pedigree cattle

390kid

How's it goin? I've been considering keeping one or two pedigree Angus or Hereford cows along with our sucklers and wondering has any one any advice for me on this or should I just start clear?

charolais0153

390kid wrote: »

How's it goin? I've been considering keeping one or two pedigree Angus or Hereford cows along with our sucklers and wondering has any one any advice for me on this or should I just start clear?

More than likely angus and whiteheads will be going as bulls for dairy lads.they need to be at least 15-16 months in april. If you get a run of heifers one cow can turn into many. Theres no trouble with them and they probably make more money than a commercial cow.

Hard Knocks

390kid wrote: »

How's it goin? I've been considering keeping one or two pedigree Angus or Hereford cows along with our sucklers and wondering has any one any advice for me on this or should I just start clear?

There’s a big extra work with the pedigrees, if you’re willing to put the effort in, could be a good experience.
Do you intend entering local shows?

patsy_mccabe

They were 16,000 pedigree beef bulls born in 2016 in Ireland. Of these only 8,600 were sold to other herds for breeding. Sobering numbrers.

charolais0153

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

They were 16,000 pedigree bulls born in 2016 in Ireland. Of these only 8,600 were sold to other herds for breeding. Sobering numbrers.

Too many? Does that include dairy bulls

patsy_mccabe

charolais0153 wrote: »

Too many? Does that include dairy bulls

Beef bulls. Quoting Doreen Corridan in this week's journal. Machinery supplement page 60.

Mooooo

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Beef bulls. Quoting Doreen Corridan in this week's journal. Machinery supplement page 60.

A woman that generally calls things as they are too

Hard Knocks

Mooooo wrote: »

A woman that generally calls things as they are too

Is it the stars or surplus to requirements

Bellview

patsy_mccabe wrote:

They were 16,000 pedigree beef bulls born in 2016 in Ireland. Of these only 8,600 were sold to other herds for breeding. Sobering numbrers.

Assume they are icbf numbers. The piece of data everyone forgets is that farmers don't always complete their births..especially dairy lads who write down calf off a aa and font mention the bull.

Bellview

390kid wrote:

How's it goin? I've been considering keeping one or two pedigree Angus or Hereford cows along with our sucklers and wondering has any one any advice for me on this or should I just start clear?

On angus dairy is main customer need relatively strong bulls as most dairy lads now have 30 or 40 heifers for he bull...there is a good export market for females and you can move them on at 12 months if you don't want to breed them on. My personal opinion stay away from myostatin in breeding ie Goulding man o man of Westellan Diego being 2 of the sires..also any breeding with Abberton in background may have this gene. Also stay away from kya they are nutters.
Pm me if you want to have a view of herd some day as seeing a few herds also helps.

390kid

Hard Knocks wrote: »

There’s a big extra work with the pedigrees, if you’re willing to put the effort in, could be a good experience.
Do you intend entering local shows?

No entering the shows wasn't the intention but maybe it might have to be done if you wanted to build a reputation for a herd?

390kid

Bellview wrote: »

On angus dairy is main customer need relatively strong bulls as most dairy lads now have 30 or 40 heifers for he bull...there is a good export market for females and you can move them on at 12 months if you don't want to breed them on. My personal opinion stay away from myostatin in breeding ie Goulding man o man of Westellan Diego being 2 of the sires..also any breeding with Abberton in background may have this gene. Also stay away from kya they are nutters.
Pm me if you want to have a view of herd some day as seeing a few herds also helps.

What is the myostatin? Thanks Il keep that in mind

Bellview

390kid wrote:

What is the myostatin? Thanks Il keep that in mind

Double muscle gene and harder calved. A number of the show boys are using it in their herd so they look like Belgian blues.
The boys that use it claim it's no harder calving but Goulding man o man was used in Teagasc research last year and his calving is now closer to 5 per cent...plus a lot of holsteins markings on half bred. Markings can be a problem in some of UK bloodlines also like cattle with Peter Pershore in background

FeelTheBern

390kid wrote: »

How's it goin? I've been considering keeping one or two pedigree Angus or Hereford cows along with our sucklers and wondering has any one any advice for me on this or should I just start clear?

