that I was asked to produce my insurance cert at a garda station.



When I was stopped (I can't remember why I was stopped - I think it was a diesel checkpoint, not sure) he said he had asked me to produce my insurance cert at a garda station. I had insurance, and if he had asked me I'd have produced it. There was no other issue from the time I was stopped.



Because I knew the date and didn't recall him asking to produce an insurance cert I called into the garda at his station (also carrying the insurance cert). He checked his note book, said don't bother turning up for the court date and that he'd sort it.



I was a bit worried about not turning up for court on the summons date, but never heard anymore about it.

Your point being?

wexie

billybonkers wrote: »

Just pay the fine it will be less hassle than going to court in all honesty. You were speeding

That'd be my thinking.

How much is the fine? 80 quid?

Will definitely be less than a solicitor, you don't run the risk of a conviction (we know how much insurance companies love them) or increased points.

that's a lotta grief you can avoid for the sake of some money.

Avatar MIA

4ensic15 wrote: »

Your point being?

The guard knew the information on the summons was wrong and didn't pursue it further.

markpb

invicta wrote: »

I’d talk to a solicitor,if I were you. Regardless of her job
(a) she was “up your ass”

I'd be surprised if someone driving too close behind you was seen as a legitimate excuse for speeding.

invicta wrote: »

Which means she was breaking the speed limit too?....and tailgating??

AGS are allowed to break the speed limit in the course of their duties.

Mellor

danyosan wrote: »

I was paraphrasing, its says 0km/h exceeding a speed, which is pretty much the same thing

It's not the same thing. It's describing a different situation entirely, because English.

Driving at 100km/h, exceeding a speed...

Driving at 100km/h above the speed limit...

Those two lines do not mean the same thing.

Avatar MIA

markpb wrote: »

AGS are allowed to break the speed limit in the course of their duties.

Do they need to have sirens on to do that or can they break the speed limit in unmarked cars with no visible siren/notification of being a garda car? Have been curious about this.

racso1975

wexie wrote: »

That'd be my thinking.

How much is the fine? 80 quid?

Will definitely be less than a solicitor, you don't run the risk of a conviction (we know how much insurance companies love them) or increased points.

that's a lotta grief you can avoid for the sake of some money.

It was 80 he didn't pay that fine so in court it will be more. When I was there 200 and 5 points was the norm.

markpb

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Do they need to have sirens on to do that or can they break the speed limit in unmarked cars with no visible siren/notification of being a garda car? Have been curious about this.

The law just says they’re exempt from certain parts of the Road Traffic Acts when in the course of their duties, it doesn’t mention any specifics about how they should do that. Garda policy may say other things but that would be between the individual members and Garda management.

Avatar MIA

markpb wrote: »

The law just says they’re exempt from certain parts of the Road Traffic Acts when in the course of their duties, it doesn’t mention any specifics about how they should do that. Garda policy may say other things but that would be between the individual members and Garda management.

Interesting, cheers.

NUTLEY BOY

invicta wrote: »

I’d talk to a solicitor,if I were you. Regardless of her job
(a) she was “up your ass”
(b)driving an unmarked car
(c)has she dash cam footage?—- which would show exactly what happened.
I would presume in this day and age,all Garda cars are fitted with same

Presumably that same Garda footage would also provide an evidentiary basis to complain that the garda driver failed to leave an appropriate distance between her and the OP's vehicle in front. If proven, that attracts penalty points too for the lady in blue.

Although there are exemptions for some Garda driving actions I am not aware that it includes driving too close in the circumstances as outlined by O.P., e.g. this was not a hot pursuit.

If OP is contesting this he can presumably obtain the Garda footage by way of discovery.

A negotiated nil all draw would be a good result for OP. i.e. you withdraw the summons for 0 k.p.h. and I will not cross complain about your driving too close.

All best dealt with by a solicitor who knows the particular legal territory.

