legal action against a school over the use of the cane.

dashcamdanny

I was beaten everyday in school by a teacher when it was legal to do so.

What would be the best coarse of action against the school and teacher over the ongoing upset this has caused me till now, even in my 40s?

Thanks.

TheBoyConor

Statute of limitations applies so you're far to late for a criminal prosecution.

I'm not sure does the limit apply for civil cases also.

I'd say you'd have a hard job on your hands here.

Ken.

All teachers were exempted from prosecution and being sued in 1983 when corporal punishment was banned. A friend tried to do the same and his solicitor told him it wouldn't get to court even

dashcamdanny

Thats unfortunate. thanks for the info.

Hitman3000

dashcamdanny wrote:

What would be the best coarse of action against the school and teacher over the ongoing upset this has caused me till now, even in my 40s?

You could always seek out the teacher if still alive and ask them to justify their actions or just why they thought it ok to beat a child. Their answer may help you move on. I did and I received an apology I won't give a full description here but it helped . I got beaten everyday for 2 years for using my left hand.

TheBoyConor

Tbh the sort of teacher who would beat children senseless day in day out is probably not a nice approachable person that you could just walk up to and talk to and expect them to beg your forgiveness for their cruelty. A certain amount of psychopathy exists in someone who could beat children like that.

Giving them a surprise kick into the teeth might be something they'd be more likely to understand.

Mod
Boards.ie does not condone nor encourage violence

Claw Hammer

Putinbot wrote: »

All teachers were exempted from prosecution and being sued in 1983 when corporal punishment was banned. A friend tried to do the same and his solicitor told him it wouldn't get to court even

Not all teachers were exempt. According to the Department of education guidelines, only the headmaster could use corporal punishment. The headmaster could not use a cane. A lot of the corporal punishment which when done was in breach of the Department of education guidelines. This the exemption in the 1908 Act only protects teacher who uses "reasonable" chastisement.
A big issue might be what you did to deserve it.

_Brian

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You could always seek out the teacher if still alive and ask them to justify their actions or just why they thought it ok to beat a child. Their answer may help you move on. I did and I received an apology I won't give a full description here but it helped . I got beaten everyday for 2 years for using my left hand.

Same here for using my left hand.
Still can’t write properly as a result.

_Brian

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Not all teachers were exempt. According to the Department of education guidelines, only the headmaster could use corporal punishment. The headmaster could not use a cane. A lot of the corporal punishment which when done was in breach of the Department of education guidelines. This the exemption in the 1908 Act only protects teacher who uses "reasonable" chastisement.
A big issue might be what you did to deserve it.

Wait a minute.
That last sentence somehow infers that a kid does anything that deserves severe beating with a meter long stick ?
Can you clarify what you think deserves such treatment ?

drunkmonkey

Maybe get some professional help and invoice Zappone for it. Doubt there's much else you can do, happened most of us of that age group and earlier.
All ours were dished out by lay teachers or nuns and Christian brothers. Don't ever remember the principal dishing out the digs, I'd say there all still fair game but most are dead or in god's waiting room by now.
If there still alive talk to a solicitor if you think it may settle the deamons.

Claw Hammer

_Brian wrote: »

Wait a minute.
That last sentence somehow infers that a kid does anything that deserves severe beating with a meter long stick ?
Can you clarify what you think deserves such treatment ?

It comes down to what constitutes "reasonable chastisement". The punishment must fit the crime.

drunkmonkey

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It comes down to what constitutes "reasonable chastisement". The punishment must fit the crime.

Where's having to kneel on the radiator bars classified, was a favourite punishment in primary school.

_Brian

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It comes down to what constitutes "reasonable chastisement". The punishment must fit the crime.

Again, can you clarify in your opinion what “crime” a schoolgoing kid does that deserves beating with a cane?
Just so we see where the cutoff is regarding this.

Claw Hammer

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Statute of limitations applies so you're far to late for a criminal prosecution.

I'm not sure does the limit apply for civil cases also.

I'd say you'd have a hard job on your hands here.

There is no limitation period on indictable offences.

GM228

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Statute of limitations applies so you're far to late for a criminal prosecution.

I'm not sure does the limit apply for civil cases also.

I'd say you'd have a hard job on your hands here.

It's the other way around. The statute of limitations applies to civil actions, not criminal proceedings.

There are limitations with summary offences for "makig a complaint" to initiate the proceesings (generally 6 months, but higher in certain circumstances), but that in itself does not limit how long it takes to bring someone to justice.

For indictable offences (or indictable offences tried summarily) there is no timeframe.

thebull85

Has the state ever apologised for this brutality against children?

rock22

thebull85 wrote: »

Has the state ever apologised for this brutality against children?

It would be nice to see the ASTI, INTO etc apologise for it. One teacher did write an article about 10 yrs ago in Ir Times but, as far as I know, no teachers ever apologised.

If you are only forty then that suggests the punishments happened after the ban. Can you clarify?

Claw Hammer

_Brian wrote: »

Again, can you clarify in your opinion what “crime” a schoolgoing kid does that deserves beating with a cane?
Just so we see where the cutoff is regarding this.

