Wolves in France

gunny123

Sobering stuff, Didn't the greenies/lefties want to reintroduce wolves here ?


https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-44538965/wolves-in-france-farmers-fear-attacks

Birdnuts

gunny123 wrote: »

Sobering stuff, Didn't the greenies/lefties want to reintroduce wolves here ?


https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-44538965/wolves-in-france-farmers-fear-attacks

In fairness 200 sheep out of many millions is not exactly huge(especially compared to other sources of losses like disease, weather etc.), plus a programme I saw recently on Nat Geo suggests many of the attacks are actually carried out by feral dogs but because no compo is paid for these kills they are often reported as wolf attacks since compo is paid on those kills. As for wolves killing kids, I think thats rather scaremongering given Italy and Spain have much bigger wolf populations and there hasn't been any reported killing of people for hundreds of years in Euro countries. Indeed the few reported wolf attacks that have been reported over the years have usually been rabies cases. The likes of feral dogs, foxes and racoons are a much bigger risk in that area

I don't know of anyone who has suggested wovles should be brought back here anytime soon, I certainly wouldn't support it since unlike the case in Italy, Turkey etc. we don't have the likes of professional shephards, livestock guardian dogs etc,. Has been some suggestions of bringing them back to the Scottish Highlands alright to tackle over grazing by deer populations in some areas

Also wolves are hunted as game animals in Eastern Europe and are highly prized by the hunting community there.

gunny123

http://wicklownews.net/2017/04/wolves-to-be-introduced-into-the-wicklow-mountains/

Birdnuts

gunny123 wrote: »

http://wicklownews.net/2017/04/wolves-to-be-introduced-into-the-wicklow-mountains/

That was an April fools joke from a few years ago:pac: - I remember it doing the rounds on social media at the time.;)

Tiercel Dave

gunny123 wrote: »

http://wicklownews.net/2017/04/wolves-to-be-introduced-into-the-wicklow-mountains/

Did you notice the date it was reported?.....

Edit, beaten to it by Birdnuts.....

gunny123

D'oh. But i did hear one of the greenies here advocating for the return of wolves, as the deer numbers were increasing so much. But seeing as they are half daft i should not be surprised.

Grizzly 45

Birdnuts wrote: »

IAs for wolves killing kids, I think thats rather scaremongering given Italy and Spain have much bigger wolf populations and there hasn't been any reported killing of people for hundreds of years in Euro countries. Indeed the few reported wolf attacks that have been reported over the years have usually been rabies cases. The likes of feral dogs, foxes and racoons are a much bigger risk in that area

Also wolves are hunted as game animals in Eastern Europe and are highly prized by the hunting community there.

Google Celia Hollingworth in Greece..She might disagree about wolf attacks on humans.

https://www.jaegermagazin.de/jagd-aktuell/woelfe-in-deutschland/niedersachsen-wolf-verfolgt-joggerin/ Report in a German hunting mag with video of a jogger who was stalked by a wolf,and had a lucky escape on a passing farmers tractor.
That and plenty of reports of wolves attacking lifestock in Germany,France,Spain,Greece,etc. Western Europe is too small now for an apex predator that breeds and has moved out even of a massive area like Yellowstone park and is attacking cattle in Montana.

Birdnuts

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Google Celia Hollingworth in Greece..She might disagree about wolf attacks on humans.

https://www.jaegermagazin.de/jagd-aktuell/woelfe-in-deutschland/niedersachsen-wolf-verfolgt-joggerin/ Report in a German hunting mag with video of a jogger who was stalked by a wolf,and had a lucky escape on a passing farmers tractor.
.

Compared to the numbers of people attacked and killed by livestock, pets,wasps,jellyfish, road accidents involving other wildlife like deer etc. the chance of being harmed by a wolf is rather remote. As I said above I don't advocate them returning here any time soon for the reasons outlined but there are large regions of the EU that can support a reasonable population - especially in areas where certain types of stock rearing are already dieing out due to the economics of modern farming. Thats actually the main reason why their populations have increased greatly in the likes of the Alps Spain and Italy where they attract a good few eco- tourists to remoter regions to see them and the likes of Lynx, Bears etc.. Also the wolves you get in Europe are much smaller than the big Timber wolves you get in the US and live in smaller packs with often just a single breeding pair, so they are a less of a "risk" overall.

By all means "problem" individual wolves should be culled but we can't expect the likes of India etc. to maintain highly endangered tiger populations in high populated rural areas if us in the rich West aren't prepared to host at least a modest population of the likes of wolves in certain areas.

PS - Anyways I'm sure you would love the opportunity of bagging a wolf on your doorstep Griz;)

Grizzly 45

True enough about wanting /needing to bag one on my own doorstep...In Germany that is..The watermelon party[Greens] want to rewild a state forest where we live. That means they want man-made structures destroyed including roads, hunting lodges,etc and prohibiting the local farmers from even collecting firewood under ancient Tubridy rights. While having their stock eaten by the wolf pack or bears...:rolleyes:

BTW irrespective of size , they still lunched down on Mrs Hollingworth and no matter what are still dangerous. If the numbers can be kept in check fine, but that doesn't seem to be a plan or concept in the rewilders of Europe.