Claw Hammer

There is no chance of getting footage in the circumstances. There either won't be any, or it would have been "lost". It will all come down to the local DJ. Some invariably take the side of the guards, some give the punter a break.

Lmklad

Avatar MIA wrote: »

4ensic15 wrote: »

Your point being?

The guard knew the information on the summons was wrong and didn't pursue it further.

No the Garda saw you had insurance so didn’t persue it. A summons can be amended on the day in front of the judge.

Lmklad

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is no chance of getting footage in the circumstances. There either won't be any, or it would have been "lost". It will all come down to the local DJ. Some invariably take the side of the guards, some give the punter a break.

Very cynical of you. Gardai are obligated to collect and provide all available evidence. If the footage went “missing” no judge in Ireland would convict. Also very few Garda cars have cameras and the ones that do are speed cameras not cctv.

wexie

Lmklad wrote: »

Also very few Garda cars have cameras and the ones that do are speed cameras not cctv.

Really? I'd have thought they'd all have dashcams this day and age?

Be outrageous if they don't

Lmklad

wexie wrote: »

Lmklad wrote: »

Also very few Garda cars have cameras and the ones that do are speed cameras not cctv.

Really? I'd have thought they'd all have dashcams this day and age?

Be outrageous if they don't

Yup. At a time when the UK are considering supplying body cameras to their ambulance staff Garda cars don’t have dashcam, Gardai don’t have body cams.

davo2001

Jesus Christ, I honestly think some people in this forum live on a different planet.

OP, contact a solictitor, any half decent one will tell you in 5 seconds if you can get off or not, you probably will tbh.

Regarding the Garda driving up your hole, forget about it, nothing will happen and stop wasting your time on it.

wexie

Lmklad wrote: »

Yup. At a time when the UK are considering supplying body cameras to their ambulance staff Garda cars don’t have dashcam, Gardai don’t have body cams.

Jayzus, never even occurred to me that they wouldn't be standard equipment in a garda car these days. Seems like they could save themselves a whole lot of hassle for what would be a relatively minor investment.

(and yes I do appreciate they probably can't just pop into Halfords etc. etc. etc. but still)

billybonkers

Garda do have dash cams, Number plate cams too

Lmklad

wexie wrote: »

Lmklad wrote: »

Yup. At a time when the UK are considering supplying body cameras to their ambulance staff Garda cars don’t have dashcam, Gardai don’t have body cams.

Jayzus, never even occurred to me that they wouldn't be standard equipment in a garda car these days. Seems like they could save themselves a whole lot of hassle for what would be a relatively minor investment.

(and yes I do appreciate they probably can't just pop into Halfords etc. etc. etc. but still)

You’d think so alright. AGS needs a serious amount of investment to bring it up to modern standards.

fatherted1969

If you attended court that day and produced the summons which said you were 0/kph over the speed limit would you need a solicitor to say it's not an offence to drive 0/kph over the limit and you thought it was an error from the guards and you were merely attending court because you were summoned ? Been a long time since I stood up in court to contest a summons (car tax) but I think I'd be chancing that. You admit you were speeding tho and trying to get off on a technicality but up to yourself

Lmklad

billybonkers wrote: »

Garda do have dash cams, Number plate cams too

Those are number plate recognition cameras and speed cameras. They don’t record like a dash cam

Claw Hammer

Lmklad wrote: »

Very cynical of you. Gardai are obligated to collect and provide all available evidence. If the footage went “missing” no judge in Ireland would convict. Also very few Garda cars have cameras and the ones that do are speed cameras not cctv.

Some judges believe all sorts of rubbish from the guards or at least pretend to believe it.

Avatar MIA

Lmklad wrote: »

No the Garda saw you had insurance so didn’t persue it. A summons can be amended on the day in front of the judge.

No, the summons wasn't for not having insurance, it was failure to attend a Garda station with the insurance cert. I would have had an insurance disk in the car at the time when I was stopped.