Misbehaviour.

Rented Mule

I attended school in the States. Last week, a friend posted the obituary to the nun that we had for kindergarten. She had to take it down shortly after because of the stories that were being told.

I have to be honest that I felt a rage of anger thinking about her. I honestly thought that she was long dead before reading the obit. It would have been nice to see her one last time to let her know what I thought about her.

Rot in hell.

Hitman3000

Claw Hammer wrote:

Misbehaviour.

Historically, writing with the left hand as opposed to the right is justification to strike a child repeatedly ?

dashcamdanny

thebull85 wrote: »

Has the state ever apologised for this brutality against children?

I happened to go to primary school in N.Ireland. WOuld I need to use a solicitor from Northern Ireland?

I was beaten for refusing to learn my tables.

The more he hit me, the more determined I became to not learn them. This went on every morning. I was never disruptive.

I could not face this man now without decking him. And maybe worse.

Teachers like that knock the confidence out of children at a young age. I would love to see the same happen back on them.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

johnnyskeleton

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I happened to go to primary school in N.Ireland. WOuld I need to use a solicitor from Northern Ireland?.

Yes. Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

walshb

Caning children....dirty animals they were back then..

I remember aged 4 or 5 being asked to put my hand out and then a grown adult female teacher whacking me with a wooden ruler...

What sort of human conceives this? Got to be sadists!

GerardKeating

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Historically, writing with the left hand as opposed to the right is justification to strike a child repeatedly ?

Depends on the school/teachers.

It was never a problem for me, but (in secondary school) i meet a few student whom were "cured" of being left handed in primary schools.

rock22

GerardKeating wrote: »

Depends on the school/teachers.

It was never a problem for me, but (in secondary school) i meet a few student whom were "cured" of being left handed in primary schools.

No, it was common in the thirties/forties and earlier. The thinking on being left handed this had changed by the fifties. I am lefthanded, was in school in the fifties and and grandparents had memories of trying to get left handed to right with the right hand.

Hitman3000

rock22 wrote:

No, it was common in the thirties/forties and earlier. The thinking on being left handed this had changed by the fifties. I am lefthanded, was in school in the fifties and and grandparents had memories of trying to get left handed to right with the right hand.

I started school in 1976 not sure what you think had changed regards lefthandedness. Despite teachers being told I was a complete ciatog I was beaten on a daily basis for 2 years. It stopped when my father after seeing me unable to sit because of pain turning up to the school and physically threatening the teacher for the beatings to stop. I was 4 when it started.

_Brian

rock22 wrote: »

No, it was common in the thirties/forties and earlier. The thinking on being left handed this had changed by the fifties. I am lefthanded, was in school in the fifties and and grandparents had memories of trying to get left handed to right with the right hand.

I started school in the mid 70’s and was beaten daily for using my left hand to write.

galvo_clare

_Brian wrote: »

Same here for using my left hand.
Still can’t write properly as a result.

Have a clear recollection of seeing the ceiling of the classroom after being knocked to the floor for using my left hand. That would have been senior infants so 5 or 6 years old I reckon.
Used to see the teacher regularly for years afterwards and she’s still alive. Chose to forget about it though and I don’t hold a grudge.
Still a ciotog though.

_Brian

galvo_clare wrote: »

Have a clear recollection of seeing the ceiling of the classroom after being knocked to the floor for using my left hand. That would have been senior infants so 5 or 6 years old I reckon.
Used to see the teacher regularly for years afterwards and she’s still alive. Chose to forget about it though and I don’t hold a grudge.
Still a ciotog though.

Thankfully my teacher dies a slow lingering painful death from cancer, justice served at last. Few years ago I met the other lefty that was in my class who was beaten as well and we enjoyed chatting about her horrible death.

.......

This post has been deleted.

splinter65

....... wrote: »

I wasnt left handed but I was beaten by nuns in school.

One beating in particular stands out, I was sent to the office for some transgression or other (perhaps I was talking in class) and the head mistress took a metre stick to me. I was 6 or 7 years old. She held me by the arm and began to beat me across the backside. As I was so small the metre stick just wasnt effective enough because I was too close to her hand (law of the lever!) so she dropped it and continued just using her hand. In fright I wet myself (the blows were far harder by hand) and of course her hand got wet at which point she became apoplectic with rage and beat me even harder. I remember seeing the ceiling. I must have passed out.

I was then put onto a wooden chair and told to wait for my mother. They must have sent someone to the house because we had no phone then. My mother arrived and looked ashamed, she apologised to the woman and took me home and was angry with me. It hurt even more that my mother didnt stand up to these sadists for me. After that I began to suffer anxiety that would reach a peak on Sunday evenings with the thoughts of school the next day and I would cry throughout evening mass and be shaking going to bed. I was switched to a non religious school shortly afterwards and I remained anxious and in fear of authority for a long time.

