Being told off for talking at work

APMagic

Hi,
I have worked in this retail job for a year and a half as a stop gap. New managers have come on board in the past 6 months and making working environment unpleasant. They are blaming the staff for the not getting high enough profits. This company is privately owned and sell local produce. Until these new managers got employed suddenly they had an issue with staff talking.
We are undergoing one to one meetings with two managers about our performance. The common issue they appear to have is talking to other colleagues.  We do our jobs such as stock checks and date rotation. We continuously work to our best ability despite the building has no air con and the place reaches 24 degrees C in the summer. We never talking and “chat” when a customer is waiting to be served. We are not allowed to talk to one another when there are no customers.
Being told off as if I am at school and punished but doing not so nice jobs is really upsetting and isolating. I have never had a job like this. Instead of encouraging staff they find a new rule or job to split us up so we don’t speak. It feels like bullying and power kick than management. They have started writing down times and dates of who spoke to who and when.
Ironically the managers spend 2 hours “chatting in the office”.
I am considering leaving,
Any advice would be appreciated. So I am armed before this meeting happens.

uck51js9zml2yt

Have you asked them why they are taking that approach?

_Brian

Their gaff, their rules.
Get in line or leave.

Peatys

Leave

APMagic

Darian Better Maiden wrote: »

Have you asked them why they are taking that approach?

No. That is something I will ask them. a colleague got quoted "customer service first". Which we have always done. I have gone above and beyond for customers, and get a lot of praise from them. I have even got a customer I was serving stand up for me because they didnt like the tone my manager was treating me.

eviestevie123

Oh my god those managers sound horrible! To treat you all so punitively is really poor on their part. What you describe is perfectly reeasonable that yous talk when there are no customers there and get on with your work even if there is chat now and again. And then to split yous up purposely like that is also a rotten thing to do. And although I don't know the situation, it sounds like complete rubbish and kind of pathetic to blame their "poor sales" on the frontline staff. I highly doubt it has anything to do with you guys (if it is even the case at all).

I also think it sounds unfair to have two managers against one employee like that in a meeting. I thought that you would be entitled to have someone with you ie. another staff member or union rep present during such meetings.

Do you guys have any union or can you join one? Maybe mandate?

I think their behaviour is crap and they shouldn't treat people like that. They could very well end up losing staff if they continue along that course of action. All jobs can get repetitive and lifting your head to chat now and again is necessary I think and good for moral! I'm not sure if I've been much help or not but thought I'd offer some feedback on the issue anywho. I hope you can get some good advice on the topic.

Xterminator

Hi Op

If you a few co-workers join a union, you could see a difference in attitude from management. That's not a bad idea. Things like health and safety at work, (24 degree heat) workplace bullying, union representation etc can all be assisted. It does help if a few of you join together.

Peregrinus

From your description, it sounds like very poor management. This is a very difficult problem to solve from below.

You can either keep your head down and hope that this behaviour will cease when they realise it isn't working to improve profitability, or you can start looking around for better opportunities in more well-managed places elsewhere. Myself, I'd be doing the latter.

davo10

Xterminator wrote: »

Hi Op

If you a few co-workers join a union, you could see a difference in attitude from management. That's not a bad idea. Things like health and safety at work, (24 degree heat) workplace bullying, union representation etc can all be assisted. It does help if a few of you join together.

Management do not have to recognise the union.

shakeitoff

Just leave tbh.

Hitman3000

As suggested by others unless the pay is excellent, leave. Plenty of retail work available.

Avatar MIA

What the management are asking you to do, or not do in this case is within their remit. Now, I think it's bad management if all the other jobs are being done, and there are no customers in the shop. However, what you think needs to be done to get the shop presentable/arranged may differ to what the manager/owner thinks.


Strangely enough, there is no maximum temperature stipulated in H&S law, so it being over a certain temperature is in itself not an issue, especially if it's only a few days a year where it hits 24 degrees.



With that said, as there is near full employment I'd personally take a dim view IF the managers were simply on a power trip and I would suggest moving to another employer.

Rechuchote

It does sound like horrible management.

But… just to offer a counter-thought for a moment, as a customer I find it kind of off-putting if staff in a shop are chatting to each other and then turning to me as if to say "Oh… are you there?" and serving me, then immediately turning back to their colleagues to continue their more important chat.