My advice would be not to bother unless you're prepared to put a lot of time and energy into them. If you're autumn calving might be easier manage cos you can AI in shed but my experience with spring calvers is that too much hassle to try to keep them separate and AI them with calves at foot - so despite best intentions you let them off with stock bull who prob won't have stars and saleability of AI. Then of course you need to give them better do for sale etc which takes more individual treatment and time. Also if you do decide to keep a stock bull off one of them, you'll have heifers and cows you can't use him with so more hassle.

Of course I was told all this and still did it but there you are!!!

The way Euro star ratings are shooting up in AI, I think a lot of stock are going to be left behind as need to be in top 40% to be 4 star for example.

Bellview

FeelTheBern wrote:

The way Euro star ratings are shooting up in AI, I think a lot of stock are going to be left behind as need to be in top 40% to be 4 star for example.

That's a good point but stars only come into play if in genomic scheme .. if selling angus bull to dairy boys it's all about the calving difficulty for them

390kid

Bellview wrote: »

Double muscle gene and harder calved. A number of the show boys are using it in their herd so they look like Belgian blues.
The boys that use it claim it's no harder calving but Goulding man o man was used in Teagasc research last year and his calving is now closer to 5 per cent...plus a lot of holsteins markings on half bred. Markings can be a problem in some of UK bloodlines also like cattle with Peter Pershore in background

Thanks for that I never knew that. 5.% seems very high for a Angus. Regarding markings we have a lot of grey and whiteish calves off our Angus bull and im positive pershore is in the back breeding some where

390kid

FeelTheBern wrote: »

My advice would be not to bother unless you're prepared to put a lot of time and energy into them. If you're autumn calving might be easier manage cos you can AI in shed but my experience with spring calvers is that too much hassle to try to keep them separate and AI them with calves at foot - so despite best intentions you let them off with stock bull who prob won't have stars and saleability of AI. Then of course you need to give them better do for sale etc which takes more individual treatment and time. Also if you do decide to keep a stock bull off one of them, you'll have heifers and cows you can't use him with so more hassle.

Of course I was told all this and still did it but there you are!!!

The way Euro star ratings are shooting up in AI, I think a lot of stock are going to be left behind as need to be in top 40% to be 4 star for example.

A few have told me this to😅. The euro stars are playing a big part in the value of these animals alright

wiggy123

keep away from peter pereshore breeding, go for good female line.. its enjoyable none profitable game--the pedigree one! well for me anyway--only a hobby though..

patsy_mccabe

A hobby is right. Don't be fooled by the high prices paid at these special sales either. I was at a high profile sale recently. Guy beside me was bidding like crazy on a number of lots. Don't think he bought anything.
Later at home I was googling the herd and came across some pics from different sales. Low and behold, there's yer man in the background talking to a guy that is closely related to the herd. Now, make what you will of that.

wiggy123

happens a lot... you buy of me this year/sale I do same the following year--money never changes hands like

Bellview

390kid wrote:

Thanks for that I never knew that. 5.% seems very high for a Angus. Regarding markings we have a lot of grey and whiteish calves off our Angus bull and im positive pershore is in the back breeding some where

Only for dairy lads. They are looking for 2 per cent or lower.. need also be careful as too much easy breeding in the bull and he won't be big enough to do any job.

charolais0153

Have used a lot of cyi and mlj. Great bulls for the job

wiggy123

cyi to me-hit+miss... mlj doing gd job, nice type of angus he breeds

charolais0153

wiggy123 wrote: »

cyi to me-hit+miss... mlj doing gd job, nice type of angus he breeds

Ya i suppose. Got a really good bull one time but the heifer we have npw isnt as good for sure but the cow dossnt need to be too big

visatorro

Pedigree job is a funny one in all breeds. Was at a dairy dispersal from a pedigree herd recently. Top price paid was buy a man buying his own cow back. Lovely cow fair enough but if you're not in the inner you won't get good money. Fella I know has pure bred limos, he said the last couple of years he just finishes them and he's as far on.