CelticRambler

Birdnuts wrote: »

Compared to the numbers of people attacked and killed by livestock, pets,wasps,jellyfish, road accidents involving other wildlife like deer etc. the chance of being harmed by a wolf is rather remote. ...

Not sure if your use of the word "kid" in the earlier post refers to kid goats of which there are hundreds around me, where I live in France, or "kid" humans of which there are none :pac:, but assuming it's the latter, then you really need to add "hunters" to the list above - by far the most dangerous predator in the French countryside! The chance of being harmed - or killed - by a hunter is considerably greater than even getting to see a wolf in the wild (an average of about 20 deaths a year, of which two were children last year).


FWIW, our local tourist board ran an ad campaign a few years ago promoting the (nonsensical) idea that wolves eat people ...


Text reads: "It's true, here, they chomp on tourists!"

Having lived in close proximity too them for nearly 15 years, I wouldn't pay too much heed to what French farmers say about anything ... :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

But maybe French wolves have superior taste buds to Greek or German wolves?:rolleyes:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/celia-hollingworth-woman-greece-killed-dogs-wolves-bristol-professor-maroneia-a7967136.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks#2010s and going back thru history.Everywhere from America to Europe to Siberia and Iran. Wolves ,do and have attacked humans.

http://oregonoutdoorcouncil.org/top-wolf-myths-busted-wolves-do-attack-people-do-impact-hunting-do-surplus-kill-et-al/

CelticRambler

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Everywhere from America to Europe to Siberia and Iran. Wolves ,do and have attacked humans.

Historically, yes. And for the most part, that was due to them being infected with rabies. The fear of being attacked by a rabid wolf was (still is) deeply ingrained in the French psyche; that was not the case in ancient Ireland. Until the Norman invasion, Irish people were happy to let wolves run around the countryside unmolested, preferring themselves to chase deer and wild boar.



I'm not aware of any reference to rabid dogs in ancient Ireland; it's quite possible the Normans brought it with them, along with their fear.



In any case, France is now rabies free, and the number of rabid dog/wolf attacks has diminished accordingly. And any campaign group that cites cases from 500 years in the context of a discussion about 21st century biological realities ... well, probably best not to pay too much attention to anything they say. :P

Brontosaurus

The idea that people who care about the environment are 'greenies/lefties' is a bit absurd. Anyone who hunts or is active in the outdoors should care about rewilding and protecting the environment. All of people on this board seem terrified at the prospect of being environmentally responsible.

No one is going to reintroduce wolves into Ireland, there's ****all forest for them and the country is too small to sustain even a single wolf pack without human conflict.

Having said that, wolf attacks on humans tend to be rare, talking about isolated cases over the past 20 years doesn't change that. There have been many reintroduction programmes in the states in places like Yellowstone, there haven't been rampant wolf attacks on people. The issue is wolves attacking cattle which does happen a bit, but there are ways to mitigate it and its up to wildlife services to protect and compensate ranchers/farmers.

People who claim that wolves go out of there way to hunt humans are talking ****e, people who claim wovles don't cause issues for farmers are talking ****e.

It's not an issue here anyway, no one I know within the 'greenies/lefties' community who actually has a job or education in that field is advocating for wolves to be brought back in this country.

Birdnuts

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

True enough about wanting /needing to bag one on my own doorstep...In Germany that is..The watermelon party[Greens] want to rewild a state forest where we live. That means they want man-made structures destroyed including roads, hunting lodges,etc and prohibiting the local farmers from even collecting firewood under ancient Tubridy rights. While having their stock eaten by the wolf pack or bears...:rolleyes:

BTW irrespective of size , they still lunched down on Mrs Hollingworth and no matter what are still dangerous. If the numbers can be kept in check fine, but that doesn't seem to be a plan or concept in the rewilders of Europe.

I've no time for Eamon Ryan types eithier and that version of re-wilding is indeed absurb. But I think the destruction of the German landscape by useless windfarms is by far the worse thing the greens have done there.

Birdnuts

CelticRambler wrote: »

I'm not aware of any reference to rabid dogs in ancient Ireland; it's quite possible the Normans brought it with them, along with their fear.



Iay. :P

Thats true - up until the times of the English plantations, the native Irish had a live and let live attitude to wolves. Problem animals were hunted down but their was no organized attempt to wipe out the species. This changed though with the English settlers who saw wolves in the same light as rebel Irish tribes - to be totally eliminated.... it was a grim time in general for the country's native flora and fauna as nearly all of our majestic native woodland were destroyed by this new regime too

Grizzly 45

Ok.I'm going to refer to those two links I posted,and if you want to deny the reality and historically proven fact that these are apex predators..Would you be quite happy then to let your kids out to play if you know there is a wolf pack in your neighbourhood?