Have the management perhaps had customers saying this to them?

APMagic

Rechuchote wrote: »

It does sound like horrible management.

But… just to offer a counter-thought for a moment, as a customer I find it kind of off-putting if staff in a shop are chatting to each other and then turning to me as if to say "Oh… are you there?" and serving me, then immediately turning back to their colleagues to continue their more important chat.

Have the management perhaps had customers saying this to them?

I understand where you are coming from. And I agree. However we have always made a point of a customer being present "can I help you?" or if you are at a till, I dont talk to colleagues because I am engaging with the customer and also the till system means I struggle to multitask, so I concentrate on the work at hand.

APMagic

Avatar MIA wrote: »

What the management are asking you to do, or not do in this case is within their remit. Now, I think it's bad management if all the other jobs are being done, and there are no customers in the shop. However, what you think needs to be done to get the shop presentable/arranged may differ to what the manager/owner thinks.


Strangely enough, there is no maximum temperature stipulated in H&S law, so it being over a certain temperature is in itself not an issue, especially if it's only a few days a year where it hits 24 degrees.



With that said, as there is near full employment I'd personally take a dim view IF the managers were simply on a power trip and I would suggest moving to another employer.

I know I did look into the max temp law, thats why they haven't put money into the building to make it more comfortable. We were asked to do a survey recently and ignored the comments. I have had many customers complaining about the heat too. But it falls on deaf ears. 
Also funny enough one of the managers is in charge of arranging displays and will not let us touch them. If we do something she will find issue with it anyways. So we have in the end stepped back and said you can do it the way you want, because we wont do it correct anyways.

APMagic

mikemac2 wrote: »

APMagic wrote: »

Hi,
I have worked in this retail job for a year and a half as a stop gap. New managers have come on board in the past 6 months and making working environment unpleasant. They are blaming the staff for the not getting high enough profits.

I’ve a feeling this is coming from the owner and the managers are just carrying out instructions

Are you above minimum wage? Maybe they want you all to leave and get in new staff

They are losing staff. They struggle to get anyone to apply for the jobs. The last person hey hired was in their 40s. I quite honestly if some of us go, good luck finding people who want to do the job.

tom1ie

davo10 wrote: »

Management do not have to recognise the union.

They will have to recognise the union if every member of staff gives them notice that they will picket outside the premises.

tom1ie

_Brian wrote: »

Their gaff, their rules.
Get in line or leave.

Would you stop! This isn’t the Victorian era! Workers have rights and they are entitled to be in a workplace that is free from harassment and bullying. This is laid out in the Shaw act, and plenty of acts after. Would you like to work under these conditions?

Bandana boy

Not allowing chat while stocking shelves seems extreme but you could argue that doing a stock check and talking at the same time will lead to mistakes , talking at tills too while there is no customers seems fine but conversation never stops mid sentence when a customer arrives .

Playing devil's advocate maybe repeat infringements on the cases when it's important not to talk has led to a zero tolerance policy

Would certainly be the easiest to enforce rather than taking/arguing every case on its merits

_Brian

tom1ie wrote: »

Would you stop! This isn’t the Victorian era! Workers have rights and they are entitled to be in a workplace that is free from harassment and bullying. This is laid out in the Shaw act, and plenty of acts after. Would you like to work under these conditions?

Your only getting one side here.
Like a previous poster said there is nothing as off putting as workers taking away all the time and customers feeling like an inconvenience to them.

The charting could be ongoing banter and people much the feeling bullied, cutting it back in an effort to stop it.

I don’t believe managers would out of the blue decide it would be great crack to hassle everyone about ordinary chatting in the workplace. There is something behind this push and just because OP mightn’t know what is going on doesn’t mean something isn’t behind it.

I use an office at work and to be honest I wish my boss would do the same. People having full blown conversations about personal stuff and bullying conversations about people. I was on for an hour one day just after lunch and had to endure two “ladies” discussing how sweaty and sticky they were after a lunchtime gym session and they wished they’d had a shower

seamus

This is probably constructive dismissal.

Company not making enough money, new managers come in, make the environment unbearable. Fairly textbook; they need to cut their workforce but don't want to pay redundancy.

In all honesty, OP you're too low down the rung to make a difference here. For your own sake you're better off moving on.