Ai is better but not practical in alot of places so there is demand for bulls but lads don't want to pay 3-4k mark for top quality either

Limestone Cowboy

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

A hobby is right. Don't be fooled by the high prices paid at these special sales either. I was at a high profile sale recently. Guy beside me was bidding like crazy on a number of lots. Don't think he bought anything.
Later at home I was googling the herd and came across some pics from different sales. Low and behold, there's yer man in the background talking to a guy that is closely related to the herd. Now, make what you will of that.

If that was the big dispersal sale a few months ago I can confirm your suspicions.

patsy_mccabe

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

If that was the big dispersal sale a few months ago I can confirm your suspicions.

No, a more recent one, but I heard from 2 different breeders that it was going on at that sale too.

Bellview

patsy_mccabe wrote:

No, a more recent one, but I heard from 2 different breeders that it was going on at that sale too.

Where lads selling stock with their own auctioneer I would never trust as they can play a lot of games..as usual a few messers gives more honest sales a bad name..bit like the show boys who play with dates and pull in a dairy cow to help a calf along

squinn2912

That sort of gangsterism happens in nearly every ring in the country. Lads bidding but not buying or lads Lyin on cattlebto keep the price low. Sickening.
Funny I was talking to a neighbor who keeps ped Charolais stock and he said this might be his last year bothering with it. People want them at beef price and the market is saturated. I’d imagine a very hard game to get into

Bellview

Yes can be tough game. A huge increase in angus over get past few years. The only saving grace on angus side is the export of females...just would be great if more guys moved them on abroad as some lads still retaining too many poor ones...and I know lads that are keeping rubbish because they are 5 stars...so rubbish breeds more rubbish and impacts bull prices as the low price becomes the benchmark

squinn2912

I like Angus and HE but I think you get rinced out in a mart with them. Very tempted to get an angus bull for our replacements to see how they'd work bringing through more replacements and on to beef with bulls. If I was going to go into peds then I think it would be more to breed a bull to keep and have it small. Even at that it would be for entertainment as it would be as cost effective to buy from an experienced breeder. Where do the angus exports go usually?

wiggy123

as said bellview--country is awash with angus at mo.. doesn't help the breed/price

wiggy123

exports going to Portugal/eastern European countries.. demand there-taking the poorer stock away--which is good for the breed in long run

Bellview

squinn2912 wrote:

I like Angus and HE but I think you get rinced out in a mart with them. Very tempted to get an angus bull for our replacements to see how they'd work bringing through more replacements and on to beef with bulls. If I was going to go into peds then I think it would be more to breed a bull to keep and have it small. Even at that it would be for entertainment as it would be as cost effective to buy from an experienced breeder. Where do the angus exports go usually?

Spain also a big market about 4000 pedigree gone there over the past number of years.
The Portugal folks are buying more in Scotland now and Denmark for reds as in fairness the Danes have the best reds

patsy_mccabe

I think ICBF has hit the big name herds hard. It's now possible to go out and buy a 4 or 5 star heifer and breed away to a 5 star AI bull. It's that easy to get into the game. Advertise away then on Donedeal and once you're not asking for stupid money, you can still make a margin. That's what I did. No halter training or heavy meal feeding. Buyers couldnt care less about halters. Some don't want to even see the cow they are out of. I genotype all I sell, so I can stand over the breeding.
I've seen guys selling bulls at Limousin premier sales and only getting €2,500 in the ring. Outside then when guys try to buy from them, they want €3,500.

wiggy123

agree patsy! I have small hobby herd of angus's here! all are sold via word of mouth or repeat customers! making money on them-who knows, when take time in to it :-)

Bellview

Patsy will limo move away from whrp for sales as a good friend of mine reckons that it made limo sales more an inner circle.
I generally halter everything thats leave the yard as the benefit is generally the bull is more docile...now I would not have them at a standard but they would feck around with you. Saying that last 2 stock bulls I had they broke after being tied up 3 times in crush...I had a kya this year and only word for him is a lunatic and ironically munster are only selling his semen to pedigree breeders and half of KYA are lunatics

wiggy123

hear that KYA's are hot--and his sire-CTE was quiet stock

Bellview

wiggy123 wrote:

hear that KYA's are hot--and his sire-CTE was quiet stock

I heard recently that kya himself was a complete nut job . .a few other angus bulls in munster also have bad tempers

squinn2912

Funny I’ve always considered the angus to be very highly strung and flighty. When heifers are lookin the bull they tend to be very excitable.