The idea that people who care about the environment are 'greenies/lefties' is a bit absurd. Anyone who hunts or is active in the outdoors should care about rewilding and protecting the environment. All of people on this board seem terrified at the prospect of being environmentally responsible.

Quite a large brush being wielded there by you..
There are more environmentally responsible people here on this page mate,than 100 Watermelons and their anti pals ever have been in Ireland

No one is going to reintroduce wolves into Ireland, there's ****all forest for them and the country is too small to sustain even a single wolf pack without human conflict.

Which is logical and factual. However,don't forget when dealing with Green loons anything is possible.As said you can see it in Germany where they have even suggested introducing bloody BEARS as well.

Having said that, wolf attacks on humans tend to be rare, talking about isolated cases over the past 20 years doesn't change that.

Reallly??Again I refer you to the Wiki link...Did you even read it?? Because it negates your argument

There have been many reintroduction programmes in the states in places like Yellowstone, there haven't been rampant wolf attacks on people. The issue is wolves attacking cattle which does happen a bit, but there are ways to mitigate it and its up to wildlife services to protect and compensate ranchers/farmers.

Yeah,go and ask the ranchers in Montana how much and how easy it is to get compensation from the Dept of Agriculture and the State for wolf-killed cattle.In fact ask the European farmers how easy it is too to get compensation.It is a buck-passing and exercise in excuses..This utter horse **** that somehow these are noble friendly cuddly dogs flies even in the face of what experts who live with wolf packs say.Or dont as one was killed in Stockholm zoo. https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=5155370

People who claim that wolves go out of there way to hunt humans are talking ****e, people who claim wolves don't cause issues for farmers are talking ****e.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::pac: AHEM 3.2 million euros in France and over 10k worth of stock killed in 2016 alone? https://www.thelocal.fr/20180219/france-to-grow-wolf-packs-despite-farmers-anger
I suppose he was killed by somthing other than a wolf?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kenton_Joel_Carnegie

Grizzly 45

CelticRambler wrote: »

Historically, yes. And for the most part, that was due to them being infected with rabies. The fear of being attacked by a rabid wolf was (still is) deeply ingrained in the French psyche; that was not the case in ancient Ireland. Until the Norman invasion, Irish people were happy to let wolves run around the countryside unmolested, preferring themselves to chase deer and wild boar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_in_Ireland Kind of belies alot of statements on this topic.:)Seems a good few of our ancestors featured in the wolves diet.:D

It's hard to tell if, when and where rabies first appeared in Ireland, as it only became a recognised disease in the 18th century seems to have been quite prevalent. https://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/the-eradication-of-rabies/

One thing for sure,if it ever does arrive in Ireland, we in the field sports community will be Fuked big time. The effects on hunting, lamping,gun dogs, horses and fox hunting by horse&hound, livestock and its movement, deer hunting will be tremendous.
Also,from personal experience from getting bitten by a cat as a kid in Germany. You DO NOT want to get the treatment either for rabies getting injected in the stomach a half dozen times a day is extremely painful.But not half as bad of dying of rabies.:eek::eek:

Grizzly 45

Birdnuts wrote: »

I've no time for Eamon Ryan types either and that version of re-wilding is indeed absurd. But I think the destruction of the German landscape by useless windfarms is by far the worse thing the greens have done there.

And encouraged by Frau Merkel,once she switched off two perfectly safe nuke power plants in some irrational fear[for a woman who is a qualified scientist] that Fukushima was going to happen in Germany to them.So much so that just about every roof in Germany has an acre of solar panels, there are windfarms aplenty and biogas plants in every other village.end effect..Rolling brownouts and Germany has had to recommission two old smokey anthracite power plants to take up the slack of the non-moving giant bird slicers,the clouded over or snowed over solar panels,or the exploding biogas farms which dump a few thousand metric tonnes of slurry and animal carcasses into the groundwater and streams.
Conclusion. You still can't run a modern industrial nation on alt power sources.

CelticRambler

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

One thing for sure,if it ever does arrive in Ireland, we in the field sports community will be Fuked big time. The effects on hunting, lamping,gun dogs, horses and fox hunting by horse&hound, livestock and its movement, deer hunting will be tremendous.

Why? Or rather why more than in, for example, France, where there's still a risk of rabies being re-introduced by some rule-breaking traveller (last such canine case 2015, last human case 2017).

That doesn't stop France's traditional hunt from continuing as it has since the Revolution (apart from the lack of new recruits because young lads can't be bothered to get out of bed early enough on a Saturday morning, or absentee landowners declaring their land out of bounds, or the negative publicity everytime some doddery auld fool gets carried away with excitement, forgets to follow the rules and kills some poor woman minding her own business in her garden).