Lmklad

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Lmklad wrote: »

No the Garda saw you had insurance so didn’t persue it. A summons can be amended on the day in front of the judge.

No, the summons wasn't for not having insurance, it was failure to attend a Garda station with the insurance cert. I would have had an insurance disk in the car at the time when I was stopped.

Yes, by showing the guard your insurance certificate which is what he demanded from you, you negated the reason for the summons.

GM228

danyosan wrote: »

I've been served a summons stating the offence "driving at 0km/h exceeding a speed that would enable the vehicle to stop within a visible distance"

At the time, I was pulled over by an unmarked car, who was driving behind me (too closely, but that's another matter) and was told that I was speeding, although no measurement had happened.

How can I be charged with driving 0km/h over the speed limit?

Whats the advice here, do I just pay it and be done with it?

danyosan wrote: »

It's a summons.

I got the fixed payment notice months ago, but ignored it because it had the same details, and thought they would notice the mistake and forget about it.

It's giving me the option to pay up now to avoid court.

You have not been charged with driving at 0 km/h over the speed limit, rather you have been charged with driving at a speed exceeding that which will enable you to bring your vehicle to a halt within the distance which you can see to be clear. There is no speed limit to break so no speed limit is written on the summons, the charge is not driving at X speed above any limit, rather it is driving at a speed which is not defined in statute.

The charge is contrary to Regulation 7 of the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997 which is an offence contrary to S35 of the Road Traffic Act 1994.

danyosan wrote: »

I was paraphrasing, its says 0km/h exceeding a speed, which is pretty much the same thing

As pointed out above, they are not pretty much the same thing, two totally separate offences and circumstances.

wexie wrote: »

That'd be my thinking.

How much is the fine? 80 quid?

Will definitely be less than a solicitor, you don't run the risk of a conviction (we know how much insurance companies love them) or increased points.

that's a lotta grief you can avoid for the sake of some money.

Was €80, now €160 as it has gone to summons stage.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Do they need to have sirens on to do that or can they break the speed limit in unmarked cars with no visible siren/notification of being a garda car? Have been curious about this.

They just need to be on duty.

Lmklad wrote: »

Very cynical of you. Gardai are obligated to collect and provide all available evidence. If the footage went “missing” no judge in Ireland would convict. Also very few Garda cars have cameras and the ones that do are speed cameras not cctv.

billybonkers wrote: »

Garda do have dash cams, Number plate cams too

Lmklad wrote: »

Those are number plate recognition cameras and speed cameras. They don’t record like a dash cam

Most RPU cars (except the i30s) have the ANPR system and it does record like a dash cam.

Lmklad

What’s RPU?

wexie

Lmklad wrote: »

What’s RPU?

Roads Policing Unit, what they renamed the traffic corps (Or so I believe)

GM228

wexie wrote: »

Roads Policing Unit, what they renamed the traffic corps (Or so I believe)

Correct.

4ensic15

Avatar MIA wrote: »

The guard knew the information on the summons was wrong and didn't pursue it further.

Are you trying to suggest that this establishes a general principle?

seagull

What were the road conditions like at the time? If the summons has "exceeding a speed that would enable the vehicle to stop within a visible distance", then you could be travelling at below the speed limit, but at an unsafe speed. An example would be fog or heavy rain, where visibility is reduced.

wexie

seagull wrote: »

What were the road conditions like at the time? If the summons has "exceeding a speed that would enable the vehicle to stop within a visible distance", then you could be travelling at below the speed limit, but at an unsafe speed. An example would be fog or heavy rain, where visibility is reduced.

Am I the only one thinking shnow when reading this?

AndrewJRenko

danyosan wrote: »

wexie wrote: »

Out of curiosity, could it be possible the gard didn't actually get a speed reading but just noticed someone was driving far too fast and pulled them over for it?

That is exactly what happened, she was up my backside (which made me go faster) and looked at her speedo.

How exactly does another driver's action 'make' you drive faster?