Free travel pass at rush hour

XPS_Zero

I usually wait an hour after waking up, having my Expresso and Berocca Boost before reading any news because something will be on the list that will annoy me, a need to DO something about the things I was annoyed about is what pushed me into political involement.

I stupidy broke my one hour rule this morning and noticed this topic of FT passes at rush hour brought up again and it's apparently becoming a thing as some want the civil servant who veered (highly inappropriatly) into political sphere fired. Civil Servants are meant to advise in private and then follow the orders of the govt of the day, not draft their own policy proposals ad hoc.


There has been 1/2 really obvious tweaks to make to the system that's been obvious for years but nobody ever proposes THESE instead they propose this one, one we already tried and concluded didn't work.


He suggested it would mean more space for rush hour commuters.

For those who are unaware, here are the reasons why the Rush Hour ban isn't coming back, the reasons why it was dumped in the first place (yes, we already tried it):

1. Everyone who has one is seriously ill, disabled or over 65 and have a lot of medical appointments to go to, which tend to be slotted together in blocks before 11am and after 2pm (hospital rounds of docs usually done in between). You are told to be in for 6/7/8 but might not get seen until 10:30 depending whos in front of you and what's wrong. In this case you have no choice but to travel on PT

2. There were many farcical incidents where people were sprinting for busses to make it with less than a minute to go, grannys stuck mid journey with no cash when the first bus was late and she could not connect to the second bus etc and the drivers usually just let them go through anyway.


3. It's standing room only on rush hour trains and busses worldwide it does not matter how many travel passes you ditch it will still be busy, that's what rush hour is.

It's a very similar fallacy to the notion that you'd suddenly have a huge rise in fare revenue if you got rid of the scheme.


Most travel pass users, as they thankfully pointed out, intentionally avoid rush hour because it's impossible to get a seat, and when you are sick or old you need one, a crushed 8:00am DART breathing in Lynx, afterhsave, Hairspray and baked in heat is a very uncomfortable place to be. If you see someone with an FT card on your rush hour train it's because they need to be there.

Why I don't hear the more obvious common sense changes being talked about ever I don't know. How about taking them off any of the skangers lucky enough (in their eyes) to have a disability who persecute Luas passengers? How about you don't qualify for one if you've ever been convicted of a crime?
Instead of common sense changes were constantly on this stupid merry go round like ban it for rush hour and (even dumber) means testing it.


I also can't help but notice the snotty FGesque right wing mindset towards the scheme in the phrase "mortgage slaves" it goes back to this notion many seem to have of water carriers and water drinkers, welfare receipiants and workers are two seperate species who never ever ever ever intersect. That''s not how the real world works. We will all take from the welfare fund at some stage in our lives, and we all pay into it. Even the tiny population of 'lifers' (which, with jobseekers time limit of 2 years now are less and less) don't change that. Those people are not "slaves" to mortgages , they wanted to buy instead of rent, and they choose to take on a god damn mortgage, knowing full well what their incomes were, what the costs were etc. They pay their taxes now and their PRSI and USC pays for FT and welfare users now, and when they get sick , unemployed or retire, other people will pay for them. Were a society that's how it works.



I cannot help but note the irony of a Sir Humphrey at the finance dept moaning about lack of space on public transport when it was people like him during the crash that refused to consider a stimulus package finishing Transport 21 which would have, if done, meant way more space on the PT system and no such crush busy service. They thought we could borrow to recapitalize failed businesses like AIB but not to invest in infrastructure. I wonder, if we'd finished the Luas expansion, had BRT, and finished DART UNDERGROUND and Metro North and West....would that = more room on the tranport network?

AlekSmart

Oh dear...Robert Watt has become the latest career Civil Servant to throw a saddle on the Departmental Trojan Horse....

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/calls-for-robert-watt-to-be-fired-after-suggesting-ban-on-free-bus-holders-from-public-transport-in-rush-hour-37032725.html

His remarks,as reported in the meejia,are largely chaff,to which various politicians can then publicly respond,doing (as CJ Haughey did 50+ years ago) their own street-cred a power of good.