Larbre34

tom1ie wrote: »

Would you stop! This isn’t the Victorian era! Workers have rights and they are entitled to be in a workplace that is free from harassment and bullying. This is laid out in the Shaw act, and plenty of acts after. Would you like to work under these conditions?

Managing staff and enforcing a policy of concentrating on the work and not talking on the floor etc, is not bullying or harassment, its just the job, so long as its the approach taken with all the staff.

Mis-identifying certain workplace norms as bullying and harassment does a major disservice to people genuinely suffering that in their work.

Yes most people wouldnt like it, but Ive heard first hand what is expected of staff in Apple in terms of presenteeism and I wouldn't fancy that either, so i dont plan to seek a job with them.

smalltalk

Stop people talking, that will drive profits through the roof going forward of course:)Best thing that you can do is walk get out because if that's the best idea that these hotshots can come up with the place will probably close anyway.
F*#*ing Spoofers

davo10

seamus wrote: »

This is probably constructive dismissal.

Company not making enough money, new managers come in, make the environment unbearable. Fairly textbook; they need to cut their workforce but don't want to pay redundancy.

In all honesty, OP you're too low down the rung to make a difference here. For your own sake you're better off moving on.

I wish people would stop posting nonsense about constructive dismissal. It might be petty and self defeating to ask staff to focus on their job/customers and not to chat with each other, but that is not CD.

shakeitoff

Staff talking to each other would not be a bad thing to me, there is a line though. A decent person would know how to draw the line between chatting between them and reacting accordingly when a customer is around. I personally find it awkward if staff are too attentive in a retail environment. Everything is there, if I need ya I will come to you. As far as I'm concerned, retail staff like servers perform when the going gets tough, what they do in down time as long as they can step up to the plate when it's back to the walls is what matters.

Avatar MIA

seamus wrote: »

This is probably constructive dismissal.

Asking staff not to chat during work hours? I doubt it, is there any precedent? Genuine question.

Rechuchote

APMagic wrote: »

They are losing staff. They struggle to get anyone to apply for the jobs. The last person hey hired was in their 40s.

So old??? :eek:

5rtytry56

Rechuchote wrote: »

So old??? :eek:

So since I'm over 40 I shouldn't have followed this thread at all.

So


/Unfollow

_Brian

Couldn’t see this being stretched to constructive dismissal if it’s being applied to everyone evenhandedly

Avatar MIA

Rechuchote wrote: »

So old??? :eek:

Any Crypt Keeper roles going? :pac:

seamus

davo10 wrote: »

I wish people would stop posting nonsense about constructive dismissal. It might be petty and self defeating to ask staff to focus on their job/customers and not to chat with each other, but that is not CD.

Sure, I meant it more in terms of their intent, not what it actually is. I should probably have avoided calling it CD, since that's a specific thing.

Nevertheless it sounds to me like the new managers' intention is to make the workplace so unbearable that there'll be high staff attrition.

dr.fuzzenstein

seamus wrote: »

This is probably constructive dismissal.

Company not making enough money, new managers come in, make the environment unbearable. Fairly textbook; they need to cut their workforce but don't want to pay redundancy.

In all honesty, OP you're too low down the rung to make a difference here. For your own sake you're better off moving on.

I fully agree with this one. This has been a fine tradition in a lot of workplaces I have been in in Ireland, don't want to pay people off? Bully them out the door.
As for the attitude of "their gaff, their rules", if anyone in any workplace lays this line on you, the correct answer is "no it's not your rules, workplace rules as defined by labor law, so hop on sunshine".
It's not fcuking slavery anmore. Employers can't just for the crack enforce silly and petty rules. So as long as the gaff is in Ireland, it's those rules or jog on.
As an emplyee you must NEVER be a shrinking violet. Don't say "Oh woe betide unto me, they might be mad at me when I do something they don't like!".
As soon as you're a doormat, you're toast.
You got to have to stomach to pull THEM up and say "not like this me old flower".

Odelay

seamus wrote: »

Sure, I meant it more in terms of their intent, not what it actually is. I should probably have avoided calling it CD, since that's a specific thing.

Nevertheless it sounds to me like the new managers' intention is to make the workplace so unbearable that there'll be high staff attrition.

Sounds to me like the manager wants them to get on with thier job and focus on the task at hand.

shakeitoff

Odelay wrote: »

Sounds to me like the manager wants them to get on with thier job and focus on the task at hand.