Childhood was misery for so many. So sad to read this. All the adults were more or less on the same page. The general idea was that children’s spirit needed to be broken through brutalisation. Your wetting yourself was yet another act of rebellion on your behalf.
This wasn’t just an Irish thing though .

dashcamdanny

splinter65 wrote: »

Childhood was misery for so many. So sad to read this. All the adults were more or less on the same page. The general idea was that children’s spirit needed to be broken through brutalisation. Your wetting yourself was yet another act of rebellion on your behalf.
This wasn’t just an Irish thing though .

Strange mindset for parents to allow it.
I confronted my mother over it and she was so upset she stayed in bed crying for 2 days. I asked her how she could let a teacher beat me on a daily basis.

All I can say is if any adult layed one finger on my child, I would not be able to contain my fury.

But times are different. Back then it was "sure it will do them no harm" . Or "never did us any harm".

idnkph

Putinbot wrote:

All teachers were exempted from prosecution and being sued in 1983 when corporal punishment was banned. A friend tried to do the same and his solicitor told him it wouldn't get to court even

What of it was after 1983? My old principal gave me an awful hiding in 1987 but the ban was from 1983?? I'm not the only one who got on the receiving end of his brutallity.
And all I did to deserve the beating was being pushed out of line.
He is long since dead but could the christian brothers school be held responsible?

.......

This post has been deleted.

.......

This post has been deleted.

splinter65

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Strange mindset for parents to allow it.
I confronted my mother over it and she was so upset she stayed in bed crying for 2 days. I asked her how she could let a teacher beat me on a daily basis.

All I can say is if any adult layed one finger on my child, I would not be able to contain my fury.

But times are different. Back then it was "sure it will do them no harm" . Or "never did us any harm".

Different time different planet. I don’t agree with condemning parents from that era for how they raised their families. In 50 years from now people will be condemning how we are raising our kids too....

splinter65

....... wrote: »

The weirdest thing for me was that both my parents had been beaten, my father in Christian Brothers and extremely badly too (he was left handed naturally but beaten into writing right handed) and my mother in a convent school - yet they still chose to send us to schools run by religious orders knowing we would be beaten too.

Your parents were conforming to the mindset of the time. They felt that they had survived and benefited from a harsh regime and they wanted you to have the same advantage. I know it seems ludicrous but you simply can’t apply today’s beliefs to even as recent as 30 to 40 years ago.
Today’s beliefs will appear ridiculous in 30 to 40 years too.

.......

This post has been deleted.

walshb

dashcamdanny wrote: »

But times are different. Back then it was "sure it will do them no harm" . Or "never did us any harm".

I cannot fooking stand that pathetic "argument" you hear....

It's real simple: Depraved sadists is all these people were.

Hitman3000

splinter65 wrote:

Different time different planet. I don’t agree with condemning parents from that era for how they raised their families. In 50 years from now people will be condemning how we are raising our kids too....

Apologies but this is a b.s. comment. Do we write off all past behaviour as just a norm for the times? Abuse no matter the time or era is still f**king abuse.

Squatter

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Do we write off all past behaviour as just a norm for the times?

Whether or not you choose to do so, the simple fact remains that, generally speaking, it was.

Of course accepting that reality doesn't in any way prevent anyone from condemning such behaviours as cruel, sadistic or barbaric.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Hitman3000

Fred Swanson wrote:

Why did the state give these abusers a free pass until 1997?

How many sitting in the Dail would have found themselves sitting in the dock for abusing a pupil?

Neyite

I was beaten in the 80's in primary. It didn't seem so shocking then because lots of the children got whacked by that yellow ruler every day. It was just the norm.

But as an adult I saw that the things they punished us over were essentially their own failings - several of the children who routinely got punished more than the rest would have had learning difficulties or chaotic backgrounds that made doing homework impossible. Which the teachers knew of.

And as an adult if I saw a child getting smacked now, I'd be horrified and be ringing the Gardai. Did anyone see the clip of a french-speaking old priest doing the rounds on facebook today? He seems to be performing a baptism on a toddler and the toddler does not want to go to the priest so the priest smacks him across the face. I don't know how the parents restrained themselves tbh.

Claw Hammer

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It wasn't a crime until 1997. In 1982 the Minister for Education made an executive order which prohibited schools in receipt of state funding from using corporal punishment. That did not criminalise the use of corporal punishment by teachers. It was the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997 which abolished the defence of "reasonable chastisement" for teachers who inflicted corporal punishment.

Claw Hammer

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Historically, writing with the left hand as opposed to the right is justification to strike a child repeatedly ?

It is not the writing with the left hand which was the problem. It was not writing with the right hand when instructed to do so was considered to be disobedience. The punishment was for disobedience.

walshb

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It is not the writing with the left hand which was the problem. It was not arising with the right hand when instructed to do so was considered to be disobedience. The punishment was for disobedience.

Did you think it was warranted/justified ? Just wondering....

Claw Hammer

walshb wrote: »

Did you think it was warranted/justified ? Just wondering....

Not my call.

ConnyMcDavid

Are you sure you can't raise money by other means? Like getting a second job or something?

Claw Hammer

ConnyMcDavid wrote: »

Are you sure you can't raise money by other means? Like getting a second job or something?

What if you already have two jobs?