Robert Watt is far from the first to direct a withering gaze on the FTP scheme,as can be shown in the recent past...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/peak-time-restrictions-sought-on-free-travel-scheme-1.2334418

Despite rising passenger numbers, funding of €77 million for the scheme has been frozen at the same level for the past five years.

The number of people directly eligible to use free travel has risen substantially over the past decade, up from just over 600,000 in 2001 to more than 820,000 this year year.

A further400,000 people are entitled to travel for free as spouses or companions.

Mind you Mr Watt is also reminding 2018's public that the (non Statutory) Free Travel Scheme,from it's inception was an Off-Peak concession,which was only extended in 2006 by the late Seamus Brennan.

https://m.welfare.ie/en/pressoffice/Pages/pa180906.aspx

However,lurking somewhere deep within Bobby's waffle,will lurk an actual message,warning,call it what you will,pointing to eventual changes.

The Dept of Social Protection Statistical report is always a good place to start...

Total Number of Free Travel Passes in circulation (2016)- 873,254.
Number of new claims cleared (2016)-7,855.

Total FTS Budget for 2016 - €77,112,000

Minister Ross,as befits his role has chosen his words carefully....

“The intervention of a top civil servant into a politically charged area is hugely unusual. As long as I remain Minister for Transport, I will not countenance any reduction in the availability of free transport to senior citizens," Mr Ross said.

The Number of Senior Citizens..ie: OAP's is less than half of the Total FTP holders - 423,921.

What Mr Watt may be eyeing up,on behalf of somebody in another Office,could well be the FTP holders describes as having "No Active Pension"-100,588,or perhaps those FTP holders recorded as,"Others"-9,099.

Up to now,the Department did not provide any public record of the number of Free Travel Passes returned each year,as holders died,or lost their entitlement to them.
This was largely due to the cardboard FT document itself not having any expiry date printed on it,whereas each new Public Services Card with Free Travel concession has an expiry date,after which the card will not function.

This feature,of itself,will assist in ensuring that the Free Travel Scheme budget is being spent on those that deserve it most.

However,long after Mr Watt's head has been delivered on a platter to the baying hordes,somebody else will still have to perform the economic miracle of ensuring that €77,112,000 annually,will fund unrestricted Free Access to Ireland's Public Transport for c.1,300,000 people.

It puts the Loaves & Fishes gig in the ha'penny place

Stephen15

I don't mind FTP holders who are over 65 using their pass for local journies I don't an issue with them having an FTP or people who have a genuine severe physical disability but c'mon the amount of people who are on a free pass because they are a carer for their elderly mother, their son with ADHD or have a makey uppy disability such as chronic fatigue syndrome or a mental illness which doesn't not effect their ability to walk, drive or pay for public transport. I would also imagine a fair proportion of FTP holders are non-nationals.

I also think that FTP should be restricted to with within the Short hop zone it's riddiculous that an FTP holder can go by train to Tralee, Cork, Galway or Westport completely gratis they should be made pay a concessionary fare similar to that of a student or a child on long distance journies.

blanch152

Can we really afford to give free travel to 20% of the population, plus their free companions?

schemingbohemia

Given the wide roll-out of the new PSC that is LEAP enabled surely there should be some data available to see how many FTP users are travelling during rush-hour?

Also, where did Robert Watt suggest this? How was the suggestion termed? Asking questions is something Civil Servants should be doing - so if he said maybe it's time to look again at the use of FTP during rush-hour, or the number of FTP cards in circulation that's not a bad thing.

punisher5112

Simple fix for this charge a small amount for each person travelling, I don't see this happening any time soon.

To be honest over a million elegible to travel for free is shocking for such a small country.

I wonder do gamers now qualify as it's now classed as a disease????

I honestly don't see it changing though.

Abuse of the system should be priority and if they need money so bad inforce the fares and terms that are already in place.

Many pass users chance their arm bringing others not eligible to be on their pass such as a friend on the spouse pass or family member like a brother or sister for example.

It's near impossible to know if the person is a cohabitant or civil partner etc.

Xterminator

@ XPS_Zero why should we not talk about it? Its a discussion to allow people make their point of view? Are you against discussion?

the problem isn't allowing one person to use their pass at peak time, its the volume of people on public transport. And part of that is the number of people with passes, and the number of those allow a free companion.