The only "tremendous" effect felt here is on ordinary dog-owners: any pooch that seriously bites someone (regarless of how the dog might have been provoked by the human) is immediately classed as un chien mordeur and subject to two weeks' veterinary surveillance. And if, as in the illegal import case in 2015, a case is confirmed, then every unidentified dog found within the control zone is immediately euthanised (identified by chip or tattoo - no good telling the DSV that you "forgot" to comply with the law, but "Tyson" the black and white staffie playing in the road outside your appartment is definitely yours :rolleyes: )

And again: quoting second-hand examples from (now) 1000 years ago undermines the point you're trying to make with regard to today's breeds. Nevertheless, look at what's actually said in the wikipedia link: "they died an evil death, and their bodies were not buried until wolves and birds preyed upon them", "dead bodies which the sea cast up, and the crows and wolves devoured them" and "The dogs rooted from the graves rotten carcases partly decomposed."

So, like their domestic relatives, wolves are scavengers and will eat any old manky meat. That doesn't count as attacking humans in any significant way.
The reference in 1420 to wolves killing "many people" is a bit vague, but would be consisent with my suspicion that the Normans probably introduced rabies and the savagery and fear of the savagery that comes with it.

Grizzly 45

Comparing like with utter unlike
First off you are dealing with a country that actually handles crises, and has dealt with rabies over its history and actually invests money in combating a disease. Unlike this country.And yes,we have the same thing in Germany of having to inoculate hunting dogs against rabies...How long and how quick do you think everyone in Ireland involved with animals would respond to that??? Do we have stockpiled anti rabies serum in every vet in this country?Up in the dept of Ag national lab :rolleyes:

And again: quoting second-hand examples from (now) 1000 years ago undermines the point you're trying to make with regard to today's breeds. Nevertheless, look at what's actually said in the wikipedia link: "they died an evil death, and their bodies were not buried until wolves and birds preyed upon them", "dead bodies which the sea cast up, and the crows and wolves devoured them" and "The dogs rooted from the graves rotten carcases partly decomposed."

So, like their domestic relatives, wolves are scavengers and will eat any old manky meat. That doesn't count as attacking humans in any significant way.
The reference in 1420 to wolves killing "many people" is a bit vague, but would be consistent with my suspicion that the Normans probably introduced rabies and the savagery and fear of the savagery that comes with it.

And Jan 2018 is this year when a woman was attacked in Ukraine..But believe whatever you want about the noble wolf being some kind of regulator and very human-friendly in nature.[Unfortuneatly history up to the present day says you are wrong] As far as I am concerned they are no more than a very dangerous apex predator that has no place in Western Europe or the Isles anymore,unless very tightly controlled and regulated ...
But no doubt it will take a couple of innocents to get killed by them, before anything is done and after the apologists get thru their hand-wringing and excuses.:rolleyes:

laoch na mona

gunny123 wrote: »

Sobering stuff, Didn't the greenies/lefties want to reintroduce wolves here ?


https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-44538965/wolves-in-france-farmers-fear-attacks

I'd love to see wolves in Ireland, now obviously its a non runner we just don't have the wilderness required but I'm part of nature as much as any other animal so I'd be happy to see more species reintroduced as long as its feasible like with the eagles. I don't understand how some hunters completely oppose any green policy, obviously a green policy that ignore the role of humans in the countryside is flawed but there is something to be said for rewilding and similar policies assuming its done right

The wolf is a great success story, it was more or less wiped out in western Europe and is now reappeared in several places

CelticRambler

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Comparing like with utter unlike
First off you are dealing with a country that actually handles crises, and has dealt with rabies over its history and actually invests money in combating a disease. Unlike this country. And yes,we have the same thing in Germany of having to inoculate hunting dogs against rabies...How long and how quick do you think everyone in Ireland involved with animals would respond to that??? Do we have stockpiled anti rabies serum in every vet in this country?Up in the dept of Ag national lab :rolleyes:

Wha' ?


Which country are you referring to when you say "Unlike this country" - Ireland or Germany?


Ireland's Dept of Ag is well used to handling animal health crises, at least as good as any regional office in France.


And FWIW, no vet in France has anti-rabies serum to hand. Some of them might know who to call to be able to get some the next week (if it's not May, or July or August) ... but why would they? It's only every going to be used on a human, so it's something for the fire service to worry about, not the vet.



And also FWIW, hunting dogs (or any dogs, other than registered "dangerous" breeds) in France don't have to be inoculated against rabies.



If you're really so concerned about this apex predator description, why aren't you agitating for all canid species to be hunted down and eliminated? Wild dogs continue to attack sheep anywhere sheep are grazed, and not-so-wild dogs kill or maim hundreds of humans every year ...

Half-cocked

A small wolf pack established itself near my friends farm in north Germany. The wild pig population has fallen dramatically as the wolves seem to be partial to piglet. Great news if you are an arable farmer, bad news if you like hunting wild pigs. I left some trail cams out last time I was over there but just got a photo of the tip of a tail, might have been a wolf but more likely a fox.

Grizzly 45

CelticRambler wrote: »

Wha' ?

Which country are you referring to when you say "Unlike this country" - Ireland or Germany?

Ireland

Ireland's Dept of Ag is well used to handling animal health crises, at least as good as any regional office in France.