They need a sense of perspective. It's selling clothes, not open heart surgery.

dr.fuzzenstein

Odelay wrote: »

Sounds to me like the manager wants them to get on with thier job and focus on the task at hand.

If a manager says "alright, enough chict chat now, get some work done", that is acceptable.
But if a boss says "as a new work directive no conversation whatsoever is allowed at the workplace" there are 2 points.

1: This is not a Russian Gulag and this rule is pretty much against worker's rights.
So this rule cannot ever exist.

2: If this rule doesn't exist, the same then goes for any "inofficial" versipons of that rule, i.e. it is null and void.

So you cannot fall foul of a rule that does not exist and cannot exist.
It cannot be enforced and any disciplinary action based on this rule is illegal.
So in other words, ignore this "rule" and if the company tries to enforce this fallacy, one solicitor's letter will see an end to this joke of a rule.
They'll fall back in line fairly sharpish after that.

So much for "their gaff, their rules". This tomfoolery is easily sorted.
And I wouldn't worry about any "career" implications, it's a fcuking retail job. Sometimes toes need to be trodden on for up their own hole managers to get the point.

tom1ie

Odelay wrote: »

Sounds to me like the manager wants them to get on with thier job and focus on the task at hand.

Sounds to me like the managers a bully who is on a power trip and ignorant of workplace labor law rules.
The op should either move to a different job or seek union help.

lawred2

_Brian wrote: »

Their gaff, their rules.
Get in line or leave.

you think employed managers own the gaff?

davo10

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

If a manager says "alright, enough chict chat now, get some work done", that is acceptable.
But if a boss says "as a new work directive no conversation whatsoever is allowed at the workplace" there are 2 points.

1: This is not a Russian Gulag and this rule is pretty much against worker's rights.
So this rule cannot ever exist.

2: If this rule doesn't exist, the same then goes for any "inofficial" versipons of that rule, i.e. it is null and void.

So you cannot fall foul of a rule that does not exist and cannot exist.
It cannot be enforced and any disciplinary action based on this rule is illegal.
So in other words, ignore this "rule" and if the company tries to enforce this fallacy, one solicitor's letter will see an end to this joke of a rule.
They'll fall back in line fairly sharpish after that.

So much for "their gaff, their rules". This tomfoolery is easily sorted.
And I wouldn't worry about any "career" implications, it's a fcuking retail job. Sometimes toes need to be trodden on for up their own hole managers to get the point.

You are wrong on both points.

APMagic

Many thanks for all your advice. I completely understand where you are coming from with the talking in regards to work. However we do focus on work and pass the time of day with the odd chat. 
One supervisor we all get on well with has the short straw. But if they would be nice and say "could you do this for me please?" or as a joke "come on lets get cracking". We work extra hard to support the supervisor because they are understanding and care about us too. 

Mangers. One manager yells from half way down the shop to break up a conversation. Which often is work related I might add. I have been told off for talking to a colleague by describing me as someone having chit chat at a bus stop. When there are busy days I work hard and dont have time to talk. The other day I got the phrase "enjoying hard work?". I am constantly looking over my shoulder in case they appear and tell me off again. 
When the manager isnt there we all relax and get the work done still. I have brought up with the other manager that I felt I was being targeted a lot. Had an awkward one to one chat with the other manager and they backed off for a couple of weeks.
Oh and one day was so bad I ended up in tears at the end of the day. It honestly feels like a jealousy kick for the managers because us staff support each other.

APMagic

5rtytry56 wrote: »

Rechuchote wrote: »

So old??? :eek:

So since I'm over 40 I shouldn't have followed this thread at all.

So


/Unfollow

Sorry was in relation to pay. Over minimum wage. Pay doesnt seem to be so much the factor as far as I am aware.

APMagic

APMagic wrote: »

5rtytry56 wrote: »

Rechuchote wrote: »

So old??? :eek:

So since I'm over 40 I shouldn't have followed this thread at all.

So


/Unfollow

Sorry was in relation to pay. Over minimum wage. Pay doesnt seem to be so much the factor as far as I am aware.

So bullying us out of job for reducing staff and pay is hard to tell.

Franz Von Peppercorn

smalltalk wrote: »

Stop people talking, that will drive profits through the roof going forward of course,😀 Best thing that you can do is walk get out because if that's the best idea that these hotshots can come up with the place will probably close anyway.
F*#*ing Spoofers

Yes it’s bully boy management for management’s sake. The way to make retail workers more productive is to get more customers. That would take work.