I don't think that universally voiding the passes at peak time is acceptable, but i do want to see the scheme amended so its fit for purpose, so passes are all only used by the pass holder, and all paper passes need to be voided, and replaced with smart cards, so that only one copy of a pass can be used at any given time & stolen lost passes as immediately suspended.

PlaneSpeeking

XPS_Zero wrote: »

1. Everyone who has one is seriously ill, disabled or over 65 and have a lot of medical appointments to go to, which tend to be slotted together in blocks before 11am and after 2pm (hospital rounds of docs usually done in between).

Sorry but that's just not true.

And you have no idea how annoying it is after shelling out 4 grand a year, and about to begin the second 70 minute train journey off the day - having to stand up all the way while some **** of a family* pile on 1 minute before the off with their FTPs and take over a table.

* I say family but if they've declared bucko is living in the house with them, I'll eat my LEAP card.

PlaneSpeeking

blanch152 wrote: »

Can we really afford to give free travel to 20% of the population, plus their free companions?

No.

The elderly - absolutely, they've paid for it. No question.

Disabled ? Limited use - appointments related to their disability only (no rush hour limit of course).

Anyone else ? Not a hope.

jahalpin

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

No.

The elderly - absolutely, they've paid for it. No question.

Disabled ? Limited use - appointments related to their disability only (no rush hour limit of course).

Anyone else ? Not a hope.

Can somebody please explain how exactly old people paid for this benefit? They paid for and used the bus and train services as they used them, there was no PRSI contribution as part of bus\train fares. The PRSI contributions are used to pay for pensions and healthcare


Most of the train lines were built in the 19th century and most of the buses and trains were paid for by the European Union under the European Regional Development Fund. The majority of the cost (80%) of the recent rail upgrades were also paid for by the EU

PlaneSpeeking

jahalpin wrote: »

Can somebody please explain how exactly old people paid for this benefit? They paid for and used the bus and train services as they used them, there was no PRSI contribution as part of bus\train fares. The PRSI contributions are used to pay for pensions and healthcare


Most of the train lines were built in the 19th century and most of the buses and trains were paid for by the European Union under the European Regional Development Fund. The majority of the cost (80%) of the recent rail upgrades were also paid for by the EU

How about paying taxes and supporting the country for decades ?

Isambard

it's simple. Take away the free travel and you also take away the subsidy and you end up with less services or higher train fares.

schemingbohemia

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

How about paying taxes and supporting the country for decades ?

Most of them probably have but there are a decent portion that may have retired here who have never paid a jot - it's solely granted on age, not contributions.

magicbastarder

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Disabled ? Limited use - appointments related to their disability only (no rush hour limit of course).

this makes my face hurt. what sort of society would be be if we didn't give disabled people a free travel pass?
my parents are both able bodied and in their late 60s/early 70s and there's no way in hell they need it more than someone with a disability.

blanch152

XPS_Zero wrote: »

For those who are unaware, here are the reasons why the Rush Hour ban isn't coming back, the reasons why it was dumped in the first place (yes, we already tried it):

1. Everyone who has one is seriously ill, disabled or over 65 and have a lot of medical appointments to go to, which tend to be slotted together in blocks before 11am and after 2pm (hospital rounds of docs usually done in between). You are told to be in for 6/7/8 but might not get seen until 10:30 depending whos in front of you and what's wrong. In this case you have no choice but to travel on PT

Rubbish, the HSE is paying €25m a year on taxis to get people to hospitals

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-paying-out-70k-each-day-on-private-taxis-34833957.html

Most of them wouldn't be seen dead in a bus.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I cannot help but note the irony of a Sir Humphrey at the finance dept moaning about lack of space on public transport when it was people like him during the crash that refused to consider a stimulus package finishing Transport 21 which would have, if done, meant way more space on the PT system and no such crush busy service. They thought we could borrow to recapitalize failed businesses like AIB but not to invest in infrastructure. I wonder, if we'd finished the Luas expansion, had BRT, and finished DART UNDERGROUND and Metro North and West....would that = more room on the tranport network?