:rolleyes:
I think you have more faith in the Irish system than I do. Someone gets bitten here,"ah its a dog /cat bite." Any reason to inspect the animal for rabies??No because it has never happened here,blah,blah." With free movement of goods and trade and zero customs inspections these days, how can we be assured a rabid animal won't get into the UK or Irl? After all if illegal migrants can smuggle themselves thru the channel tunnel,what to stop an early stage animal walking thru? It bites another animal,and the chain is started in Ireland.Because we discount it actually happening because it hasnt happened in a long time,doesnt mean it can't or won't happen.


A

nd FWIW, no vet in France has anti-rabies serum to hand. Some of them might know who to call to be able to get some the next week (if it's not May, or July or August) ... but why would they? It's only every going to be used on a human, so it's something for the fire service to worry about, not the vet.

On tap in every German vet and hospital.You have to inoculate any pup by 12 weeks as far as I recall, especially hunting dogs.

And also FWIW, hunting dogs (or any dogs, other than registered "dangerous" breeds) in France don't have to be inoculated against rabies

.

EVERY dog in Germany has to be by law inoculated against rabies,even though it is occurring is relatively low.More thanks to proper hunting and pest control.

If you're really so concerned about this apex predator description, why aren't you agitating for all canid species to be hunted down and eliminated? Wild dogs continue to attack sheep anywhere sheep are grazed, and not-so-wild dogs kill or maim hundreds of humans every year ...

Hyperbole...Much??Yes,if you have a pack of wild dogs threatening your livestock or community, eliminate them. Likewise wolves.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=laoch na mona;107408000]I'd love to see wolves in Ireland, now obviously its a non runner we just don't have the wilderness required but I'm part of nature as much as any other animal so I'd be happy to see more species reintroduced as long as its feasible like with the eagles.

And you can see how controversial that was and still is.Yes a few species could be introduced here like Roe deer, wild boar, muntjac, American wild turkey.But the trouble is the unintended consequences into the natural cycle.


I

don't understand how some hunters completely oppose any green policy, obviously a green policy that ignore the role of humans in the countryside is flawed but there is something to be said for rewilding and similar policies assuming its done right

Any hunter worth his salt will be greener than any watermelon sandal wearing, outraged keyboard ecologist who lives in a city.:),and most of these rewilding plans in Western Europe ignore the facts of nature. You cant go back to some sort of medieval primal forest in West Europe where mankind doesn't touch and nature somehow will regulate the populations of game and trees and all the rest.It will be an island surrounded by civilisation and wild animals like humans are lazy.Why would a pack of wolves chase injured deer when they have a herd of fat lazy sheep 10 miles away? Why would a bear grub for maggots when he has your rubbish bins to loot? Why would wild boar, now a real problem on the continent,stay in an oak forest eating acorns when your urban veggie patch is much tastier? Wild animals don't oblige us by conforming to our stereotypes or stay where we like them to be.

The wolf is a great success story, it was more or less wiped out in western Europe and is now reappeared in several places

Think we will let the future decide that one.

CelticRambler

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I think you have more faith in the Irish system than I do. Someone gets bitten here,"ah its a dog /cat bite."

Perhaps my faith in the system comes from knowing the people directly involved (in Dublin and at an EU level) :cool: Just because you don't see "what if" scenarios reported in the Indo doesn't mean there aren't a stack of them sitting on a shelf, waiting to be grabbed and put into action.

Similarly, the human case of rabies that we had here in France last year was a child who was bitten by a puppy (on holidays, in a rabies-endemic country). "Ah sure, it's just a bit of a nip," was her parents' reaction.

But if you really want to get yourself in a twist over something, especially as you raised the free-movement thing, there are far worse diseases going around in Europe these days, most of them insect-borne. Humans - like yourself - have an incredible capacity to refer to historical data and declare with absolute conviction that things couldn't possibly have evolved to a new state, because they've always been the way they were.

I've had deer and wild boar in my garden. The boar might kill me, the deer probably not (although a hunter in the field next-door might well take a shot at me); if a breeding pair of wolves turned up some day, then to answer your question of earlier: yes, I'd let my child play in the garden all the same. They're far more likely to be attacked by snakes, hornets or ticks.

laoch na mona

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[

And you can see how controversial that was and still is.Yes a few species could be introduced here like Roe deer, wild boar, muntjac, American wild turkey.But the trouble is the unintended consequences into the natural cycle.


I

Any hunter worth his salt will be greener than any watermelon sandal wearing, outraged keyboard ecologist who lives in a city.:),and most of these rewilding plans in Western Europe ignore the facts of nature. You cant go back to some sort of medieval primal forest in West Europe where mankind doesn't touch and nature somehow will regulate the populations of game and trees and all the rest.It will be an island surrounded by civilisation and wild animals like humans are lazy.Why would a pack of wolves chase injured deer when they have a herd of fat lazy sheep 10 miles away? Why would a bear grub for maggots when he has your rubbish bins to loot? Why would wild boar, now a real problem on the continent,stay in an oak forest eating acorns when your urban veggie patch is much tastier? Wild animals don't oblige us by conforming to our stereotypes or stay where we like them to be.



