Proved I'm a student... but still being fined?!

fxotoole

idnkph wrote: »

I would say in your appeal that you were misled by the inspector and what he advised and led you to believe different and feel conned into the fine. Just to see what they come back with.

Also in th appeal, explicitly state that you had no intention to defraud Irish Rail

magicbastarder

devnull wrote: »

- Tara submits pass and gets off fine and hands it back to Mary to use and cycle repeats.

Now I know that photos mean that this is unlikely to happen, but I've known people who look similar who are all sharing a pass in this way and honestly a lot of the inspectors don't exactly check the photos in any detail anyway.

as i mentioned, a paperwork fee rather than the full standard fare would go some way closing this gap. it could be escalating too for the genuine holder, with a threat of revocation of the card they were caught too many times without it, and instant standard fare or revocation if caught being used by someone not entitled to use it.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And who keeps their student ID in their pencil case? You Get a grown up wallet, and use it to carry the stuff you should be carrying.

I did as a (very) mature student! I didn’t need it for anything else so thought it the logical place to keep it. OP did say that they normally drove.

devnull

magicbastarder wrote: »

as i mentioned, a paperwork fee rather than the full standard fare would go some way closing this gap. it could be escalating too for the genuine holder, with a threat of revocation of the card they were caught too many times without it, and instant standard fare or revocation if caught being used by someone not entitled to use it.

Any reduction of the deterrent of a standard fare to have lower bands will increase the number of people who try to evade. The less it is, the more worth the while it would be for evaders to evade since even if they get caught a few times, they'd still probably be quids in at the end of the year.

In my opinion if someone is found sharing a pass the pass should instantly be disabled, on the basis that the pass holder transferred the ticket which is against the by laws and the receiver travelled without a valid ticket so should be fined.

Vic_08

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's wonderful that we have a system which deals with the following three scenarios in essentially the same way:
1) i bunk onto public transport in the hope that a ticket inspector won't show and i'll get to travel for free
2) i make a genuine mistake and travel on public transport without having paid for my ticket, but without the intention to do so
3) i make a genuine mistake and travel on public transport, being entitled to the ticket i have, but have forgotten supporting documentation.

granted, the differences between 1 and 2 are never going to be easy to distinguish; but why can't there be a system where a proven genuine mistake (as in a card which pre-existed the 'offence') is dealt with with what - for the sake of convenience - i'll call a 'ticket inspection fee'. say €10 or €15.

TL;DR - the system treats 'not paying for your ticket' and 'paying for your ticket but not having the paperwork' the same. this is nuts.

If it weren't for the sheer number of people in category 1 who when challenged pretend to be 2 then there would be less of a need to be inflexible on everyone without correct tickets/documentation.

While I do agree that it seems harsh to fine someone who has left their ID behind similarly to a full evader the reality is that the rules are it is not good enough to own the correct documents, they MUST be presented when travelling.

This is not an arbitrary rule, it is the only way to police ticketing effectively. If it was known that nobody would be stopped from using discounted tickets bar the numbers doing so without correct ID would skyrocket.

As it is "students" in particular travelling without correct ID are a big issue. I drove express bus routes for years and on Friday/Sunday in particular the numbers asking for student tickets or presenting pre-bought tickets who didn't have ID was easily 1 out of 4. It was a massive pain in the arse dealing with these people, not only was it aggro I didn't need it caused delays too.

magicbastarder wrote: »

as i mentioned, a paperwork fee rather than the full standard fare would go some way closing this gap. it could be escalating too for the genuine holder, with a threat of revocation of the card they were caught too many times without it, and instant standard fare or revocation if caught being used by someone not entitled to use it.

It's all well and good allowing this leeway but public transport is MASS transport, providing this resource to thousands of individuals after the fact is gong to be labour and resource intensive and that is before you count all the intentional fare dodgers who will use this to get a lower fare than they are entitled to.

It is simply impractical to allow the sort of system you want where a team of staff are on hand to process all "honest mistake mate" passengers after the fact, particularly in Ireland where state ID cards are not compulsory and getting genuine name/address details from people is difficult and time consuming.