Well, if we saved over €100m a year on free travel passes and taxis for the HSE, then maybe we would have built some more public transport. Add in a few more obvious savings and we could have had the best transport system in the world at no extra cost.

Wishbone Ash

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Most of them probably have but there are a decent portion that may have retired here who have never paid a jot - it's solely granted on age, not contributions.

There 's a large proportion of FTP holders who can't really avail of much of their entitlement as they do not have a bus/train service in their area.

Wishbone Ash

blanch152 wrote: »

Rubbish, the HSE is paying €25m a year on taxis to get people to hospitals

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-paying-out-70k-each-day-on-private-taxis-34833957.html

Most of them wouldn't be seen dead in a bus.....

What is not reported is that it's much cheaper and efficient to make these transfers by taxi than by emergency ambulance. A lot of the time, emergency ambulances are being used to transport ill people when they sould be used for actual emergency situations.

magicbastarder

blanch152 wrote: »

Rubbish, the HSE is paying €25m a year on taxis to get people to hospitals

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-paying-out-70k-each-day-on-private-taxis-34833957.html

Most of them wouldn't be seen dead in a bus.

yes, the HSE don't transport corpses on buses. this is as it should be.

schemingbohemia

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

There 's a large proportion of FTP holders who can't really avail of much of their entitlement as they do not have a bus/train service in their area.

There are bus services all around the country, rail not so much but there are buses virtually everywhere. Obviously those in the cities have much greater opportunity to use services.

Wishbone Ash

schemingbohemia wrote: »

There are bus services all around the country, rail not so much but there are buses virtually everywhere. Obviously those in the cities have much greater opportunity to use services.

Leaving aside great swathes of rural Ireland, there are villages in the greater Dublin area not served by bus or train or have one bus service in the morning and one in the evening.

Vic_08

magicbastarder wrote: »

this makes my face hurt. what sort of society would be be if we didn't give disabled people a free travel pass?.

The same as most other societies. Our Free Travel scheme is far more generous than most countries. England and Wales for example give only off-peak local bus use and 1/3 off rail fares with an annual paid for concession card.

I'd love an explanation for the attitude you and so many others display that unlimited free public transport is a RIGHT and anyone suggesting different is by default a horrible disability/elderly hater.

Also this idea that "the disabled" are a homogeneous group all requiring the same level of support is equally rubbish but of course it is the hardship cases that are always quoted when any mention of disability benefits come up.

Isambard

schemingbohemia wrote: »

There are bus services all around the country, rail not so much but there are buses virtually everywhere. Obviously those in the cities have much greater opportunity to use services.

There are not buses "everywhere". We're lucky , we have 4 or 5 buses a day. All but one go 12 miles to Mallow with the odd one out continuing to Cork City. But if you want to go another way, say, to Newcastlewest or Listowel or Fermoy or Mitchelstown,you're out of luck.

magicbastarder

Vic_08 wrote: »

I'd love an explanation for the attitude you and so many others display that unlimited free public transport is a RIGHT and anyone suggesting different is by default a horrible disability/elderly hater.

i have full use of my legs. i could walk home from the city centre if i wanted (about 4km or 5km). i cycle to work. i have multiple transport options which may not be open to someone with a disability.

not only that, buying a bike is a basically a subsidised option for people who are able to buy through the cycle to work scheme. and when i do take the bus, it is subsidised.
so the notion that someone who may have much reduced mobility options, may have to make way for me, an able bodied man, on *public* transport at rush hour, is a concept which i'm not that used to debating.

plus, there's a certain element of 'there but for the grace of god go i' too. ****it, if it helps for someone with a physical (or mental) disability to be able to hop on a bus to get out to see the world or some friends, i'm happy for my tax to subsidise that.

Qrt

Free travel within the Dublin area for Dublin residents, and 50% discount on national fares. Free LocalLink. Can we agree?

PlaneSpeeking

Qrt wrote: »

Free travel within the Dublin area for Dublin residents, and 50% discount on national fares. Free LocalLink. Can we agree?

If the local link is regular and covers areas not currently covered, absolutely.