Think we will let the future decide that one.

1 introducing non native species like turkey is a bad idea, wolves are like eagles in that they were native to Ireland, but as I said we don't have the habitat anymore

2 inconvenience isn't an argument against wildlife, now there are other arguments against rewilding some of which you touched on such as just how wild ect are worth discussing but ecological balance needs biodiversity, the fact you use watermelon (green on the outside red on the inside) as an insult makes it clear you favour a much less environmentally friendly politics

3 a success as in they survived and bounced back, from the wolves point of view that's a success

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=CelticRambler;107409606]Perhaps my faith in the system comes from knowing the people directly involved (in Dublin and at an EU level) :cool: Just because you don't see "what if" scenarios reported in the Indo doesn't mean there aren't a stack of them sitting on a shelf, waiting to be grabbed and put into action.

And when was one of these paper exercises wargamed in reality???Not in a tabletop computor simulation that usually are reported as "very successful " in our national press by some talking dept head??Because I'd be really intrested to know when a rabies epidemic was war gamed in Ireland??

Similarly, the human case of rabies that we had here in France last year was a child who was bitten by a puppy (on holidays, in a rabies-endemic country). "Ah sure, it's just a bit of a nip," was her parents' reaction.

"Ah shure,nuthin will happenitis" at its best....But then the French and Irish have a rather lassiez faire attitude to things anyway.Wonder what would have been the attitude if their kid had died from rabies??

But if you really want to get yourself in a twist over something, especially as you raised the free-movement thing, there are far worse diseases going around in Europe these days, most of them insect-borne.

Nothing new there either,Malaria, has occured in Europe before as well.Be more worried about getting bit in LIDIL from a false widow spider or the like from their exotic fruit selection.:D

Humans - like yourself - have an incredible capacity to refer to historical data and declare with absolute conviction that things couldn't possibly have evolved to a new state, because they've always been the way they were

.

Humans also have a great defence mechanism,DENYING historical records of past mistakes and experiences to improve or correct their species course...?

I've had deer and wild boar in my garden.

Was there much left?

then to answer your question of earlier: yes, I'd let my child play in the garden all the same. They're far more likely to be attacked by snakes, hornets or ticks.

Your kids,your loss..Hope the Gendarmes and whtever other French organisation involved takes your side.

Grizzly 45

1

introducing non native species like turkey is a bad idea, wolves are like eagles in that they were native to Ireland, but as I said we don't have the habitat anymore

You are hardly likely to be attacked by a wild turkey than a wolf,unless of course you live in South Park.:D:Correct we dont have the habitat anymore for wolves in either the UK or Ireland and very little of it in Europe. They need per pack somthing like 500 square miles to range.it is inevitable that they will come into conflict with mankind,even in places as vast as the US and Russia.

2 inconvenience isn't an argument against wildlife, now there are other arguments against rewilding some of which you touched on such as just how wild ect are worth discussing but ecological balance needs biodiversity, the fact you use watermelon (green on the outside red on the inside) as an insult makes it clear you favour a much less environmentally friendly politics

You forgot the fascist brown and anarchy black pits in the centre.:)Yes I am VERY against Green policies that have anything to do with hunting,fishing,farming or gun control..As the Green policy globally is simply banning it!:mad::mad::mad:
Meddlesome nasty cult members that are no less dangerous than ISIS in my book.

Biodiversity,is achieved by man being the apex predator,he has been since the cave and has now left his mark in controlling nature.we dont need wolves or bears to do the job for us anymore.You want wild country?Go to the Carpathian alps in Romania.Biggest natural forest still in the EU,you can look at wolves and bears to your hearts content there.We don't need them in a Western European society of intense agriculture and population density.

3 a success as in they survived and bounced back, from the wolves point of view that's a success

[/QUOTE]
Well maybe once a few of them have lunched on Celtic ramblers kids or some other misfortunate..Will the excuse be "we mustn't judge ALL wolves behaviour by the action of one solitary wolf?" In that case please apply the same logic and sentiment to all gun owners when someone goes postal again.We'd appreciate it.:)

John_Rambo

I’ve holidayed in North West Spain with the kids. There was an active pack nearby and the locals laughed at the thought of them attacking the kids, the pack was incredibly shy. They told us to be more worried about farmers dogs.

dodderangler

John_Rambo wrote: »

I’ve holidayed in North West Spain with the kids. There was an active pack nearby and the locals laughed at the thought of them attacking the kids, the pack was incredibly shy. They told us to be more worried about farmers dogs.

I'd be more worried about the cattle especially the heifers with calves.
The only damage the wolves would do here is to the livestock. And maybe a dog here and there.
More people are killed every year by cows than dogs and wolves put together.
There's worse things to be afraid of.
In saying that I certainly wouldn't want to come face to face with a pack. But European wolves are a lot different than the big Canadian grey wolf.
They're not much bigger than a coyote over in Europe

CelticRambler

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

... I'd be really intrested to know when a rabies epidemic was war gamed in Ireland??