The first line of defence of scumbags is lying about who they are and in all the time I spent challenging people attempting to fare dodge (mainly Free Travel based but also student, child and other discount tickets) the standard response to a request to provide ANY identifying items was "I have none".

I have sympathy for the genuine cases and I have given people benefit of the doubt myself on occasion but the fact is there is a responsibility on people to provide the correct travel documentation when they travel.

In this case it appears the €100 fine has been discounted to €50 anyway. You say that an administration fee is acceptable, considering all the costs of staff (including the initial revenue checker), administration and overheads €50 is probably a reasonable cost for the personal service given over to deal with this.

EdgeCase

The solution is quite simple, get a private bus in future. Irish Rail are inflexible and uncaring and don't tolerate human errors made by customers.

The OP sent in an appeal which was rejected, despite all the supporting evidence being there.

prinzeugen

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's wonderful that we have a system which deals with the following three scenarios in essentially the same way:
1) i bunk onto public transport in the hope that a ticket inspector won't show and i'll get to travel for free
2) i make a genuine mistake and travel on public transport without having paid for my ticket, but without the intention to do so
3) i make a genuine mistake and travel on public transport, being entitled to the ticket i have, but have forgotten supporting documentation.

granted, the differences between 1 and 2 are never going to be easy to distinguish; but why can't there be a system where a proven genuine mistake (as in a card which pre-existed the 'offence') is dealt with with what - for the sake of convenience - i'll call a 'ticket inspection fee'. say €10 or €15.

TL;DR - the system treats 'not paying for your ticket' and 'paying for your ticket but not having the paperwork' the same. this is nuts.

I once had a British Rail staff free travel card. I lost it on more than one occasion so made myself known to the booking clerk and they sorted temporary tickets to get me home. If I had tried to travel without it, I would have been thrown off the train at the next station.

If the OP knew they had forgotten the student card, they could have explained it BEFORE they boarded the train.

At the end of the day, the OP did not have a valid ticket as it was not supported by a Student ID.

Another example of someone expecting someone else to take responsibility for "Human Errors"!

Put the phone/tablet down and pay attention to what you are doing and you will not get fined! Simple!

NinetyTwoTeam

bk wrote: »

I'd say if the OP seriously was considering going to court, then first of all seek professional legal advice.

Any time you think you might want to go to court, you should always seek professional legal advice first.

You might win a court case, but the gamble your taking is that you will lose and be fined up to €1,000 + legal costs + most worryingly a criminal conviction (which might hamper future work prospects, visa's to the US, etc.).

I'd say it would not be a gamble worth taking over €50. And of course if you seek legal advice (as you should), then it would cost a lot more then €50.

Best to just pay up and take it as a lesson learned.

omg what a hysterical overreaction. I'm willing to guess you've never taken any 'gamble' or actually been to court. you are seriously telling OP she'll be banned from the US? it's not anywhere near something that would affect oversease travel!

OP listen to sugarman. you don't need a solicitor for this, just let it go to court. the judge will dismiss it as fast as he can to get through to something else, like an actual case. a student who paid the proper fare but couldn't find their ID, you'll look like an absolute angel compared to what they usually deal with. especially since you emailed the ID.

this site has a portion of posters who believe we should have the death penalty for leaving toast crumbs in the butter and they love to jump down the throats of people who aren't completely precise, orderly and error free in all their affairs. we can only assume they are perfect. but i doubt that, unless perfection makes you into a total misery guts.

RacoonQueen

EdgeCase wrote: »

The solution is quite simple, get a private bus in future. Irish Rail are inflexible and uncaring and don't tolerate human errors made by customers.

The OP sent in an appeal which was rejected, despite all the supporting evidence being there.

Yeah, sounds like Irish Rail are being very inflexible. Fines can always be appealed as sometimes people just make mistakes. No on is perfect.

I've a colleague who was caught on Luas for no ticket...has a tax saver and reason he didn't have it with him that day was because he'd been out the night before and moved the ticket from his normal go to work jacket to his going out jacket. Ticket inspector told him to just send in an appeal. Was no problem they cancelled the fine.

Pretty bad form by Irish Rail IMO.

Hilly Bill

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

omg what a hysterical overreaction. I'm willing to guess you've never taken any 'gamble' or actually been to court. you are seriously telling OP she'll be banned from the US? it's not anywhere near something that would affect oversease travel!