Can anyone tell me if you have a FTP and have a partner and unlimited kids, do they all travel free ?

Tickityboo

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

If the local link is regular and covers areas not currently covered, absolutely.

Can anyone tell me if you have a FTP and have a partner and unlimited kids, do they all travel free ?

No they don't all travel for free.

A card with FT on it is for the holder only.
A card with FT+S is for the holder and spouse or partner.
A card with FT+C on it is for the holder and one companion over the age of sixteen to travel together.

PlaneSpeeking

Tickityboo wrote: »

No they don't all travel for free.

A card with FT on it is for the holder only.
A card with FT+S is for the holder and spouse or partner.
A card with FT+C on it is for the holder and one companion over the age of sixteen to travel together.

Cheers that's really helpful.

I have a nephew with autism - he's starting to use PT on his own but having a companion on longer trips is a great idea.

Course he gets the "you don't look disabled" often sadly.

Bray Head

The original free travel scheme included restrictions on use from Monday to Friday from 7 am to 9 am and from 4.30 pm to 6.30 pm. These are peak commuting hours, and there are generally more empty seats outside these times.

The marginal cost of carrying passengers outside peak times is very low.The whole point of the FT scheme was to cheaply make use of spare capacity. 

It was abolished (foolishly) in 2006 at a time of big increases in Dublin Bus's subvention and fleet. Peak hour capacity wasn't an issue between 2009 and 2013 of course when the economy was in the doldrums.

The last five years have seen huge increases in passenger demand at peak hours and regular reports of people unable to board buses or trams. This growth is down to big increases in people at work, who are paying full fare.

The validity of giving free travel to the elderly and disabled - who are by definition not in employment at peak hours - really needs to be questioned.

Bray Head

PS: the number of free travel passes is up about 40% since the peak-time rules were changed in 2006.

end of the road

the peak restrictions were abolished because they were pointless. as said in the first post the amount of ftp holders traveling at rush hour are tiny, and if they are traveling it's because they need to be. if we brought them back and people couldn't get a seat what then? do we start banning people on a certain income from public transport? people need to understand that when they travel on public transport they are not automatically entitled to a seat. to be so you may need to book in advance depending on the operator. public transport is for everyone, not just you or me.

Bray Head

Everyone responds to incentives.

end of the road

Bray Head wrote: »

Everyone responds to incentives.

i'd suggest that isn't true, and even if it was it's not relevant to what is essentially a non-issue.

PlaneSpeeking

end of the road wrote: »

i'd suggest that isn't true, and even if it was it's not relevant to what is essentially a non-issue.

Wha ???

Lord Glentoran

Stephen15 wrote: »

I don't mind FTP holders who are over 65 using their pass for local journies I don't an issue with them having an FTP or people who have a genuine severe physical disability but c'mon the amount of people who are on a free pass because they are a carer for their elderly mother, their son with ADHD or have a makey uppy disability such as chronic fatigue syndrome or a mental illness which doesn't not effect their ability to walk, drive or pay for public transport. I would also imagine a fair proportion of FTP holders are non-nationals.

I also think that FTP should be restricted to with within the Short hop zone it's riddiculous that an FTP holder can go by train to Tralee, Cork, Galway or Westport completely gratis they should be made pay a concessionary fare similar to that of a student or a child on long distance journies.

Given the detailed annoyance the scheme causes to some, it should be retained, and arguably extended.

Isambard

Bray Head wrote: »

The original free travel scheme included restrictions on use from Monday to Friday from 7 am to 9 am and from 4.30 pm to 6.30 pm. These are peak commuting hours, and there are generally more empty seats outside these times.

The marginal cost of carrying passengers outside peak times is very low.The whole point of the FT scheme was to cheaply make use of spare capacity. 

It was abolished (foolishly) in 2006 at a time of big increases in Dublin Bus's subvention and fleet. Peak hour capacity wasn't an issue between 2009 and 2013 of course when the economy was in the doldrums.

The last five years have seen huge increases in passenger demand at peak hours and regular reports of people unable to board buses or trams. This growth is down to big increases in people at work, who are paying full fare.