There's no need to "war game" an epidemic because the chances of seeing an epidemic are miniscule, thanks to on-going (as in every single day) controls across Europe, and in particular at the most vulnerable Dover-Calais crossing.


The last real excercise that I have knowledge of was about three weeks ago (a mandated vet, Irish, working in France, surveiling a suspect French dog). Just because the Dept of Ag has a home in Kildare Street doesn't mean Irish vets aren't working for the good of the country in other territories.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

the French and Irish have a rather lassiez faire attitude to things anyway.Wonder what would have been the attitude if their kid had died from rabies??

She did, when she got home to France.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Your kids,your loss..Hope the Gendarmes and whtever other French organisation involved takes your side.

Haven't lost one yet (well, except to adulthood) ... In any case, I heard on the grapevine that the local Sergeant said he wished the natives reared the children the way I reared mine. :cool:

Grizzly 45

dodderangler wrote: »

In saying that I certainly wouldn't want to come face to face with a pack. But European wolves are a lot different than the big Canadian grey wolf.
They're not much bigger than a coyote over in Europe

And like our foxes, they have become more aggressive and less human shy as they move into our cities and suburbs.So why wouldn't wolves, irrespective of size do the same eventually? All animals will graduate towards an easier food supply than the wild.It's logical as they want an easy life too. Probably the way we humans domesticated the wolf in the first place.

gctest50

The problem here is you'd get some clowns feeding them
Then they'll have more baby wolves n stuff
Then said clown will get tired of feeding them

End up like foxes in the UK


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/woman-mauled-in-bed-by-fox-im-traumatised-and-fear-i-would-contract-rabies-a3868586.html

A woman mauled in her bed by a fox today warned Londoners not to leave windows open in hot weather.

Jodie Nailard, 22, feared she would contract rabies after she woke to find the animal gnawing on her arm in her Clapham flat.

Grizzly 45

CelticRambler wrote: »

There's no need to "war game" an epidemic because the chances of seeing an epidemic are miniscule,

I hate to say it,but that type of saying has been the famous last words of many in their respective fields of human endeavour. Miniscule doesn't mean impossible.What is the plan then if it does get into the Irish wildlife chain?? The Pentagon war gamed a global Zombie apocalypse once too. Granted it is even less likely as a rabies outbreak here,as well as being coincidently happening on Halloween..,but the fact that they did it shows that they don't consider it 100% impossible either.So why should we not consider the impossibility of being possible?
As the "RA" once said post Brighton,you have to be lucky al the time,we just have to be lucky once

The last real excercise that I have knowledge of was about three weeks ago (a mandated vet, Irish, working in France, surveiling a suspect French dog). Just because the Dept of Ag has a home in Kildare Street doesn't mean Irish vets aren't working for the good of the country in other territories.

yes ,most of us call it "work experiance":) ,or "further education" So we have a vet in France looking after a possible rabid dog?Ok,what happens when he comes home?If this was so miniscule a chance of occurrence,why do we have somone in France on the taxpayers dime learning about it?

Birdnuts

gctest50 wrote: »

The problem here is you'd get some clowns feeding them
Then they'll have more baby wolves n stuff
Then said clown will get tired of feeding them

End up like foxes in the UK


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/woman-mauled-in-bed-by-fox-im-traumatised-and-fear-i-would-contract-rabies-a3868586.html

Don't worry - the wolves will nail them foxes:D;). On a more serious note you'll get less meso/generalist predators when you have apex predators present. When white settlers arrived on the American prairies and wiped out wolves(along with the Bison and so much other wildlife:( - the population of coyotes, foxes and racoons exploded and did further damage to farming, ground nesting birds etc.

CelticRambler

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

yes ,most of us call it "work experiance":) ,or "further education" So we have a vet in France looking after a possible rabid dog?Ok,what happens when he comes home?If this was so miniscule a chance of occurrence,why do we have somone in France on the taxpayers dime learning about it?

What are you on about? It's obvious you know nothing about animal health surveillance, but what makes you think that an Irish vet, operating on behalf of the State, with government issued authority to decide if an animal lives or dies for the sake of public health would be on "work experience" ? Maybe you should pay a visit to Kildare Street and ask the vets there to answer your questions. :rolleyes:

Edit: in the meantime, here's your list of "wargames" ... https://ec.europa.eu/food/funding/animal-health/national-veterinary-programmes_en#

John_Rambo

I think you’ve watched “The Grey”
To many times Grizzly!! Very uncommon for Eorpean wolves to attack humans it seems!

Birdnuts

John_Rambo wrote: »

I think you’ve watched “The Grey”
To many times Grizzly!! Very uncommon for Eorpean wolves to attack humans it seems!

Its the return of Jaws to EU waters that scares me!!:eek::pac::D


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44666250

dodderangler

Birdnuts wrote: »

Its the return of Jaws to EU waters that scares me!!:eek::pac::D


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44666250

I don't be more afraid of a conger eel than a gw.