OP listen to sugarman. you don't need a solicitor for this, just let it go to court. the judge will dismiss it as fast as he can to get through to something else, like an actual case. a student who paid the proper fare but couldn't find their ID, you'll look like an absolute angel compared to what they usually deal with. especially since you emailed the ID.

this site has a portion of posters who believe we should have the death penalty for leaving toast crumbs in the butter and they love to jump down the throats of people who aren't completely precise, orderly and error free in all their affairs. we can only assume they are perfect. but i doubt that, unless perfection makes you into a total misery guts.

It seems its full of legal experts as well.

Isambard

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Yeah, sounds like Irish Rail are being very inflexible. Fines can always be appealed as sometimes people just make mistakes. No on is perfect.

I've a colleague who was caught on Luas for no ticket...has a tax saver and reason he didn't have it with him that day was because he'd been out the night before and moved the ticket from his normal go to work jacket to his going out jacket. Ticket inspector told him to just send in an appeal. Was no problem they cancelled the fine.

Pretty bad form by Irish Rail IMO.

That's a different situation, where only the ticket is required and he/she forgot it.The ticket was always valid, just forgotten.

Having a student rate ticket is conditional on having and carrying the id. No id=ticket not valid.

BloodBath

Simple solution. Don't pay the fine and don't use Irish rail again. Do you really think they will hound you down and take you to court over a €50 fine. Not a bloody chance.

Hilly Bill

BloodBath wrote: »

Simple solution. Don't pay the fine and don't use Irish rail again. Do you really think they will hound you down and take you to court over a €50 fine. Not a bloody chance.

Yes they will.

fxotoole

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Yeah, sounds like Irish Rail are being very inflexible. Fines can always be appealed as sometimes people just make mistakes. No on is perfect.

I've a colleague who was caught on Luas for no ticket...has a tax saver and reason he didn't have it with him that day was because he'd been out the night before and moved the ticket from his normal go to work jacket to his going out jacket. Ticket inspector told him to just send in an appeal. Was no problem they cancelled the fine.

Pretty bad form by Irish Rail IMO.

In Irish Rail's defence, something similar once happened my wife. She had a Tax saver annual ticket, which she didn't realise she forgot to bring with her on her way into work one morning. Ticket inspector asked her to see her ticket and it was at that point she realised she had left it at home. She was fined but she appealed, and in her appeal provided a scanned copy of her annual ticket. Irish Rail cancelled the fine.

Grolschevik

fxotoole wrote: »

In Irish Rail's defence, something similar once happened my wife. She had a Tax saver annual ticket, which she didn't realise she forgot to bring with her on her way into work one morning. Ticket inspector asked her to see her ticket and it was at that point she realised she had left it at home. She was fined but she appealed, and in her appeal provided a scanned copy of her annual ticket. Irish Rail cancelled the fine.

Mine too, a couple of times.

Isambard

yes but again they had valid tickets, a student ticket without the id is not a valid ticket.

bk

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

omg what a hysterical overreaction. I'm willing to guess you've never taken any 'gamble' or actually been to court. you are seriously telling OP she'll be banned from the US? it's not anywhere near something that would affect oversease travel!

And this just goes to show that you should be very careful taking advice (yes including mine) from people off the internet.

Yes, it is right there in the legislation in black and white that a judge can charge you with a criminal offence if you don't pay. If you do end up with a criminal offence for anything, it is a mark against you when applying for visas.

I agree that a judge is unlikely to do so in this case, but the problem is you never really know and it is a gamble. Yours could be the 30'th case the judge has heard that day, is fed up and wondering why this idiot is standing in front of them over a €50 fine and decides to throw the book at them.

A general good rule of thumb for life is try and keep the hell out of court. It is almost always best avoided.

Isambard

now that's good advice. Judges can do anything really, and it would cost you a lot of money to get it overturned on appeal, if you even can.

RacoonQueen

Isambard wrote: »

yes but again they had valid tickets, a student ticket without the id is not a valid ticket.

But they didn't have valid tickets with them.

If the OP had not produced the student ticket and had then appealed with the ticket and student card, would that get them off?