Avatar MIA

APMagic wrote: »

So bullying us out of job for reducing staff and pay is hard to tell.

Sorry, not following your post, were you talking to someone while typing?


Do you mean that the company you are working for have reduced staff and reduced your wages?


Neither would be considered bullying, but contributing factors as to staying.

dr.fuzzenstein

davo10 wrote: »

You are wrong on both points.

I could not find any mention whatsoever on any workplace that enforces total silence by any kind of an official rule. I only found a case where SIPTU are helping Polish workers because they where banned from speaking Polish at any time and place at work and that this was being brought before the equality authority.
I can only guess that the only reason I can't find a single case of this, is because no employer, unless you're working for Doctor Evil or Gunnery Sergeant Hartman, is batsh*t insane enough to make an official rule of total silence at the workplace.
If you do have a case of this, I would genuinely be intrigued to hear of this. If only to put a tattoo of that employers name on my arm so there is absolutely zero chance I ever end up working for these fruitcakes by mistake.

davo10

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I could not find any mention whatsoever on any workplace that enforces total silence by any kind of an official rule. I only found a case where SIPTU are helping Polish workers because they where banned from speaking Polish at any time and place at work and that this was being brought before the equality authority.
I can only guess that the only reason I can't find a single case of this, is because no employer, unless you're working for Doctor Evil or Gunnery Sergeant Hartman, is batsh*t insane enough to make an official rule of total silence at the workplace.
If you do have a case of this, I would genuinely be intrigued to hear of this. If only to put a tattoo of that employers name on my arm so there is absolutely zero chance I ever end up working for these fruitcakes by mistake.

A bit over dramatic. The employer isn't enforcing total silence, they just don't want the staff standing around chatting to each other. It's a bit stupid, but it's not illegal, hence why there is no cases about it.

Rechuchote

a) Join a union - Mandate - all of you. Get the union in to negotiate calmly with the management.

b) If the management don't want you talking to each other about work-related questions, put all those questions through the managers:

"Can you tell me what the stock level of canned tomatoes is, please"

"Susan should be able to tell you that."

"Do I have your permission to ask Susan that question?"

This should fairly swiftly make the managers fairly sick of their nonsense - but only if you do it in a polite, pleasant way.

OMM 0000

Manager here.

I haven't read all the replies.

I have no problem with my team relaxing, ****ing around, going for beers, working from home, whatever, when things are going well, but when things are going badly I expect them to knuckle down, concentrate, and get the job done.

But it goes both ways.

If your employer won't give you any flexibility (i.e. chilled when things are going well) then that sucks.

greasepalm

I drop into a newly opened veg shop and could not believe the banter and craic that was happening from day one,even its a father and son shop with extra staff and plenty of chat between everyone.The amount of turnover and stock has the suppliers flabbergasted has exceeded initial projections.
P S lovely big fridge in shop keeps the whole place cool.Good relations between all maybe i might invest in one of those portable artic air devices for next week?

APMagic

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Manager here.

I haven't read all the replies.

I have no problem with my team relaxing, ****ing around, going for beers, working from home, whatever, when things are going well, but when things are going badly I expect them to knuckle down, concentrate, and get the job done.

But it goes both ways.

If your employer won't give you any flexibility (i.e. chilled when things are going well) then that sucks.

I agree with you there. I can add another to this list now I discovered today. Supervisor we get on with is apparently not to chat with us because she is our supervisor. Not allowed to be our friend. 
Explains a lot why we get cold shoulder and not spoken to like a person with the new managers.

greasepalm

I think thats bad imagine you giving a lift somewhere and you ran a red light would she open her mouth and say stop?
Left hand needs to work with right hand to work better.

CrankyHaus

OP make a confidential report of the excessive temperature to the HSA. They have people who attend workplaces to investigate reported unsafe working conditions and can issue improvement requests to management.

Are you working there more than a year? If so then I'd advise you to have some fun putting manners on these tyrants, as lawful dismissal would require them to go through an onerous procedure that they'll probably mess up.

If you're talking out of their earshot and they shout at you to stop just claim you were discussing a work related matter with your colleague and smile in their face.

Unionising is a good idea too.