The validity of giving free travel to the elderly and disabled - who are by definition not in employment at peak hours - really needs to be questioned.

they aren't paying full fares they are subsidised by the pass holders. Take away the passes and either the fares would have to rise or the service cut.

punisher5112

Had two scumbags on earlier no shirts on them, loaded with drink and a further 8 cans to do them on the bus.

Asked them to put tops on or no travel.

1 runs up with the cans while the other whips out his free travel pass with spouse option also.

These were buddies not one another's spouses.

He took a dislike to having to be asked to put top on then starts screaming I'm in for a sh1tstorm as I am discriminating against them and that they are spouses.

Turns out obviously they weren't and then took to name calling and abusing me.

They were saying look your embarrassing us in front of everyone.... Eh no you are doing that yourselves...



They couldn't prove they were spouses as one needs to do so to avail of free travel.


Passengers were delighted they weren't getting on as they were off their heads and would have left upstairs in bits.

monument

blanch152 wrote: »

Can we really afford to give free travel to 20% of the population, plus their free companions?

Can we really afford to give subsidise to people who are clearly going to spend a large chunk of it on running a car?

Because that's what we've doing across social welfare benefits... strange it's never mentioned, but free travel on public transport is. Similar story to how overall public transport costs are clearer, while the cost of private motoring is not.

AlekSmart

It appears that the Independent has had a glimpse of the latest stats for FTP scheme members...

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/over-my-dead-body-ross-slaps-down-talk-of-oap-bus-pass-ban-at-peak-times-37033593.html

2016's membershhip of 873,454 is now apparently 911,000.

Any attempt to put restrictions on the travel pass scheme used by 911,000 people would primarily hit pensioners.

As ever,no media organ wishes to pursue the fact that Pension Age FTP holders make up less than half of the total FTP numbers.

PlaneSpeeking

monument wrote: »

Can we really afford to give subsidise to people who are clearly going to spend a large chunk of it on running a car?

Because that's what we've doing across social welfare benefits... strange it's never mentioned, but free travel on public transport is. Similar story to how overall public transport costs are clearer, while the cost of private motoring is not.

That's a way of thinking I didn't consider! Thanks!

Lord Glentoran

monument wrote: »

Can we really afford to give subsidise to people who are clearly going to spend a large chunk of it on running a car?

Because that's what we've doing across social welfare benefits... strange it's never mentioned, but free travel on public transport is. Similar story to how overall public transport costs are clearer, while the cost of private motoring is not.

Private hauliers and private bus owners are subsidised through the provision of a free permanent way.

Sam Russell

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Private hauliers and private bus owners are subsidised through the provision of a free permanent way.

Not quite. There is motor tax, and excise duty and vat on fuel.

It may not cover the full cost, but it is a contribution.

Also how can the motorway system be charged out - even the toll system is backed by gov guarantees.

Infini

Honestly my own opinion is that the whole scheme in it's current form be canned outright. It's a colossal mess and far too many people are eligible for it. On top of that the State operator's don't get a proper payout from the scheme only a fraction of it and such it's ordinary worker's who get shouldered with the cost's of this whole system. The friend of Watt who coined the term "morgage slaves" is dead on the money on this part specifically because the FTP's are not paying their fare share thanks to the state rather than the OAP's themselves.

Generally I'd replace the whole system keeping the free travel for the OAP's in general but requiring to pay a €1 fare during peak time's. What I would do away with though is the whole companion and spouse system in it's entirety. One card per person. No exceptions. As for the social welfare's and such I'd can it for that group, giving them a concession fare rate only but allowing those found to be causing anti-social behaviour to have their access revoked entirely. People deserve to travel without having these idiot's intimidating them.

Qrt

Infini wrote: »

Honestly my own opinion is that the whole scheme in it's current form be canned outright. It's a colossal mess and far too many people are eligible for it. On top of that the State operator's don't get a proper payout from the scheme only a fraction of it and such it's ordinary worker's who get shouldered with the cost's of this whole system. The friend of Watt who coined the term "morgage slaves" is dead on the money on this part specifically because the FTP's are not paying their fare share thanks to the state rather than the OAP's themselves.