Cattlepen

wiggy123 wrote: »

as said bellview--country is awash with angus at mo.. doesn't help the breed/price

Very true. Coming down with them. That’s why i’m Giving it up. That and dairy men ringing looking for a bull for €12-1300 . Less than beef price. Pain in me hoola hoop with it

Bellview

squinn2912 wrote:

Funny I’ve always considered the angus to be very highly strung and flighty. When heifers are lookin the bull they tend to be very excitable.

I would mostly have opposite experience but if you think about it kya is most used angud bull in munster so a lot of them around be Goulding jumbo King's are also flighty as I have seen some of them misbehave at sales as jumpy out.
As I said earlier I normally break everything and generally with little effort...but last 2 bulls were really sober lads and our cows are sober too so makes it easy...if ever I have something flighty they leave the yard asap

Bellview

Cattlepen wrote:

Very true. Coming down with them. That’s why i’m Giving it up. That and dairy men ringing looking for a bull for €12-1300 . Less than beef price. Pain in me hoola hoop with it

The dealers have been like vultures too this year as setting up sales and selling absolute ****e and the price became the baseline for good stock

whelan2

Cattlepen wrote: »

Very true. Coming down with them. That’s why i’m Giving it up. That and dairy men ringing looking for a bull for €12-1300 . Less than beef price. Pain in me hoola hoop with it

Used to get that, now I just say if you dont buy him some one else will, I dont have time for time wasters.

squinn2912

Bellview wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote:

Funny I’ve always considered the angus to be very highly strung and flighty. When heifers are lookin the bull they tend to be very excitable.

I would mostly have opposite experience but if you think about it kya is most used angud bull in munster so a lot of them around be Goulding jumbo King's are also flighty as I have seen some of them misbehave at sales as jumpy out.
As I said earlier I normally break everything and generally with little effort...but last 2 bulls were really sober lads and our cows are sober too so makes it easy...if ever I have something flighty they leave the yard asap

Yea the only thing forbthem. We do the same thing. In fairness I don’t use angus for our own heifers so the last few have been drop calves from fr breeding abs that might explain the giddiness too

bogman_bass

Bellview wrote: »

wiggy123 wrote:

hear that KYA's are hot--and his sire-CTE was quiet stock

I heard recently that kya himself was a complete nut job . .a few other angus bulls in munster also have bad tempers

He wasn’t bad at all.

bogman_bass

Would you consider one of the smaller breeds like Parthenaise or aubrac? You have a chance of getting near the top where as if you go with the more popular breeds you are talking 5 figures to get the best of cows

Bellview

bogman_bass wrote:

Would you consider one of the smaller breeds like Parthenaise or aubrac? You have a chance of getting near the top where as if you go with the more popular breeds you are talking 5 figures to get the best of cows

Assume you are thinking about shows..you can do middle of the road for a lot less than 5 figures...generally lads paying 5 figures for stock have more money than sense.
The best angus heifer on the munster show circuit is a home bred heifer and she easily beat a 20k one in clon 10 days ago

charolais0153

Bellview wrote: »

Assume you are thinking about shows..you can do middle of the road for a lot less than 5 figures...generally lads paying 5 figures for stock have more money than sense.
The best angus heifer on the munster show circuit is a home bred heifer and she easily beat a 20k one in clon 10 days ago

Nobody going to sell their best heifer though. Perhaps you could sell if you got a few rounds of embryos out of her but then thats more cost

wiggy123

agree re angus's.. can be flighty, have a hfr in heat today--trying to leave the field :-)

squinn2912

Yea that;s the nonsense I'm talking about. I prefer the hereford but the sub isn't much good and the boys in the marts don't like them. That's a bit of a generalization though because like the angus there's a lot of herefords going back to dairy breeding and those narrow looking creatures are likely the ones getting poor mart reviews. If you have one with a bit of breeding and a decent end he'll do ok. I think they rear good calves too. Still wouldn't try going into peds though!