Eddie B

What is the point of re-introducing species which were once native to this country? They are no longer native. You may as well be introducing a new species, because the countryside has changed so much since they were last here.

It's a fairy story idea, for our entertainment and no other reason. If you want to see Wolves, Bears, Lynx, or whatever else, have a day out in Dublin Zoo.

laoch na mona

Eddie B wrote: »

What is the point of re-introducing species which were once native to this country? They are no longer native. You may as well be introducing a new species, because the countryside has changed so much since they were last here.

It's a fairy story idea, for our entertainment and no other reason. If you want to see Wolves, Bears, Lynx, or whatever else, have a day out in Dublin Zoo.

a friend who works in environmental science told me its about restoring lost biodiversity, he was clear about the need to manage it but its basically to undo damage done to the environment.

for the species we reintroduced such as eagles the countryside hasn't changed too much to not make it viable, for things like wolves it has.

Interestingly Ireland now has more forest than 150 years ago, but its mostly conifer plantations

John_Rambo

Eddie B wrote: »

What is the point of re-introducing species which were once native to this country? They are no longer native

Nobody is re-introducing wolves to Ireland.

It was an April Fools joke from years ago.

And people are in hysterics over it.

Eddie B

laoch na mona wrote: »

a friend who works in environmental science told me its about restoring lost biodiversity, he was clear about the need to manage it but its basically to undo damage done to the environment.

for the species we reintroduced such as eagles the countryside hasn't changed too much to not make it viable, for things like wolves it has.

Interestingly Ireland now has more forest than 150 years ago, but its mostly conifer plantations

Yes but what benefit i there to re-introducing eagles or any other species? Well apart from having them around again.

Did you ever see a young lad poke a cow ****e with a stick? The more he pokes at it, the worse it gets. Same rule applies.

Eddie B

John_Rambo wrote: »

Nobody is re-introducing wolves to Ireland.

It was an April Fools joke from years ago.

And people are in hysterics over it.

That wasn't my point. I'm saying re-introducing any species is pointless.

CelticRambler

Eddie B wrote: »

That wasn't my point. I'm saying re-introducing any species is pointless.

Myself and this guy would disagree:





Re-introduced, as a species, to the Swiss Jura in 1965, and it made my day to meet him at the top of a climb a couple of weeks ago. :cool:

John_Rambo

Eddie B wrote: »

That wasn't my point. I'm saying re-introducing any species is pointless.

It's not. We've done it here in Ireland with the raptor re-intoduction program and it's been a success.

Grizzly 45

John_Rambo wrote: »

I think you’ve watched “The Grey”
To many times Grizzly!! Very uncommon for Eorpean wolves to attack humans it seems!

Sorry I don't watch Liam Neeson's crap movies. Mans a hypocrite like the rest of his type in Hollywood and after googling the film ,it looks like I missed nothing either.:)


Lads,believe what ye want on this issue.I couldn't be bothered commenting on this anymore. Believe what you want that an apex predator should have free range in Western Europe heavily managed countryside and urban areas, where it hasn't been indigenous for the last 500 years is a sudden "necessity for our biodiversity" is the height of folly.I'm not saying they have no place in our eco system of Europe,but it needs to be controlled and monitored properly and culled if necessary. Not just left to a "let them get on with it and shure it will be grand" attitude. Things have changed a bit in the landscape of Europe in the last 400 years , when Canis Lupis was still common here.
Pretty good documentary from France about this situation.
Sorry its in German and French but you will get the drift.

https://www.kla.tv/_files/video.klagemauer.tv/umwelt_vid/umwelt_2018-03-17-dieschwerwie/01_umwelt_2018-03-17-dieschwerwie_480p.webm

Grizzly 45

laoch na mona wrote: »

Interestingly Ireland now has more forest than 150 years ago, but its mostly conifer plantations

What we mistakenly call "forest" in Ireland is no such thing!
It is a commercial timber crop of a non-native species .Brought in by an Englishman with the attitude of "no tree planted without profit"Who was the father of Coilte in its various name changes over the last century. A forest does not consist of regimented, dark almost zero ground cover straight future pulpwood. A true forest is an organism, with ground cover, seedlings, saplings and various different species of trees growing, living dying and dead in it, with clearings and clear falls . That supports the life cycle of insects and animals.

In fact, Ireland has apparently the LEAST native natural forest growing in Europe.

Half-cocked

Eddie B wrote: »

That wasn't my point. I'm saying re-introducing any species is pointless.

Especially when the natural habitat of the species is long gone. The Ireland that had wolves had extensive forests and a small human population.

Eddie B

John_Rambo wrote: »

It's not. We've done it here in Ireland with the raptor re-intoduction program and it's been a success.

Yes, but what is the purpose of the raptor re-introduction? Apart from the fact that they are are appealing to us humans, what benefit do they bring to our ecosystem? Would the money used for re-introduction in this country not be more beneficial if it were used on habitat revival, which would help the wildlife we have here, especially those in danger because of habitat loss, and modern farming practices?