Generally I'd replace the whole system keeping the free travel for the OAP's in general but requiring to pay a €1 fare during peak time's. What I would do away with though is the whole companion and spouse system in it's entirety. One card per person. No exceptions. As for the social welfare's and such I'd can it for that group, giving them a concession fare rate only but allowing those found to be causing anti-social behaviour to have their access revoked entirely. People deserve to travel without having these idiot's intimidating them.

See when you mention "the social welfares," that includes severely disabled people, who without a doubt deserve a FTP. The real root of the problem you seem to mention appears to be drug addict if I'm not mistaken, but they're registered disabled lawfully. We treat anybody with drug problems in this country like vermin, sweeping the whole issue under the carpet, until people are entirely overcome and destroyed by drugs when they likely started off with one or two tablets. Unless the gov actively tries to combat drug addiction, nothing will change

Addle

I travelled on the train with a ftp pensioner yesterday. He was attending a medical appointment.
I'm convinced the pensioners we were sitting beside were only using the train because it was air conditioned and there was free water.

ebbsy

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

jahalpin wrote: »

Can somebody please explain how exactly old people paid for this benefit? They paid for and used the bus and train services as they used them, there was no PRSI contribution as part of bus\train fares. The PRSI contributions are used to pay for pensions and healthcare


Most of the train lines were built in the 19th century and most of the buses and trains were paid for by the European Union under the European Regional Development Fund. The majority of the cost (80%) of the recent rail upgrades were also paid for by the EU

How about paying taxes and supporting the country for decades ?

That's everybody's obligation.

PlaneSpeeking

ebbsy wrote: »

That's everybody's obligation.

You may want to tell everyone who has ever voted for the AAA/PBP/We Want Everything Free mob.

Isambard

Infini wrote: »

Honestly my own opinion is that the whole scheme in it's current form be canned outright. It's a colossal mess and far too many people are eligible for it. On top of that the State operator's don't get a proper payout from the scheme only a fraction of it and such it's ordinary worker's who get shouldered with the cost's of this whole system. The friend of Watt who coined the term "morgage slaves" is dead on the money on this part specifically because the FTP's are not paying their fare share thanks to the state rather than the OAP's themselves.

Generally I'd replace the whole system keeping the free travel for the OAP's in general but requiring to pay a €1 fare during peak time's. What I would do away with though is the whole companion and spouse system in it's entirety. One card per person. No exceptions. As for the social welfare's and such I'd can it for that group, giving them a concession fare rate only but allowing those found to be causing anti-social behaviour to have their access revoked entirely. People deserve to travel without having these idiot's intimidating them.

if you are going down that road, would it not make sense to have a Means Test so that only OAPs on low incomes got the pass.? I hate the assumption people make that all people on Social Welfare are scroungers, it's very far from the truth and I doubt many would swap their comfortable lifestyles with some of them for whom life is one big struggle. What's needed I think is an efficient enforcement scheme to weed out the real scroungers, for FTP and in all other sphere's

Zebra3

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

You may want to tell everyone who has ever voted for the AAA/PBP/We Want Everything Free mob.

Have you got a link to show AAA/PBP “want everything for free”?

PlaneSpeeking

Zebra3 wrote: »

Have you got a link to show AAA/PBP “want everything for free”?

Seriously ??? They're not exactly campaigning for more jobs are they ?

Zebra3

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Seriously ??? They're not exactly campaigning for more jobs are they ?

I’ll take that as a no then.

Infini

Qrt wrote: »

See when you mention "the social welfares," that includes severely disabled people, who without a doubt deserve a FTP. The real root of the problem you seem to mention appears to be drug addict if I'm not mistaken, but they're registered disabled lawfully. We treat anybody with drug problems in this country like vermin, sweeping the whole issue under the carpet, until people are entirely overcome and destroyed by drugs when they likely started off with one or two tablets. Unless the gov actively tries to combat drug addiction, nothing will change

Only because they act like it in all fairness. They chose to go that path noone else made that choice for them. Im all for letting those with severe disabilities like wheelchair users having passes of course but those who self inflicted their "disability" shouldn't automatically be entitled free travel so they can intimidate and harass other people. Staff shouldnt be forced to clean up after them either.